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[Jado]

You are completely missing the point -- what I find interesting is the level of cognitive dissonance necessary to reconcile what little perception of the reality of gender issues these people possess with their warped and self-victimizing perspective on their lives. People don't become executives by magic -- they do so by advancing through a corporate structure that rewards certain people and not others, if not over the course of a career, than over the course of generations. But if you want to believe that women are dominant, you have to break that link or otherwise, 1984-style, avoid seeing the train of logic -- so the argument becomes, as you suggest, "they are magic!"

This is the thought process I always think is fascinating. "Yes, I acknowledge that at the VERY TOP, everything is run by men. But at MY LEVEL WOMEN DOMINATE. And in other fields I don't know anything about, FOR SURE."

HAHA! You're funny.

Most of the "men at the top" (there are also a number of women) where I work are millionaires and they come from money (wealthy families, attend elite private schools while growing up, go to Ivys and other top schools). Their path to the top was carefully planned by their families. Feminism, men's rights, immigration policy, recessions... it barely has any effect on their livelihoods. Talking dogs could take all the jobs tomorrow, all the men and women discriminated against and fired, and this insanely wealthy minority will continue on as if nothing happened. The discussion we're having is about people like you and me that are actually affected by what's happening.

Your pointless vitriol aside, my argument still stands: in office settings, ALL but the top few jobs are going to a growing majority of women who are also being better compensated. Make of it what you will, but nothing you believe in or say changes these facts.

 

[jorma]

You are misunderstanding. I can accept that there could be some mild baseline evidences. I do not have an ideological opposition to this possibility. What I don't accept is that there is firm evidence of this fact, that what Jado has posted is firm evidence of this fact, and the notion that these baseline biological differences are so great that their expression cannot be effected by socialization to the extent that they are neutralized.

You should watch "Hjernevask" though, i think you'd find the whole series interesting but i'll just link to the episode about nature/nurture. It's a norwegian documentary series that changed a lot of our perceptions on this issue in scandinavia:
http://www.dailymotion.com/playlist...y_hjernevask-english-subtitles/1#video=xp14wz

Language is norwegian but the subtitles are fine.

I find your ideas about potential social engineering very unhealthy in general, even if it's unclear what differences you suggest that we neutralise.

 

[jorma]

You are completely missing the point -- what I find interesting is the level of cognitive dissonance necessary to reconcile what little perception of the reality of gender issues these people possess with their warped and self-victimizing perspective on their lives. People don't become executives by magic -- they do so by advancing through a corporate structure that rewards certain people and not others, if not over the course of a career, than over the course of generations. But if you want to believe that women are dominant, you have to break that link or otherwise, 1984-style, avoid seeing the train of logic -- so the argument becomes, as you suggest, "they are magic!"

wat

i have no clue what you are trying to say. My point still stands seeing as i don't understand you. You are born inside the 1%, there is no magic just birthright. And their power is not a feminist problem, it's a democratic problem. The world would not be fine if half of them were women. In fact, nothing in the world would change if they were all women. They'd be the same CEO's with the same priviliges and the same birthrights but with different gender. Their current gender is as irrelevant to me as it should be to you.

 

[lopaz]

You are completely missing the point -- what I find interesting is the level of cognitive dissonance necessary to reconcile what little perception of the reality of gender issues these people possess with their warped and self-victimizing perspective on their lives. People don't become executives by magic -- they do so by advancing through a corporate structure that rewards certain people and not others, if not over the course of a career, than over the course of generations. But if you want to believe that women are dominant, you have to break that link or otherwise, 1984-style, avoid seeing the train of logic -- so the argument becomes, as you suggest, "they are magic!"

The elite class of men are now so thoroughly detached from the ordinary man that it makes no difference what gender they are. In the past, it may have been a valid concern to think exclusively male elites would make male-centric laws and policies. Not any more.

