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[Redneckerz]

Hi, fellow GAFfers.

Recently, i saw a post by Ailynn about the transgender talk and how it affected her. But what stood out for me was the following:

NeoGAF should be about light-hearted good times with friends. I don't want it to become just another source of negativity for me. I'm far too old to be letting a message board mostly about videogames break my heart.

This felt very recognizable for me. Carepost/thread incoming, but i think its a good thing if i write something down here from more close to the heart. Recently ive been attributed as having a pissy mood or that i should stop moping it around with my doom and gloom. GAF is a community i have been in for some time now, so i feel its only just to write down the following aswell as tag the people mentioned in the examples above, EviLore and Papa . (And perhaps Yoshi too.).

GAF in its own fucked up twisted way enriched my experience. But i think that's important as a person too. Learn little bits from the places and people you meet, online and offline, and adapting them to your own or atleast acknowledge them for who and what they are.

I am in agreement with Tyler's words that i only should speak for myself and not others, so that is exactly what this post is about. What i think and what i observe. It might appear sudden or unknown if you read most of my posts (And why would you do that, my relevancy is not any more significant than any other user here.) but like i said, this is a carepost. So you have been warned.

I don't feel any of this warrants its own thread, but i do want to get this out there, if only just for this once. Either way, this is going to be very TLDR so here we go:

Parts of this sentiment have their grounds in some recent reading and a party i just came back from. All kinds of people from a scene you are part of it and meeting them in the flesh. Like an idealized GAF where everyone gets along and everything is resolved within a heartbeat. Ofcourse, reality is not this way, and its important to make that distinction. Because i am not hoping or imagining that GAF will turn that way one day. There is too many people and variety of opinions and memes for that. Nevertheless, that event sealed for me what i have been thinking for some time now, both in relation to GAF but also my private life.

The gloomy stuff, the far more serious nature as of recent: That is the real me you are hearing. I love cracking jokes and poking fun, but at heart, i have been an observer. And far less judgemental than my username gives out. I mean, one can tell a bit from those endless postings in the ERA thread where (negatively) the title of Official Chronicler is at my disposal, but at heart, i observe.

So, as i see it, i personally played a part into the sentiment GAF has today about ERA and other places, as recently as even last week. This is the thing that is directly attributable to myself and its why, or so i believe, its where commentary like that comes from. Its not something that i hold against anyone that has made the commentary, or thought it was because of that report button thread that i turned sour. After all, i did this myself. But i do regret what ive wrote throughout these months at times.

It was more that if felt as if the commentary was directed at my username, not me personally. So it felt distant to me to read these, but it did highlight how versatile the reception can be when your username persona is more about cracking jokes. It also did highlight other, less positive things for me, which ill get to later.

Just to put it out there - I geniunely did not know that they were revoked, and as such made that thread.

What i am seeing is how GAF is divided in its own little groups - Friends groups, if you will. And these friends groups create wonderful content - Fantastic OT's, even the occassional out-of-the-box thread - But they also get into play in a very negative manner. A lot of potential good commentary is cancelled out because of it. I do fully believe that introspection is at the heart of every community, speaking in general. Without any feedback, no story can continue. And that means accepting feedback that textualize things that can be bitter pills. I believe the last comments of the yesterday banned Bang_Learnedly echo a similar sentiment (Just with really poor execution). His final comments weren't the way you should start that conversation, but at the very least, an attempt was made to have that conversation in the first place. I am ofcourse talking about GAF's connections with ERA and vice versa. But i am also talking about the way a lot of members approach this site.

I am not ignoring what GAF is most of the times - Its a place for fun. It always has been that. GAF needs a Cunth . But, as one response said not too long ago, ''Sometimes you just want to have an actual, geniune conversation.''. I miss that. And that also includes having a actual, geniune conversation on introspection.

As for myself personally, i am going to focus on the Indie Watch thread and PM manners there. It does not mean i won't crack a joke anymore or whatever - Hell, ill even get back to the Discord just to satisfy Matt. Its just... i can tell life is moving on. And the all-fun, 24-7 nature, with the negativity it inhabits from it, is not where my heart lays - It never was, if i am brutally honest, to begin with. But it did provide a good basis from which to connect with other GAFfers, so for that i am always grateful.

So no, i am not moving away from GAF fully. And i will pick up the activity. Just not in the way people may think that of me originally. But if the GAF Cruise Ship is following one direction, ill be travelling behind in a speedboat. Just so you know, i can venture other directions too. Or atleast have that possibilty for it. I think this is important, to maintain having a fresh set of ideas.

PS: if anyone is into books, ill have a strong recommendation for Haruki Murakami - Colorless Tsukuru Tzazaki and his year of Pilgrimage. It is a great novelle that contains a lot of introspective elements - Things that might be useful to pick up from for yourself even. strange headache may like this, as GAF's Resident Socrates (Or Plato, whatever you want to have, haha)

So, TLDR:
I recognize Ailynn's sentiments. Ive contributed in part to this direction and its something that i regret doing. I do think GAF in general needs a place for introspection. And no, the pissy mood, is actually who i am as a person, more serious minded. But GAF also helped enrich my experiences, and its something that should be appreciated for having.

GAF, thank you for the wonderful memories. Here is to Stage 2 of those memories.​

• Special thanks to RokkanStoned for his recent critiques.
• Special thanks also I_D for our ongoing PM talk about politics, life, and the like. Even though our chat has been early on, i can see us having a wonderful talk altogether.

The both of you, along with Headache, are great thinkers able to articulate a point than i ever could with my limited vocabulary.

• Special thanks to all the users here, from the shitposters to the tinfoil hatters, from Freedom Gate Co. to Nobody_Important , from Michele to D dirthead , for playing their own part in this little microcosmos known as GAF. We may not have met always eye to eye, but in the end, you are just as valueable as the others here.

Lastly, a big hearty heart to Ailynn for being the person she is today. I know you came from far, but your little ride on the big river isn't over yet. I am terrible at giving compliments without sounding pompous or feeding off the impression that it is not geniune, but you are a great human being by heart, and i hope you never lose your sense of looking beyond the obvious and finding what ticks people.

 

[Nobody_Important]

Ailynn has proven herself time and time again to be a valuable contributor to every thread she has ever posted in. Her stepping away from a section like that is a loss to everyone in that section whether they want to admit it or not. And the fact that the people who caused her to leave will not see it that way is frankly infuriating. We lose someone valuable meanwhile we are still stuck with the people who are the cause of the loss in the first place.


