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[voodoopanda]

I'm a huge fan of Jack Kirby, I love his whole wild Fourth World stuff. The way I see it, from having read tons of 60s & 70s Stan Lee & Kirby, all the out-there weird stuff is pure Kirby. Stuff like Galactus, Silver Surfer, lots of cosmic Marvel. A lot of the more creative & interesting story lines feel very Kirby-ish. But something which Stan Lee brought to the table that I think was really important to the success of Marvel comics was giving the characters personality. If you've ever read some of the early 60's DC stuff, the characters are seriously lacking in personality. Reading 60s Spider-Man or Fantastic Four, the personality and interplay between the characters is huge. Comparing those two kinda brings it out, FF is full of weird space adventures & time travel & magic & bizarre machines & weird monsters & alien worlds, Spider-Man is mostly fighting differently themed crooks in the streets of New York, many themed after animals. But both have personality on lock. Kirby's solo-efforts like Fourth World is just a nonstop rollercoaster ride of weird worlds & bizarre characters, & they're always shouting bizarre declarations about ASTRO FORCE or MOTHER BOXES. I can't get enough of that stuff personally tho.

The problem was for decades Stan Lee was given way too much credit for the whole deal, when a lot of stuff came from Kirby as well.

Another interesting example like Doom Patrol/X-Men is Man-Thing/Swamp Thing.

 

[Sibersk Esto]

Normally I'd assume this is a joke, but since Slayven is saying it... is this true?

It's a joke, but that was the explanation for superman once upon a time

 

[Sanjuro]

Here's a story from Jim Shooter I thought was interesting. This was from 1986.

Everything towards the end of Kirby's life just makes me sad. This story even more so.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

So what was Kirbys role in creating Spider-Man? He wasnt even doing the art.

 

[brandonh83]

fuck his cameos too.

It's annoying how people act surprised or humored when he appears. It's like yeah no shit. I don't hate the cameos but man they make a big deal about it. It was only really done well in the first Amazing Spider-man.

 

[Pop-O-Matic]

Normally I'd assume this is a joke, but since Slayven is saying it... is this true?

Probably something from that fucked up first edition of Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, the same book that gave us Cyclops's eyes being portals into the punch dimension.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

So what was Kirbys role in creating Spider-Man? He wasnt even doing the art.

He was originally hired to do Spider-Man, but Stan Lee didn't like it so he put Ditko on it instead.

Kirby also drew the first Spider-Man cover.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb...base/images/6/6c/Amazing_Fantasy_Vol_1_15.jpg

Kirby's version of the events differ obviously.

 

[Slayven]

Normally I'd assume this is a joke, but since Slayven is saying it... is this true?

It's a joke, but that was the explanation for superman once upon a time

Yep, man the 80s were a life time ago

When the Superman character was revised by John Byrne shortly after Crisis on Infinite Earths, it was decided to place restrictions on his abilities. This was designed to make it easier for writers to come up with suitable challenges for the hero, and to eliminate or reduce those powers that had become too sensational or unbelievable for modern audiences. Emphasis was placed on yellow sun energy as a source for the character's powers. Superman's origin story was altered so that his powers developed gradually as his body absorbed yellow sunlight, and stories such as the Final Night series depicted the character gradually losing his powers when deprived of the sun's energy. When Superman's reserves of solar energy were depleted, as in Infinite Crisis or the Death of Superman story arcs, he required an extended period of time under a yellow sun, or some type of artificial solar enhancement in order to recharge.

Superman's strength was reduced to the point where he could still move tremendous amounts, but the character no longer had the ability to move planets. His speed was also reduced so that he could not exceed the speed of light. While still capable of surviving a nuclear explosion, such events would severely weaken him. Superman's sight, stamina and breath powers were also similarly reduced, and the character was also shown as requiring an oxygen mask for prolonged travel in space or underwater. His mental abilities were also curtailed to the point where he no longer had an eidetic memory, but he remained intelligent enough to outthink among the most intelligent opponents he has faced. The powers of super-ventriloquism and super-hypnosis were not generally used during this period, although it was never stated whether they had been eliminated or not.

