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[MHubert]

He doesn't have to believe anything. He either knows or doesn"t know. If we use the term so loosely it hampers the discussion, and yes that's the immediate flaw for me in that problem.

I don't think you understood the example, then. The premise is that he 'thinks' that he doesn't know the answer, therefore he doesn't believe what he thinks of as a mere guess, to be the correct answer. In fact, I don't think Radfords argument holds up, either, but it's kinda funny that you are shooting down the part of the article that actually tries to support your claim that you can have knowledge without belief.

Belief and knowledge operate on seperate axis. If there is evidence, again, no believing is necessary.

You would still have to believe that your evidence, and the conclusions you make based on said evidence, is correct - and yes that qualifies as belief in every way. How do you know that you know, exactly?

 

[MHubert]

You are free to provide a few examples of when religion has provided a better model of reality, than science.

Now why would you want me to do that? It's not exactly relevant to my point

 

[RJMacready73]

To everyone outside of America this does not surprise us one bit, y'all seem to be about 2 presidents away from a Christian evangelical hellhole that would make Afghanistan a liberal paradise, my mind boggles that so many of you fall for those megachurch scams, how in the holy fuck does a congregation of 10,000 stand with their hands in the air singing about Jesus whilst some Satan looking cunt asks for donations for a new learjet and nobody stops and goes eh!?

 

[arkhamguy123]

To everyone outside of America this does not surprise us one bit, y'all seem to be about 2 presidents away from a Christian evangelical hellhole that would make Afghanistan a liberal paradise, my mind boggles that so many of you fall for those megachurch scams, how in the holy fuck does a congregation of 10,000 stand with their hands in the air singing about Jesus whilst some Satan looking cunt asks for donations for a new learjet and nobody stops and goes eh!?

Brainwashing as a kid. Very effectual. And been working for 100s of years with a variety of things outside of religion.

"Well what about when they grow up?"
Well theres a lot of factors here but also American culture is vacuous and myopic. Young adults are more likely to be concerned about the bachelor, beer, and tik tok than questioning their worldviews and versing themselves in science and fact.

Souce: I'm an American. Born and raised.

 

[kurisu_1974]

I don't think you understood the example, then. The premise is that he 'thinks' that he doesn't know the answer, therefore he doesn't believe what he thinks of as a mere guess, to be the correct answer. In fact, I don't think Radfords argument holds up, either, but it's kinda funny that you are shooting down the part of the article that actually tries to support your claim that you can have knowledge without belief.

You would still have to believe that your evidence, and the conclusions you make based on said evidence, is correct - and yes that qualifies as belief in every way. How do you know that you know, exactly?

I understood fine, it is just a bad thought experiment that is very uncarefully worded. Like I said it's just semantics at this point. And I don't have to believe in something to know something, but I guess something gets lost in translation too as I tried to explain this to you already or I thought I tried to at least.

 

[Nydius]

I guess I'm in the 20%. 25 years ago I met a coworker who was a Theravada Buddhist and found out there was a monastery in town that I never knew existed. He took me there to visit where I got to know the monks and something about the Theravada Buddhist philosophy just clicked. Possibly because it specifically eschews the concept of a central deity or the concerns about why or how we came to be and focuses only on the fact that we're here now and how we act while we're here is more important than why we are.

Deity theists see this is as less spiritual or religious than believing in a divine deity but I disagree with their opinion. Spirituality and religion doesn't necessarily need to revolve around a God (or Gods).

 

[MHubert]

I don't have to believe in something to know something

Try to give me an example of something you know that transcends any form of believing.

 

[Deleted member 1159]

To everyone outside of America this does not surprise us one bit, y'all seem to be about 2 presidents away from a Christian evangelical hellhole that would make Afghanistan a liberal paradise, my mind boggles that so many of you fall for those megachurch scams, how in the holy fuck does a congregation of 10,000 stand with their hands in the air singing about Jesus whilst some Satan looking cunt asks for donations for a new learjet and nobody stops and goes eh!?

All your friends and family are doing it, all your cognitive biases/shortcomings condition you to ignore the stuff that seems off or doesn't make sense, tribalism, fear of the unknown, not wanting to admit you're wrong/sunk cost fallacy…

As someone raised Mormon and who still has family completely devoted to Mormonism, it's understandable. Completely batshit now on the outside looking in, but I get why people have a hard time letting go. Hitokage here on GAF was my first actual experience meeting someone who was totally invested in Mormonism while seeming to be totally normal and super bright, then walking away...usually people like that are hand waved as weak or deceived for leaving. It was eye opening to see him considering how sheltered I was, even being raised in the San Francisco area. RIP friend.

