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720p vs 1080p for gaming?

>>>A good example is pc gaming. The resolution makes a huge difference and AA matters much more at higher resolutions. <<<

The opposite is true. The more resolution there is, the smaller the "stairsteps" are. If you were to increase resolution to the limits of human vision, (not happening any time soon at a good viewing distance) AA and non-AA rendering would become indistinguishable where jaggies are concerned.
Try this. Make a 5 pixel wide circle in Photoshop, then make another the same size with AA turned off. Then try the same comparison with a 2,000 pixel circle. Then compare the 5 pixel with AA to the 2,000 pixel without AA.
 
>>>PDZ (and possibly a few others) output 1080i already. At least it says so on the box. I'm sure it just scales up the 720p signal.<<<

The 360 console will scale all 720p games to 1080i. I prefer to play them at their native resolution, but the option is there. If they're not actually rendering PDZ at 1080, then the description on the packaging is deceptive at best.
Actually it reminds of the BC's supposed 720p, which I was angered to find out was really only 480p.
 
The EU did some measurements and research for their proposals about HD. They came out with a statement along the lines of - You can't tell the difference between 720p and 1080p at normal viewing distances on normal sized TVs.

Normal being 2-3 times screen diagonal and normal sized being up to around 50"


You will really only see obvious benefits on a projector or very large TV. and IMO that will be best for movies. I'll take 720p with more AA over 1080p with none.

The other question of course is - what form of 1080p? Current standards only support up to 24/30fps, and for games you'd want to support up to 60fps. Otherwise, 1080i/60 can deliver the same resolution as 1080p/30
 
Sitting in front of my 19 inch monitor at 1600 by 1200, I can distinguish individual pixels.
I can even distinguish things smaller than that, because I can see the fucking rainbowing due to the tiny scratches on my monitor.

Not scratches on the glass, but on the anti-glare coating.

How did I get those scratches?

I used monitor wipes.

FUCKING CHRIST.

Shits ruined my monitor. I've tried to remove the rest of the coating, so it doesn't look like a turd, but the shit stays ON.

I've tried

Alcohol
Ammonia
Bleach (NOT at the same time as Ammonia)
Acetone
Paint thinners

Anyway, bitch all you want, the human eye can tell the difference. If you can't, get glasses/laser eye surgery.
My eyes are fine, but getting worse, and I intend to get them zapped with lasers in a few years.
 
Jesus. I'm more confused than ever. This wouldn't even been an issue for me if 1080p TVs accepted 1080p inputs. I just have a hard time parting with the extra cash if I will need to upgrade in a couple years. I have a feeling I'll be happy spending less on a 720p set and getting the 1080p set in 3 years or so. At this point, anything would be a major upgrade from my 3 year old Wega Trinitron.
 
Brimstone said:
Since both XB360 and PS3 can handle 1080i
Xbox 360 can't handle 1080i. Max output is 1360x768. Anyway, the lack of AA in most Xbox 360 titles is a bigger concern than resolution.
 
cybamerc said:
Xbox 360 can't handle 1080i. Max output is 1360x768. Anyway, the lack of AA in most Xbox 360 titles is a bigger concern than resolution.

Well, people are going to be confused with that. Games CAN be outputted to 1080i but are upscaled from a 720 res. The difference between the PS3 and 360 is that games on the PS3 can be nativley made at 1080p and outputted to 1080p.
 
BlueTsunami said:
Well, people are going to be confused with that. Games CAN be outputted to 1080i but are upscaled from a 720 res. The difference between the PS3 and 360 is that games on the PS3 can be nativley made at 1080p and outputted to 1080p.


Microsoft is promoting minimum standards with XB360. Just like 5.1 surround is a minimum level audio wise MS is telling developers to shoot for. Ghost Recon on the 360 has 7.1 surround sound which is surpassing MS's minimal standard for audio.

The same goes with screen resolution. Microsoft is setting the goal of 1280 x 720 as the minimum resolution. The next step up in HDTV resolution is 1920 x 1080. I don't think any developer has targeted 1920 x 1080 yet.

The "i" and "p" basicly are just analog and digital. 1080i is analog 1920 x 1080, while 1080p is digital 1920 x 1080. The resolutions are the same. XB360 can't output at 1080p, but it can at 1080i, however it's still 1920 x 1080 just in the interlaced format. People have been playing video games in the interlaced format for decades.