Ailynn is worth 1000 of the kind of people who drove her away. I hope that she comes back eventually somewhere down the line. Her presence will be missed.

 

[manfestival]

GAF used to be a far worse place. I feel like most of that toxicity and awfulness went over to the other website. It has been much better these past couple of years. With that being said, it is still not a place for everyone but I respect everyone's wishes to do whatever they freely wish to do. Including you making this thread and people making a "ban me thread".
Just don't off yourself.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Ailynn is awesome

There was a time recently when like three “transgender athletes” threads popped up in the same week and I posted in all of them, basically saying the same thing each time.

I kind of felt bad afterward, as it’s easy for me to comment when I’m not the one being affected by such topics. I decided to stop commenting on those kind of threads and haven’t since.

This place is better with Ailynn actively in it. She’s personally reached out to me a couple times to offer support and I feel bad that I haven’t actively supported her in return.

 

[Tesseract]

not sure i see the issue, was it the goofy poll or something else i missed

some topics are gonna trigger people's tenders, as will some posts, and jokes sometimes fall flat (or outright offend)

your post reads like a bunch of melodramatic gobbledygook, unnecessarily tedious

please get to the point

 

[Nobody_Important]

Ailynn is awesome

There was a time recently when like three “transgender athletes” threads popped up in the same week and I posted in all of them, basically saying the same thing each time.

I kind of felt bad afterward, as it’s easy for me to comment when I’m not the one being affected by such topics. I decided to stop commenting on those kind of threads and haven’t since.

This place is better with Ailynn actively in it.

Agree 1000%

not sure i see the issue, was it the goofy poll or something else i missed

some topics are gonna trigger people's tenders, as will some views, and jokes sometimes fall flat or outright offend

Antoon has led a constant campaign against the trans community and Ailynn has engaged him in a mature and respectful manner in many of those threads to no avail. Look at his thread history. Its not that one thread. It the culmination everything that he and others have brought to the section when it comes to the trans community and that sections opinion of it. She has every right to step away after the amount of shit that section has posted.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

not sure i see the issue, was it the goofy poll or something else i missed

some topics are gonna trigger people's tenders, as will some views, and jokes sometimes fall flat or outright offend

Maybe it’s slowed down a bit but there was a time pretty recently where it felt like a transgender related thread was popping up every few hours and it was always the most fair or positive discussion. Not that people should be catered to or whatever but I honestly felt it was beginning to border on overkill.

I’m not speaking for her, but I can imagine when you’re someone in such a minority in community and the majority of the discussion related to yourself and your community is pretty one-sided in a not-very-flattering way, I mean, I’m sure it kinda sucks.

Edit

Also, just keep in mind that while people are entitled to believe that all of a certain people are mentally ill or whatever, when you state those beliefs and frame it universally like that, you’re straight up calling one of our members mentally ill, and that’s kinda fucked up IMO.

Maybe ask her about her experiences in life before passing judgment.

 

[Tesseract]

Agree 1000%



Antoon has led a constant campaign against the trans community and Ailynn has engaged him in a mature and respectful manner in many of those threads to no avail. Look at his thread history. Its not that one thread. It the culmination everything that he and others have brought to the section when it comes to the trans community and that sections opinion of it. She has every right to step away after the amount of shit that section has posted.

i'd need some examples, def not going outta my way to dig through antoon's history to drudge up content

is he being grossly transphobic or something

 

[Nobody_Important]

i'd need some examples, def not going outta my way to dig through antoon's history to drudge up content

is he being grossly transphobic or something

I don't want to sift through his garbage anymore than you do. Its right there if you decide you want the full story though.

 

[Tesseract]

I don't want to sift through his garbage anymore than you do. Its right there if you decide you want the full story though.

if you're gonna make the charge, you should provide the evidence

a campaign against the trans movement can be fairly argued, that's not enough information to go on

has antoon been grossly transphobic in his posts, personally attacked trans members, anything of that order

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

While I'm all about the whole "let's just get along" mentality, you've admitted there is negativity on GAF. Where does this negativity come from? People just not seeing eye-to-eye and not holding hands? Or is negativity a natural consequence of open discourse?

Your OT is filled to the brim with pleas amounting to "at the very least, an attempt was made to have that conversation in the first place." No, a community is not solely built upon the openness to have a conversation. A community must be able to regulate itself and engage in the ongoing feedback-loop. We must evaluate which behaviors are "good" and which ones are "bad" as the community grows, basing those judgments on common principles and desired outcomes.

GAF does not have a good way of regulating this right now. Mods are very hands off.

One might take a moment to investigate if there are foci in the community who appear to always be at the center of swirling storms of negativity and drama.

I have an alternative take, Redneckerz : there are members of GAF who crave attention. Some attention-seekers can ply their craft as a part of the overall goal to build a community. The shitposters, the OP-makers, the passionate arguers, and the kind-hearted souls who offer a word of encouragement are important pieces of our community. I don't really care if they are secretly "seeking attention" because their behavior makes for an interesting forum. As long as the attention-seekers can entertain others and be respectful, so be it.

Some attention-seekers are immature. They may be nice in most posts, but once they aren't getting the attention they crave, they start to whine and act out in strange ways.

There are other attention-seekers who ply their craft specifically by sowing division, "just starting conversations", and intentionally dodging and deflecting any questions aimed at them. Conversations go in circles. Threads get derailed. Accusations of "isms" get thrown around and no one learns anything from the exchange. One might take a moment to investigate if there are certain people who engage in this particular behavior frequently.

Any community will suffer from all three types of attention seekers. The important part is to recognize when the last group is putting down its roots in the middle of your community and put a stop to it.

If your goal is to "just have an actual, genuine conversation", then you cannot simultaneously tolerate the trolls, Bang_Learnedly being on one side of the spectrum and kill me being on the other. I don't think GAFers are unsure which troll has been appearing here more frequently, though. The tolerant, positive community you're asking for is not compatible with a forum like GAF that allows arguments to be aired out publicly. Negativity will be the default. Positivity has to be earned and fought for, which requires dedication far beyond just making a thread to say "hey, don't you think we should get along?"