 

[Brobzoid]

You should watch "Hjernevask" though, i think you'd find the whole series interesting but i'll just link to the episode about nature/nurture. It's a norwegian documentary series that changed a lot of our perceptions on this issue in scandinavia:
http://www.dailymotion.com/playlist...y_hjernevask-english-subtitles/1#video=xp14wz

Language is norwegian but the subtitles are fine.

I find your ideas about potential social engineering very unhealthy in general, even if it's unclear what differences you suggest that we neutralise.

That television show was actually widely criticized at the time of release. It presents a very ignorant perception of methodology and attempts to pit 'the international way of doing things' against Norwegian research institutes.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I would be interested to hear a definition of rape from you.

What ambiguity do you think exists in regards to the term that allows for disingenuous usage of it?

 

[jorma]

That television show was actually widely criticized at the time of release. It presents a very ignorant perception of methodology and attempts to pit 'the international way of doing things' against Norwegian research institutes.

Yes there was a huge debate obviously, since it changes most of the perceptions we had thus far, and it's not like we scandinavians have not invested plenty of political capital in the idea of nurture over nature and the "blank slate".

And it's not like it was the science that was discredited, he was just accused of having an "agenda". Nothing stuck, and it very much remains a relevant program.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

What ambiguity do you think exists in regards to the term that allows for disingenuous usage of it?

Rape only ever gets fuzzy when it involves two people who are not capable of giving consent.

 

[Devolution]

4 unhealthy movements thread, turns into MRA circle jerk. Welp.

 

[Brobzoid]

Yes there was a huge debate obviously, since it changes most of the perceptions we had thus far, and it's not like we scandinavians have not invested plenty of political capital in the idea of nurture over nature and the "blank slate".

And it's not like it was the science that was discredited, he was just accused of having an "agenda". Nothing stuck, and it very much remains a relevant program.

I disagree, the discussion was largely about norwegian research methodology and whether or not they were a bunch of softies due to their large governmental funding. You should read Isabelle Dussauge's response to the book published by the creators of the television show, if you haven't already.

edit: it's available here: http://kilden.forskningsradet.no/binfil/download.php?did=7541

 

[SquiddyCracker]

4 unhealthy movements thread, turns into MRA circle jerk. Welp.

I'm just going to go ahead and make a MRA thread, people need to talk this stuff out and get it out of their system.

 

[lopaz]

Rape only ever gets fuzzy when it involves two people who are not capable of giving consent.

Specifically, I refer to ambiguous situations. There was a propaganda push in my youth that said "no means no" and I think we can all agree with that. But what if she simply doesn't object when a man comes on strongly, and he leads her into sex? What if they are both blind drunk? What if she's married and may have a motive to lie to cover her indiscretion?

 

[JeTmAn81]

in office settings, ALL but the top few jobs are going to a growing majority of women who are also being better compensated. Make of it what you will, but nothing you believe in or say changes these facts.

Aside from anecdotal evidence derived from your own place of work, are there any credible research sources you're basing this opinion on?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Specifically, I refer to ambiguous situations. There was a propaganda push in my youth that said "no means no" and I think we can all agree with that. But what if she simply doesn't object when a man comes on strongly, and he leads her into sex? What if they are both blind drunk? What if she's married and may have a motive to lie to cover her indiscretion?

What about these situations? What light do you think such examples shed on how pervasive a problem rape is in society?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Aside from anecdotal evidence derived from your own place of work, are there any credible research sources you're basing this opinion on?

A quick search about the gender gap does seem to suggest that young women seem to be graduating more and there is some talk that they are also fairing better post-graduation. However, we're still very early on in acquiring such data, so it's hard to really draw any meaningful conclusions.

The jury is still out completely on established professionals. Data from a couple of years ago suggests male professionals 10 - 15 years into their careers are still earning significantly more. But, perhaps that too will shift as this generation of professional women ages?

Time will tell.

Edit: Apologies for the double posting, there.

