Support NeoGAF

[pfkas]

You keep saying Thug. I do not think it means what you think it means.

 

[kingslunk]

Have you ever heard of cultural appropriation?

I think culture is worthless, like religion. Just divides people further.

 

[Foggy]

Elvis did steal songs written by Black musicians though. Hound Dog is a total rip. Guys like the Stones used Chuck berry songs. Chuck Berry and the like really have only recently started getting the credit they deserve.

Totally agree, but since when is Chuck Berry just now getting credit? As much as I can recall he's always been considered a legend and a pioneer of rock and roll.

The whole "who invented what" discussion is always a fruitless thing to pursue since it's always messy, imprecise, and gets argued into the dirt for no real benefit to anyone. But that's more a music discussion than anything else. The list itself is stark and sobering, I just wish it didn't have trifling stuff like booty trends and bae. I understand what it's going for, but shit like that comes off as tone-deaf.

 

[-COOLIO-]

There's a nuance in these issues that requires either experience and/or intelligence. People keep on missing the point, again and again and again. After a while you're just burnt out explaining.

I'll only talk about one thing here and that's cultural appropriation when it comes to white rap stars like Iggy. The problem isn't necessarily that they won something, the problem is that someone like Iggy takes a stereotypical black accent in her songs that's not her own at all... and then wins awards for it. She only does it for style apparently. That's cultural appropriation.

I've noticed a few other white artists do the same stuff in they're music. I mean if you grew up in a place where you have a typical black accent, that's perfectly fine. If not though it just SCREAMS cultural appropriation to me and Iggy is the epitome. She has an Australian accent for christ's sake.

to be honest, unless it's an offensive caricature, i'm not sure why that's a bad thing. i've heard people talk with british accents just because they think it sounds better. cheesy? maybe. inherently wrong? i'm not seeing it.

 

[gerg]

There's a nuance in these issues that requires either experience and/or intelligence. People keep on missing the point, again and again and again. After a while you're just burnt out explaining.

I'll only talk about one thing here and that's cultural appropriation when it comes to white rap stars like Iggy. The problem isn't necessarily that they won something, the problem is that someone like Iggy takes a stereotypical black accent in her songs that's not her own at all... and then wins awards for it. She only does it for style apparently. That's cultural appropriation.

I've noticed a few other white artists do the same stuff in they're music. I mean if you grew up in a place where you have a typical black accent, that's perfectly fine. If not though it just SCREAMS cultural appropriation to me and Iggy is the epitome. She has an Australian accent for christ's sake.

I think the quality issues of cultural appropriation seem to touch upon is one of authenticity - Iggy Azalea's singing voice does not feel like an authentic part of her identity, and thus comes across as appropriative of someone else's. I think I can agree with that argument.

 

[terrene]

Jesus. My fellow white dudes, maybe you should spend more time listening to what black people are saying to you in handy, sourced, easily digestible list form, instead of trying to invalidate their experiences as if you were the fucking experts here? The butthurt and objections are so strong in this thread. Don't worry dudes, you'll be fine.

 

[Piecake]

Totally agree, but since when is Chuck Berry just now getting credit? As much as I can recall he's always been considered a legend and a pioneer of rock and roll.

The whole "who invented what" discussion is always a fruitless thing to pursue since it's always messy, imprecise, and gets argued into the dirt for no real benefit to anyone. But that's more a music discussion than anything else. The list itself is stark and sobering, I just wish it didn't have trifling stuff like booty trends and bae. I understand what it's going for, but shit like that comes off as tone-deaf.

That's what I've always head/learned as well. I'd be interested to see if someone has any actual data on it since I would be somewhat surprised if black culture isnt given credit for rock.

 

[Undubbed]

At first I was like, 'what the fuck is bae? I've never heard of it'. Turns out it's pronounced 'bay', not 'bye'. Nooooow it makes sense.

 

[xiceman191]

I think culture is worthless, like religion. Just divides people further.

So we should all like, and believe the same things.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

I think the quality issues of cultural appropriation seem to touch upon is one of authenticity - Iggy Azalea's singing voice does not feel like an authentic part of her identity, and thus comes across as appropriative of someone else's. I think I can agree with that argument.

This makes sense to me. Iggy Azalea is frustrating to me because she's so fake.