I've seen a 1080i signal on a 1080p HDTV and it's gorgeous. Would a digital 1080p signal be better, of course, but 1080i is damn fine looking on a 1080p set. By the way, the majority of HDTV signals for TV shows are at 1080i. Only a handful broadcast at 720p.
 
>>>The "i" and "p" basicly are just analog and digital. 1080i is analog 1920 x 1080, while 1080p is digital 1920 x 1080. The resolutions are the same. XB360 can't output at 1080p, but it can at 1080i, however it's still 1920 x 1080 just in the interlaced format. People have been playing video games in the interlaced format for decades.<<<

Wow, it's amazing that I'm playing in 720p on my analog 24FW900 monitor through an analog VGA connection then.
Go read up on HD, PLEASE.
 
cybamerc said:
Xbox 360 can't handle 1080i. Max output is 1360x768. Anyway, the lack of AA in most Xbox 360 titles is a bigger concern than resolution.

I don't believe that's true. The 360 CAN render at 1920x1080 (and output at 1080i or scale down to 720p), but 720 is the minimum standard. Either way, it will scale to any of 480i/480p/720p/1080i for output.

The "i" and "p" basicly are just analog and digital.

No - they simply mean interlaced and progressive. Doesn't specify analog or digital.

Another thing worth noting is that most 1080i broadcast is not actualy 1920x1080, but 1440x1080 due to bandwidth restrictions (though a 1080p fixed pixel display would actually have 1920x1080 pixels).


Anyway - as far as my opinion on the whole discussion. 1080p would look better - but 720p/1080i both look great, few people have 1080p TVs, and there is no single standard for 1080p at 60Hz. Even if it weren't for those issues - the big question would be whether the extra resolution would be worth it for the performance hit or lower geometry that would be necessary to keep it running smoothly. I'd rather see more detailed geometry and textures at 720p than less detailed at 1080p. The jump to 720p/1080i is significant, the jump to 1080p is less significant and resources are better spent on using the existing real-estate better. If we begin to find that they are getting everything they want out of 720p with resources to spare, then yeah - lets jump up to 1440x1080 and give us native 1080i and 1080p, if a standard for it ever comes down the line.
 
Klotera:

> I don't believe that's true. The 360 CAN render at 1920x1080 (and output at 1080i or
> scale down to 720p), but 720 is the minimum standard.

The Xbox 360 may be able to render at 1920x1080 but what's the point when it can't output that res and seems to be struggling with AA even at 720p. As for which output formats it support you may very well be right. I don't own an Xbox 360 but I've been told it's max output is 1360x768 but maybe there's a dedicated 1080i option as well?

BTW, 720p isn't the minimum standard. The minimum M$ approved "HD" res seems to be 1000x600 with 2x AA.
 
cybamerc said:
Klotera:

> I don't believe that's true. The 360 CAN render at 1920x1080 (and output at 1080i or
> scale down to 720p), but 720 is the minimum standard.

The Xbox 360 may be able to render at 1920x1080 but what's the point when it can't output that res and seems to be struggling with AA even at 720p. As for which output formats it support you may very well be right. I don't own an Xbox 360 but I've been told it's max output is 1360x768 but maybe there's a dedicated 1080i option as well?

The xbox 360 can most definitely output at 1080i. I know because that's the resolution I've been running it in since I got it.
 
>>> As for which output formats it support you may very well be right. I don't own an Xbox 360 but I've been told it's max output is 1360x768 but maybe there's a dedicated 1080i option as well?<<<

You must not know anyone who uses it through component video. 1080i output is available with component cables, but not with VGA cables. 1360X768 is available with VGA cables, but not with component cables.
 
TAJ said:
>>>The "i" and "p" basicly are just analog and digital. 1080i is analog 1920 x 1080, while 1080p is digital 1920 x 1080. The resolutions are the same. XB360 can't output at 1080p, but it can at 1080i, however it's still 1920 x 1080 just in the interlaced format. People have been playing video games in the interlaced format for decades.<<<

Wow, it's amazing that I'm playing in 720p on my analog 24FW900 monitor through an analog VGA connection then.
Go read up on HD, PLEASE.