An attempt was made to explain Superman's ability to fly with large objects through the introduction of tactile telekinesis. Objects that Superman touched were enveloped by an invisible telekinetic field that allowed him to move them with the force of his will. The ability also explained Superman's ability to fly. This power was the only ability originally duplicated in the Superboy clone, allowing him to emulate Superman's strength, speed, and flight capabilities, but none of his sensory powers. Over time, Superboy, or Kon-El as he came to be known, would eventually develop the same set of powers as the original.

 

[Daingurse]

Funny that the first time I learned of the tension between them was from X-Play lol.

 

[Garlador]

Another interesting example like Doom Patrol/X-Men is Man-Thing/Swamp Thing.

As strange as that was, I honestly think most people in comics chalked that one up to bizarre coincidence. Man-Thing came out May 1971, and then Swamp Thing came out July 1971. It was just a weird stroke of similarities.

The two creators in fact even talked about it and joked that neither of them could take the other to court because both characters were so similar to the character The Heap.

It's annoying how people act surprised or humored when he appears. It's like yeah no shit. I don't hate the cameos but man they make a big deal about it. It was only really done well in the first Amazing Spider-man.

I thought his last cameo was crazy, stupid fine, personally.

 

[Slayven]

Probably something from that fucked up first edition of Official Handbook of the Marvel Universe, the same book that gave us Cyclops's eyes being portals into the punch dimension.

for a hot minute they said he abosbred solar radiation to open the portals in his eyes. But I like that the Summers boys just be awesome energy sponges.

 

[Beartruck]

Here's a story from Jim Shooter I thought was interesting. This was from 1986.

Interesting. Make sense considering the interview in the OP where roz is constantly hovering and interjecting.

To me this whole story is just sad. It's not like Bob Kane blatantly fucking over Bill Finger and wiping him from history. It just seems like Jack and Stan were 2 people who worked good together who ended things on bad terms.

 

[Slayven]

As strange as that was, I honestly think most people in comics chalked that one up to bizarre coincidence. Man-Thing came out May 1971, and then Swamp Thing came out July 1971. It was just a weird stroke of similarities.

The two creators in fact even talked about it and joked that neither of them could take the other to court because both characters were so similar to the character The Heap.

Yeah Doom Patrol and X-men went out into two wildly different directions. X-men more about the Mutant species, Doom Patrol more about the individual members' trials and stuff.

 

[brandonh83]

I thought his last cameo was crazy, stupid fine, personally.

At least it was a bit different, yeah.

 

[woodypop]

Kirby also drew the first Spider-Man cover.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb...base/images/6/6c/Amazing_Fantasy_Vol_1_15.jpg

Wow, I never realized that was Kirby's work. (Upon closer inspection, it makes sense.)

 

[GAMEPROFF]

He was originally hired to do Spider-Man, but Stan Lee didn't like it so he put Ditko on it instead.

Kirby also drew the first Spider-Man cover.

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb...base/images/6/6c/Amazing_Fantasy_Vol_1_15.jpg

Kirby's version of the events differ obviously.

Whats Kirbys version? I dont get why he should get credits only for almost working on Amazing Spider-Man and drawing one cover.

 

[Hsieh]

Whats Kirbys version?

Stan Lee had originally assigned Spider-Man to Kirby. Kirby came up with a rough draft version of Spider-Man but was later pulled from the project. Kirby's Spider-Man project had gone as far as five pages of Spider-Man's origin story, but Kirby's first five pages were never used.

Kirby's rough draft version Spider-Man was passed over to Ditko who made significant changes to the character. Kirby's original version of Spider-Man didn't have a full face mask and shot webs out of a gun instead of out of wrist shooters. Kirby's Spider-Man wore boots with flaps and was significantly bulkier and more muscular.

 

[GAMEPROFF]

Stan Lee had originally assigned Spider-Man to Kirby. Kirby came up with a rough draft version of Spider-Man but was later pulled from the project. Kirby's Spider-Man project had gone as far as five pages of Spider-Man's origin story, but Kirby's first fave pages were never used.

Kirby's rough draft version Spider-Man was passed over to Ditko who made significant changes to the character. Kirby's original version of Spider-Man didn't have a full face mask and shot webs out of a gun instead of out of wrist shooters. Kirby's Spider-Man wore boots with flaps and was significantly bulkier and more muscular.

Ok, but then I dont see any reason why Kirby should be given any credits, when his version was this different.

 

[Ignatz Mouse]

Another interesting example like Doom Patrol/X-Men is Man-Thing/Swamp Thing.