And perhaps some of the "negativity" you're noticing is from GAFers who are also seeing what I have described above and are getting upset about it.

 

[Tesseract]

gaf needn't be a lighthearted sing song get together where everyone hugs each other and sends endless hearts every which way
it's nice when it happens but don't force it

steel man your opponents arguments yes, limit personal attacks wherever possible, don't loosen restrictions on arguments because someone's feelings might get hurt

the rules of the game have been laid out by lore and his staff, i'm sure the mods are watching and will step in if things turn hateful

 

[Rentahamster]

Friends groups? I don't have any friends.

 

[Tesseract]

Friends groups? I don't have any friends.

 

[Sakura]

It's unfortunate. I don't share the same views on transgenders, but I enjoyed Ailynn's posts and the contribution they made. It is important to have two sides to a political discussion.
However, having two sides means one of the sides is going to be against you. I don't believe politics "should be about light-hearted good times with friends". That is what gaming or OT should be for. Politics doesn't need to be positive and it doesn't need to be tolerant of feelings. The discussions need to be civil, and rational. Ideas should be attacked, and not people.
If someone isn't willing to engage in a proper discussion on an issue that is important to you, then don't bother with them. It isn't worth your time.
If the attacks against your ideas are causing you personal discomfort, then yes, maybe distancing yourself from the forum is the way to go, and I believe Ailynn made the right choice in that regard.

 

[Redneckerz]

While I'm all about the whole "let's just get along" mentality, you've admitted there is negativity on GAF. Where does this negativity come from? People just not seeing eye-to-eye and not holding hands? Or is negativity a natural consequence of open discourse?

Your OT is filled to the brim with pleas amounting to "at the very least, an attempt was made to have that conversation in the first place." No, a community is not solely built upon the openness to have a conversation. A community must be able to regulate itself and engage in the ongoing feedback-loop. We must evaluate which behaviors are "good" and which ones are "bad" as the community grows, basing those judgments on common principles and desired outcomes.

GAF does not have a good way of regulating this right now. Mods are very hands off.

One might take a moment to investigate if there are foci in the community who appear to always be at the center of swirling storms of negativity and drama.

I have an alternative take, Redneckerz : there are members of GAF who crave attention. Some attention-seekers can ply their craft as a part of the overall goal to build a community. The shitposters, the OP-makers, the passionate arguers, and the kind-hearted souls who offer a word of encouragement are important pieces of our community. I don't really care if they are secretly "seeking attention" because their behavior makes for an interesting forum. As long as the attention-seekers can entertain others and be respectful, so be it.

Some attention-seekers are immature. They may be nice in most posts, but once they aren't getting the attention they crave, they start to whine and act out in strange ways.

There are other attention-seekers who ply their craft specifically by sowing division, "just starting conversations", and intentionally dodging and deflecting any questions aimed at them. Conversations go in circles. Threads get derailed. Accusations of "isms" get thrown around and no one learns anything from the exchange. One might take a moment to investigate if there are certain people who engage in this particular behavior frequently.

Any community will suffer from all three types of attention seekers. The important part is to recognize when the last group is putting down its roots in the middle of your community and put a stop to it.

If your goal is to "just have an actual, genuine conversation", then you cannot simultaneously tolerate the trolls, Bang_Learnedly being on one side of the spectrum and kill me being on the other. I don't think GAFers are unsure which troll has been appearing here more frequently, though. The tolerant, positive community you're asking for is not compatible with a forum like GAF that allows arguments to be aired out publicly. Negativity will be the default. Positivity has to be earned and fought for, which requires dedication far beyond just making a thread to say "hey, don't you think we should get along?"

And perhaps some of the "negativity" you're noticing is from GAFers who are also seeing what I have described above and are getting upset about it.

I enjoy this take and serves as a nice addendum to my post. I fully agree that recognition is indeed the important to address and that GAF is indeed similar to other communities. Maybe i just grow old despite being still relatively young at 28. Old soul in a young body, kind of like.

It is definitely a balancing act, no doubt.

I also agree with the negativity-positivity comparison you have been making, but i refrained from throwing it in my own OP because honestly i cannot make a request like that for an entire forum. I rather focus in that case on my own sense of mind and try to always insert something positive into the mix. You can never get full circle ofcourse, and perhaps it is indeed not something GAF is or GAF would move to. Ofcourse, i don't appreciate the trolls you have mentioned, since their system of delivery is inherently flawed, of the fire and forget type. But, some of the posts contain points that i feel should not be ignored.

It is a given that negativity is an easier stride to make than being geniunely positive and complimentary but it is difficult to see where the effort goes to. I am glad however that my post went well recieved so far and takes like yours are made, so thank you (and the others) for making it.

While I'm all about the whole "let's just get along" mentality, you've admitted there is negativity on GAF. Where does this negativity come from? People just not seeing eye-to-eye and not holding hands? Or is negativity a natural consequence of open discourse?

Your OT is filled to the brim with pleas amounting to "at the very least, an attempt was made to have that conversation in the first place." No, a community is not solely built upon the openness to have a conversation. A community must be able to regulate itself and engage in the ongoing feedback-loop. We must evaluate which behaviors are "good" and which ones are "bad" as the community grows, basing those judgments on common principles and desired outcomes.

GAF does not have a good way of regulating this right now. Mods are very hands off.

I can't say i am actually certain why this negativity is there in the first place or why it tends to hover there. But like i said, it is an easier emotion to portray since a geniune act of positivity is much rarer and thus people are less used to react properly to that. Some kind of conditioning, perhaps?

The example you are putting in was a rather specifc example i made, and i agree, communities should also be self-regulating. But i do think that, and this is why i used that example, GAF indeed has not a great way of regulating this. I am glad you put that under words better than i did in my OP. I like to use the word introspection when talking about these matters, rather than regulation. Regulation, to me, sounds like its a forced way of feedback, not a natural one, which i consider introspection to be. Like a feedback upon yourself and on your own initative.

So i am not sure which kind of feedback you feel is not there: The forced way, or the natural one?

That aside, thank you for this point of view

 

[cr0w]

There's a lot of shit I see being posted that I can't believe is allowed, but I realize that there are going to be growing pains for a while until a baseline for conduct is established given just how far gone this place was before the split. I do think there's a real danger of becoming a mirror image of ResetERA and heading too far down the opposite path, and hope that people recognize that if it does in fact become a problem. I don't want GAF to become a place where someone like Elliot Rodger or Anders Breivik would have been comfortable posting.

