Basileus777
Member
The rules already discourage discussing the TV series, I'm not sure they need to be more specific than that.
A Song of Ice and Fire BOOK Discussion |OT2| Unmarked SPOILERS for Published Material
- Thread starter Basileus777
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The rules already discourage discussing the TV series, I'm not sure they need to be more specific than that.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Book readers are angels if you ask me. Us TV people would have already written a diss track and blasted that shit all over radio.
RatskyWatsky
Hunky Nostradamus
Okay~
The only thing poorly executed about Jon's fate in ADWD was that it was left as such an annoying cliffhanger. I don't think it was meant to be some totally-out-of-nowhere event, just one of those things that need to happen to get Jon off the Wall & to increase tensions/drama/danger at the Wall even further as we near the finale of the books.
And ADWD is not a "poorly executed" book, that's fucking ridiculous hyperbole. It has a lot of the best writing in the whole series. Maybe you could've shaved some pages out of Tyrion & Dany's chapters, but a lot of their chapters & most of the book otherwise is still masterfully crafted & extremely well written. Ultimately the book feels comparatively lacking because it just leaves most every separate bigger storyline without the kind of climax + resolution + a little bit of aftermath that AGOT, ACOK and ASOS had, but that doesn't mean the whole book was poorly written. They just feel bad for a GRRM/ASOIAF novel that so far have been pretty good at offering a little bit of conclusion at the end of each book, while also leaving plenty of room & opportunities for the future. The kind of cliffhangers ADWD has feel unsatisfying, but ultimately I don't think that negates all the good of the book. It just feels annoying NOW, when we don't have the continuation of the story in our hands.
Moff
Member
very well written, absolutely.
masterfully crafted? couldn't disagree more. the books have extreme plot and pacing issues, both AFFC/ADWD, resulting in a much more boring result than the first three books were, and that's completely disregarding the shocking twists and the conclusions. AFFC/ADWD were a boring mess long before I realized they would not have a satisfying conclusion, that just came on top of that.
and I don't expect that to change in future books. I would rewatch the abysmal season 5 before I ever lay my hands on AFFC/ADWD again.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
I agree.
It doesn't hurt to have more specific rules. The similar rules in the TV thread were written for the same reason.
The problem with AFFC and ADWD is that if feels the story stagnates and it does not move too much forward, mostly because of the way the chapters were divided, not in chronological order, but instead based on geography, until the second half of ADWD. We have been used to a chronological order for the first 3 books, and then in AFFC half of the characters we expected to read more about disappear only to appear in ADWD, but then again, the story starts at the same place it was left in ASOS. So for two books we are left at the same place.
I wouldn't call AFFC or ADWD bad books, I thoroughly enjoyed my time with them, but they don't feel as satisfying as the first three, mainly, of course, because there is never a conclusion to anything.
I do hope there is some sort of conclusion in TWOW, so we are not left with this feeling again. I'm not waiting for one, though.
I wouldn't call AFFC or ADWD bad books, I thoroughly enjoyed my time with them, but they don't feel as satisfying as the first three, mainly, of course, because there is never a conclusion to anything.
I do hope there is some sort of conclusion in TWOW, so we are not left with this feeling again. I'm not waiting for one, though.
What do you mean not a deliberate creative choice? He could have pulled it back, chopped it up and put the battles of ice and fire in ADWD, he chose not to. He deliberately chose not to, and deliberately said so because he views it, as I said, as one story over several books. He wrote more content than was published in AGOT, AGOT + ACOK was supposed to be the one book. But it just so happened there was a happy little spot in which to end AGOT to fit into publishable form. The battles of ice and fire would have made ADWD too big (which he had mostly written when ADWD was released), so he put a line through it and that was it, because ADWD standing on its own isn't what matters to him.
Many people were drawn into the series by that, like your show runners. It should have taken about two minutes to determine Jon was coming back, it was never meant to be a question of if Jon is coming back but how and more importantly what the future character is going to look like. If the series and his arc were too subtle for some, GRRM was out there teasing that shit straight away.
I don't find either AFFC or ADWD boring at all. There are a lot of people who have trouble getting through AGOT & ACOK, so are they also boring messes? Still insanely hyperbolic to call them boring messes considering all the great content both AFFC & ADWD have. Tyrion's storyline is the only one that meanders a bit in ADWD and even that is fairly believable for what he has gone through and it has clear meaning for him as a character & the storyline as a whole. And I found Dany's situation in Meereen far more intriguing that Tyrion's storyline as the Hand in ACOK, considering everything she's up against as an inexperienced ruler vs. an already experienced player Tyrion having to deal with a slightly bitchy big sister and way better odds against Stannis than Dany vs. all slavers on the continent & schemers in her own council.
