343 Scrapped Traditional Halo: A Story About Triple-A
- Thread starter Plywood
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ToyMachine228
Member
All of you speaking of Halo being ruined by either Bungie or 343 are making yourself sound dull. If a series if seriously "ruined", it will fail to find success. Halo 4 was, and is, by all means a success. We can pick out what we all individually liked or didn't like, but guess what? We all bought it. And most of us are going to buy Halo 5 as well. So until Halo isn't relevant anymore, and fails to move copies, move hardware, spawn countless novels, fan sites, and other media, no, Halo has not been "ruined" because clearly there is still very much something here that keeps bringing people back.
Well, I think it's more of a problem that the series' multiplayer peaked so early with Halo 2. It created shoes too big to fill.
It's a testament to amazing design that the covenant are still fun to fight after all these years. Again, shoes too big to fill and all that.
Creatively, neither Bungie nor 343 has been able to capture that rich campaign feeling of Halo CE or the feeling and balance and map design of Halo 2 MP (and many would argue Halo CE MP.)
I don't think you understand the reason Halo 4 sold well, and you obviously have yet to look at the population numbers.
VGChampion
Member
I didn't buy, rent, or even play Halo 4. I'm still sort of sad I didn't because I really don't know what's "wrong" with it. All I know is I spent almost four hours a day 24/7 back when Halo first came out all the way up until Halo 2 when my group got older and had jobs but we still played almost every day. I just find it weird that I haven't even tried out Halo 4 and I'm not sure why I haven't.
soulassssns
Banned
For you maybe
Shake Appeal
Member
Halo 4 was a success in sales, but it's been a pretty abject failure in terms of its long-term hold on an audience/playerbase. It'll be interesting to see how many 'regular' consumers don't go back to the well for 5 now that they've experienced 4.
super-heated plasma
Member
halo is like pizza...even when its bad its good. thankfully its still mostly good. now, again, how about that halo wars 2?
Twilight Gap
Member
And a lot of others, population speaks for itself.
Even tough English is my third language, Ive still been able to follow and understand many stories, Ive read Moby Dick, Lord of the Rings, Silmarillion and fully understood all these stories. Ive watched movies that tended to challenge the viewer like Memento and still perfectly "got" it. I am not the sharpest knife in the drawer but i do like to think i can understand a story.
I am still unsure as to what Halo "story" is about, i fell off the wagon pretty much as soon as Halo 2 began and despite owning every Halo game bar the RTS one, i still do not get it.
So one thing 343 "nailed" really well, is how utterly lost one feels watching these cutscenes, Bungie was a master at that. Other than Halo 1, Reach was the only one that was easy to understand for me. Its not even that the story is super complex, it just seems like scenes are missing from the game.
I know this is not what most of you care about as the discussion is largely concerned with the gameplay part of Halo 4 and the CoDifying of the franchise.
But i really wish they told the story better, something is just odd about this series, it should be simple yet i am totally lost.
I am still unsure as to what Halo "story" is about, i fell off the wagon pretty much as soon as Halo 2 began and despite owning every Halo game bar the RTS one, i still do not get it.
So one thing 343 "nailed" really well, is how utterly lost one feels watching these cutscenes, Bungie was a master at that. Other than Halo 1, Reach was the only one that was easy to understand for me. Its not even that the story is super complex, it just seems like scenes are missing from the game.
I know this is not what most of you care about as the discussion is largely concerned with the gameplay part of Halo 4 and the CoDifying of the franchise.
But i really wish they told the story better, something is just odd about this series, it should be simple yet i am totally lost.
From what I can tell (WARNING: I haven't played Halo 4 yet.) a lot of things rely on the expanded universe (things like comics, movies, etc.) way too much to do the work for the series.
I do agree that the franchise's story is way more complex than you'd expect such a mass-market friendly game would be, but just because it's complex doesn't mean it's good. Honestly, I really enjoyed CE's story, but everything after that was really take it or leave it for me. Things got a bit too muddled and intricate in spots for me to enjoy it. That's not to say everyone feels that way though.