As far as Ailynn goes, I don't know what happened because I've made a conscious effort to stay out of ERA-related threads and really anything but lighthearted tomfoolery lately, but I do know that in the topics I've seen her active in, she's a valuable member of this community. Regarding transgender issues, frankly, I'm nearing 40 years old and I'm at the point I used to make fun of my dad for, where I'm genuinely confused by the majority of things going on in the world. That doesn't mean, however, that my lack of ability to understand certain things means that they're automatically "wrong" in my eyes. It just means that I can't really relate to them because they're not something I encounter in my every day life. I've known a few trans people in my life dating back to the late '90s, and honestly despite there being more awareness these days due to increased visibility, it seems like it's even harder now, with society being more aware of them, than it was for my friends almost two decades ago. They just were who they were, and they were accepted for it with very few exceptions. It seems exponentially harder these days because with increased awareness comes increased scrutiny, and there also seems to be an influx of people who are just flat out miserable in their own lives for various reasons that think creating a new identity for themselves will fix their problems, and it just doesn't work like that. However, it's not my place to determine who's genuine in their pursuit of happiness and who's just trying to find a quick fix.

In general I find Bill & Ted's philosophy to be the most valid...just be excellent to each other. Don't let your first reaction to being insulted or ridiculed be responding in kind, put some thought into your response or even whether a response is warranted. It's entirely possible to disagree with civility or simply ignore someone who's a complete fucking idiot, though it's generally less "fun".

 

[synchronicity]

I look at gaf like I look at the outside world at large. Should we all be kind and understanding towards one another? Obviously.

Will that always happen. Of course not.

Personally, I just let those with negative energy have their energy. I'll either be kind to them or excuse myself from contact - just like real life.

 

[TrainedRage]

I'm TrainedRage and I approve this message.

 

[iconmaster]

I don't really understand the OP, but I find NeoGAF is a less negative place than the internet in general.

Politics is always going to be the hottest kitchen on here. There's probably no changing that.

Outside of Politics, I would agree that NeoGAF is a bit "aggressive." It's a predominantly male forum AFAICT, and guys generally enjoy the rough-and-tumble of debate.

Personally I wouldn't mind if that were toned back a bit outside of Politics (a few more women wouldn't hurt us, and I suspect we're a bit intimidating to the softer sex), but that's probably a tall order.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

While I'm all about the whole "let's just get along" mentality, you've admitted there is negativity on GAF. Where does this negativity come from? People just not seeing eye-to-eye and not holding hands? Or is negativity a natural consequence of open discourse?

Your OT is filled to the brim with pleas amounting to "at the very least, an attempt was made to have that conversation in the first place." No, a community is not solely built upon the openness to have a conversation. A community must be able to regulate itself and engage in the ongoing feedback-loop. We must evaluate which behaviors are "good" and which ones are "bad" as the community grows, basing those judgments on common principles and desired outcomes.

GAF does not have a good way of regulating this right now. Mods are very hands off.

One might take a moment to investigate if there are foci in the community who appear to always be at the center of swirling storms of negativity and drama.

I have an alternative take, Redneckerz : there are members of GAF who crave attention. Some attention-seekers can ply their craft as a part of the overall goal to build a community. The shitposters, the OP-makers, the passionate arguers, and the kind-hearted souls who offer a word of encouragement are important pieces of our community. I don't really care if they are secretly "seeking attention" because their behavior makes for an interesting forum. As long as the attention-seekers can entertain others and be respectful, so be it.

Some attention-seekers are immature. They may be nice in most posts, but once they aren't getting the attention they crave, they start to whine and act out in strange ways.

There are other attention-seekers who ply their craft specifically by sowing division, "just starting conversations", and intentionally dodging and deflecting any questions aimed at them. Conversations go in circles. Threads get derailed. Accusations of "isms" get thrown around and no one learns anything from the exchange. One might take a moment to investigate if there are certain people who engage in this particular behavior frequently.

Any community will suffer from all three types of attention seekers. The important part is to recognize when the last group is putting down its roots in the middle of your community and put a stop to it.

If your goal is to "just have an actual, genuine conversation", then you cannot simultaneously tolerate the trolls, Bang_Learnedly being on one side of the spectrum and kill me being on the other. I don't think GAFers are unsure which troll has been appearing here more frequently, though. The tolerant, positive community you're asking for is not compatible with a forum like GAF that allows arguments to be aired out publicly. Negativity will be the default. Positivity has to be earned and fought for, which requires dedication far beyond just making a thread to say "hey, don't you think we should get along?"

And perhaps some of the "negativity" you're noticing is from GAFers who are also seeing what I have described above and are getting upset about it.

I guess it comes down to what is considered “antagonism” and when is “antagonism” appropriate and fruitful, or not.

I’m sure there are posts that I consider to be viciously antagonistic that others consider to be valid/fruitful discussion. I don’t know if there’s a happy medium/somewhere in the middle that everyone could universally agree to meet in.

 

[Redneckerz]

I don't really understand the OP,

Outside of Politics, I would agree that NeoGAF is a bit "aggressive." It's a predominantly male forum AFAICT, and guys generally enjoy the rough-and-tumble of debate.

Personally I wouldn't mind if that were toned back a bit outside of Politics (a few more women wouldn't hurt us, and I suspect we're a bit intimidating to the softer sex), but that's probably a tall order.

Basically haha. I like the summary. Hitting most of the marks really atleast when it concerns GAF.

 

[interactivemonodrama]

I am so bitter and salty, that the people around me within 5 meter range can feel the taste on their tongue.

 

[The Scrivener]

What brings us together is our core appreciation for Mario, Sonic, Master Chief, or Lara Croft.

 

[triplestation]

big tits

 

[infinitys_7th]

I don't understand the vitriol against transpeople that some on the board have. There are plenty of transpeople (like Ailynn) who just want to live their lives and are not imposing on anyone. She certainly never did, and is one of the most positive people on the forum.

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

I enjoy this take and serves as a nice addendum to my post. I fully agree that recognition is indeed the important to address and that GAF is indeed similar to other communities. Maybe i just grow old despite being still relatively young at 28. Old soul in a young body, kind of like.

It is definitely a balancing act, no doubt.