 

[TheDreadBaron]

Try to give me an example of something you know that transcends any form of believing.

Your everything requires belief argument is pretty weak. You're comparing believing that the reality you see in front of your eyes is in fact real to believing in fantastical stories without any kind of evidence at all. One requires faith, the other is just baseline trusting your own senses, which you could try to argue is a kind of belief but the two are in no way equivalent.

 

[kurisu_1974]

Try to give me an example of something you know that transcends any form of believing.

I just don't think belief is a prerequisite for knowing, and you do. I don't know what more there is to discuss. Examples are not going to convince you I'm sure.

 

[64gigabyteram]

It is an instillation of core values that make the society greater for what it is.

an instillation of core values that don't really require a belief in god to work....
Nuclear family is cool and all that but you don't need to believe in a sky daddy just to make it work

 

[64gigabyteram]

While I still have my doubts, like any human, I'm just grateful to not see the world as cold and empty as I once did. It centers and comforts me.

.... It STILL IS cold and empty. You're just using your belief in god to blind you from the fact it's kind of shitty

The difference between being religious and atheist is with one you have to base your entire life around this deity you think is real or not real, and with the other one you just... live your life with no strings attached. Youtubers may make it seem like this life where you only exist to disprove God, or it's some shallow life where the lack of anything to believe in makes you depressed, but really it's just a life where you... do your own thing.
If you need a God to make your life have meaning, you're doing this life thing wrong.

 

[lem0n]

Yeah, and it shows. I can't really blame them though, so many of them were indoctrinated as a child or made to believe you can't be a good person without it.

 

[Days like these...]

What percent simply don't care one way or another? I'm not talking about agnostics who don't claim to know but people who simply don't care.

 

[64gigabyteram]

What percent simply don't care one way or another? I'm not talking about agnostics who don't claim to know but people who simply don't care.

those are atheists.

 

[Haggard]

There are people eating tidepods for retarded social media challenges, there are even idiots who think the earth is flat nearly 60 years after the first moon landing so it's not that hard to believe that there are still so many medieval minds around believing in an invisible all knowing sky daddy while watching news about new wars and catastrophes every day.

But the trends are pretty solidly pointing downwards the further developed a country is... Almost as if good education and believing in ghost stories were contradictory.

 

[Days like these...]

those are atheists.

No they are not. Atheist take the position that there is no Creator. I'm talking about the people who when someone tells them there is no God they reply I don't care and when someone tells them God is Lord and Savior reply all the same I don't care.

 

[MHubert]

Your everything requires belief argument is pretty weak. You're comparing believing that the reality you see in front of your eyes is in fact real to believing in fantastical stories without any kind of evidence at all. One requires faith, the other is just baseline trusting your own senses, which you could try to argue is a kind of belief but the two are in no way equivalent.

I haven't argued that at all. I responded to someone saying that basing your judgement on evidence alone is somehow the absence of belief, which is something I think is absurd. I specifically stated that I didn't think religious people see atheists as having the same form of belief.
How come it is so hard to have a discussion about knowledge and belief without having to spend 80% of your breath dismissing a forest of strawmen from people accusing you of having a religious agenda and being an esotericist? Sorry if I sound annoyed.

I just don't think belief is a prerequisite for knowing, and you do. I don't know what more there is to discuss. Examples are not going to convince you I'm sure.

Fair enough.

 

[Haggard]

Try to give me an example of something you know that transcends any form of believing.

1 + 1 = 2
Pretty much anything following scientific methods.

 

[MHubert]

1 + 1 = 2
Pretty much anything following scientific methods.

Let's start with 1 + 1 = 2

I know this sounds cheeky and you will not like this, but can you prove it?

 

[TheDreadBaron]

I haven't argued that at all. I responded to someone saying that basing your judgement on evidence alone is somehow the absence of belief, which is something I think is absurd. I specifically stated that I didn't think religious people see atheists as having the same form of belief.
How come it is so hard to have a discussion about knowledge and belief without having to spend 80% of your breath dismissing a forest of strawmen from people accusing you of having a religious agenda and being an esotericist? Sorry if I sound annoyed.