I was making a poor attempt at an analogy.
 
First, the article you link - the person writing clearly had an agenda. If he was simply trying to provide imformation, he wouldn't be so dead-set on tryin to refer to 1080i by a different name (the naming convention that has ALWAYS been used is how many lines are actually shown at a time, not how many are drawn in 1/60 of a second). 1080i does have 1080i lines of resolution, it simply RE-DRAWS every other 540 every 1/60 of a second producing the full 1080 line image at any given time. While a progressive signal is always better than interlaced at a given resolution, when you are talking different resolutions it becomes more complicated. Would you take 240p over 480i? Most people considered the jump in gaming from 240p to 480i to be a good thing. In reality, 1080i on a native 1080i device looks comparable to 720p on a native 720p device. When watching one on a non-native device, it comes down to the quality of the scaler.

Both camps have an agenda (interlaced vs progressive) and I just so happen to side with the progressive camp. Now you can call me a layman when it comes to HD tech and terminology but you wrote "the naming convention that has ALWAYS been used is how many lines are actually shown at a time, not how many are drawn in 1/60 of a second" now tell me if I'm understanding this correctly progressive draws all lines every 1/60 of a second and interlaced does this 1/60 x2 to draw a full image, now if this holds true "p" in any format would be much more appropriate for gaming and fast action then "i" would at almost any given time to my self. if I'm wrong enlighten me please.

Would you take 240p over 480i? Most people considered the jump in gaming from 240p to 480i to be a good thing.

I would make the jump to 480i only because that in itself is a large leap in basic visual quality, but I would prefer 480p over 480i any day of the week. I just think its a waste of time implementing interlaced formats such as 1080i, the world could live with out it and wait for the much more acceptable 1080p. but again that is just me and I don't know much :lol
 
480p jumping to 720p is the same visual jump that 720p jumping to 1080p would be. This would also be a big benefit for people who are using Big Screen TVs.

I'm also a little weirded out that people are fighting against 1080p as if its unnecessary and yet these same people are the ones that probably made front of Nintendo fans when they put down HD resolutions (or putting down 720p compared to 480p in particulare).
 
TAJ said:
>>>The "i" and "p" basicly are just analog and digital. 1080i is analog 1920 x 1080, while 1080p is digital 1920 x 1080. The resolutions are the same. XB360 can't output at 1080p, but it can at 1080i, however it's still 1920 x 1080 just in the interlaced format. People have been playing video games in the interlaced format for decades.<<<

Wow, it's amazing that I'm playing in 720p on my analog 24FW900 monitor through an analog VGA connection then.
Go read up on HD, PLEASE.
Isnt the FW900 capable of 1080p?
 
I've tried to put together a sample of how exactly 720p, 1080i, and 1080p would look with the same source.

If I've done it correctlly, you should be able to notice some difference in detail between the 720p and the 1080p, and also see how interlacing affects(or is it effects?) the image when in 1080i.

Here are the links:
http://www.nformant.net/GAFimages/720p.gif
http://www.nformant.net/GAFimages/1080i.gif
http://www.nformant.net/GAFimages/1080p.gif

As they're gifs, I don't know how well they turned out, exactly. Also note, the 720p image is roughly 1MB, and the 1080 images are about 2.2MB

Another note: The 1080i image actually uses three frames. The first frame interlaces the two frames from the 1080p picture, and the second frame interlaces the second frome from the 1080p picture as well as a third frame with the sphere thing further along.
 
BlueTsunami said:
480p jumping to 720p is the same visual jump that 720p jumping to 1080p would be. This would also be a big benefit for people who are using Big Screen TVs.


Well, your missing the point or haven't read my analysis. My point is that yes there is a huge jump in detail from 720p to 1080p but at normal viewing distances your eyeballs cannot resolve the difference. If my analysis is valid then there is no point in upgrading your hdtv to 1080p just for the extra resolution that it affords.

It should be noted that 1080p native devices will have other advantages. Newer tech so better scalers/higher contrast rations/lower inter pixel gaps etc...
 
gofreak said:
*raises hand*

When I'm playing on a projector, of course it's dark, but on a TV downstairs the lights are up most of the time. I'd say the latter is the norm for most people. You cannot assume certain conditions when working out a resolution standard, you have to cater for as many situations as possible (and there are SO many variables at play here). Viewing with good lighting is not a corner case here.

