Support NeoGAF

[JesseEwiak]

Elizabeth Warren.

Within a couple months in office, she'd have to make a compromise to get a bill passed or would make a foreign policy decision you'd think is horrible or some other horrible injustice would pop up that would piss off the base of her supporters. And by 'base', I actually mean a loud minority, since like Obama, she'd continue to have 80% approval rating among self-described liberal Democrat's as the other 20% act like it's the end of the world.

Ya' know how I know this? Because I just lived through Obama's Presidency.

 

[teruterubozu]

Within a couple months in office, she'd have to make a compromise to get a bill passed or would make a foreign policy decision you'd think is horrible or some other horrible injustice would pop up that would piss off the base of her supporters. And by 'base', I actually mean a loud minority, since like Obama, she'd continue to have 80% approval rating among self-described liberal Democrat's as the other 20% act like it's the end of the world.

Ya' know how I know this? Because I just lived through Obama's Presidency.

The Whitehouse vampirism is indeed real. Nevertheless we need to keep sacrificing our promising candidates to the altar and hope someone comes through unscathed.

 

[matty2Dfraud]

I listened to it and don't really see anything wrong. I can only assume some of the stories defense attorneys have. Doesn't sound like a great job. Probably have to laugh it off just to make it through the day once in a while.

 

[linkboy]

Lol. Realistically? Hillary Clinton could probably kill someone and still have a great shot at becoming President. I'm dead serious.

I thought she did, isn't that what benghazi is all about?

 

[RobotChant]

I'm not sold on Hillary because she and Bill have so much shady shit in their past. Those who think Hillary will steamroll her competitors underestimate how ugly things will get. Everything old will be new again because voters have short memories. Karl Rove will have lots of material to work with. Dems will be nice out of respect, but the GOP won't.

 

[joedan]

Yes, this is what defense lawyers do.

No, it doesn't make it right or justifiable.

People who admit their guilt don't deserve a defense.

lol.smh.

 

[WanderingWind]

People who admit their guilt don't deserve a defense.

Think about that one for a minute or two.

 

[Nivash]

I listened to the entire tape and I find nothing objectional about it. She laughs twice: first when the client she thought was guilty aced a polygraph, at how this destroyed her faith in polygraphs.

The second time is at the punchline of a long and bizarre story about how the evidence was thrown out. To summarise: the police took possession of a pair of bloody underpants. They sent it to the lab which cut out the bloody part and analysed it and sent the rest (the clean part with a hole in them) back to the police as "evidence". The lab then destroyed the real evidence.

Clinton then took the clean underpants with a hole in them to a mad-scientist like eccentric Nobel prize winner living in some kind of mansion in a run down part of Brooklyn. He concluded that there was nothing left to analyse on the underpants. Because the real evidence had been destroyed by the lab the defence could therefore not double check the evidence, which means it had to be thrown out.

She laughed at how this bizarre twist, centered around a pair of underpants with a hole in them, was needed to demonstrate an actual miscarriage of justice on the part of the prosecution - that they tried to use evidence that no longer existed! She wasn't laughing at the miscarriage of justice of how her client got off easy. It actually is a funny story because it's so bizarre, it's like something out of a TV show.

If anything I got the impression that absurd things like this is why Clinton didn't end up working as a public defender but chose teaching instead and some lighter cases.

 

[Sickboy007]

This kind of lawyer talk is really common, don't see anything shocking about it. I'm more disturbed by the fact that her defense involved the sexual slandering of a 12 year old, those are some slimy tactics that not all lawyers are willing to use.

 

[teruterubozu]

I'm not sold on Hillary because she and Bill have so much shady shit in their past. Those who think Hillary will steamroll her competitors underestimate how ugly things will get. Everything old will be new again because voters have short memories. Karl Rove will have lots of material to work with. Dems will be nice out of respect, but the GOP won't.

Dems like to "fall in love" with their candidates. Unfortunately Hillary keeps being positioned as "next in line" which really doesn't work.

