Super Smash Bros Wii U & 3DS Thread 4: New Year, Old Arguments

If he's gonna bring back the same pokemon, at least evolve Squirtle into Blastoise and replace Ivysaur with something.
And change Charizard into Mega Charizard X or whatever it's called.
 
Jaeger said:
Why?

I don''t think they will go with that many Gen 1 reps (other than Lucario). He's not a Smash staple, so they could easily swap him and/or his Pokemon out for 3 others, or not at all.
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when you say pokemon trainer it is a general all purpose name to refer to all 6 gens of trainers including the girls, you should have specifically brought up red not just pkmn trainer. its possible his pokemon might get replaced.
 
Pokémon Trainer is a unique concept and removing him doesn't make any sense. And replacing his Pokémon with Kalos starters are stupid because it would look dumb once the next Pokémon games are out. He didn't use Sinnoh starters in Brawl.
 
In my mind the only reason that Pokemon Trainer could be cut is if the 3DS can't handle him. Switching between three characters might be tricky on the little console, especially since Brawl had enough issues with loading up new character mid-battle.

And if he does return, I think it's safe to assume that he'll still have his three Kanto Pokemon, unfortunately. They're relevant again through XY and he could easily use one of the Mega Charizards as his Final Smash.

Honestly, though, I have to wonder if he is going to be cut because of hardware limitations... if they wanted to reveal a second Pokemon character wouldn't it make more sense to reveal Pokemon Trainer instead of Lucario?
 
Jaeger said:
Why?

I don''t think they will go with that many Gen 1 reps (other than Lucario). He's not a Smash staple, so they could easily swap him and/or his Pokemon out for 3 others, or not at all.
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Red and his starters are among the most recognizable characters in video game history. Sakurai felt so strongly about the concept that he put three times as much effort into the character(s) than anyone else in Brawl -- he designed three original move sets for a single character, and he went through the trial and error of getting a new mechanic to work in the Smash Bros. environment. Pokémon Trainer's also one of the few newcomers featured on Brawl's box art. He's nowhere near expendable, and replacing three original Pokémon with three new original Pokémon isn't "easy."

The most important thing to realize is that despite four generations of Pokémon games existing while making Brawl, Sakurai still went with the original starters. He could have gone with the Gold/Silver trainer, Ruby/Sapphire trainer, or Diamond/Pearl trainer, but no -- he went with the original. He was the most iconic/popular back then, and he's still the most iconic/popular now.
 
Guys. Come on.

The Lucario reveal was more or less Sakurai's way of saying "Stop thinking we're cutting characters willy nilly."

Red will be back with the same Pokemon. Ike will be back. Lucas will be back. For the love of god how many of these "potential cut characters" have to be revealed before one realizes that cuts don't just freaking happen.
 
Pokemon Trainer's Pokemon are very iconic, especially Charizard. I don't think they'll cut Charizard in favor of Kalos starters which are likely to stay relevant for only one generation. Gen 1 starters are much more recognizable.
 
That's what I should also mention, you guys do realize how much Sakurai likes 'unique' characters, right? Its why characters like Game & Watch and Ice Climbers keep on showing back up despite the fact they're hardly relevant. Do you honestly believe that Sakurai would remove Pokemon Trainer when Pokemon is not only popular right now, but the 'character' has a unique play style? Now if he'll have the same Pokemon or not is debatable, but hell in the no.

I actually kind of hope they keep the gen 1 Pokemon, but add another 3 Pokemon. As Pokemon Trainers can have six active Pokemon. Come on, what kind of Pokemon Trainer only holds 3?
 
GiantBreadbug said:
Guys. Come on.

The Lucario reveal was more or less Sakurai's way of saying "Stop thinking we're cutting characters willy nilly."

Red will be back with the same Pokemon. Ike will be back. Lucas will be back. For the love of god how many of these "potential cut characters" have to be revealed before one realizes that cuts don't just freaking happen.
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My thoughts exactly. If Lucario is back, everyone is back.

Only exception may be Snake, since there may be some weird stuff behind the scenes regarding third party characters. But I'm still leaning towards yes, Snake will return.
 
Dusk Golem said:
That's what I should also mention, you guys do realize how much Sakurai likes 'unique' characters, right? Its why characters like Game & Watch and Ice Climbers keep on showing back up despite the fact they're hardly relevant. Do you honestly believe that Sakurai would remove Pokemon Trainer when Pokemon is not only popular right now, but the 'character' has a unique play style? Now if he'll have the same Pokemon or not is debatable, but hell in the no.