Just thinking about the lighting here. Brightish indoor lighting that still affords reasonable viewing of the display is at least a order of magnitude dimmer that outside lighting so the current figure for cpd (30) still stands.
 
cyberheater said:
Well, your missing the point or haven't read my analysis. My point is that yes there is a huge jump in detail from 720p to 1080p but at normal viewing distances your eyeballs cannot resolve the difference. If my analysis is valid then there is no point in upgrading your hdtv to 1080p just for the extra resolution that it affords.

It should be noted that 1080p native devices will have other advantages. Newer tech so better scalers/higher contrast rations/lower inter pixel gaps etc...

Do you know for a 27" HDTV you need to sit 3 feet away from the TV itself to fully see all the details 720p has to offer? I personally belive that HDTV itself is only really well suited for Big Screen TVs and projectors (PC monitors are different since your always sitting 1-2 feet away from the screen). Knowing that, 1080p on a projector or Big Screen TV can only benefit from 1080p. One thing I will admit though, I can see 1080p not being so important on sub 30" HDTVs. You may notice better picture quality but the HDTV is to small to really notice any dramatic detail differences.

With that said, 720p itself can in actuallity be unnecesary if I took your argument and ran with it. The point is, 1080p shows two times more pixels onscreen than 720p. It also makes the image much more crisper and just generally makes the image look better. Higher relolutions are not good just because more details can be added, there are other benefits to higher resolutions.

Another benefit for 1080p (if developers wish to support it) is the AA you get from downsampling the image to 720p. So you've got 1080p users being able to get a nice 1080p image but on the flipside you've got 720p users getting a nice 720p image with AA from being downsampled. In my personal opinion I find the jump from 720p to 1080p just as important as 480p to 720p.
 
Both camps have an agenda (interlaced vs progressive) and I just so happen to side with the progressive camp.

Exactly the problem - it shouldn't be about an agenda. It's about giving people the right information. However, some people feel the need to justify their own purchases or whatever. 720p vs. 1080i for video geeks has become the new console war. I find both standards to be visually appealing on good equipment. Which is why I try make sure people know that, in practice, they are comparable. There are plenty of other factors in video quality that should be considered. I can imagine someone coming in thinking 720p is better than 1080i and looking for a cheap HDTV buying a crappy $700 LCD (most of the off-brand "budget" LCDs are pretty poor, especially for gaming - despite their progressive image) that will actually look worse than a CRT for that same money simply based on this information.

now tell me if I'm understanding this correctly progressive draws all lines every 1/60 of a second and interlaced does this 1/60 x2 to draw a full image, now if this holds true "p" in any format would be much more appropriate for gaming and fast action then "i" would at almost any given time to my self. if I'm wrong enlighten me please.

Again, its only that simple when you're talking the same resolution. When you're talking different resolutions - it becomes more of a gray area. Thanks to the way the eye works, you don't actively notice the interlacing. People have been watching 480i for years and until HD came around and people started reading about the different resolutions, I never heard anyone say "wow - look at the combing". Now, people are reading the theory and then making claims based on it, not on actually seeing the results. I'd be surprised if you put a Sony super-fine pitch television next to an Aquos LCD (both playing native resolutions) and show it to someone that they'd say it looks any worse.

We can get into details - yes, fast motion (mostly vertical, which is less common than horizontal) can reduce the "percieved" resolution. In practice, this varies based on the amount of motion at different points and is often less noticeable thanks to the fact that cameras and the eye itself have natural blur associated with this motion. Worst case scenario - and we're talking full vertical motion and not accounting for natural blur - estimates have been a percieved resolution around 60% of the total resolution. With little vertical motion, you'll be seeing close to 100% of the full resolution. In practice, it varies and with the way your eye can adjust to the motion in the first place, 1080i ends up being fairly comparable to 720p in motion. In still images, the extra resolution helps.

As for combing (horizontal motion) - it simply becomes less and less of an issue as resolution goes up, because any combing causes less distortion in the image because it is combing at a much finer level of detail. At 1440x1080, it doesn't affect the image much.