That's what I've always head/learned as well. I'd be interested to see if someone has any actual data on it since I would be somewhat surprised if black culture isnt given credit for rock.

I think it's decently common knowledge, but how many people know who Elvis is without even really knowing any of his songs/music versus how many know who Chuck berry is or Muddy Waters or Son House or Fats Domino or Bo Diddley. Again, that's not to say Elvis isn't a great talent and a great rock n roll artist cause he is, but the fact that they profited from a style when the creators of the style weren't even allowed to comes as nasty.

 

[-COOLIO-]

Jesus. My fellow white dudes, maybe you should spend more time listening to what black people are saying to you in handy, sourced, easily digestible list form, instead of trying to invalidate their experiences as if you were the fucking experts here?

couple things wrong this this:

you assume everyone critiquing the list is white.

taking issue with a bad point on a list of 23 does not invalidate the struggle that black people face on the day to day.

not all articles written by black authors on black issues are infallible.

 

[Foggy]

That's what I've always head/learned as well. I'd be interested to see if someone has any actual data on it since I would be somewhat surprised if black culture isnt given credit for rock.

I mean, Elvis is credited often as the inventor of rock n roll, because for all intents and purposes he popularized it to the point that he became the standard and reference point for popular rock music. Of course that can be debated as well, but that's sometimes what the flimsy definition of "invented (insert art)" ends up becoming. He was the flashpoint for it and, well, of course he was. He was a white dude.

 

[poppabk]

Eh doesn't really matter because it all goes back to Chuck Berry and Muddy Waters kinda guys. Without them you get none of it.

And country music guys from Appalachia and European folk music. Who all wouldn't be doing anything without the guitar which we owe to the Spanish and the moors.

 

[Satch]

I think culture is worthless, like religion. Just divides people further.

are you a white american

 

[Mesousa]

And country music guys from Appalachia and European folk music. Who all wouldn't be doing anything without the guitar which we owe to the Spanish and the moors.

Actually the Banjo was created based on many different west African instruments by the children of former slaves in the Americas. Country music's biggest influence is Africa it seems.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

And country music guys from Appalachia and European folk music. Who all wouldn't be doing anything without the guitar which we owe to the Spanish and the moors.

It's not fair to make arguments like that, cause at that point I might as well just say Kanye owes some caveman with a rock respect because the caveman hit out a beat. Elvis, the Stones, the Beatles, all these massively huge kings of rock took influence from all these different black musicians, which isn't in itself bad. What's bad is that these same musicians weren't allowed to be on the same radio stations as these guys because of their skin, despite their music being similar. It's close enough in history for it to be significant and meaningful.

 

[fushi]

to be honest, unless it's an offensive caricature, i'm not sure why that's a bad thing. i've heard people talk with british accents just because they think it sounds better. cheesy? maybe. inherently wrong? i'm not seeing it.

A white person adapting AAVE into their persona is cultural appropriation from a position of power. The same cannot be said of a British accent, as it is not a central part of minority cultural identity.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Demi..you like the Moses of race relations..stop dividing us!

 

[Piecake]

I think it's decently common knowledge, but how many people know who Elvis is without even really knowing any of his songs/music versus how many know who Chuck berry is or Muddy Waters or Son House or Fats Domino or Bo Diddley. Again, that's not to say Elvis isn't a great talent and a great rock n roll artist cause he is, but the fact that they profited from a style when the creators of the style weren't even allowed to comes as nasty.

I don't think it is a shock to anyone that Americans were a bunch of filthy racists back then. That really isnt the issue though. The claim being made is that black culture does not get the credit for inventing rock today. That has nothing to do with the popularity of Elvis and Chuck Berry back then.

I mean, Elvis is credited often as the inventor of rock n roll, because for all intents and purposes he popularized it to the point that he became the standard and reference point for popular rock music. Of course that can be debated as well, but that's sometimes what the flimsy definition of "invented (insert art)" ends up becoming. He was the flashpoint for it and, well, of course he was. He was a white dude.