Fair enough.

Ok, well if you have evidence that you can examine and investigate with your own senses the only belief you need to have is that you are sane and your perception of the world is sound. That's nothing like religious belief, so when you insist that it still counts as belief, albeit a different form I have to agree its a very different form, and like the other fellow said it's just a semantic argument at this point. I would argue that insisting it must be called a belief even though we all agree it's a very different form is just confusing because we're talking about two different concepts with a weak connection between them.

 

[EviLore]

Let's start with 1 + 1 = 2

I know this sounds cheeky and you will not like this, but can you prove it?

 

[It's all in the wrist]

Let's start with 1 + 1 = 2

I know this sounds cheeky and you will not like this, but can you prove it?

Checkmate, atheists.

 

[MHubert]

As I said, I know it sounds cheeky. My point is that unless you knew how to prove it from the top of your head, you would have to rely on the belief that someone was able to prove it for you, or even that such a proof would exist at all.
1 +1 = 2 is a pretty good example of how we accept belief to be ingrained in knowledge, since its something that basically everyone holds to be true, but so few are able to actually prove. Without allowing belief to be a basic component of knowledge, teaching math at elementary school would be almost impossible.

Checkmate, atheists.

Nah, mate.

 

[Jsisto]

We live in a (mostly) secular society. America being the melting pot that it is, and quite uniquely so, that is a good thing for social cohesion.

 

[SoulChamber]

You're wasting your time. People who were indoctrinated into religion as children are highly unlikely to part from it after like ~25 on. Think of it like cement. It hardens every 5 or so years until you need high power construction equipment to even crack it.

Brainwashing as a kid. Very effectual. And been working for 100s of years with a variety of things outside of religion.

"Well what about when they grow up?"
Well there's a lot of factors here but also American culture is vacuous and myopic. Young adults are more likely to be concerned about the bachelor, beer, and tik tok than questioning their worldviews and versing themselves in science and fact.

Source: I'm an American. Born and raised.

Yeah, and it shows. I can't really blame them though, so many of them were indoctrinated as a child or made to believe you can't be a good person without it.

These. Though with things like science, the internet & technology nowadays, a lot of people are waking up; Mostly Millennials like myself (I'm an older Millennial at 40). The Zoomer Generation (or Gen Z) happens to be the least religious generations of all.

And you certainly don't need a man-made deity or a man-made fairy tale book (being the Bible, Quran, etc.) to be a good person. Morality has existed long before either of them had.

There are even people who spoken up about bad experiences about Christianity, Islam, etc. & have gotten out of religion altogether. Look at some subreddits on Reddit such as r/Agnostic, r/ExChristian, r/Atheism, r/TrueAtheism & r/ReligiousFruitcake & the site called exchristian.net as examples.

 

[01011001]

Even amongst Democrats its as high as 72%.

that's sad... mass delusion still being that prominent in a developed western country

 

[It's all in the wrist]

These. Though with things like science, the internet & technology nowadays, a lot of people are waking up; Mostly Millennials like myself (I'm an older Millennial at 40). The Zoomer Generation (or Gen Z) happens to be the least religious generations of all.

And you certainly don't need a man-made deity or a man-made fairy tale book (being the Bible, Quran, etc.) to be a good person. Morality has existed long before either of them had.

There are even people who spoken up about bad experiences about Christianity, Islam, etc. & have gotten out of religion altogether. Look at some subreddits on Reddit such as r/Agnostic, r/ExChristian, r/Atheism, r/TrueAtheism & r/ReligiousFruitcake & the site called exchristian.net as examples.

R/atheism is a shithole. It's a real circle jerk. I get similar vibes from people that stop talking to their family because they support a republican.

I agree that it's brainwashing, but in many cases, it comes from a place of love. My dad was devastated when I told him my beliefs, but he's glad that I told him.

Parents can screw up their kids on accident, with or without religion. I can't blame religion when in many cases, it provides a decent framework for a good life opposed to having most parents just wing it lol.

 

[MHubert]

Ok, well if you have evidence that you can examine and investigate with your own senses the only belief you need to have is that you are sane and your perception of the world is sound. That's nothing like religious belief, so when you insist that it still counts as belief, albeit a different form I have to agree its a very different form, and like the other fellow said it's just a semantic argument at this point. I would argue that insisting it must be called a belief even though we all agree it's a very different form is just confusing because we're talking about two different concepts with a weak connection between them.