At the end of the day, the difference between the two standards becomes less of an issue and other factors would be better for making a buying decision, since resolution is not the only thing that affects picture quality (think contrast, black levels, dynamic range, hell even aesthetics for some people). As long as you get a decent quality set - at either resolution - you'll be happy.

I would make the jump to 480i only because that in itself is a large leap in basic visual quality, but I would prefer 480p over 480i any day of the week. I just think its a waste of time implementing interlaced formats such as 1080i, the world could live with out it and wait for the much more acceptable 1080p

I said earlier that, at the same resolution, progressive is always better than interlaced - so no argument there. My point is that at different resolutions - its not as easy to say that. Hence, its not as simply as 720p > 1080i, or vice versa. In reality, they both look comparable - though in certain specific situations, each one excels. The fact that you say 480i is a significant jump of 240p proves that the little "p" isn't the only thing that matters. That said, the fact that the lower-res, but progressive 720p can stand up to 1080i also proves that the number isn't the only thing that matters either. It's a combination.

As for waiting for the much more acceptable 1080p, its not a matter of waiting. The standards have pretty much already been set for HD. And, I've always believed that BOTH standards were cop-outs. I'd make the same argument as you for the other format - that they shouldn't have wasted time on a resolution that's only 50% higher than standard resolution. But, they needed a progressive standard and it was too expensive a few years ago to make a fixed pixel device with 1900x1080 pixels (same reason they went interlaced rather than progressive on CRT HDTVs - price). Only now that prices are finally coming down on some of the fixed pixel devices are we seeing 1080p - but the standards have already been committed. It would be extremely difficult to try make 1080p a standard when most of the equipment out there right now is not compatible at all. Which is why, going back to my original point, a 1080p device with a good motion-adaptive de-interlacer running a 1080i signal is the next best thing.
 
Jewbacca said:
Hey guys you know what is even better than 1080p? Playing a good game.

O RLY?

YA RLY.

Know what's better than playing a good game? Evidently, going into threads you obviously aren't interested in and responding!

Yeah - we all love playing games - but I also find display technology to be interesting and enjoy discussing it.
 
Blaster1X said:
COD2 is 1080i native.

how do you know this, and what are you supposed to do about it? Do I have my TV set to 720p or 1080i?

If I enable 720p and 1080i in the dash, does it automatically use 1080i if supported? I didn't tick it, because some games say they support it while really being 720p, and I didn't want to do the 'scale up, scale down' thing

conker said:
Sitting in front of my 19 inch monitor at 1600 by 1200, I can distinguish individual pixels.
I can even distinguish things smaller than that, because I can see the fucking rainbowing due to the tiny scratches on my monitor.

how far away are you sitting from your monitor? I did mention 'normal viewing distances' as in for TV, not PCs. You are unlikely to sit 2ft away from a 50" widescreen HDTV
 
Yamaha98 said:
Simple, yet potential dumb question. Can one tell the difference between i & p in 1080 resolution?

depends :P


If you have a 1080p panel, and you are feeding it a 1080p source (or it can deinterlace properly from a progressively filmed interlace broadcast), then yes - it should be the same effect as going from 480i to 480p DVDs.

Thats assuming a 30fps update.
 
cyberheater said:
Just thinking about the lighting here. Brightish indoor lighting that still affords reasonable viewing of the display is at least a order of magnitude dimmer that outside lighting so the current figure for cpd (30) still stands.

I'm really not sure what this means, but there is no standard indoor lighting level, obviously. It's daytime now, if I switch on a light in here now, it's brighter inside than outside.

There are other questions about your figures though, as outlined earlier.
 
Ecrofirt said:
I've tried to put together a sample of how exactly 720p, 1080i, and 1080p would look with the same source.

If I've done it correctlly, you should be able to notice some difference in detail between the 720p and the 1080p, and also see how interlacing affects(or is it effects?) the image when in 1080i.

Here are the links:
http://www.nformant.net/GAFimages/720p.gif
http://www.nformant.net/GAFimages/1080i.gif
http://www.nformant.net/GAFimages/1080p.gif

As they're gifs, I don't know how well they turned out, exactly. Also note, the 720p image is roughly 1MB, and the 1080 images are about 2.2MB

Another note: The 1080i image actually uses three frames. The first frame interlaces the two frames from the 1080p picture, and the second frame interlaces the second frome from the 1080p picture as well as a third frame with the sphere thing further along.