I also agree with the negativity-positivity comparison you have been making, but i refrained from throwing it in my own OP because honestly i cannot make a request like that for an entire forum. I rather focus in that case on my own sense of mind and try to always insert something positive into the mix. You can never get full circle ofcourse, and perhaps it is indeed not something GAF is or GAF would move to. Ofcourse, i don't appreciate the trolls you have mentioned, since their system of delivery is inherently flawed, of the fire and forget type. But, some of the posts contain points that i feel should not be ignored.

Inserting something positive is noble. Playing "both sides" and artificially downplaying the behavior of one party in an effort to resolve the differences between the two parties is not how things get solved. One party will feel (rightfully) slighted by the mediation, while the other party will feel emboldened in their bad behavior.

The result will not be what you are hoping for: those who are most skilled at dodging and masking their intentions will thrive, while those who try to honestly engage in a conversation will end up frustrated and exasperated that their goodwill efforts were once again trashed by the same trollish behavior.

I don't believe in an arbitrary need for "what lesson could we learn from this?" This non-committal attitude can thrive in an HR department or as ineffectual middle-management, but most people don't like being told they need to learn a lesson from trolls that insult them. Surely you have experienced this yourself?

It is a given that negativity is an easier stride to make than being geniunely positive and complimentary but it is difficult to see where the effort goes to. I am glad however that my post went well recieved so far and takes like yours are made, so thank you (and the others) for making it.

I can't say i am actually certain why this negativity is there in the first place or why it tends to hover there. But like i said, it is an easier emotion to portray since a geniune act of positivity is much rarer and thus people are less used to react properly to that. Some kind of conditioning, perhaps?

Perhaps there are elements of GAF's environment that reward -- or at least tolerate -- negative takes. And perhaps there are elements of GAF's environment that dissuade people from posting positive things. The solution isn't to make a post telling others to "be less negative".

Be specific. Should threads like the one that drove off Ailynn be allowed on GAF? Why or why not, and what criteria can we use to prevent it from happening in the first place?

The example you are putting in was a rather specifc example i made, and i agree, communities should also be self-regulating. But i do think that, and this is why i used that example, GAF indeed has not a great way of regulating this. I am glad you put that under words better than i did in my OP. I like to use the word introspection when talking about these matters, rather than regulation. Regulation, to me, sounds like its a forced way of feedback, not a natural one, which i consider introspection to be. Like a feedback upon yourself and on your own initative.

So i am not sure which kind of feedback you feel is not there: The forced way, or the natural one?

That aside, thank you for this point of view

Both kinds of feedback -- forced and natural -- exist on GAF. Both kinds of feedback exist in any community.

Introspection is the "right" answer, but a community cannot force someone's brain to reflect. If the negativity on GAF is "cancer" and we're looking for a cure, then your suggestion for "introspection" is akin to "just send all your positive vibes to the cancer cells".

Since we cannot force introspection, a community has access to these tools (to name a few):

- mockery of the idea/ mockery of the person
- factual correction
- gentle moralizing
- angry/insulting responses
- sarcasm/wit
- humor/memes

As the community implements these tools, you will see "negativity" occur. If the community is artificially prevented from ousting bad ideas with these tools, the trolling will increase, the desire to contribute will decrease, and the quality of conversation decreases with it.

This is why you will see people push back at excuses of "just starting a conversation" and "maybe there's a lesson we need to learn from the troll we just banned". The first few times, it's reasonable. Tolerating overt trolls as a general day-to-day habit is not reasonable and is what drove Aiylinn away and (appears to have) inspired your thread here.

I would suggest, then, that the solution you are offering is actually leading to the very problem you are concerned about.

I guess it comes down to what is considered “antagonism” and when is “antagonism” appropriate and fruitful, or not.

I’m sure there are posts that I consider to be viciously antagonistic that others consider to be valid/fruitful discussion. I don’t know if there’s a happy medium/somewhere in the middle that everyone could universally agree to meet in.

I wouldn't suggest that anyone makes this call based on one post alone. Rather, we can see if there are patterns of antagonism, patterns of derailing threads, and so forth. The mods already do this, so I guess we're headed in the right direction.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Ailynn is worth 1000 of the kind of people who drove her away.

Meh. I don't have anything against her personally, but she's so god damned sensitive that I always feel like I have to tiptoe around her. Every transgender thread goes a page or two until she shows up, rolls her eyes and complains, and then everybody jumps to her defense. Seems like her very existence is an obstacle to discussion, sometimes intentionally so.

I'm not trying to be mean. I've said to her multiple times that she needs to take things less personally and toughen up. I've seen the worst that the internet has to bear (bare?), and she wouldn't last 30 seconds against it. And if you can't handle some dicks on the internet, real life is gonna fuck you sideways with both fists. For her own good, she needs to grow a pair. Figuratively speaking, of course.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Meh. I don't have anything against her personally, but she's so god damned sensitive that I always feel like I have to tiptoe around her. Every transgender thread goes a page or two until she shows up, rolls her eyes and complains, and then everybody jumps to her defense. Seems like her very existence is an obstacle to discussion, sometimes intentionally so.

I'm not trying to be mean. I've said to her multiple times that she needs to take things less personally and toughen up. I've seen the worst that the internet has to bear (bare?), and she wouldn't last 30 seconds against it. And if you can't handle some dicks on the internet, real life is gonna fuck you sideways with both fists. For her own good, she needs to grow a pair. Figuratively speaking, of course.

I see what you’re saying but I can’t help but counter with my observation that any posts that levy blanket statements toward white people, especially straight white males, get dealt with immediately, but “all trans people are sick” comments, and similar, are okay and just “dicks being dicks?”

That’s kinda what I was asking before, to Dun. What level of antagonism is okay? Where is the line? I’m asking honestly. I’m more than happy to meet in the middle.

 

[Redneckerz]

Inserting something positive is noble. Playing "both sides" and artificially downplaying the behavior of one party in an effort to resolve the differences between the two parties is not how things get solved. One party will feel (rightfully) slighted by the mediation, while the other party will feel emboldened in their bad behavior.

The result will not be what you are hoping for: those who are most skilled at dodging and masking their intentions will thrive, while those who try to honestly engage in a conversation will end up frustrated and exasperated that their goodwill efforts were once again trashed by the same trollish behavior.

That is not what i am after. If i would have condense most of it, it would simply boil down to ''A little less deflection, and a little more reflection''.