 

[Sathsquatch]

Yes, this is what defense lawyers do.

No, it doesn't make it right or justifiable.

People who admit their guilt don't deserve a defense.

The defendant in this case did not admit his guilt. Even if he did, their lawyer still has to defend them. Politicians and judges can become popular by appearing to be "tough on crime" which often times leads to over zealous prosecution and punishment for crimes. Not that long ago, only about 13 crimes were considered felonies. Now that "tough on crime" is so popular politically, the number of crimes considered felonies has skyrocketed. At the same time, our leaders have let conditions in our prisons deteriorate. Many states actually refuse to comply with safety measures to reduce prison rape, acting as though getting raped was part of the punishment for crimes.

Society's zealous prosecution of crimes needs a counterbalance so that our criminal justice system does not as a witch hunt where people extract as severe revenge on the accused as possible just because it makes them feel good.

 

[dramatis]

I doubt we will ever get closure on this issue. If Clinton did make those remarks, I doubt her campaign will ever allow tapes to be leaked. If she didn't, then I doubt her campaign will acknowledge this criticism.

I'm anything but an expert, but I doubt that kind of bragging is rare among attorneys. Besides, it's most likely that the defendant(s?) never admitted to anything, but Clinton believed they were guilty.

The audio is available here?

Here's the audio:

http://freebeacon.com/politics/audi...nse-of-child-rapist-in-newly-unearthed-tapes/

Direct youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2f13f2awK4

The Washington Free Beacon has several articles about this.

http://freebeacon.com/columns/hillarys-people/

http://freebeacon.com/politics/the-hillary-tapes/

It's as Nivash describes. In context, Hillary wasn't laughing about getting the child rapist 'free', she was laughing about how polygraphs didn't really work like she thought they would and about how the prosecution really screwed up.

Edit: If the trial itself has recordings of Hillary slandering the victim, there's none available yet as far as I can see. Currently we mostly have the grievances of the victim.

 

[SneakySneaks]

Is this scummy, yes. It's more ethically shady than what Romney did with is job at Bain. But it's a necessary thing, she had to do whatever it took to win for client. Was slander a 12 year a shitty thing, hell yes. As a true Independent I don't care for Hillary as a person, but she's still the most politically intelligent person with a chance of winning. I'll still vote for over any of the Tea Party (or similar R) candidates.

 

[wildfire]

The one thing that only bothered me about these accusations is if Clinton was laughing at the victims predicament. It's her job to defend a criminal but her laughing at the victim would reveal that she has very serious issues.

SO I listened to the audio tape and this is being overblown.

The first time she laughs is at how her client passes the lie detector test. His ability to pass without any problems made the machine's practicality a joke.

The second time she laughs was after she takes the evidence (keep in mind there was a funny story behind the evidence she had to work with in the first place) to the foremost expert on bloodwork who points out while he can see a stain (after using a magnifying glass) there simply isn't enough of sample to actually do a test let alone confirm one way or the other whose blood it is.

So she goes back and tells the judge the evidence isn't permissible and would be a miscarriage of justice to use.


She's just laughing at the absurdity of how her client dodged 2 bullets in a row.


She is under no circumstances laughing about the victim.

The audio is available here?


It's as Nivash describes. In context, Hillary wasn't laughing about getting the child rapist 'free', she was laughing about how polygraphs didn't really work like she thought they would and about how the prosecution really screwed up.

Edit: If the trial itself has recordings of Hillary slandering the victim, there's none available yet as far as I can see. Currently we mostly have the grievances of the victim.

To be fair the prosecution didn't screw up at all. It was the crime lab who decided to cut out the blood soaked part of the pants and then they sent the wrong article of clothing back to the court. The prosecution got blindsided.

 

[Knoxcore]

If anything, this reveals Hillary Clinton was a competent defense lawyer. There really isn't any scandal here.

 

[Htown]

So, she did what she was supposed to do.