That's why I was actually really excited for Halo 4, because it looked like it could just be a complete, total reboot judging from Halo 3's ending. They literally could hit the wipe-clean button and start over from scratch. You'd still have MC and Cortana, but that's it. From what I understand though, Halo 4 falls back into the same old stuff, and brings all the baggage of those past games and expanded universe things with it.
uhhh clearly there isn't, because the population is getting smaller every single day, and now even Modern Warfare 3 has a bigger population.
That makes sense, because i know i tried to follow the story but could never really connect things together, something was missing and perhaps that information was located in the EU.
I know when the highly controversial abrupt ending of Halo 2 happened, how pissed off people online were, yet i sat there and thought "okay, i see what they mean, but i still dont get it".
Combat Evolved i could follow, and Reach was easy to follow and care about as well. But everything else, including Halo 4 i was completely lost. I really thought that was just a Bungie weakness, but it seems 343 inherited the exact same weakness when it comes to telling the story
Like I said, I haven't played Halo 4 yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was due to 343 trying to stay a little too faithful to Bungie's storytelling style, and maybe just staying to close to their actual story.
MyAbsolution
Member
Id argue gameplay CE is superior. But maps wise... its near impossible to beat Halo 2.
I don't put much time into multiplayer, but I did miss the beautiful skyboxes of the Bungie Halo's, and weapons/vehicles not disappearing. Also the Halo theme. Little things that make a difference.
Hopefully those details are back and better in the next game, along with campaign theatre.
Hopefully those details are back and better in the next game, along with campaign theatre.
Oblivionmancer
Member
For better or worse, 343 definitely went their own way in terms of narrative in 4. I mean, it's still presented in a combination of cutscenes and radio banter during gameplay, but yeah, in terms of content they made their mark. It's not a mark I like very much, but it is definitely their own.
The storytelling in this franchise has always been terrible and very hard to follow
I agree it wouldn't have worked well with the Brute Pack, but there were other situations it could have been interesting(like the Sierra-117 dam or the assault up the Cartographer building on The Ark).
Outside the perks, loadouts, lag, abilities, worse forge mode, specializations, QTEs, braindead AI, cramped linear level design, serious Grunts, doors permanently closing behind you, no campaign scoring, plot hole filled story, killcams, missing weapons, ordnance and the fact the community was playing Infinity TDM instead of Slayer Pro?
I dunno.
soulassssns
Banned
to each their own....
Agree entirely, and I'd add the total failure that is the Promethean design. Aside from being devoid of personality, they are also not fun to fight and are constructed in a clear hierarchy: kill the Watcher first, always. With Bungie's Covenant designs there were pros and cons to taking out the Elite in a squad first; you kill the largest threat, but scatter their troops and risk suicide Grunts coming at you. Pick off the troops and you've to got to deal with the Elite the entire time. There was no right way to take down an encounter - it was up to your approach and style.
With Halo 4, after the first encounter with the Prometheans, they all played out the same: kill the Watcher, kill the Crawlers, then kill the Knights who helpfully stay back to guard their bridge/barrier/whatever. I was tired of fighting them one level after they were introduced. 343 tried to make them this close knit unit that worked together, but totally failed at developing ways to make their encounters dynamic, flexible or fun.
How does that disprove my previous statement?
Some people allow for goalpost movement. I'm not one of them, so I eagerly look forward to your response.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
I really wish they brought back invasion and invasion slayer. That gamemode was the only one which was properly designed around loadouts.
It also sucks that most of the single player levels were so 1 trick pony with the abilities. The fog of war thing was neat, but it was no where near as well thought out as alexandria's (exodus) jet packing sequences or the long night of solace invisibilty and sniper.
In fact that was a major problem throughout the halo 4 experience. You had these small brief experiences which were never really committed to. Like the QTE's that happen so infrequently that it makes you question whether they should be there at all. Same with how they featured armor abilities in the campaign, or weapons, or the vehicle sections. They're never frequent or long enough to feel like they're intended and it comes off disjointed, like its not the same game or was clearly designed by a seperate team.