The image quality I saw on the 1080p Sony HDTV from a 1080i source looked fantastic. The de-interlacer and other such technology helped to produced a razor sharp image. Maybe in its raw form the 1080i signal looks like your gif, but the final image quality was like your 1080p gif.

With a 1080p screen you get the best of both worlds. Want to watch something in 720p no problem. Want to watch something at 1080i, once again no problem becase the native resolution of the display is 1920 x 1080 so it fits the screen the screen size perfectly and the circutry cleans up the signal to produce a crisp image.

yamah98 said:
Simple, yet potential dumb question. Can one tell the difference between i & p in 1080 resolution?

Progressive is better, but interlaced gets the job done as it has so for decades. People can tell the difference, but progressive doesn't blow interlaced out of the water.

I think display technology plays a big role in this. HDTV's that use DLP or SXRD technology, produce images tremendously superior compared to what CRT projection sets output. Due to the high cost of manufacturing a large screen with LCD or Plasma technology I've never seen one of those at a native 1920 x 1080 resolution.
 
Klotera said:
Exactly the problem - it shouldn't be about an agenda. It's about giving people the right information. However, some people feel the need to justify their own purchases or whatever. 720p vs. 1080i for video geeks has become the new console war. I find both standards to be visually appealing on good equipment. Which is why I try make sure people know that, in practice, they are comparable. There are plenty of other factors in video quality that should be considered. I can imagine someone coming in thinking 720p is better than 1080i and looking for a cheap HDTV buying a crappy $700 LCD (most of the off-brand "budget" LCDs are pretty poor, especially for gaming - despite their progressive image) that will actually look worse than a CRT for that same money simply based on this information.



Again, its only that simple when you're talking the same resolution. When you're talking different resolutions - it becomes more of a gray area. Thanks to the way the eye works, you don't actively notice the interlacing. People have been watching 480i for years and until HD came around and people started reading about the different resolutions, I never heard anyone say "wow - look at the combing". Now, people are reading the theory and then making claims based on it, not on actually seeing the results. I'd be surprised if you put a Sony super-fine pitch television next to an Aquos LCD (both playing native resolutions) and show it to someone that they'd say it looks any worse.

We can get into details - yes, fast motion (mostly vertical, which is less common than horizontal) can reduce the "percieved" resolution. In practice, this varies based on the amount of motion at different points and is often less noticeable thanks to the fact that cameras and the eye itself have natural blur associated with this motion. Worst case scenario - and we're talking full vertical motion and not accounting for natural blur - estimates have been a percieved resolution around 60% of the total resolution. With little vertical motion, you'll be seeing close to 100% of the full resolution. In practice, it varies and with the way your eye can adjust to the motion in the first place, 1080i ends up being fairly comparable to 720p in motion. In still images, the extra resolution helps.

As for combing (horizontal motion) - it simply becomes less and less of an issue as resolution goes up, because any combing causes less distortion in the image because it is combing at a much finer level of detail. At 1440x1080, it doesn't affect the image much.

At the end of the day, the difference between the two standards becomes less of an issue and other factors would be better for making a buying decision, since resolution is not the only thing that affects picture quality (think contrast, black levels, dynamic range, hell even aesthetics for some people). As long as you get a decent quality set - at either resolution - you'll be happy.



I said earlier that, at the same resolution, progressive is always better than interlaced - so no argument there. My point is that at different resolutions - its not as easy to say that. Hence, its not as simply as 720p > 1080i, or vice versa. In reality, they both look comparable - though in certain specific situations, each one excels. The fact that you say 480i is a significant jump of 240p proves that the little "p" isn't the only thing that matters. That said, the fact that the lower-res, but progressive 720p can stand up to 1080i also proves that the number isn't the only thing that matters either. It's a combination.