Your job is a defense attorney is to represent your client. Your entire purpose is to get them acquitted, or if you can't do that, to get them a favorable plea bargain.

Innocent until proven guilty. Your job as a defense attorney is to keep the state from proving your client guilty beyond a reasonable doubt; whether you think they actually did the crime is only relevant to the extent that it effects your ability to defend the client.

 

[charsace]

Is this scummy, yes. It's more ethically shady than what Romney did with is job at Bain. But it's a necessary thing, she had to do whatever it took to win for client. Was slander a 12 year a shitty thing, hell yes. As a true Independent I don't care for Hillary as a person, but she's still the most politically intelligent person with a chance of winning. I'll still vote for over any of the Tea Party (or similar R) candidates.

I don't know about this being worse then Romney who left hundreds of people jobless.

 

[MegaMelon]

So, she did what she was supposed to do.

Your job is a defense attorney is to represent your client. Your entire purpose is to get them acquitted, or if you can't do that, to get them a favorable plea bargain.

Innocent until proven guilty. Your job as a defense attorney is to keep the state from proving your client guilty beyond a reasonable doubt; whether you think they actually did the crime is only relevant to the extent that it effects your ability to defend the client.

Gee and here I thought the whole point of the justice system was to carry out, well, justice. Never mind though, by this logic criminals should be allowed off the hook or get less severe sentences if their lawyers are good enough. Yup, nothing wrong with that!

 

[Karl Hawk]

Off-topic, but what's with Hilary Clinton's Benghazi? Can someone explain?

 

[poppabk]

Gee and here I thought the whole point of the justice system was to carry out, well, justice. Never mind though, by this logic criminals should be allowed off the hook or get less severe sentences if their lawyers are good enough. Yup, nothing wrong with that!

What alternative are people proposing? Remember, the men she defended may be innocent, her defence may have prevented two men losing significant portions of their lives.

 

[kehs]

Gee and here I thought the whole point of the justice system was to carry out, well, justice. Never mind though, by this logic criminals should be allowed off the hook or get less severe sentences if their lawyers are good enough. Yup, nothing wrong with that!

How about making sure prosecutors are better, allow them better resources. Better forensics. More investments into evidence processing.

Have a better balanced pool of a jury.

Less biased judges.


Hindsight though, is always better for judging(lol) past cases than advocating for actual change.

 

[meltingparappa]

The victim said if she saw Clinton today, she would call her out for what she sees as the hypocrisy of Clinton’s current campaign to fight for women’s rights compared to her actions regarding this rape case so long ago.

Not to split hairs, but it's possible to change and get better at something after "so long ago."

 

[The Technomancer]

Gee and here I thought the whole point of the justice system was to carry out, well, justice. Never mind though, by this logic criminals should be allowed off the hook or get less severe sentences if their lawyers are good enough. Yup, nothing wrong with that!

You have to treat criminals as innocent until proven guilty. This is the foundation of our justice system.

 

[Keri]

How about making sure prosecutors are better, allow them better resources. Better forensics. More investments into evidence processing.

Have a better balanced pool of a jury.

Less biased judges.


Hindsight though, is always better for judging(lol) past cases than advocating for actual change.

Also, there need to be changes in the system, to lessen incentives for Prosecutors to bolsters their conviction and sentencing rates. If people think its bad being a public defender and defending someone they think is guilty, imagine being a deputy district attorney and having a mandate come down that you have to prosecute someone you think is innocent, because it's a high profile case and your boss needs someone to go away for it.

If you want to remove the adversarial nature of our justice system, there would have to be a lot of changes and even then, who knows if we'd find the right balance.

 

[Brakke]

Off-topic, but what's with Hilary Clinton's Benghazi? Can someone explain?

It was a tragedy loons are trying to make into a scandal.

 

[Htown]

Gee and here I thought the whole point of the justice system was to carry out, well, justice. Never mind though, by this logic criminals should be allowed off the hook or get less severe sentences if their lawyers are good enough. Yup, nothing wrong with that!

