Well that's disappointing.
Actress Daniele Watts reported for lewd acts, goes nuts at police investigating
- Thread starter wanderingprostheyltite
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Well that's disappointing.
The cop was just going out there to access the situation and talk to them. He wasn't going to arrest or detain them as I. He didn't see them having sex. II. There was no evidence of them having sex.
So at best, she probably would have just gotten a warning ("if" you were doing lewd acts, knock it off). But she refused to show her ID, and then threw the tantrum about it being a race thing (she even called her father, and told the police officer to talk to her dad). Basically, situation got escalated because she refused to comply with the police officer. Police officer was just doing a routine check up based on a call that was received reporting a criminal activity.
So much better than horizontal xylophoning.
Then you would agree the trolling is not real input. It's trolling. That's my point that neither should be taken seriously unless it's backed up by more than just that. I don't mind the "walking while black" comment if they add real commentary or expand on it. The same goes for "waiting for more evidence" and they can say what evidence they would like to see IE video, witness, autopsy, etc. Something like that. I just don't care for pointless comments that just emotionally charge the conversation and disregard the actual situation.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
So I'll state this again.
My problem with the majority of Gaf's "wait and see" crowd is that I feel they only want to be hyper rational and hyper robotic in threads of stories that they are less inclined to believe. Yes there are some people here who are known to be hyper rational or contrarian for contrarians sake, but by and large most posters form an immediate opinion on a story regardless of race. Of all the news stories posted how many times do posters chime in with "let's wait and see"?
I don't believe I've seen the "Let's wait and see" crowd as often when stories are posted about someone that has been purportedly raped or abused in some manner. People generally don't doubt someone claiming to be raped or abused in some manner (even though false claims have been known to be made). It's a serious accusation! The only time you will see a "let's wait and see mentality" is if there is doubt. For instance if some random person was accusing a celebrity. People would say "Let's wait and see" because there is doubt and false accusations against celebrities are more common than not.
An officer profiling a black person or being accused of racism/abuse is also a serious accusation. The difference, I think, is that many of the wait and see crowd are so tired of "the race card" (even the officer said this, although accurate in this circumstance) and they view black discrimination as a wholly overt and never subtle thing -- so they generally have huge reservations (or are hyper rational) when confronted with possible racism against blacks -- especially if police are involved -- even though data has proven that the judicial system targets blacks at an alarmingly high rate even though we only make up 13% of the population and commit the same amount of crimes as whites. There is doubt, so that phrase is used.
I feel as if a good amount of these people don't believe that racism and prejudice are as rampant as they really are. They don't believe it to be as pressing or alarming as it is. As others often say, they think it's somewhere, surely, but not ever in front of us.
Reasoned hesitance is fine. I see it all the time on gaf but it's posted in such an un-inflammatory way :
"This story is awful if true."
I do see this often posted by people who are willing to 1) comment on the reported story 2) supply their position 3) reserve judgement
The "wait and see" crowd are usually saying that to:
1) wait for information that supports their disbelief or hyper rational hesitance.
To me there is subtle context to the statement let's wait and see. To me it doesn't add anything to the conversation. No one here is stupid. We all understand that there could be more information to invalidate what is being presented. We will still form an opinion on the information given and comment on the situation. Again, that's how science works. You form a conclusion on the information given and then when more is given you adjust or you have more information to support your original stance.
The hyper rational wait and see until you have all the facts mentality does absolutely nothing because it often assumes that there IS more information that needs to be gathered to reach a proper conclusion when there actually may not be more information that needs to be gathered to a reach conclusion. Yes we may find out the whole story with infinite detail but if the outline still holds true then the "let's wait and see" mentality holds no purpose. It's a supremely naive comment on a discussion forum as well. No one is going to wait to comment. No one is going to wait to form an opinion. People can and do have reservations and people can and do realize that more information could change things. But no one is going to wait and see.
That's why I prefer if someone comment with the caveat "if true". Because it maintains that there could be more information that changes what's presented, but this also could be all the information we need to unbiasly judge the situation.
If a known white actress claimed to be harassed by cops most people would automatically believe her until more information came out. Yes, some users who appeal to authority would probably echo that tired phrase but most would believe her as done here with Danielle Watts.
My problem is that society has data proven bias against blacks and Neogaf is no different. I am not calling the "let's wait and see" crowd racist. But I do think that subconsciously a lot of the people who hold that mentality do not afford the benefit of the doubt to blacks the same way they do to whites especially in relation to state enforced oppression.