I don't believe in an arbitrary need for "what lesson could we learn from this?" This non-committal attitude can thrive in an HR department or as ineffectual middle-management, but most people don't like being told they need to learn a lesson from trolls that insult them. Surely you have experienced this yourself?

Well, that's' the point - I am not telling GAF that they should learn a lesson.

I think where this goes wrong is that you look at all the troll messages in particular when in this case, i looked at a single post. This is where i said that it was presented in a terrible way, but the basic outlining of it is not a bad take to me, on its own.

Perhaps there are elements of GAF's environment that reward -- or at least tolerate -- negative takes. And perhaps there are elements of GAF's environment that dissuade people from posting positive things. The solution isn't to make a post telling others to "be less negative".

Be specific. Should threads like the one that drove off Ailynn be allowed on GAF? Why or why not, and what criteria can we use to prevent it from happening in the first place?

You get the gist of it, but in no way am i attempting to instruct people and i apologize that the OP still managed to sound that way.

Well this thread was not about Ailynn in particular, but ill address it anyways. I believe Antoon's points differ in intent. I do not think it is unreasonable to discuss the topic of transgenderism, but, given that Antoon has made multiple threads ''discussing'' this, it reads more like downplaying someone who simply is trans, repackaged as a discussion. Whilst i was not sure of this with an earlier thread, i do feel that this is the case. Ofcourse, my personal experience does not help much either since i remember Antoon mostly from the Doctor thread.

And i think such behavior is counter-productive, for one example.

Both kinds of feedback -- forced and natural -- exist on GAF. Both kinds of feedback exist in any community.

Introspection is the "right" answer, but a community cannot force someone's brain to reflect. If the negativity on GAF is "cancer" and we're looking for a cure, then your suggestion for "introspection" is akin to "just send all your positive vibes to the cancer cells".

It sure would be nice if it could be that way Yes, both kinds of feedback exist here (And thank you for recognizing it). Its more with how it is handled more than anything else, i woulld say.

This is why you will see people push back at excuses of "just starting a conversation" and "maybe there's a lesson we need to learn from the troll we just banned". The first few times, it's reasonable. Tolerating overt trolls as a general day-to-day habit is not reasonable and is what drove Aiylinn away and (appears to have) inspired your thread here.

I cleared this up at the above (Hopefully). I should have tagged you aswell in the OP you know

 

[infinitys_7th]

Meh. I don't have anything against her personally, but she's so god damned sensitive that I always feel like I have to tiptoe around her. Every transgender thread goes a page or two until she shows up, rolls her eyes and complains, and then everybody jumps to her defense. Seems like her very existence is an obstacle to discussion, sometimes intentionally so.

I'm not trying to be mean. I've said to her multiple times that she needs to take things less personally and toughen up. I've seen the worst that the internet has to bear (bare?), and she wouldn't last 30 seconds against it. And if you can't handle some dicks on the internet, real life is gonna fuck you sideways with both fists. For her own good, she needs to grow a pair. Figuratively speaking, of course.

IIRC she said that she lives in East Tennessee, so I know she goes through a shit ton in real life. I'd say she just does not want to hear it online.

Having someone question the idea of you even existing as a person has to be incredibly frustrating, because we have plenty of physical evidence that transgenderism exists as a phenomenon. Again, she was never the Tumblr-type screaming about "cis-scum" and claiming to be a woman on every day that does not start with "T". She just felt she was a woman and lived that way. That is how most transpeople live, and 30 years ago I would be saying, in a similar discussion, that is how most gay people live.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

I see what you’re saying but I can’t help but counter with my observation that any posts that levy blanket statements toward white people, especially straight white males, get dealt with immediately, but “all trans people are sick” comments, and similar, are okay and just “dicks being dicks?”

It doesn't matter what other people say, you can't take it personally and be so sensitive about it. The world does not exist at your pleasure. It exists to spite you. There is nothing you think or believe that won't be challenged - repeatedly and rudely - by people online, and you can either accept that challenge and take it on, or you can succumb to it.

What level of antagonism is okay? Where is the line?

Ailynn can barely handle any. Wherever a reasonable person would find the line, it would still be two steps too far for her. And wherever the line is, it will be crossed with extreme prejudice at any time. I've had the entire internet calling for my blood before, and if you think a reasonably polite discussion about transgenderism is bad, trying getting phone calls at home and a thousand pieces of hate mail a day, some with actual death threats and illustrations of people performing sex acts to your skull. And you can never predict when something like that will happen to you or for what reason. One day, you just wake up and the witch hunt is on your doorstep.

You can't wait for someone else to come and save you. You have to step it up and be ready or you will go into a depression you may not ever come out of. Having thick skin won't protect you completely, but it will absolutely save you in your times of greatest need.

 

[InterMusketeer]

NeoGAF is like a bowl of candy. You have to pick and choose the flavours you like, and ignore the ones you don't. I really don't understand what the issue is, to be honest. People have been bringing their own candies, pouring them in the bowl, and everyone's free to take whatever they want. If the bowl starts getting filled with stuff you don't like... Maybe you gotta dig a bit deeper. Maybe you have to bring some of your own candy. No-one's forcing you to keep hanging around nor to eat candy you don't like anyway. I think there's a nice variety now, though some types may be somewhat overrepresented in the bowl. I don't put in much myself neither, and I'd like to think I don't take much either. For me, that's the best way to enjoy GAF. If this forum becomes a source of negativity for you, at this point I think that's entirely on yourself and how you choose to engage and with whom.

 

[EverydayBeast]

The recent updates encourage engagement, and it will take NEOGAF long time to change it's narrative/look (Debatable) but they're going in the right direction as fast as they can. I think if you prioritize community first you will have less suicide threads like this.

 

[Rentahamster]

Ailynn can barely handle any. Wherever a reasonable person would find the line, it would still be two steps too far for her.

Correct me if you think I'm out of line here, but I do recall you getting overly sensitive in multiple threads about vaccination that you had to resort to the laughable "We're turning into Resetera!" argument. Do you think anyone had to "tiptoe" around your feelings after that?

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Having someone question the idea of you even existing as a person has to be incredibly frustrating...