Ive honestly rarely seen that. He certainly gets credit for popularizing it, but like my above bit mentions, that isnt saying much considering racism. Of course, I am not too familiar with Elvis, Berry or rock and roll history

 

[-COOLIO-]

A white person adapting AAVE into their persona is cultural appropriation from a position of power. The same cannot be said of a British accent, as it is not a central part of minority cultural identity.

aave?

i won't argue that it's cultural appropriation, i just fail to see the harm in it. i'm legitimately asking what the harm is.

 

[Undubbed]

I really hate being told what to do and what not to do because I'm a black guy, so I don't like doing it to others. So I feel a tiny bit bad for putting Iggy on blast, but it's really the bigger picture that's worrisome. I mean, it's very, very plausible fear that overtime white people can completely take over a genre and leave blacks in the dust popularity-wise, cause if white people can do it what do we need black people for? Probably not gonna happen anytime soon, but I can understand the anxiety among my black peers. An irrational fear? Maybe, I don't know. Not like there aren't any precedence for it, though.

 

[<+)O Robido O(+>]

I think the issue has always been that when black people do something it's savage and violent. When some white person does that same exact thing (see "Gangsta" rap vs Eminem rapping about killing random whomevers), they're a breath of fresh air, hailed as the first "whatever" with something to say. The black and latino communities have placed a premium on fat asses long before Igloo Austrailia got her butt implants. But here we are, like its some new thing.

It's frustrating to say the least.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

#19 is next-level.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

I really hate being told what to do and what not to do because I'm a black guy, so I don't like doing it to others. So I feel a tiny bit bad for putting Iggy on blast, but it's really the bigger picture that's worrisome. I mean, it's very, very plausible fear that overtime white people can completely take over a genre and leave blacks in the dust popularity-wise, cause if white people can do it what do we need black people for? Probably not gonna happen anytime soon, but I can understand the anxiety among my black peers. An irrational fear? Maybe, I don't know. Not like there aren't any precedence for it, though.

That's pretty much rock n roll . Classic rock is all white dudes, with maybe the exception of Jimi Hendrix and like 3 others. When people think of Rock now it's white dudes with big hair, and not old Black guys.

Edit: though in terms of rap/hip hop the vast majority of known rappers are black, and asides from Eminem and Macklemore I can't think of any others, but I don't really listen to modern music so IDK.

 

[BearFlexington]

I'd like to see a list like this for the year 1934 for comparison purposes.

 

[Valhelm]

Some of the examples aren't great, but this list brings up a lot of really important points that must be discussed.

 

[RedStep]

Really?

"This one person said a mean thing about another one and also a kid was killed" is just the worst way to try and make a list. There's a reason we don't list usually list human rights atrocities and celebrity mudslinging together in the "worst events of 2013" lists, geniuses.

 

[Foggy]

Also, there are 25 days left in the year. Plenty of time for more shenanigans.

 

[Mesousa]

I think the issue has always been that when black people do something it's savage and violent. When some white person does that same exact thing (see "Gangsta" rap vs Eminem rapping about killing random whomevers), they're a breath of fresh air, hailed as the first "whatever" with something to say. The black and latino communities have placed a premium on fat asses long before Igloo Austrailia got her butt implants. But here we are, like its some new thing.

It's frustrating to say the least.

So true.

Also Eminem is still in rap after making HORRIFIC statements about brown women. Would a black artists still be in a more white genre of music if he made the same statements about white women?

This is another example of white privilege existing in the context of brown music.

 

[-COOLIO-]

I really hate being told what to do and what not to do because I'm a black guy, so I don't like doing it to others. So I feel a tiny bit bad for putting Iggy on blast, but it's really the bigger picture that's worrisome. I mean, it's very, very plausible fear that overtime white people can completely take over a genre and leave blacks in the dust popularity-wise, cause if white people can do it what do we need black people for? Probably not gonna happen anytime soon, but I can understand the anxiety among my black peers. An irrational fear? Maybe, I don't know. Not like there aren't any precedence for it, though.

i would only have an issue with a swath of popular white hip-hop artists if they got popular because they were white. if the heist was an objectively terrible album i would take issue with the grammy wins, and maybe then point to racism. but the heist is legitimately my favourite rap album, so i don't.

 

[Sol..]

Punk? The delineation of punk is fairly arbitrary so I think it would be hard to really ascribe it to any particular group.

He's probably referring to:
A band called death

But i don't think they got the audience to have made a relevant contribution to the punk movement. But man were they on to somethin...