Maybe you don't like the direction the story is heading, but that doesn't mean it's all a big mess. The scope & complexity has just grown so it takes longer to build up everything that is going to happen. AGOT was mostly moving towards the coup in King's Landing and then ACOK was about the attack on King's Landing. In comparison, AFFC & ADWD have somewhat separate but more or less major conflicts bubbling beneath the surface & already involving and/or broken out in Meereen, King's Landing, Iron Islands, south of the Wall, Winterfell, around Riverlands, the Vale, Dorne and the rise of different fanatically religious sects everywhere. All of it separate yet still interconnected with each other (i.e. the rise of the religious sect is going to cause problems in King's Landing and has needed quite a lot of build up; at the same time Aegon is coming to Westeros, which will obviously tie to Dorne and King's Landing's situation as well; whatever happens in the Riverlands will obviously also affect the future prospects of King's Landing). None of these things can happen out of the blue (so they need chapters upon chapters of build-up), yet they will serve a purpose in the larger scheme of things, as much as their setup doesn't allow for AFFC & ADWD to continue with the insanities of ASOS.
GRRM is obviously having problems getting to the finish line, but I don't think that is reflected too much in the quality of what he has put out, just in the speed in which he gets shit done. ADWD could've used some more time in editing, but I don't think there were hundreds of pages of fluff in there or anything, just a page or two here & there.
So you think that Martin's decision to remove the conclusion from ADWD was a deliberate creative statement about the nature of long book series -- despite being made in the face of mounting pressure from his publishers and readers in the face of ballooning length and wait times -- but that him ending the first three books (written in a more relaxed environment and with greater editing) at more natural breaking points was unintentional and just a happy accident?
Basileus777
Member
It's especially silly when the reasons those aren't in ADWD was a business decision to get the book out sooner and to not have to split it.
Incandenza
Banned
adamsappel
Member
To be fair, that's also the reason AFFC isn't very popular either, being a business decision to split the books by geography. This is where GRRM's process can bite him in the ass, because he'll have one character's complete story arc already written, but not have even started another's.
I don't have to think about it when the information is there and has been for a long time, I just had to be able to read. What do you think he has been lying since 97 in anticipation for how he was going to release ADWD? ADWD was the prioritising of the series within publishing realities, a book can only be so big, physically, and there was no real natural ending point (for most the story threads) within the publishing size. It was absolutely a deliberate creative choice in the interest of not harming the overall series and to the detriment of ADWD as a stand alone novel that he chose not to chop ADWD content to cram the Battles of Ice and Fire in.
I've actually started to re-read the series. Previously, I only read up to the second book, 'A Clash of Kings', but I was so busy with other activities (job hunting, school, etc.) that I had to put it down. It's a slow burn for me, as I'm about done reading 'A Game of Thrones' (started reading in December of 2015) and I'll take a crack at the second volume starting tonight.
I will say, I have forgotten how much of a cruel, malicious idiot Joffrey was. One of the few characters that can make my blood boil, just by sheer stupidity alone.
I will say, I have forgotten how much of a cruel, malicious idiot Joffrey was. One of the few characters that can make my blood boil, just by sheer stupidity alone.
Cornballer
Member
It's been a week and I'm moving this over into Community. It's a good time to subscribe to the thread if you haven't already.
Walter White Walker
Member
It seems to me like there's no way he's ending this in two more books. Even getting two more books out of him seems a stretch, three seems nigh impossible. I look forward to our inevitable fan-fiction written ending of the series.
Gabriel_Logan
Member
Who's the worse author they can have finish the books? My pick Steven King.
Cesare Borgia
Banned
I thought Jon's fall was very well done, and one of the reasons I liked AFFC/ADWD: there were major consequences to major characters making bad decisions while ruling. Both books are largely about Cersei, Jon, and Dany ruling. Jon made some good decisions but also made some terrible ones which led to his demise as well as made it possible (such as sending loyal friends away/isolating himself).
The thing I hated was the cliffhanger. Both AFFC and ADWD really do a poor job of handling the end of POVs.
The thing I hated was the cliffhanger. Both AFFC and ADWD really do a poor job of handling the end of POVs.
Seeing a lot of sites claiming that Winds of Winter is complete and with the publisher but they are holding it back to not sow confusion with the show since it's currently airing. GRRM has said nothing about the book being done so I don't know what to believe but if they are holding it back I that would make me very angry.
Stephen King is great, what are you on about?
Sounds like clickbait, why wouldn't they announce during the series airing for extra hype and free advertising.
Think of it this way, it makes the wait until the next book shorter.
Who am I kidding, GRRM is just going to not write until the book is released.
KuwabaraTheMan
Banned
I'm going to take this with a massive helping of salt unless some really reputable source starts backing this up.
That said, I wouldn't be completely surprised if the book was complete or close to complete. But I'm not sure why a bunch of web sites would be privy to that information, so I'm going to guess bullshit on those claims.
Bots are better than you
Banned
It can't be finished, GRRM probably saw the new Epic Rap Battles of History video and got distracted for weeks again. *joke*
Cesare Borgia
Banned
It's not true. Martin has said multiple times that when it's done he will announce it on his blog or website.
I'd imagine it's well past the halfway point but there's no point in hoping for news or anything else. I hope Martin was embarrassed as he watched Sunday's ep. Dance came out right when S1 was released. Meaning he had a five year head start to resolve a huge plot point and reveal Jon's parentage. Now both will be done on the show, perhaps a year before Winds comes out. Pathetic.