Certainly. Growing up, I had crippling social anxiety - literally to the point where I wouldn't go outside except to go to school. I would have panic attacks just from the idea of buying a bottle of Gatorade from a cashier. And it pissed me off something fierce to see people take for granted things that I was physically unable to do. Do you know how much I wished I could do things like get gas for my car or order food at Taco Bell without help? And this lasted into my late twenties from when I was about 10 years old.

And I've seen people laugh off social anxiety and treat it as a joke. I've seen people characterize it as a mental illness - I mean, it is, but it certainly didn't feel like something so simple to me. It's one thing to realize, on a conscious level, that there is something warped about your reality, but it really doesn't make it any easier to deal with. My darkest time was when I was about 15, which means that it took me over a decade to crawl out of that hole, and it was neither trivial nor fun, and it is so frustrating seeing people think social anxiety is not wanting to chat during parties or that it is something you can just turn off.

But the thing I took away from that experience is that nobody will ever understand you in the way you want to be understood, and that's not their fault. You can't change the world, only yourself, and in my case, the thing that was making me unhappy was me. So that's what I changed.

She just felt she was a woman and lived that way.

Absolutely her prerogative and more power to her, but let's not pretend that this doesn't come with social consequences. Whether it is a choice or a necessity, her entire life is going to be affected by this condition to the point where no social relationship, job, or family situation won't have this sword of Damocles hanging overhead at all times. And while I don't envy such a challenge, I do actually understand it, and it is with absolute compassion and consideration for her future that I say, this challenge won't ever go away and if you run away from it now, you won't have developed the experience and skills when you need them later.

 

[Redneckerz]

NeoGAF is like a bowl of candy. You have to pick and choose the flavours you like, and ignore the ones you don't. I really don't understand what the issue is, to be honest. People have been bringing their own candies, pouring them in the bowl, and everyone's free to take whatever they want. If the bowl starts getting filled with stuff you don't like... Maybe you gotta dig a bit deeper. Maybe you have to bring some of your own candy. No-one's forcing you to keep hanging around nor to eat candy you don't like anyway. I think there's a nice variety now, though some types may be somewhat overrepresented in the bowl. I don't put in much myself neither, and I'd like to think I don't take much either. For me, that's the best way to enjoy GAF. If this forum becomes a source of negativity for you, at this point I think that's entirely on yourself and how you choose to engage and with whom.

Nice take. Its not exactly what i am going for with the thread, but i like the analogy on display here. I see you got some other likes from it aswell so i reckon they agree with this.

Do note that i do not think GAF is not a full on source of negativity, as that implies that there is nothing good about GAF and judging by who i have tagged and the takes here, that's not true, obviously. Its just that i get the sentiment brought forward with the example i started the OP with, and i can relate to, and even prefaced it that given what users and staffers a like may know of me, this kind of post is like suddenly bringing a sweet kind of liquorice to the table instead of always bringing sour.

As for the bolded, do you think this can be applied globally, or simply on a case by case basis? And if its about Ailynn (Again, this topic is not about her in particular!) do you think this line speaks well enough of her own behavior?

One more note:

Prior behavior of mines likely has the nasty by-effect that this thread is seen with different goggles on and it may explain some of the likes you are given. Its only up to me to actually convert what i have said today as a means of release into actual behavior. But that's a part i didn't feel like i should have addressed, as that's the logical conclusion you will reach with a thread like this. Nevertheless, i figured i should add that here.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

Correct me if you think I'm out of line here, but I do recall you getting overly sensitive in multiple threads about vaccination that you had to resort to the laughable "We're turning into Resetera!" argument. Do you think anyone had to "tiptoe" around your feelings after that?

Hmm. I think you are remembering things differently than they were intended. For one, I welcome disagreement in all things. I disagree just for the fun of it, and I invite others to do the same. I think disagreement is the greatest intellectual gift you can give another. My comments about ResetEra were almost certainly about people putting feels before reals and dictating their beliefs from an emotional (and thus inherently untrustworthy) place rather than using reason and logic. And probably the attempts to label and shame others. That was a few debates ago, so I don't recall exactly, but that's what I associate ResetEra with in my mind, not being mean.

And for another, even if I did believe that people should tiptoe around my feelings, it's pretty obvious that none of them ever did. Hence my position that expecting such a thing is foolish.

 

[Rentahamster]

Hence my position that expecting such a thing is foolish.

Who is expecting such a thing?

 

[bigedole]

I've had the entire internet calling for my blood before, and if you think a reasonably polite discussion about transgenderism is bad, trying getting phone calls at home and a thousand pieces of hate mail a day, some with actual death threats and illustrations of people performing sex acts to your skull. And you can never predict when something like that will happen to you or for what reason. One day, you just wake up and the witch hunt is on your doorstep.

I feel like we need to know more about this. What have you been through my dude?

 

[Yoshi]

I have yet to read the rest of the topic, but I have read the original post to which I am responding with this posting:
I feel it was not good form of me to give a mocking comment in the report-button thread, after having been told by you in a previous encounter that you misunderstood a milder joking comment of mine as an attack. I should have been more careful in observing your wish for banter. It is unfortunate that I have given you reason to feel incomfortable because it is pretty important to me to treat people in a way they feel respected. The other issue with my posting was, that it was more or less a drive-by. I saw the thread, your op, thought "let's tease him a bit about his nicknames where they fit in an ironic way" and did not make the effort to read through the thread to gather the tone and your expressed feelings up to that point. Please be aware that I did not intend to ridicule you.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Its just that i get the sentiment brought forward with the example i started the OP with, and i can relate to, and even prefaced it that given what users and staffers a like may know of me, this kind of post is like suddenly bringing a sweet kind of liquorice to the table instead of always bringing sour.

That's fair enough. I think it's great to aspire to be a better person, or at least the person you want to be. Even if it is on a gaming forum. Heck, that may even be a perfect place for it, as it is a platform that allows you to experiment and mess up. I don't know that you've been a sour grape to be honest. I'll take your word for it.

As for the bolded, do you think this can be applied globally, or simply on a case by case basis? And if its about Ailynn (Again, this topic is not about her in particular!) do you think this line speaks well enough of her own behavior?

I was gonna talk about that situation in particular in my previous post, but decided against it because I wanted it to be more globally applicable. Posting anything remotely negative about her doesn't feel good either.