My problem with the majority of Gaf's "wait and see" crowd is that I feel they only want to be hyper rational and hyper robotic in threads of stories that they are less inclined to believe. Yes there are some people here who are known to be hyper rational or contrarian for contrarians sake, but by and large most posters form an immediate opinion on a story regardless of race. Of all the news stories posted how many times do posters chime in with "let's wait and see"?
I don't believe I've seen the "Let's wait and see" crowd as often when stories are posted about someone that has been purportedly raped or abused in some manner. People generally don't doubt someone claiming to be raped or abused in some manner (even though false claims have been known to be made). It's a serious accusation! The only time you will see a "let's wait and see mentality" is if there is doubt. For instance if some random person was accusing a celebrity. People would say "Let's wait and see" because there is doubt and false accusations against celebrities are more common than not.
An officer profiling a black person or being accused of racism/abuse is also a serious accusation. The difference, I think, is that many of the wait and see crowd are so tired of "the race card" (even the officer said this, although accurate in this circumstance) and they view black discrimination as a wholly overt and never subtle thing -- so they generally have huge reservations (or are hyper rational) when confronted with possible racism against blacks -- especially if police are involved -- even though data has proven that the judicial system targets blacks at an alarmingly high rate even though we only make up 13% of the population and commit the same amount of crimes as whites. There is doubt, so that phrase is used.
I feel as if a good amount of these people don't believe that racism and prejudice are as rampant as they really are. They don't believe it to be as pressing or alarming as it is. As others often say, they think it's somewhere, surely, but not ever in front of us.
Reasoned hesitance is fine. I see it all the time on gaf but it's posted in such an un-inflammatory way :
"This story is awful if true."
I do see this often posted by people who are willing to 1) comment on the reported story 2) supply their position 3) reserve judgement
The "wait and see" crowd are usually saying that to:
1) wait for information that supports their disbelief or hyper rational hesitance.
To me there is subtle context to the statement let's wait and see. To me it doesn't add anything to the conversation. No one here is stupid. We all understand that there could be more information to invalidate what is being presented. We will still form an opinion on the information given and comment on the situation. Again, that's how science works. You form a conclusion on the information given and then when more is given you adjust or you have more information to support your original stance.
The hyper rational wait and see until you have all the facts mentality does absolutely nothing because it often assumes that there IS more information that needs to be gathered to reach a proper conclusion when there actually may not be more information that needs to be gathered to a reach conclusion. Yes we may find out the whole story with infinite detail but if the outline still holds true then the "let's wait and see" mentality holds no purpose. It's a supremely naive comment on a discussion forum as well. No one is going to wait to comment. No one is going to wait to form an opinion. People can and do have reservations and people can and do realize that more information could change things. But no one is going to wait and see.
That's why I prefer if someone comment with the caveat "if true". Because it maintains that there could be more information that changes what's presented, but this also could be all the information we need to unbiasly judge the situation.
If a known white actress claimed to be harassed by cops most people would automatically believe her until more information came out. Yes, some users who appeal to authority would probably echo that tired phrase but most would believe her as done here with Danielle Watts.
My problem is that society has data proven bias against blacks and Neogaf is no different. I am not calling the "let's wait and see" crowd racist. But I do think that subconsciously a lot of the people who hold that mentality do not afford the benefit of the doubt to blacks the same way they do to whites especially in relation to state enforced oppression.
That's EXACTLY how I understood this went down at first. A good lesson to learn.
This lady isn't doing anyone any favours. Now every time someone claims to be a victim of racial profiling this ridiculous story will be brought up to discredit them.
What about the discarded tissue, was it collected as evidence? I'm assuming it contains bodily fluids.
Son of Cervantes
Member
They weren't arrested so there was no need to collect any evidence, I assume.
I think the problem is that people want to react emotionally to things that are injust. That, even if the story ends up not being true, they are still upset about the idea of abuse/corruption. So the emotional reaction is towards the idea of it (or that it actually happens in other cases). This is a forum, and not a news outlet. So naturally, people are going to use this as a place to vent their feelings.
The problem is, some folks don't think it's responsible to react to a story when you don't have all the information. But then that comes off insensitive, since a bunch of people are venting emotions based on a perceived wrong (or the idea of a wrong). I can agree that there are probably some folks, who are doing this just to be negative (that they have other reasons for doing this). But I can also see someone genuinely thinking it's bad to make a judgement on something without having all the facts.
Personally, I think people should stop focusing on other members and only focus on themselves. Like, if you don't like the fact that people are venting or reacting, then just ignore it. You can feel free to say your peace on it (ie. why you won't judge, and explain why you think it's too early to call). A lot of the posts I saw earlier in this thread (that were of the wait and see variety), were more aimed at critiquing other people for reacting emotionally. (For instance, "this forum has no middle ground" etc.).