I actually kind of hope they keep the gen 1 Pokemon, but add another 3 Pokemon. As Pokemon Trainers can have six active Pokemon. Come on, what kind of Pokemon Trainer only holds 3?
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Switching between 6 Pokemon in Smash would be an incredible pain to be honest. 3 alone is already kind of time consuming in a game like that
 
GiantBreadbug said:
Guys. Come on.

The Lucario reveal was more or less Sakurai's way of saying "Stop thinking we're cutting characters willy nilly."

Red will be back with the same Pokemon. Ike will be back. Lucas will be back. For the love of god how many of these "potential cut characters" have to be revealed before one realizes that cuts don't just freaking happen.
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I think cuts will happen, but hardly. I expect maybe a few characters to be cut, but I also believe it'll be on the smaller scale, or some characters will be replaced (like Ike replaced Roy, Lucario replaced MewTwo, etc).
 
C.Olimar788 said:
Honestly, though, I have to wonder if he is going to be cut because of hardware limitations... if they wanted to reveal a second Pokemon character wouldn't it make more sense to reveal Pokemon Trainer instead of Lucario?
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February 27 -- the 18th anniversary of Pokémon Red/Green. Believe.
 
Once again, Lucario did not replaced Mewtwo. The Aura Sphere is already his signature attack and Mewtwo was planned to be in Brawl.
 
qq more said:
Once again, Lucario did not replaced Mewtwo. The Aura Sphere is already his signature attack and Mewtwo was planned to be in Brawl.
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Yes, as was Roy, and Dixie Kong, but cuts happen in games all the time, and while this is true that the Aura Blast is a signature of Lucario, when you make cuts in a game you consider what is cuttable and what isn't, and these characters were likely decided to be cut as they were similar to other characters already on the roster.
 
GiantBreadbug said:
Guys. Come on.

The Lucario reveal was more or less Sakurai's way of saying "Stop thinking we're cutting characters willy nilly."

Red will be back with the same Pokemon. Ike will be back. Lucas will be back. For the love of god how many of these "potential cut characters" have to be revealed before one realizes that cuts don't just freaking happen.
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Sakurai already said they don't have enough time to bring back all the characters. Not sure if we should believe him, but there's that.
 
Dusk Golem said:
Yes, as was Roy, and Dixie Kong, but cuts happen in games all the time, and while this is true that the Aura Blast is a signature of Lucario, when you make cuts in a game you consider what is cuttable and what isn't, and these characters were likely decided to be cut as they were similar to other characters already on the roster.
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Then explain why we have Lucas, Wolf and Toon Link?
 
Nintendoga said:
Man I don't even know which one is which.
The awesome looking one that fought Mewtwo in Origins. That's the one I want
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And I want a Black Tyranitar. A Pokemon that can't ever be controlled and is supposed to be really powerful.

The Zard you speak of is X. Black Charizard that focuses on physical attacks and has blue flame.
 
Dusk Golem said:
Yes, as was Roy, and Dixie Kong, but cuts happen in games all the time, and while this is true that the Aura Blast is a signature of Lucario, when you make cuts in a game you consider what is cuttable and what isn't, and these characters were likely decided to be cut as they were similar to other characters already on the roster.
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Or maybe they just didn't have time to finish Mewtwo, & finishing Sonic would be more beneficial to the game in the long-run.
No pun intended
 
foxuzamaki said:
when you say pokemon trainer it is a general all purpose name to refer to all 6 gens of trainers including the girls, you should have specifically brought up red not just pkmn trainer. its possible his pokemon might get replaced.
Click to expand...

I naturally assumed that when I said a character from Brawl would not return, it would imply to that character specially, and not an overall "no character who is similar would be in it". I don't know why anyone would make a generalization like that, to begin with.

Ryce said:
Red and his starters are among the most recognizable characters in video game history. Sakurai felt so strongly about the concept that he put three times as much effort into the character(s) than anyone else in Brawl -- he designed three original move sets for a single character, and he went through the trial and error of getting a new mechanic to work in the Smash Bros. environment. Pokémon Trainer's also one of the few newcomers featured on Brawl's box art. He's nowhere near expendable, and replacing three original Pokémon with three new original Pokémon isn't "easy."