The creators were also fronds and had been roommates at one point.

 

[rbenchley]

Pretending that half of that Stan Lee stuff is as good as his best solo work is hilarious. I mean really, New Gods wasn't as good as Fantastic Four but compared to fucking Ant Man or Adam Warlock? For real? There's no need to belittle his post Marvel stuff just because you're trying to make a point.

Also you conveniently left off the fact that he invented Captain America without Lee.

I'll belittle his post Marvel stuff as much as I like, because I'm of the opinion that it's dogshit (I should specify that it's the writing I'm criticizing.The art is still excellent). And yes, I place second tier stuff like Ant Man and Adam Warlock above the New Gods, because I have an extremely low opinion of that series and its characters. For my money, the only good things to come out of the New Gods is Darkseid in The Great Darkness Saga in Legion of Super-Heroes, Mr Miracle & Big Barda in Giffen and DeMatteis' JLI (and the great thing about them is that they're not part of some "grand tale of good and evil gods:. Instead, they do everything in their power to live quiet lives in the Connecticut suburbs) and Darkseid getting his ass owned by BatGod in Morrison's Rock of Ages JLA storyline. The Fourth World is a pretentious, boring slog to read and I loathe it.

As for not mentioning Captain America, as someone else pointed out, I was limiting my selections to comics where Kirby was artist and writer. If we compare Kirby/Lee to other Kirby collaborations and not just Kirby solo work, the comparison does look a bit more favorable as you have Captain America, Bucky, the Red Skull and Challengers of the Unknown for creations. Of course you also have the awful 70s version of the Sandman too.

Look, what I wrote is probably a little harsh, but I tend to get annoyed whenever I hear that Lee did nothing and it was all Kirby. Jack Kirby is almost certainly the single most important creator in the history of comics and I adore much of his work, but in my opinion the discrepancy in the quality of characters created by him working solo or with other creators absolutely pales in comparison to the work done with Lee and suggests that Lee's contributions are not to be taken lightly.

 

[Ophelion]

The creators were also fronds and had been roommates at one point.

So, like houseplants or...

;-)

 

[MattKeil]

Funny that the first time I learned of the tension between them was from X-Play lol.

My favorite thing in all the Roger stuff is the idea that Steve Ditko had "trademark ivory-handled switchblades" that would be routinely deployed in the gang wars between the Marvel and DC bullpens back in the day.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

So what was Kirbys role in creating Spider-Man? He wasnt even doing the art.

he didn't get the book initially but he did get in on the creation of the character. DItko got the monthly duties either very early on or after co doing the first issues with Jack or something like that. Jack probably did the first cover and initial design but ditko basically defined the character much like Heck + Ditko did for Iron Man even though Jack was in on the first floor with that char as well.

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

I'll belittle his post Marvel stuff as much as I like, because I'm of the opinion that it's dogshit (I should specify that it's the writing I'm criticizing.The art is still excellent). And yes, I place second tier stuff like Ant Man and Adam Warlock above the New Gods, because I have an extremely low opinion of that series and its characters. For my money, the only good things to come out of the New Gods is Darkseid in The Great Darkness Saga in Legion of Super-Heroes, Mr Miracle & Big Barda in Giffen and DeMatteis' JLI (and the great thing about them is that they're not part of some "grand tale of good and evil gods:. Instead, they do everything in their power to live quiet lives in the Connecticut suburbs) and Darkseid getting his ass owned by BatGod in Morrison's Rock of Ages JLA storyline. The Fourth World is a pretentious, boring slog to read and I loathe it.

As for not mentioning Captain America, as someone else pointed out, I was limiting my selections to comics where Kirby was artist and writer. If we compare Kirby/Lee to other Kirby collaborations and not just Kirby solo work, the comparison does look a bit more favorable as you have Captain America, Bucky, the Red Skull and Challengers of the Unknown for creations. Of course you also have the awful 70s version of the Sandman too.

Look, what I wrote is probably a little harsh, but I tend to get annoyed whenever I hear that Lee did nothing and it was all Kirby. Jack Kirby is almost certainly the single most important creator in the history of comics and I adore much of his work, but in my opinion the discrepancy in the quality of characters created by him working solo or with other creators absolutely pales in comparison to the work done with Lee and suggests that Lee's contributions are not to be taken lightly.