Yea we all knew Jon was coming back, it's clearly spelled out in the book...but still.
I know he has...but I want so badly TO BELIEVE
I know there's no chance it's true but damn you for doing this!
Could we avoid confirming/deconfirming even the "obvious" things happening on the show?
And whilst I'm at it, I have the game of spoils add on and it works great for Facebook and Reddit, but doesn't do shit with my local (Norwegian) news outlets. Any one know how to crack this problem?
Edit: I could maybe just drop their webpages and find the news on Facebook I guess...
Basileus777
Member
My uncle's friend told me GRRM finished the whole series in 1996 and has just been fucking with us for the past 20 years.
Incandenza
Banned
Yeah I have an uncle who works for GRRM and he read the whole book already and he says Cleganebowl is in it
All that secrecy though, helps nothing. I wish GRRM was more like Brandon Sanderson. That would be nice and not have people guessing for years as to when, if ever, the books will be done.
Basileus777
Member
GRRM was more open in the past, but it burned him because he often raised false expectations as he was always wrong about how much work he had left and how long it would take.
Do we even know what George likes to listen to? The only thing I picked up is that he is a Lily Allen fan? And since now I am to I would take more music recs form the guy
I want this to be true so, at lest, I know it's done. I wouldn't even be angry if they are holding it back. AT ALL.
PHOENIXZERO
Member
Do we even know what George likes to listen to? The only thing I picked up is that he is a Lily Allen fan? And since now I am to I would take more music recs form the guy
I thought it was already established George doesn't like to listen to anyone?
I would like to talk to you guys about this book's release date. I will be using information from George's blog post to back up my theory. The blog post can be seen here if you haven't already read it http://grrm.livejournal.com/465247.html.
The plan was to have to book finished on or before the last day of 2015. George and his publishers decided that they wanted to release the book before season six of the show. That meant that the book had to available by the end of march since the show would most likely air in April. The publishers gave him a deadline to make this a reality. They wanted the manuscript by the end of October. George thought he could pull this off. This was in May by the way. So he thought he could finish with just 5 more months if i'm understanding this right.
He didn't finish before the deadline (Much shock). It seems like the publishers planned for this. They told him about plans to speed up the production. All George had to do was deliver the manuscript on or before the last day of 2015. They would still have enough time to release the book before the show with this deadline. George was confident he could pull this off. Sadly, he was unable to make this deadline. Deadlines really stress this guy out. Can't really blame him for that.
What can we take away from all of this? The book was nearing completion at the end of last year. At least the author thought it would be done if nothing else. The deadlines were all about getting the book out before the show. Everyone was confident they could make that happen. This leads me to believe that the book has to be almost done at this point as long as he doesn't need to make some drastic rewrites.
The publisher needs 3 months to release the book on store shelves. The author was confident he could finish by the end of the year. What if he was close enough to finish it in a few more months after the deadline? What if (stay with me here) the manuscript is already done? Your probably calling me crazy after reading that last sentence lol. What if though? I started thinking about the best way to announce the release date at this point if its done. There is really only one way to do it. Any other way would be a huge mistake. The best way to announce the release date for this book is after the credits of this seasons 10th episode. The hype would be off the charts. Just imagine the credits ending and then George appears on screen with his turtle hat to announce the release date. So many people would preorder right away. It almost seems crazy to me now to announce the release date any other way.
This is only a possibility is the book is done now and they are sitting on the announcement I suppose. What do you think? Could the book be done? Would they be smart enough to hold the announcement for the end of the 10th episode. I'm sure HBO would be down for having George make the announcement or have it show up as text at the very least at the end of the episode. I really think we will get this book by the end of the year in any case.
Corpsepyre
Banned
The show's passed the books, and will end after 2 more shorter seasons, presumably. GRRM can write in peace now and release it when he deems it right to do so.
Yeah, I'm optimistic too, if he thought he could finish it by the October 2015 and was close enough to delay it by 2 months, then I really think we will be seeing it sooner rather than later. I'm not sure HBO will want to tie it into the show though, it's not really their duty to promote the books.
Conkersbadfurday
Member
What we don't know is what draft he's on or his general writing process. If he isn't done WRITING yet, then he's still going to go through tons of editing/continuity checks, right? I know he has a team for that, but still. That takes lots of time.
Or he's done and it's still being polished.
Who knows? It'll show up when it shows up, but by then I'll know the basic plot becuase it's impossible to escape GoT now that the show is so damn big.
Or he's done and it's still being polished.
Who knows? It'll show up when it shows up, but by then I'll know the basic plot becuase it's impossible to escape GoT now that the show is so damn big.
I think I recall it being mentioned before that the books are edited as they are written. Obviously that's not the same as editing the whole thing, but at least some of it is being done already.
I know its not their duty. I just think it would be mutually beneficial for both of them.
I know that. I've been waiting years like everyone else. I'm just trying to be hopeful here. We have real reason to think it could come out this year if nothing else.