The most important thing to realize is that despite four generations of Pokémon games existing while making Brawl, Sakurai still went with the original starters. He could have gone with the Gold/Silver trainer, Ruby/Sapphire trainer, or Diamond/Pearl trainer, but no -- he went with the original. He was the most iconic/popular back then, and he's still the most iconic/popular now.
Click to expand...

I understand his significance. That's neither here nor there in why I think this time, with this game, he won't return as is. The reaction this guy gets is as if he has been in it since Smash 64. The Pokemon are more important than Red, and trainers in general.
 
qq more said:
Then explain why we have Lucas, Wolf and Toon Link?
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Obviously as I didn't work on the game, I wouldn't know, and you wouldn't either. It could be anything from the fact that they were almost finished designing them when the cuts were made, personal preference, or simply they had to cut half the clone characters and decided which half to keep and which half to cut.
 
Nintendoga said:
Friendly reminder that real men use items
IVgBnrr.gif
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Fucking awesome, source?
 
Dusk Golem said:
Obviously as I didn't work on the game, I wouldn't know, and you wouldn't either. It could be anything from the fact that they were almost finished designing them when the cuts were made, personal preference, or simply they had to cut half the clone characters and decided which half to keep and which half to cut.
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Another thing I should point out is that Mewtwo and Lucario are completely different characters outside of the sphere move. Samus also charges an energy ball too (which is also very similar!) and that doesn't make Mewtwo/Lucario a clone of her.

Lucario isn't a clone of Mewtwo, honestly.
 
I'm pretty much on board the No-Cuts train, now. If Lucario can make it back, I think everyone in Brawl will. If Snake ends up being cut due to Konami, I can see Sakurai just giving his moveset to a first party character. Maybe someone from Advance Wars.
 
So, some reveal possibilities:

- Thursday, Feb. 13 -- Donkey Kong Country: Tropical Freeze releases in Japan -- Diddy Kong, Dixie Kong, Diddy & Dixie?

- Thursday, Feb. 27 -- The 18th anniversary of Pokémon Red/Green in Japan -- Jigglypuff, Pokémon Trainer (Squirtle / Ivysaur / Charizard), or Mewtwo?

- Friday, March 14 -- Release of Yoshi's New Island in U.S. and Europe (I don't see a Japanese date on Wikipedia) -- Yoshi?

- Friday, March 21 -- One day before two-year anniversary of Kid Icarus Uprising -- Palutena?

What else might make sense in terms of timing?
 
Jaeger said:
I understand his significance. That's neither here nor there in why I think this time, with this game, he won't return as is. The reaction this guy gets is as if he has been in it since Smash 64. The Pokemon are more important than Red, and trainers in general.
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I personally think the Pokémon Trainer (Red in particular) represents the actual Pokémon games better than any individual Pokémon, but hey. He certainly wouldn't have been possible on the N64, and there definitely wasn't enough time or resources to include him in Melee with such a limited roster. Just because he's only appeared in one Smash Bros. game so far doesn't mean he hasn't earned his keep.
 
Neiteio said:
So, some reveal possibilities:

- Friday, March 21 -- One day before two-year anniversary of Kid Icarus Uprising -- Palutena?

What else might make sense in terms of timing?
Click to expand...


TWO YEARS?? Seriously?! Oh man time is going by way too fast.

I think any Newcomer reveals can't be predicted since they will probably coincide with Nintendo Directs and there is absolutely no method to that madness.
 
qq more said:
Another thing I should point out is that Mewtwo and Lucario are completely different characters outside of the sphere move. Samus also charges an energy ball too (which is also very similar!) and that doesn't make Mewtwo/Lucario a clone of her.

Lucario isn't a clone of Mewtwo, honestly.
Click to expand...

I mean more clone-like as in positioning, because I don't disagree, their moves and even movement style is very different, but they also fill in a similar position or role for a game with limited reps. I do think MewTwo will return in this game, partially by fan demand and MewTwo is currently more relevant, but I think he was cut originally was because of Lucario. Of course I don't know this, but it'd be a pretty sound conclusion one could come too.
 
TheLegendOfCap said:
I think any Newcomer reveals can't be predicted since they will probably coincide with Nintendo Directs and there is absolutely no method to that madness.
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True. Maybe Solid Snake around March 21, then -- that's around the time Ground Zeroes comes out. On competing platforms, yes, but hey, Brawl had its share of MGS4 references (Gekkos, etc). Konami would find the cross-promotion amiable to their business.
 