It also sucks that most of the single player levels were so 1 trick pony with the abilities. The fog of war thing was neat, but it was no where near as well thought out as alexandria's (exodus) jet packing sequences or the long night of solace invisibilty and sniper.
In fact that was a major problem throughout the halo 4 experience. You had these small brief experiences which were never really committed to. Like the QTE's that happen so infrequently that it makes you question whether they should be there at all. Same with how they featured armor abilities in the campaign, or weapons, or the vehicle sections. They're never frequent or long enough to feel like they're intended and it comes off disjointed, like its not the same game or was clearly designed by a seperate team.
Yeah, I think they really felt designed for multiplayer, without a clear role in the campaign. As you said, at least Reach made one mission revolve around the jetpack, making it an integral part of the game.
Another issue I had with the campaign was the onslaught of heavy vehicle grinds. The Ghost escape sequence, the obligatory tank trench run, then the Mantis trench run, then two more heavy vehicle sections (both flying). I was very weary of linear vehicle gauntlets by the end.
Randolph Freelander
Member
Welcome to my biggest (single player, non-story) complaint since Halo 2.
les papillons sexuels
Banned
It wasn't as bad in odst, and the scarab fights in 3 felt a lot more organic with the different approaches, like using the elevator, but the sequences in reach, with exception of the sabre dog fighting, were pretty tiresome.
Randolph Freelander
Member
ODST was terrible in this regard (and most regards). Half the daggum campaign (the parts where you're not walking through the city between missions) was in vehicles. They've overdone vehicles in every single sequel. "Hey, people liked the limited vehicle sequences in CE, let's multiply them exponentially." (I know many of you love the vehicle sequences [yall crazy] or say "just walk" [yall so crazy].) When Reach rolls around and I'm playing Rogue Squadron.... oh my.
I actually love the vehicle sections in most Halo games, they're one of the highlights on the series for me. What I don't like are linear sequences - in vehicles or on foot. And Halo 4 was stuffed to the gills with them. I get that you don't like them, but I wanted to be clear about what I was really objecting to. (I didn't like a couple of ODSTs, including the tank mission.)
Until Reach, with the two Falcon turret sequences, what I've enjoyed about the (non-flying) vehicle parts in Bungie's Halo games was how the vehicle sections were crafted so that you could play them on foot. Even the mother of Halo's vehicle levels, Assault on the Control Room, was designed so you could play it that way; do so and you'll find the place littered with rocket, sniper and pistol ammo at all the key parts. Do Uplift Reserve in ODST on foot, and you'll find rockets, FRGs and Spartan lasers dotted all over the level to take vehicles out with. You can even take down the first two Scarabs in Halo 3 without setting foot in a vehicle. Replaying supposed vehicle levels only to find they accommodate an all-infantry approach make the levels wonderfully replayable.
Halo 4's sections had none of that flexibility. I tried hopping out of the Mantis, which I hated, only to be greeted with two Phantoms and a squad of Banshees. So I had to get back in. :\
les papillons sexuels
Banned
in odst I can think of 4, one of which was the final level and the same as the last level in every bungie halo game prior to that. Odst is my personal favorite of every halo game released so far. The structure and progression is just so much better then any other FPS game released in the last decated. Easily on par with metroid prime in many of the elements.
Randolph Freelander
Member
I didn't enjoy ODST, Reach, or 4 enough to bother even giving them a second play, so I wouldn't know. I replayed 2 more than 3, but the thought of trying to hoof it through the very long vehicle sections near the beginning of 2 just doesn't sound remotely fun. Or the other sequences on Delta Halo with wave after wave of ghost or banshee or both. And I forgot the wraiths. It might be possible, and it might be possible somebody could have fun doing it, but I'd rather the game forget the vehicles exist for the most part. But what can I say, I actually like the indoor portions in CE and I love the library.