As for waiting for the much more acceptable 1080p, its not a matter of waiting. The standards have pretty much already been set for HD. And, I've always believed that BOTH standards were cop-outs. I'd make the same argument as you for the other format - that they shouldn't have wasted time on a resolution that's only 50% higher than standard resolution. But, they needed a progressive standard and it was too expensive a few years ago to make a fixed pixel device with 1900x1080 pixels (same reason they went interlaced rather than progressive on CRT HDTVs - price). Only now that prices are finally coming down on some of the fixed pixel devices are we seeing 1080p - but the standards have already been committed. It would be extremely difficult to try make 1080p a standard when most of the equipment out there right now is not compatible at all. Which is why, going back to my original point, a 1080p device with a good motion-adaptive de-interlacer running a 1080i signal is the next best thing.

Well spoken and I can agree with the vast majority of your points, thank you for the great explanation. Oh and one reason I hated my ps2 was because only some games supported 480p i could tell the difference on my HD set, I'm guessing my eyes are just sensitive to it. :)
 
Cyberheater, you are forgetting a few variables...


First of all, a 720p or 1080p source will always look more accurate at its native resolution....this is independent of viewing distance....as good as scalers are today, an unscaled video signal will always look better than a scaled one, all things equal...

And then, of course, there is the fact that not all 720p or 1080p video images look the same even within the same type of technologies......DLP, LCD, LCOS, PDPs all have their own video "signature" regardless of resolution (I should know, I own three of those four TV tech)....contrast ratio, screen door effect, fill ratio, temporal resolution....all this combined is as important to video quality and sitting far enough away will not "fix" all problems a TV may/may not have in these areas...so it is somewhat unrevealing to make a blanket statement like "all 720p and 1080p TVs look the same as long as you are far enough away from the screen" without taking this into consideration as well..

Also know that with more pixel resolution comes the added ability to reproduce colors more accurately and the eye can pick up on more color resolution as well...

Then there is the other variable of TV manufacturers treating 1080p displays as their *Flagship* products and as such get the best screens, best electronics, scalers, connections ect....even within the same manfacturer and the same technology this can be true....Mitsubishi Diamond 1080p DLPs have different screens and scalers than Diamond 720p DLPs.....not to mention the xHD4 1080p DMD chip and HD2 720p DMD chip operate differently anyway (one with "wobulation" and one without), no equality there....

Again, the variable between TVs and TV technology are so great that you MUST view these products with your own eyes regardless with what the mathematical formula....


There is more to it that meets the eye, so to speak...

And for the record, I have a DLP front projector(720p) a Plasma display (720p) and a Qualia LCOS RPTV (1080p)......in all circumstances my 1080p gives me a better picture....especially color reproduction....so take that for what its worth...
 
Kleegamefan said:
Also know that with more pixel resolution comes the added ability to reproduce colors more accurately and the eye can pick up on more color resolution as well...

Everything else seemed sound, but I have an issure with this statement when the native signal sent is less than the resolution of the display. I would love an exacmple where this is actually true. ;)
 
I have been to a few 1080p demos at CES 2004,2000 and 1997 (Sony, Sanyo, Toshiba, NEC, Matsushita, Silicon Image, GLV and others I forget) that have mentioned more resolution allows more natural transitions between colors.....I also saw this with my own eyes.....no link for you, sorry...
 
Kleegamefan said:
I have been to a couple of 1080p demos at CES 2004,2000 and 1997 (Sony, Sanyo, Toshiba, NEC, Matsushita and others I forget) that have mentioned more resolution allows more natural transitions between colors.....I also saw this with my own eyes.....no link for you, sorry...


You are talking about film to video I presume? Or videoed real life? I was talking about video games (you know, per thread title).

Specifically where something like X360 is outputting 720p native signal and somehow you are suggesting with your post that that signal will look more "color accurate" on a 1080p set.
 
Shogmaster said:
You are talking about film to video I presume? Or videoed real life? I was talking about video games (you know, per thread title).

Specifically where something like X360 is outputting 720p native signal and somehow you are suggesting with your post that that signal will look more "color accurate" on a 1080p set.

That would fall into the differences between native resolution and scaled video....I covered that in my post already....
 
Kleegamefan said:
That would fall into the differences between native resolution and scaled video....I covered that in my post already....

Regardless, you have to agree that the assumption would be false, yes?
 
If you have a 720p source being displayed on a 720p display and then you have a 1080p source being displayed on a 1080p display, the 1080p source on the 1080p display can have more accurate color AFAIK..