Dusk Golem said:
I mean more clone-like as in positioning, because I don't disagree, their moves and even movement style is very different, but they also fill in a similar position or role for a game with limited reps. I do think MewTwo will return in this game, partially by fan demand and MewTwo is currently more relevant, but I think he was cut originally was because of Lucario. Of course I don't know this, but it'd be a pretty sound conclusion one could come too.
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All signs point to him being cut because of sonic, not lucario.
 
Zalman said:
Sakurai already said they don't have enough time to bring back all the characters. Not sure if we should believe him, but there's that.
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Let's not take quotes out of context:

“I can answer that: no. We don’t have the time to fully recreate every single character who’s been in Smash Bros at this point.”

“Adding new characters is not a simple addition – it’s really multiplication. The amount of work, adding a character is multiplied and becomes bigger and bigger as you go. We can’t because of the amount of work it takes. However, I do believe I understand that each character has its own set of fans out there who really like that character.”

“So we’re not going to cut characters out of the way, we’re going to put in as many characters as we can, we really want to do that, because it’s good for the fans and good for all of us. But in the event that we do have to cut some characters, I’d like to apologise in advance to those fans.”
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So, a few things about this:

A, "fully recreate" is a very specific way to put it, and I'd sooner interpret it as "we can't rebuild from the ground up" as opposed to "can't implement", i.e. people hoping for an all-new Mario moveset when there were perfectly good Brawl assets sitting around were always going to be disappointed.

B, "every single character" is also inclusive of the cuts from Melee, all of which are going to take much more work to get up to par than the Brawl cast, so expect them to return even less than the rest.

C, all of that said, he doesn't want to cut characters, and if they can get to the bottom of their priority list, they will. Seems to mostly be a matter of how quickly they can crank out new art assets for the veterans.
 
Pokemon trainer's starters won't change. If mega evolutions are in smash there are a good chance that we'll see Mega charizard x. Mewtwo(with Y mega) will be the new/returning pokemon rep.

PT,Lucario,Pikachu,Jigglypuff,Mewtwo seems pretty solid for pokemon reps
 
I think the backlash to Mewtwo's removal is what is going to keep the roster from having any cuts. Remember that nobody* liked Mewtwo's in Melee, but as soon as he was cut, there was uproar. I think Sakurai and the team would be very apprehensive about cutting anyone else
 
Jaeger said:
Mario has 5 reps, now. With that said, I'm almost certain Pokemon will, too. I don't think PKMN Trainer will return. At least, not withe Gen 1 Pokemon. And I'm certain Jiggly is a shoe in. OG status.
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Why would Pokemon trainer not return? He's the single best representative of the series in the game.
 
Jagsrock said:
Pokemon trainer's starters won't change. If mega evolutions are in smash there are a good chance that we'll see Mega charizard x. Mewtwo(with Y mega) will be the new/returning pokemon rep.

PT,Lucario,Pikachu,Jigglypuff,Mewtwo seems pretty solid for pokemon reps
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This makes most sense to me.

Mega Mewtwo Y had a dedicated movie (the next movie, with X, shares the spotlight with other Megas). He represents Pokémon Y.

Mega Charizard X was promoted in the anime special and could be Pokémon Trainer's new Final Smash (instead of Triple Finish). He represents Pokémon X.

Lucario, meanwhile, has his one Mega Evolution that all XY players receive during the course of their game. He represents both X and Y.
 
fisheyes said:
I think the backlash to Mewtwo's removal is what is going to keep the roster from having any cuts. Remember that nobody* liked Mewtwo's in Melee, but as soon as he was cut, there was uproar. I think Sakurai and the team would be very apprehensive about cutting anyone else
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People were pretty pissed about Roy too. Young Link basically became Toon Link, so his fans were probably fine with things. Dr. Mario and Mario were almost identical, and it seemed like everybody disliked Pichu and wanted him gone. It doesn't seem like there are any Brawl guys that everyone wants outright gone. I can't think of a single removal that wouldn't upset a good chunk of people.
 
leroidys said:
Why would Pokemon trainer not return? He's the single best representative of the series in the game.
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#opinion

fisheyes said:
I think the backlash to Mewtwo's removal is what is going to keep the roster from having any cuts. Remember that nobody* liked Mewtwo's in Melee, but as soon as he was cut, there was uproar. I think Sakurai and the team would be very apprehensive about cutting anyone else
Click to expand...

I agree with that.
 
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