Like anyone here, Ailynn is responsible for the things she encountered in this forum. She ate a particular piece of candy that didn't suit her taste multiple times and yet expected a different outcome. She should just eat the candies she likes and leave the rest. Ultimately that's the goal for anyone here. Some look for honest discussion, some to make friends, others just want to shit post. I leave it up to the mods to decide what crosses the line. I trust they'll remove rabbit droppings and boogers from the bowl. Apart from those extreme exceptions, members are always in control of their own experience on this forum.

 

[Winter John]

I've found this forum has become a much better place since I started putting the assholes on ignore. I haven't done it often because we all have our off days. Sometimes we'll post stuff we didn't word properly or read something that'll rub us the wrong way and we'll get a little steamed up, that's ok, that's natural. It's those people who constantly engage in or encourage pile ons, insult others, or cause arguments and try to stir up drama, I don't think twice about blanking em. They got nothing worthwhile to offer. As for Ailynn she seems like a real nice lady and it would be a great shame if those assholes were allowed to drive her off this board.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

I feel like we need to know more about this. What have you been through my dude?

While I'm not exactly hiding my identity here, I'm not advertising it either. So you'll have to excuse me for being a little vague. But basically, I upset some people with a lot of influence and not a lot of responsibility in wielding that influence. They misinterpreted something I said as a threat. I was maybe posturing a little, and that's on me, but it was never intended to be a threat, much less one in the manner which they took it. And they decided to bring this to the attention of their audience in the least charitable way possible. Their audience, filled with righteous indignation, decided that mob justice was the best way to protect their treasure and destroy me before I had a chance to act upon this imaginary threat. Needless to say, things got real brutal, real fast, and it lasted a long time too. Over a year.

Things escalated from a 0 to a billion between me going out to lunch and me returning. These things are almost instantaneous. You can't predict them and they happen so fast that there's no way to calm them down or slow the madness. Even knowing how it went down, I would be powerless to stop it from happening again. People leap into action on headlines alone, without doing any research or even the littlest bit of trying to understand the situation, and they can be right bastards when they do it too. To this day, I am truly amazed at how absolutely horrible people can be to a complete stranger based on little more than a vague suggestion. They take a shit in your mouth and then go on the rest of their day, thinking themselves kings, while you have to deal with a few hundred people shitting in your mouth every day for months.

But lessons were learned and I now know the secret to protecting yourself from this kind of thing. You can't stop it, but I know how to end it almost immediately, and what steps to take to make sure that its impact is minimally invasive.

 

[DKehoe]

While I'm not exactly hiding my identity here, I'm not advertising it either. So you'll have to excuse me for being a little vague. But basically, I upset some people with a lot of influence and not a lot of responsibility in wielding that influence. They misinterpreted something I said as a threat. I was maybe posturing a little, and that's on me, but it was never intended to be a threat, much less one in the manner which they took it. And they decided to bring this to the attention of their audience in the least charitable way possible. Their audience, filled with righteous indignation, decided that mob justice was the best way to protect their treasure and destroy me before I had a chance to act upon this imaginary threat. Needless to say, things got real brutal, real fast, and it lasted a long time too. Over a year.

Things escalated from a 0 to a billion between me going out to lunch and me returning. These things are almost instantaneous. You can't predict them and they happen so fast that there's no way to calm them down or slow the madness. Even knowing how it went down, I would be powerless to stop it from happening again. People leap into action on headlines alone, without doing any research or even the littlest bit of trying to understand the situation, and they can be right bastards when they do it too. To this day, I am truly amazed at how absolutely horrible people can be to a complete stranger based on little more than a vague suggestion. They take a shit in your mouth and then go on the rest of their day, thinking themselves kings, while you have to deal with a few hundred people shitting in your mouth every day for months.

But lessons were learned and I now know the secret to protecting yourself from this kind of thing. You can't stop it, but I know how to end it almost immediately, and what steps to take to make sure that its impact is minimally invasive.

Shit, sorry to hear you went through something like that. People need to be more considerate about the real world effects their actions have on the people they direct this stuff at.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

The candy analogy works, and I get it. As a sensitive person myself I would also say that GAF probably is an interesting place for super sensitive people as there is no tiptoeing around and the “limits” seem more flexible than other moderated/staffed sites. This is a good thing, in the big picture, don’t get me wrong, however I don’t think if would be a bad thing if “being a dick” maybe got looked down upon a little more. I’m not saying hold hands and dance together. But, for example, when that one account suicided by threatening to beat up Nobody_Important or whatever the troll said, it would have been nice (in my eyes) had more people openly condemned that kind of rhetoric. The staff handled it, promptly, again don’t get me wrong. The staff is excellent, truly. I mean that.

I still can’t help but go back to the theme of “consistency,” as far as how the community treats differing rhetorics.

I can’t help but feel like the equivalent of some language thrown at transgender community and in some at cases Ailynn specifically wouldn’t be tolerated nearly as widely (by the community, again I’m not talking about staff, I’m talking about the rest of us) had they been made toward other groups of people, or posters.

If people make accounts on here just to be dicks, I guess that’s their prerogative, and there’s nothing I can really do about it, but I can see how that kind of discourse can really wear someone out.

I think there’s a big difference between weeding out pure assholes and “becoming more like Re.” I guess I just wish I knew what “the line” truly is.

When Virex randomly called me a shit-stirring pussy last week, I mean of course that didn’t make me feel good but that’s not anything for me to dwell on, it’s his opinion and I respect it. But what is the line?

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

People need to be more considerate about the real world effects their actions have on the people they direct this stuff at.

Well, they aren't going to. That's why, whenever I'm walking down a road and look down and see it is paved with good intentions, I make sure the safety is off.

 

[iconmaster]

You can't stop it, but I know how to end it almost immediately

This seems wisdom worth sharing in its own thread, unless you're planning to bottle and sell the secret formula (and I wouldn't blame you; that'd be valuable information).

 

[Boss Mog]

But, for example, when that one account suicided by threatening to beat up Nobody_Important or whatever the troll said, it would have been nice (in my eyes) had more people openly condemned that kind of rhetoric.

If I had seen it, I would have definitely said something.

 

[Yoshi]

But lessons were learned and I now know the secret to protecting yourself from this kind of thing. You can't stop it, but I know how to end it almost immediately, and what steps to take to make sure that its impact is minimally invasive.

This appears to be pretty valuable knowledge, would you be willing to share it?

I am sad to hear you went through what you have .