It's not about insisting that it must be called belief. It is belief, period. While we might agree that having a religious belief is different from say, believing that evidence presented to you is correct, it's not so different as to classify the latter as being merely a matter of semantics and it certainly doesn't mean that we are talking about two different concepts altogether. Again, why is that supposed to be a problem?

 

[TheDreadBaron]

It's not about insisting that it must be called belief. It is belief, period. While we might agree that having a religious belief is different from say, believing that evidence presented to you is correct, it's not so different as to classify the latter as being merely a matter of semantics and it certainly doesn't mean that we are talking about two different concepts altogether. Again, why is that supposed to be a problem?

It's a problem in my view because it's often put that way with the intention of conflating religious faith with secular belief in reality. From my perspective they're opposing views, but they are called the same thing in order to make the argument "see, it takes just as much faith to believe in science!" As a defense of blind faith, which is indefensible so people start redefining words.

 

[nkarafo]

Religion is a genious idea. Its a tool that can be used by all and make everyone happy.

Commoners have something to make them feel better (immortality, someone watching over you, the answer to everything you don't understand, the eternal prize of paradise for themselves and the ultimate punishment of hell for those who deserve it) and rulers have something to control and manipulate the population with, at all times.

Whoever originally thought of taking advantage of people's ignorance and fear of the inevitable death like that, had greater impact in this world (for better or worse) than any other historically significant individual. And we will probably never know who that person was. Kudos to that guy.

 

[Dr. Claus]

As I said, I know it sounds cheeky. My point is that unless you knew how to prove it from the top of your head, you would have to rely on the belief that someone was able to prove it for you, or even that such a proof would exist at all.
1 +1 = 2 is a pretty good example of how we accept belief to be ingrained in knowledge, since its something that basically everyone holds to be true, but so few are able to actually prove. Without allowing belief to be a basic component of knowledge, teaching math at elementary school would be almost impossible.


Nah, mate.

It doesn't "need" to be proven by people as it was already proven. We can just refer back to the original proof. This is the entire basis of theorems.

 

[EruditeHobo]

Not at all. I'm saying that evidence doesn't spawn a given phenomenon into existence. I think most would accept the premise that gravity was real before any discourse about its viability as something provable.

Yeah and they believed lightning bolts were "real" too, they just attributed them to Zeus or whatever. That's not a difference that can be hand waved away, it's not about "what's real", it's about sufficient reason to justify belief. And that only happens with evidence.

All religious people agree with this, by the way, in just about every single other aspect of their lives... but not when it comes to religion, for some convenient reason.

I have no idea.

Great. That makes it easy then.

I'm a firm believer in the scientific method, for what it is intended for anyways, and I'm only here arguing because some people are claiming that trust in the scientific method somehow transcends any form of belief...

No, they are saying trust in the scientific method transcends faith. And there's a big difference no matter which words you use for these concepts, because everyone believes in something in terms of trusting experience & evidence, but not everyone has faith -- surely not the type required to believe in a god -- in something.

 

[EruditeHobo]

double

 

[kurisu_1974]

those are atheists.

No, that is called apatheism; people that don't care about god existing because it has zero effect on their lives.

 

[FunkMiller]

Let's start with 1 + 1 = 2

I know this sounds cheeky and you will not like this, but can you prove it?

Your entire thesis is based on disproving that human senses are capable of understanding objective truths. Thereby, you're trying to provide a space for the existence of god, by saying that we can never be sure of anything, so anything could exist.

Okay then.

Why don't you believe in Zeus? Odin? Ganesh?

If you question everything your senses tell you, why are you so sure those gods don't exist, but that the Christian god does?

What is the difference?

I can prove 1+1 very easily. You can't prove your god is any more less or more real than any other imagined construct.

 

[FunkMiller]

These. Though with things like science, the internet & technology nowadays, a lot of people are waking up; Mostly Millennials like myself (I'm an older Millennial at 40). The Zoomer Generation (or Gen Z) happens to be the least religious generations of all.

Gods are created by mankind to help cope with things beyond its understanding, and the fear of death.

Stands to reason that the more knowledge and understanding we gain about the universe, the less need there is for god.

The world is vastly less religious than it was a 100 years ago.

America is just a bit behind the curve as a western democracy. It'll catch up eventually. It won't be pretty while its doing it, but it will.