 

[fushi]

aave?

i won't argue that it's cultural appropriation, i just fail to see the harm in it. i'm legitimately asking what the harm is.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English

I updated my post. I didn't know whether this acronym is common or not.

The harm is the way it dilutes the identity of black culture. It takes something central to it and turns it into a shtick, something to capitalize on. Cherry picking all of the 'cool' stuff and making them your own, while leaving out everything else.

If this does not seem offensive to you at least on a very basic level, then... I am not sure I know how to continue explaining it without further bad analogies.

 

[ChawlieTheFair]

I don't think it is a shock to anyone that Americans were a bunch of filthy racists back then. That really isnt the issue though. The claim being made is that black culture does not get the credit for inventing rock today. That has nothing to do with the popularity of Elvis and Chuck Berry back then.



Ive honestly rarely seen that. He certainly gets credit for popularizing it, but like my above bit mentions, that isnt saying much considering racism. Of course, I am not too familiar with Elvis, Berry or rock and roll history

Well as you said it was the result of racism.

 

[bill0527]

Chuck Berry, while definitely a pioneer of rock n roll, also liked to piss and defecate all over white women right after he fucked them. I'd like to think this is how he got his revenge on the white man for stealing his music.

 

[Piecake]

Well as you said it was the result of racism.

Youre missing the point. We are talking about today not 70 years ago.

 

[-COOLIO-]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_American_Vernacular_English

I updated my post. I didn't know whether this acronym is common or not.

The harm is the way it dilutes the identity of black culture. It takes something central to it and turns it into a shtick, something to capitalize on. Cherry picking all of the 'cool' stuff and making them your own, while leaving out everything else.

If this does not seem offensive to you at least on a very basic level, then... I am not sure I know how to continue explaining it without further bad analogies.

"The harm is the way it dilutes the identity of black culture. It takes something central to it and turns it into a shtick"

i can understand turning something of great cultural importance and trivializing it as being offensive. the native american headdress example that wiki uses i fully understand. iggy's use of AAVE doesn't strike that same cord with me unless its done in an offensive way. the way iggy uses it seems harmless. just as a way to make her music sound cooler. you see the same thing in J-rock all the time, where random parts of the song are attempted in english in a very western style, just because it's cooler.

cherry picking all the cool stuff from different cultures is precisely what makes toronto such a good place to live. i can have high quality authentic ethnic food from pretty much anywhere in the world within a dozen or so km. I can chill at a shisha bar or a bubble tea karaoke lounge.

you might call it diluting culture, but i see it as pulling cool and fun things from around the globe and just living a better life. at the end of the day cultural homogeneity makes the world and better and more peaceful place. it would only be a bad thing if culinary, architectural, and/or fashion diversity died out. but that'll never happen. if we achieve peace through the homogeneity of beliefs and values though, then that sounds ideal to me. as saudi arabia treats women better and better, one could argue theyre being culturally diluted, but as long as i can eat good saudi food, i dont see where the problem is.

 

[ICKE]

Chuck Berry, while definitely a pioneer of rock n roll, also liked to piss and defecate all over white women right after he fucked them. I'd like to think this is how he got his revenge on the white man for stealing his music.

Was it not a case of him secrectly recording women in the toilets while jacking off, and later on he had to pay alot of money for it? One of those cases where people remember him for his achievements rather than being a total pervert.

 

[xiceman191]

"The harm is the way it dilutes the identity of black culture. It takes something central to it and turns it into a shtick"

i can understand turning something of great cultural importance and trivializing it as being offensive. the native american headdress example that wiki uses i fully understand. iggy's use of AAVE doesn't strike that same cord with me unless its done in an offensive way. the way iggy uses it seems harmless. just as a way to make her music sound cooler. you see the same thing in J-rock all the time, where random parts of the song are attempted in english in a very western style, just because it's cooler.

cherry picking all the cool stuff from different cultures is precisely what makes toronto such a good place to live. i can have high quality authentic ethnic food from pretty much anywhere in the world within a dozen or so km. I can chill at a shisha bar or a bubble tea karaoke lounge.

you might call it diluting culture, but i see it as pulling cool and fun things from around the globe and just living a better life. at the end of the day cultural homogeneity makes the world and better and more peaceful place. it would only be a bad thing if culinary, architectural, and/or fashion diversity died out. but that'll never happen. if we achieve peace through the homogeneity of beliefs and values though, then that sounds ideal to me. as saudi arabia treats women better and better, one could argue theyre being culturally diluted, but as long as i can eat good saudi food, i dont see where the problem is.