 

[Metrotab]

I've heard that in some Scandinavian countries prostitution immediately implies "violence against women" (rape?) legally. I've always found that a bit of an extremist viewpoint, and is probably the only example of "extremist feminism" in action that I can think of.

 

[lopaz]

What about these situations? What light do you think such examples shed on how pervasive a problem rape is in society?

They show the scope for philosophical variations in peoples' view of the definition of the word rape, and the standards of proof that should be required in court to prove a rape charge. What this means is that the rape statistics can be skewed according to various people's interpretations. Given the virulent misandry of modern feminist writers, I would not be surprised if they are using liberal definitions of both the word, and interpretations of verdicts in the courts.

 

[jorma]

I've heard that in some Scandinavian countries prostitution immediately implies "violence against women" (rape?) legally. I've always found that a bit of an extremist viewpoint, and is probably the only example of "extremist feminism" in action that I can think of.

It's not true. It's a sex crime to buy sex (selling is legal), but it's not considered a violent crime.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

They show the scope for philosophical variations in peoples' view of the definition of the word rape, and the standards of proof that should be required in court to prove a rape charge. What this means is that the rape statistics can be skewed according to various people's interpretations. Given the virulent misandry of modern feminist writers, I would not be surprised if they are using liberal definitions of both the word, and interpretations of verdicts in the courts.

Where are we going with this, though? Is the suggestion that rape isn't a real threat in society due to using the term too broadly? Is the suggestion that broad usage of the term allows for false rape accusations to be so believable that this presents a bigger threat to society than rape? I'm not sure exactly where this conversation is going.

 

[Devolution]

They show the scope for philosophical variations in peoples' view of the definition of the word rape, and the standards of proof that should be required in court to prove a rape charge. What this means is that the rape statistics can be skewed according to various people's interpretations. Given the virulent misandry of modern feminist writers, I would not be surprised if they are using liberal definitions of both the word, and interpretations of verdicts in the courts.

That's rich. Like who?

 

[richiek]

4 unhealthy movements thread, turns into MRA circle jerk. Welp.

I ventured into the Mens Rights section of Reddit once. I felt dirty after reading it. Now it's invaded GAF. Just great.

 

[SquiddyCracker]

New threads for new discussions:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=487104

I tried to be impartial in creating that men rights thread.

 

[Devolution]

I ventured into the Mens Rights section of Reddit once. I felt dirty after reading it. Now it's invaded GAF. Just great.

It's a lot of anti-women sentiment wrapped up in rhetoric. The only true issues I've seen for myself are family court law but instead of focusing on that and striving to make the process more fair it's a lot of just hateful screeds and ranting. It's a joke.

 

[Jado]

4 unhealthy movements thread, turns into MRA circle jerk. Welp.

Can't speak for everyone here, but I thought myself level-headed and presented a fair case for my own argument with solid sources. I certainly haven't hurled any insults or made disgusting claims about feminism, whereas some of the folks arguing against me have made some pretty nasty assumptions about me and what I stand for.

Aside from anecdotal evidence derived from your own place of work, are there any credible research sources you're basing this opinion on?

Sure. See some links below. Overall pay still favors men, but only because the average i being skewed upward by an older generation of males. Gen Y women earn more than their young male counterparts.

Women Now Earning More Bachelor's and Graduate Degrees Than Men
http://www.good.is/post/women-now-earning-more-bachelor-s-and-graduate-degrees-than-men/

Women Earning More Doctoral Degrees Than Men in U.S.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/20/education/20iht-educBriefs20.html

For Young Earners in Big City, a Gap in Women’s Favor
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html?pagewanted=all

Young Women's Pay Exceeds Male Peers
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704421104575463790770831192.html

Young women now earn more than men (UK article)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/young-women-now-earn-more-than-men-2364675.html

 

[jorma]

I disagree, the discussion was largely about norwegian research methodology and whether or not they were a bunch of softies due to their large governmental funding. You should read Isabelle Dussauge's response to the book published by the creators of the television show, if you haven't already.

edit: it's available here: http://kilden.forskningsradet.no/binfil/download.php?did=7541

Ok remember that what makes this controversial is that these people are and were all getting gender science funding on the premise of "nature 0%" and "nurture 100%" They were all very open about their opinions on that and that our identity as human beings could not possibly be a combination of both. When that theory fails to measure up with actual science, of course storms of shit will be had. And while complaints were filed, they were all dismissed.