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
And my point is that people only want to be "responsible" when it's a story that they are ambivalent to or that they doubt. They are perfectly fine though reacting "irresponsibly" to other stories where "all the facts' aren't present.
Hence my last line, blacks aren't afforded the benefit of the doubt. All the facts have to come in before you ever think about believing them. That is hyper rational. It's not inherently wrong but I know many of these people don't go through that same hyper rational process with other stories of injustice. They assume the injustice has happened until further details are revealed.
Fair enough. I don't really know who these people are. I can only speak for myself. I guess you guys would know more about this than I do. Like I said, I can agree that people shouldn't be criticizing others for reacting to something. Just let people be. I think if you personally have a wait and see method, fine. Okay to express that. But I don't really see the point in aiming that at other people for reacting to something emotionally.
JumpJeff84
Member
Wow, she couldn't have been more busted.
And man, TMZ is nuts. They get EVERYTHING.
And man, TMZ is nuts. They get EVERYTHING.
well it still is pretty unbelievable...
the part with the titties out and the kleenex in front of a building full of people!
and then to proceed to play the race card, just fucking shameful.
Shamrock7r
Member
I'm sure you know specific users that do this, but there are many on here that one to take a reserved approach to these discussions at all times, despite the topic or the race involved, and it is unfair and wrong to attack these people from analyzing things from a logical point of view, of all things.
Skiptastic
Member
Just when I thought I needed a Lionel Mandrake post, that audio (which is on the LA Times Soundcloud in full, btw) pretty much explains it all for me.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
WTF is even going on with that Benz?
Shamrock7r
Member
Many people reserving judgement still hold opinions based on what's known, and discuss those points. The bigger problem is the mentioned hostility towards these people. That potentially destroys debate and is part of a bigger problem.
I Stalk Alone
Member
If she was a gaffer, lionel mandrake would be doing the summary by now.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
If you think I am attacking people that analyze things from a logical point of view I don't know what to say to you.
Shamrock7r
Member
Let me clarify. I'm not talking about you specifically. I was speaking about the general atmosphere in these threads.
DoktorEvil
Banned
They're better at journalism than Variety is, even if their specialty is Hollywood gossip.
The fact that she was engaged in a sexual act in public in broad daylight and SHE was the one to break the story tells you that she's not a celebrity.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
Not condoning it but this pretty much sums up the reason the atmosphere is the way it is.
This. As a black man who has actually has to deal with real life misbehavior and suspicion from many police officers, what this chick did was reprehensible.
A best that post is a justification for emotional, irrational reactions. The analogy of the house fire is very silly and frankly doesn't make any sense whatsoever.
Good lord what
Nobody was expecting her initial account to be so full of horseshit. That story left a bit of wiggle room in terms of what the cops were told by the dispatcher and whether she was being detained before being asked to identify herself. I was waiting to see more about those factors of the case, myself.
Everybody here was on the same page, though, including those who were arguing that people should show ID whenever cops ask to see it. We all thought the bulk of the story most likely played out like she and her husband said - an innocent couple was harassed by the police after being seen 'making out'. For that to be wrong would mean that she was the worst kind of liar possible, and there was no reason for anyone to even guess that.
Everybody here was on the same page, though, including those who were arguing that people should show ID whenever cops ask to see it. We all thought the bulk of the story most likely played out like she and her husband said - an innocent couple was harassed by the police after being seen 'making out'. For that to be wrong would mean that she was the worst kind of liar possible, and there was no reason for anyone to even guess that.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
I don't really need to argue the merits of every single point of the analogy. Secondly he wrote "It may feel to them as if" ... So you are now the arbiter of what an oppressed class may be feeling? Gotcha.
Anyway, barring the house analogy everything he said was more accurate than not. The first sentence applies to a lot of people in threads like this. They have extraordinary reserves of doubt, hyper rationality and barely any empathy. Whereas in similar situations with people they can empathize with their comments and reactions are drastically informed by that empathy and their doubt tends to take a back seat.
Lacking empathy, they tend to be hyper rational, ready and waiting for debate on every single point possible -- which again, there is nothing wrong with that in and of itself, it's just a little odd to witness it happen with black victims more often than not.
But you already know this and I'm very familiar with your brand of discourse.
Johnny Cage In The Shower
Member
Mrs. Watts _ "I was just Passionately kissing my boyfriend"
Officer_ "Ma.am, I have eye witness' here claiming that you were Horizontal bongoing... And what's that jizzy kleenex doing there on the grass? I may have to charge you two for littering if the lab test from it cum back positive, now may I see your ID please?"