The problem is when black people did it, it was a reason to shit on them for it. You can watch the news whenever something happens it always turns into maybe black people shouldn't listen to rap or make rap because it makes them look bad. Yet when a white person does it, all of a sudden rap music is alright. When black women had big asses everybody was shitting on them calling fat but now that its attached to white women it is now the in thing. Iggy mimics the way black women speaks and gets praised for it but yet when black women speak they get called unintelligent, angry, etc. That's the problem alot of shit black people start they get shitted on for doing until somebody white takes it over and then it becomes ok.

 

[Kallor]

How is Ebola on Americas shoulders alone? what about Europe and Asia?

 

[-COOLIO-]

The problem is when black people did it, it was a reason to shit on them for it. You can watch the news whenever something happens it always turns into maybe black people shouldn't listen to rap or make rap because it makes them look bad. Yet when a white person does it, all of a sudden rap music is alright. When black women had big asses everybody was shitting on them calling fat but now that its attached to white women it is now the in thing. Iggy mimics the way black women speaks and gets praised for it but yet when black women speak they get called unintelligent, angry, etc. That's the problem alot of shit black people start they get shitted on for doing until somebody white takes it over and then it becomes ok.

to me, these are legitimate concerns and wholly different from the issue of cultural appropriation.

iggy using AAVE is fine, but if white people using AAVE is what's required to remove negative connotations from AAVE, then i would agree that that's a problem.

 

[Thorakai]

I think culture is worthless, like religion. Just divides people further.

The fuck.

 

[Jooney]

No 15 is particularly egregious. The constant harassment, annoyance and disruption that comes from having to deal with the police is something that is anathema to my own existence. Like a tax that only black folk have to pay.

 

[Valhelm]

The fuck.

Probably STEM superiority.

 

[dejay]

You can't protect bits of culture from being used by others. If that happened none of the music we have today would exist. Rock and roll came from a multitude of cultures, not just black or white. I understand the desire to have an identity but if that identity is wrapped up in popular culture then it's always going to be under threat. Hiphop is very popular amongst white people now. Iggy isn't the cause of that, she's the result of that.

 

[Officerrob]

Some absolutely horrendous stuff on that list, but also a bunch of ridiculous padding to get it up to 23. I'm of the opinion that you could easily get to a number that high (or higher) without some of the fluff

 

[rexor0717]

How is adopting an accent to rap taking that form out of its original cultural context?

I don't think its something thats really that big of a deal, but I think it fits the definition at least.

 

[FunkyMunkey]

I thought a bunch of more information came to light about the woman who fired the warning shot, and it wasn't as simple as media made it out to be at the start? Or was that misinformation?

 

[dejay]

I don't think its something thats really that big of a deal, but I think it fits the definition at least.

If people heard much Australian rap, with Australian accents, they'd understand that it's an acquired taste that even a lot of Australians who are into rap don't like. If Iggy grew up on American rap, I could understand her desire to rap in that style.

Lots of singers sing in an accent that differs from their own.

 

[Apt101]

I'm in my thirties, and remember many white and Hispanic contributors to hip hop culture over the years - since the 80's. I don't view that as black culture. That's like saying the guys from Hootie and the Blowfish or Tom Morello or In Living Color (the band) were appropriating white culture. Which is just a silly thing to suggest.

 

[Vigilant Walrus]

The fuck.

I mean, he has a point, if we're speaking Utopian! Culture and institutions rarely does anything for the individual, other than loop them into a pre-conceived notion and false sense of togetherness. It just makes human drift further apart.

But it's great for traveling because when the world is broken up like this, it makes for exotic adventures around the world. But for the human spirit? nahhhh

It's not sustainable. Hunter-Gatherer is really nice to romance about, but how long before you piss your HD porn? before you get tired of taking a dump in the woods with no air-con? We're too addicted to the current lifestyle. I'll give up everything just to live comfortable, right? your never going to see another french revolution. people are just too fat these days!