 

[lopaz]

That's rich. Like who?

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/06/27/misandry-a-reading-list/

long enough list for you?

 

[Devolution]

http://www.the-spearhead.com/2010/06/27/misandry-a-reading-list/

long enough list for you?

Linking the spearhead. LMAO.

 

[lopaz]

Linking the spearhead. LMAO.

did the spearhead make up the titles of those books?

 

[JeTmAn81]

Sure. See some links below. Overall pay still favors men, but only because the average i being skewed upward by an older generation of males. Gen Y women earn more than their young male counterparts.

Women Now Earning More Bachelor's and Graduate Degrees Than Men
http://www.good.is/post/women-now-earning-more-bachelor-s-and-graduate-degrees-than-men/

Women Earning More Doctoral Degrees Than Men in U.S.
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/20/education/20iht-educBriefs20.html

For Young Earners in Big City, a Gap in Women’s Favor
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/03/nyregion/03women.html?pagewanted=all

Young Women's Pay Exceeds Male Peers
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052748704421104575463790770831192.html

Young women now earn more than men (UK article)
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/young-women-now-earn-more-than-men-2364675.html

Thanks for posting some sources. What I'm seeing here is that women are pursuing higher education more than men, leading to higher salaries, though in the country as a whole men still make more on average. But this doesn't support the conclusion that men's wages are being unfairly suppressed. If women are more educated, they deserve to earn more money.

 

[Karakand]

Can I start the white rights movement official thread?

 

[Jado]

I don't think men's wages are being suppressed. My argument is that since the 1980s, school has been restructured in a way that's bad for boys, who then grow up into failures. Even women are writing articles about the lack of "good men" for marriage and serious relationships (educated, successful, steadily employed).

Can I start the white rights movement official thread?

Why isn't this trolling shit bannable? I'm not even white. Stop posting if you have nothing of use to contribute.

 

[lopaz]

I don't think men's wages are being suppressed. My argument is that since the 1980s, school has been restructured in a way that's bad for boys, who then grow up into failures.

I'd agree, and in particular like to highlight that feminism is entrenched into higher education

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Can I start the white rights movement official thread?

Combine it with mens rights and you ha- oh nevermind we already have the Republican party.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

I don't think men's wages are being suppressed. My argument is that since the 1980s, school has been restructured in a way that's bad for boys, who then grow up into failures. Even women are writing articles about the lack of "good men" for marriage and serious relationships (educated, successful, steadily employed).

Where can I read more about men drawing the short straw in regards to education?

 

[[Clark Gable]]

Feminist( not on the list? dumb), I wish I could write my disgust and how much I loathe them without getting banned.

 

[Jado]

Where can I read more about men drawing the short straw in regards to education?

Boys Adrift: The Five Factors Driving the Growing Epidemic of Unmotivated Boys and Underachieving Young Men
http://www.amazon.com/Boys-Adrift-Ep...dp/0465072100/

Why Boys Fail: Saving Our Sons from an Educational System That's Leaving Them Behind
http://www.amazon.com/Why-Boys-Fail-...dp/0814420176/

The Trouble with Boys: A Surprising Report Card on Our Sons, Their Problems at School, and What Parents and Educators Must Do
http://www.amazon.com/The-Trouble-Bo...dp/0307381293/

http://www.prb.org/articles/2007/crossoverinfemalemalecollegeenrollmentrates.aspx