The justice system consists of more than one part. Why even have defense attorneys if they aren't going to defend their client?

You're not making sense.

 

[pigeon]

I'm not going to say that I disagree with you 100% with the heart of this reasoning, but since nobody would realistically say "Yup, you totally called me out on my double standards!" this is a pointless argument to try and have with anyone.

Hey, I'll take it on.

I think this is accurate. I already like Hillary and reading this didn't really change my view., I already don't like Mitt and reading the same story about him wouldn't change my view either.

The takeaway I have from this is that this is actually a pretty morally neutral act, full of gray areas that people who have preexisting opinions can argue over, choosing the best or the worst aspects of it to focus on.

But if it's a pretty morally neutral act then there's no reason anybody should actually care about it.

 

[Pastry]

Also, there need to be changes in the system, to lessen incentives for Prosecutors to bolsters their conviction and sentencing rates. If people think its bad being a public defender and defending someone they think is guilty, imagine being a deputy district attorney and having a mandate come down that you have to prosecute someone you think is innocent, because it's a high profile case and your boss needs someone to go away for it.

If you want to remove the adversarial nature of our justice system, there would have to be a lot of changes and even then, who knows if we'd find the right balance.

Yeah my brother is a prosecutor and he has come home disheartened about having to try someone he knows is innocent. It's a part of the job and it's what he has to do but being a prosecutor/public defender can be pretty thankless jobs:

 

[Armaros]

You have to treat criminals as innocent until proven guilty. This is the foundation of our justice system.

Politics and narrative to make a contraversy and narrative to reinforce what people already believe are more important.

Judging by some of the comments in this thread, quiet a few people would rather have public defenders quit or not exist, so what they imagine as 'justice' can get carried out.

I wonder what their tone would be if they got charged with anything and had no money for an attorney. I guess your fucked, and it must mean your guilty.

 

[kingkitty]

Off-topic, but what's with Hilary Clinton's Benghazi? Can someone explain?

Hillary lied, people died.

#romney2016

 

[Aaron Strife]

People who admit their guilt don't deserve a defense.

He didn't. He took a lie detector test and passed.

What is wrong with you?

 

[Fugu]

Within a couple months in office, she'd have to make a compromise to get a bill passed or would make a foreign policy decision you'd think is horrible or some other horrible injustice would pop up that would piss off the base of her supporters. And by 'base', I actually mean a loud minority, since like Obama, she'd continue to have 80% approval rating among self-described liberal Democrat's as the other 20% act like it's the end of the world.

Ya' know how I know this? Because I just lived through Obama's Presidency.

That's a false equivalency. Obama was in favor of the death penalty and opposed to gay marriage before he got into office. People on the left who were paying attention were disappointed in his prospects well before they were disappointed in his presidency.

 

[Stinkles]

Off-topic, but what's with Hilary Clinton's Benghazi? Can someone explain?

Hillary had bulletproof intelligence that Al Qaeda was about to attack the embassy at Benghazi. John McCain and Rand Paul offered to lead SEAL Team Seven on a rescue mission, but Hillary illegally detained them at Guantanamo by letting all five of Al Qaeda's number two leaders go free. She also made it illegal for SEAL operatives to own firearms.

 

[Htown]

People who admit their guilt don't deserve a defense.

Everyone deserves a defense.

 

[SmokeMaxX]

Hillary had bulletproof intelligence that Al Qaeda was about to attack the embassy at Benghazi. John McCain and Rand Paul offered to lead SEAL Team Seven on a rescue mission, but Hillary illegally detained them at Guantanamo by letting all five of Al Qaeda's number two leaders go free. She also made it illegal for SEAL operatives to own firearms.

You forgot that she ran over a bald eagle with her Prius.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

People who admit their guilt don't deserve a defense.

This is a disturbingly sheltered opinion.