 

[RJMacready73]

Religion was invented by man as a way to cope with suddenly going from small hunter gatherer groups to large towns and eventually city states, we evolved far too quickly at that stage and needed something to unite all these groups who are now suddenly living on top of each other and what better way to unite them than to believe in the holy tree on that hill over there and hate those cunts who believe in the holy rock over in the next valley, it eventually morphed into modern religions... as a modern human living in the 21st century with a wealth of knowledge at your fingertips, believing in some magical sky daddy is just as ludicrous as thinking there's a toy workshop manned by elves up at the North Pole, both beliefs are exactly the same, only children have an excuse...

 

[Wildebeest]

I don't know about the USA being behind the curve, as they are on their own curve. What I see in the USA is a significant culture of "fake it until you make it". People pretending to be happy, wealthy, successful, spiritual, faithful, and so on, because appearance leads to the real thing. The actual mainstream acts of virtue signalling, you know. In many ways the Americans are exporting this culture, so are ahead of the curve. In other cultures, appearing to despair and struggle with how hard it is to believe in anything in religious teachings and how it all seems so hopeless and lacking meaning could be a way of signalling that someone is really serious about their religion, rather than the opposite. This can also be superficial.

Quite often, people think about things the wrong way to protect themselves. Take a classic question like, "if god is good and full of meaning, then why do so many meaningless bad things happen all the time?" An opinion might be that this question sounds childish because it is the sort of thing a child might ask. And therefore as an adult you have to push things like this to the side using whatever clever adult sounding methods you can because that is what a mature person would seem to do. But children are often more free to ask profound philosophical questions. If you cannot ask profound questions and treat them with the seriousness they deserve, then you cannot progress and really grow, but will be stunted, in a way. Even Jesus was claimed to have said that unless you learn to become like children, you can never enter heaven. So Christians who reject childish or immature questions are not only being superficial but are going against the most direct commands given to them by Christ.

 

[Fools idol]

Spacetime and what came before the big bang puts a fear of existence into me like no other thought does. Once you understand the mechanics of space time it gets very scary very quickly.

I went down the rabbit hole for many years with the 'consciousness is a simulation' theory, it pretty much destroyed my mental health for a few years as I was dealing with general depression and existential dread type feelings.

I don't believe in God, but I also don't know how to feel about all of the above, there has to be more out there, something after death. There just has to be.

As for the actual creation of religions, well, imo it was just men trying to control other, lesser men with the tool of fear and everlasting hellfire if you break the rules.

 

[RJMacready73]

Spacetime and what came before the big bang puts a fear of existence into me like no other thought does. Once you understand the mechanics of space time it gets very scary very quickly.

I went down the rabbit hole for many years with the 'consciousness is a simulation' theory, it pretty much destroyed my mental health for a few years as I was dealing with general depression and existential dread type feelings.

I don't believe in God, but I also don't know how to feel about all of the above, there has to be more out there, something after death. There just has to be.

As for the actual creation of religions, well, imo it was just men trying to control other, lesser men with the tool of fear and everlasting hellfire if you break the rules.

Why does there have to be? Does there have to be a place where beetles go after they get squished? What about mammals slightly higher up the intelligence chain.. say monkeys, do they goto monkey heaven? What makes us any different? We evolved from the same damn ancestors where did the magical sky daddy draw the line with homo sapiens when our ancient ancestors started using tools? Or when we made fire? Or did he decide to open the pearly gates once we built cathedrals in his honour?? See where I'm going with this? Don't worry yourself bud, you have 1 life on this rock hurtling through space and when it's over nobody will give a fuck and the universe will forget who you are so you may as well enjoy it before you're brutally murdered

 

[It's all in the wrist]

Why does there have to be? Does there have to be a place where beetles go after they get squished? What about mammals slightly higher up the intelligence chain.. say monkeys, do they goto monkey heaven? What makes us any different? We evolved from the same damn ancestors where did the magical sky daddy draw the line with homo sapiens when our ancient ancestors started using tools? Or when we made fire? Or did he decide to open the pearly gates once we built cathedrals in his honour?? See where I'm going with this? Don't worry yourself bud, you have 1 life on this rock hurtling through space and when it's over nobody will give a fuck and the universe will forget who you are so you may as well enjoy it before you're brutally murdered

This is what happens when you watch The Thing as a child.

 

[Days like these...]