This would be true of video, film or game sources, of course...


Are you implying this is not the case?......I would be genuinely intrested in your counterpoint to this :)
 
Kleegamefan said:
If you have a 720p source being displayed on a 720p display and then you have a 1080p source being displayed on a 1080p display, the 1080p source on the 1080p display can have more accurate color AFAIK..

This would be true of video, film or game sources, of course...

Stop dnacing around the issue man. You know as well as I do that > 95% of the X360 and PS3 games will be outputting 720p native signal. Who give a crap about those tiny amount of 1080p games? You want to be annoyed > 95% of the time with the next gen gaming experience your TV just for that < 5% @ 1080p?
 
No street fighter salsa going on here....

I clearly stated, *FOUR TIMES* what I meant.....sorry if that irks you...

And by the way, nice counterpoint :D
 
Vustadumas said:
PDZ (and possibly a few others) output 1080i already. At least it says so on the box. I'm sure it just scales up the 720p signal.

On Team Xbox 720p is marked but not 1080i.

High Definition TV (HDTV): 1080i
1080i is a High Definition TV (HDTV) standard displayed using interlaced scanning at a 1920 wide by 1080 high pixel resolution.

High Definition TV (HDTV): 720p
720p is a High Definition TV (HDTV) standard displayed using progressive scanning at a 1280 wide by 720 high pixel resolution.

http://games.teamxbox.com/xbox-360/1170/Perfect-Dark-Zero/


I assume like you've said PDZ is rendered by the GPU at 1280 x 720 and upscaled to fit 1080i's resolution. Putting 1080i on the box does seem a bit misleading when the GPU is outputting in 720p resolution.
 
Kleegamefan said:
No street fighter salsa going on here....

I clearly stated, *FOUR TIMES* what I meant.....sorry if that irks you...

And by the way, nice counterpoint :D

Go ALL THE BACK to my first post in this thread. I said everything you posted seem sound except for that one point. I brought no salsa to this party. :P

Perhaps you might want to keep to the topic and tailor your posts about the HDTVs to gaming, ya? Ya.
 
>>>Wow, it's amazing that I'm playing in 720p on my analog 24FW900 monitor through an analog VGA connection then.
Go read up on HD, PLEASE.

Isnt the FW900 capable of 1080p?<<<

Yeah, it handles that very well. The sweet spot is 1920X1200@80, so 1080p@72 (No judder, less flicker? Yes, please) would be very crisp. It can display 2304X1440@80, but the image would be less crisp from pixels bleeding together. (more detailed, just softer)
 
OK Shog, its like this...

First of all, I was trying to be "cute" with the reference to the Street Fighter Salsa thread because you said I was trying to "dance around the issue"

and 2nd of all, a pixel (picture element) can represent a single color.....a 720p display can have ~ 900 thousand single color pixels per frame and a 1080p display can display over 2 million single color pixels per frame....that is more color resolution, by defination....

Look, I know your history of getting all bent out of shape and I don't want to tip you off the deep end but....are you trying to make a point here or something?

I am still waiting for your counter point....truely I am.....I am not going to fight you in this thread so dont even try...
 
Kleegamefan said:
OK Shog, its like this...

First of all, I was trying to be "cute" with the reference to the Street Fighter Salsa thread because you said I was trying to "dance around the issue"

and 2nd of all, a pixel (picture element) can represent a single color.....a 720p display can have ~ 900 thousand single color pixels per frame and a 1080p display can display over 2 million single color pixels per frame....that is more color resolution, by defination....

Look, I know your history of getting all bent out of shape and I don't want to tip you off the deep end but....are you trying to make a point here or something?

I am still waiting for your counter point....truely I am.....I am not going to fight you in this thread so dont even try...

That is all nice and fluffy, but you keep missing my point! The topic sez: "720p vs 1080p for gaming?"

See that last word? Gaming. That means discussion of "1080p display can display over 2 million single color pixels per frame....that is more color resolution, by defination...." is about relevant to the topic as how much faster your car is to the 1/4 mile than mine since most X360 and PS3 games will be doing 720p, not 1080p.

So all I'm saying is: Keep on topic! :P
 
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