Right, I got that you didn't like vehicle sections. I was just clarifying that with Halo 4, the nature of them changed, and so even for this fan of vehicles in Halo games, they sucked.
SenjutsuSage
Banned
Are you really so confident to think you know why most people bought Halo 4? Really? I was already interested in Halo because I loved the previous games, but the biggest reason I buy any Halo game is to play a game I always enjoy playing (singleplayer only) and to take in the fiction, of which I enjoy greatly.
After beating Halo 4, not only do I feel the fiction and story delivered more for me than they did in any other Halo title I've ever played, I also came away feeling quite strongly that the campaign itself is also the most fun I've ever had playing any Halo campaign. I think they made the best Halo game ever. That's my view of Halo 4. Now I'm absolutely certain (duh) that not everybody shares this opinion of mine, but it just goes to show the fallacy of trying to assume what everybody's motivations or feelings are on any particular issue. None of the people I knew personally and that were gamers liked Halo before Halo 4. They weren't convinced by the Master Chief, the universe, and they weren't particularly pulled in by the gameplay or multiplayer either. But ever since Halo 4's campaign, which is what most of them are talking about, all these people in my day to day life that I couldn't get to give Halo a serious shot before, are now huge fans of the franchise, are purchasing books to read, and can't wait for the next release. Clearly Halo 4 did some things right. It's fine to not think Halo 4 is particularly good, but not everybody agrees. Many think this game is excellent. You keep believing that population tells you anything about how much people enjoyed this game.
AdventureRacing
Member
It doesn't tell him how much everyone enjoyed the game but it does speak for a very large portion (the people who play MP). That's not to say anyone can't like the game but it's got to be a worry for 343 just how fast people have given up on the game.
I'm also not sure why you question him using the huge drop off in people playing the game as a means of gauging how the game was received and respond with anecdotal evidence of your own (which probably covers a handful of people).
Edit: They made all these changes to try and get the COD crowd on board and now they're further behind than ever before. They really need to deliver with halo 5.
REMEMBER CITADEL
Banned
Yes, and Halo 4 was not even bad pizza. Well, I'm talking about the campaign only, since I never played any multiplayer in any of the Halo games. I loved it. There's plenty of room for improvement, of course, but I was very pleased with it.
I love Halo to death, but looking at them all objectively, I've always found them 8/10 games (with 10/10 combat; again, I'm talking about the campaign alone), with ODST maybe being 7/10, and Halo 3 maybe a 9/10. Halo 4 was firmly in the 8/10 category.
CreateNowSleepLater
Member
Halo 4 should have been a direct sequel and extension of Halo 3. I always though Bungie had their eyes on their next game and were testing some things out in Reach. 343 should have taken it back to the Halo2/3 base and expanded on that leaving all that jetpack/loadout crap behind.
Halo was on the ropes after Reach because of the deviations. Halo 4 went 100% the wrong direction and the player base reacted (by not playing it)
The problem now is you lost a generation just about of Halo players who have moved on. Those people no longer trust you and you have a shit ton of competition now.
Halo needs to be Halo to stand out. That is how simple it is. Halo 5 should be marketed as a total commitment to the Halo core again. Ranks, competitive etc. You want to have some kind of Infinity social list that is ok but the MP needs to live off its even fotting social/ranked playlists. If not, then Halo 5 will bomb because not many people are buying a new Xbox to play Halo 5 after this.
Halo was on the ropes after Reach because of the deviations. Halo 4 went 100% the wrong direction and the player base reacted (by not playing it)
The problem now is you lost a generation just about of Halo players who have moved on. Those people no longer trust you and you have a shit ton of competition now.
Halo needs to be Halo to stand out. That is how simple it is. Halo 5 should be marketed as a total commitment to the Halo core again. Ranks, competitive etc. You want to have some kind of Infinity social list that is ok but the MP needs to live off its even fotting social/ranked playlists. If not, then Halo 5 will bomb because not many people are buying a new Xbox to play Halo 5 after this.