Why does there have to be? Does there have to be a place where beetles go after they get squished? What about mammals slightly higher up the intelligence chain.. say monkeys, do they goto monkey heaven? What makes us any different? We evolved from the same damn ancestors where did the magical sky daddy draw the line with homo sapiens when our ancient ancestors started using tools? Or when we made fire? Or did he decide to open the pearly gates once we built cathedrals in his honour?? See where I'm going with this? Don't worry yourself bud, you have 1 life on this rock hurtling through space and when it's over nobody will give a fuck and the universe will forget who you are so you may as well enjoy it before you're brutally murdered

There has to be because existential dread!

 

[FunkMiller]

I don't believe in God, but I also don't know how to feel about all of the above, there has to be more out there, something after death. There just has to be.

Nope. You go back to the same place you came from before you were born.

But that's why we invented god… to help us cope with that fact.

 

[Haggard]

Let's start with 1 + 1 = 2

I know this sounds cheeky and you will not like this, but can you prove it?

Principia mathematica *54-43

And what you say doesn't sound cheeky at all, it just shows that you don't understand the scientific approach. Belief has no place there. The closest we ever get to that is an "educated guess" which then needs to be proven aka a hypothesis.

As I said, I know it sounds cheeky. My point is that unless you knew how to prove it from the top of your head, you would have to rely on the belief that someone was able to prove it for you, or even that such a proof would exist at all.
1 +1 = 2 is a pretty good example of how we accept belief to be ingrained in knowledge, since its something that basically everyone holds to be true, but so few are able to actually prove. Without allowing belief to be a basic component of knowledge, teaching math at elementary school would be almost impossible.

When you have verifiable proven facts then there is no "belief" involved anywhere. You fail to differentiate between "belief" and "trust that the teacher doesn`t lie and knows what he`s talking about" in your example....
It seems your whole argument in this thread is somehow melding the everyday "i believe xy" with belief as in religious faith, which is kinda nonsensical semantics fuckery.

 

[Haggard]

edit: 1 reply is enough I think.

 

[Thirty7ven]

There has been a great effort to remove god from our lives and force us down a path of an hedonistic life style, to tear down values in the name of consumerism and instant gratification.

 

[FunkMiller]

There has been a great effort to remove god from our lives and force us down a path of an hedonistic life style, to tear down values in the name of consumerism and instant gratification.

Nobody is making an effort to remove god from our lives. It's just that our knowledge and understanding of things progresses all the time as we develop and evolve as a society. This ever increasing knowledge base slowly but irrevocably stops us needing gods and religion to explain things. It's a perfectly natural process that's happened many times throughout human history, and will no doubt continue to do so.

The world isn't becoming more godless out of any sense of being anti-religion. It's just that it's not needed. We didn't stop using leeches to cure illnesses because we became 'anti-leech' we just discovered better ways to treat ourselves, and the leeches were no longer required.

 

[Thirty7ven]

Nobody is making an effort to remove god from our lives. It's just that our knowledge and understanding of things progresses all the time as we develop and evolve as a society.

Our knowledge and understanding of existence has barely evolved, in many ways you could say we have regressed. We have never been as disconnected from Nature as we are now, and for many their reason to exist is deeply tied to consuming fleeting meaning in media.

People think God is religion, but god is god, an understanding that we belong to something greater, all of us and that we must find equilibrium with nature for nature is also god.

Society doesn't need god as in religion, but the individual does need god in order to understand the whole. Otherwise you end up as someone who sees no meaning, and a life without meaning is worthless.

 

[kurisu_1974]

Our knowledge and understanding of existence has barely evolved, in many ways you could say we have regressed. We have never been as disconnected from Nature as we are now, and for many their reason to exist is deeply tied to consuming fleeting meaning in media.

People think God is religion, but god is god, an understanding that we belong to something greater, all of us and that we must find equilibrium with nature for nature is also god.

Society doesn't need god as in religion, but the individual does need god in order to understand the whole. Otherwise you end up as someone who sees no meaning, and a life without meaning is worthless.

Why add a god to this equation though? Is it so hard to be a good human without an external supernatural force guiding you (or being convinced it guides you).

You probably ask yourself why we atheists and agnosts are not out there murdering and raping because we have no morals. I mean I'm a pacifist, vegetarian, atheist. Almost like I can make these decisions for myself. Pretty weak that you need a made up tale to find meaning and ethics in life.