Those are unjustifiable feelings. Just because a feeling is felt doesn't mean the actions that follow are reasonable.
And these are the people you're addressing here? Who are they and have you discussed with them the reason for that difference? It may simply be the case in which they're comfortable reaching a conclusion in fact has more that is known it meets whatever theshold they feel is sufficient before they decide. This is simply more assumption in service of a preconception, a common theme in this duscussion.
The kinds of attitudes and emotions that lead to the things being discussed are present in threads dealing with race and are not in many others. Controversial topics lead to people becoming irrational and that's when it becomes useful to discuss unreasoned assumptions and the like.
I really don't understand what's with this silly apprehension toward showing ID. To me, photo id itself was the compromise so the officials don't have to drag you down to the police station and conduct full inquiry. May be in some third world countries, corrupt officials will use it to hunt down your family or something. But in most case it just says your name and address, and they mostly use it as some formality so the cops don't have to go the full length of booking people into jail.
If you have a valid ID, it seems like a silly proposition to make a grand stand on.
Johnny Cage In The Shower
Member
Wow there's a lot more audio here than what TMZ posted a few days ago, We can hear the full conversation between the cop and the boyfriend, the bf does not give a fuck at all...Haha! He is trying to make buddies with the cop... Sounds like the saddest relationship considering they've been dating for 15 months. lol!
Skiptastic
Member
Yeah, I was listening to it and I'm like, "Oh, heavens, they won't be dating for long after she hears this..."
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
I don't (and won't) even need to name specific names. It's present everywhere and on Neogaf. It's been seen numerous times:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3108582/
http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/releases/242975.php
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1559-1816.2002.tb01432.x/abstract
http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi/10.1371/journal.pone.0048546
https://ose.utsc.utoronto.ca/ose/story.php?id=2135
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/10/17/racial-empathy-gap_n_4118252.html
I don't expect you or others to read all these articles as it may seem overwhelming. But this hyper rational super objective stance is seen in these studies by whites towards blacks.
Robot Pants
Member
"So rrreeeeaaaalll"
Slammin' Sammy truly was head of the game. I bet ol' Sammy doesn't get detained by cops anymore. Come, bros. It's time we make the jump the the bright side.
Someone pass the bleaching cream and the meatloaf.
Is your argument that those asking for people to wait on or more objectively consider the facts are motivated, consciously or subconsciously, by racial biases? Because that kind of accusation would require justification, and simply arguing such a thing exist is not that.
Calamari41
41 > 38
If you're going to make a stand, make sure you're actually innocent/not being legally detained. It's the equivalent of trolling a DUI checkpoint (Am I free to go? Am I being detained? No sir I will not roll my window down any more than this!) while actually drunk.
Rentahamster
Rodent Whores
Maybe, just maybe, you're projecting a bit much here. Sheesh. Way to unfairly characterize your fellow forum goers as unfeeling robots with racist tendencies.
Johnny Cage In The Shower
Member
Yeah I am skeptical about how sincere their relationship is/was, the way the guy talks and how relax he is, as if he has no emotional attachment to her at all, maybe he is also (in an odd way) trying to defuse the situation by being chill, (I can see that) But him and her (considering they just fucked each other in public) are in totally different head space (universe) she is throwing a tantrum, yelling and screaming/panicking... he meanwhile, wiping the pussy juices and jizz off his thighs, offering the cop a cigarette, and talking about his successful gourmet, raw food business etc. Meanwhile she's running down the street in hysteria...??
What the fuck, is everyone in Hollywood this cold and detached from each other?
Listen to that audio was like watching Paul Haggis' Crash, except it did not suck and it was a lot more entertaining than that heavy handed, shove everything in your face bullish of a movie.
Foxy Fox 39
Banned
You've read my posts and I've outlined my position already.
Yep, this is part of the problem.(the bolded in the post you quoted) The willingness to just lump anyone with a dissenting opinion into a category like this.
JumpJeff84
Member
I find this story fascinating, and yet I haven't been able to bring myself to listen to the audio clip. I'm sure I'll find it cringeworthy.
And what the hell with Sammy Sosa?!? When did that happen? Gross.
And what the hell with Sammy Sosa?!? When did that happen? Gross.
Calamari41
41 > 38
What I am getting from your posts is that you believe that the people who wanted to wait for more information were still racists for doing so, and just got lucky that this woman turned out to be wrong in the end.
Skiptastic
Member
I can see that, too. I know my wife would kill me for talking like that, no matter what I said ("I'm just trying to prevent you from getting anything serious charged").
I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter.
And now I've pointed out to you that your position has yet to be justified. Would you prefer we allow empathy to dissolve your burden?
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