The comparison is incredibly flawed to begin with. You are comparing characters that Kirby made by himself to characters that Lee made with other people. Jack Kirby is so far and away the most prodigious creator in the history of comic books that you have to isolate it to characters he made by himself to make it fair. If you used those standards on anyone else in the comic book industry (including Stan Lee) it wouldn't be fair.

I understand that you are annoyed that people take all of Kirby's credit, but there's a middle ground here. Blowing off characters like Darkseid, whether you personally like him or not, isn't going to do your argument any good.

 

[kess]

I'm a huge fan of Jack Kirby, I love his whole wild Fourth World stuff. The way I see it, from having read tons of 60s & 70s Stan Lee & Kirby, all the out-there weird stuff is pure Kirby. Stuff like Galactus, Silver Surfer, lots of cosmic Marvel. A lot of the more creative & interesting story lines feel very Kirby-ish. But something which Stan Lee brought to the table that I think was really important to the success of Marvel comics was giving the characters personality. If you've ever read some of the early 60's DC stuff, the characters are seriously lacking in personality. Reading 60s Spider-Man or Fantastic Four, the personality and interplay between the characters is huge. Comparing those two kinda brings it out, FF is full of weird space adventures & time travel & magic & bizarre machines & weird monsters & alien worlds, Spider-Man is mostly fighting differently themed crooks in the streets of New York, many themed after animals. But both have personality on lock. Kirby's solo-efforts like Fourth World is just a nonstop rollercoaster ride of weird worlds & bizarre characters, & they're always shouting bizarre declarations about ASTRO FORCE or MOTHER BOXES. I can't get enough of that stuff personally tho.

The problem was for decades Stan Lee was given way too much credit for the whole deal, when a lot of stuff came from Kirby as well.

Another interesting example like Doom Patrol/X-Men is Man-Thing/Swamp Thing.

I would agree with most of this -- unfortunately, most of Kirby's work after the New Gods was really out there, and barely made sense. Kamandi and Thundarr and the Eternals are recycled from the same concept. OMAC and the Sandman barely have a cohesive narrative. This is an awful facile way to put it, but Kirby was somewhat unfocused early and late in his career (despite whatever awesome concepts he was throwing out there), but his work was in nearly perfect focus during his prime Marvel years, whether or not Lee had anything to do with it.

 

[Dhx]

Here's a great breakdown which gives both men their due. The example I was thinking of was the Cannon Films poster (in the 80s, not 70s). Given Lee's role at the time, he certainly had a hand in that.

http://zak-site.com/Great-American-Novel/ff_Lee-Kirby.html

Thank you so much for this. It's by far the most (and perhaps only) objective account I've ever read on the Lee/Kirby debate.

To other posters: It's a long read, but if you want to learn the facts an make up your own mind, the link above should be read (in full or you'll come away with half the story).

 

[Tatsumaki Senpuukyaku!]

I would agree with most of this -- unfortunately, most of Kirby's work after the New Gods was really out there, and barely made sense. Kamandi and Thundarr and the Eternals are recycled from the same concept. OMAC and the Sandman barely have a cohesive narrative. This is an awful facile way to put it, but Kirby was somewhat unfocused early and late in his career (despite whatever awesome concepts he was throwing out there), but his work was in nearly perfect focus during his prime Marvel years, whether or not Lee had anything to do with it.

He started to lose his eyesight in the late 70s. One of the reasons he tried to break into animation in the late 70s and early 80s was because he knew it and wanted a job that didn't involve being hunched over staring at a drawing board all day. He wasn't anywhere close to the top of his game then, and it shows in his art. Especially the stuff he drew in the 80s.

Even then though he could still produce something like this

 

[Dhx]

Ok, but then I dont see any reason why Kirby should be given any credits, when his version was this different.

I don't want to post the entire thing but check out Ignatz's link in my post above. Search for the heading "Who Created Spider-Man?"

The Summary:

Steve Ditko provided:

Most of the costume, probably including the web pattern, lack of shorts, the front spider, and the idea to cover the whole face, not just part of it.
Everything after Amazing Spider-man issue 2. But that is a different topic: this page is about the narrow technical point of whether Kirby created the initial character.

Stan Lee provided:

The self-doubting dialog

Jack Kirby provided:

the name
the powers
the set up
the characterization
the rest of the costume
the first plots
the first art

They all created Spider-Man and Kirby's contributions are large.