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[Neo C.]

Ok I think I got it guys!

In the future...

Everyone will be an "investor".

The future is now, then.

But right now, my income as an investor is laughable. In twenty years, favourable in ten years, my main income will come from investement, while my income in labour will shrink relatively (and hopefully effectively).

Those with little money still have to trade labour time with money though.

 

[GavinGT]

Hegel believed we would progress to a point at which our limbs would atrophy and we would essentially become giant brains.

 

[Zaptruder]

Hegel believed we would progress to a point at which our limbs would atrophy and we would essentially become giant brains.

Hegel failed to properly understand the human condition.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Yes, if the future is as I imagine it, we would have giant peni, below average size brains, and not much else.

 

[theBishop]

Broken clock is correct twice a day and all that.

And also... capitalism certainly isn't some immutable unchangeable indestructable bastion of the universal truth and welfare.

Just as it was invented, it can become obsolete.

Will there be systems of 'work' and 'reward' in the post materialist future? You betcha. Will they be similar to what we see today?

On a very superficial level, I'd think so. But maybe those units of work are only as applicable as 'gold' earnt in an MMO.

I think the capitalist class is far more class-conscious than the average worker. And the current arrangement is a pretty damn good deal for them. Income disparity is as high today in America as it was during the Medieval period. You think the beneficiaries don't know this?

Would you say apartheid was a system that simply became obsolete? Of course not.

 

[Fusion Pizza]

Meanwhile in South Korea

 

[Zaptruder]

I think the capitalist class is far more class-conscious than the average worker. And the current arrangement is a pretty damn good deal for them. Income disparity is as high today in America as it was during the Medieval period. You think the beneficiaries don't know this?

Would you say apartheid was a system that simply became obsolete? Of course not.

You conflate difficulty with impossibility.

As much as the upper class would like to control their power, they're not a single united group of people. They don't share a hive mind.

They don't work as an enclave to control the rest of the world; they're simply there emergently from a combination of their greed, intelligence, luck and good fortune. While you may find a large amount of commonality between people of that class, it is ignorant to believe that they all share the same characteristics.

Moreover, it is more than concievable that some among this group will be among those that *want* to bring post materialism to humanity. It's probable - that there are some with egos so large that they liken themselves to be as jesus, mohammed or budda, ushering humanity into a new era of awesome.

I mean, once high quality VR is available, once nano-manufacturing technologies are available, and high quality AI, and all available cheaply through the nature of competition... what can you concieve of the 'upper class' lording over the middle and poorer classes?

When you invent the technologies that allow for post materialism, what can the facet or idea that allows for the control of scarcity and finite resources do?

 

[Stephen Colbert]

What are the odds that we will see the early stages of this in our life times, by our twilight years at the latest.

I would say that they're pretty good.

Whenever robots become as cheap as high end cars, the tech is going to go through a huge boom in development.

 

[theBishop]

You conflate difficulty with impossibility.

As much as the upper class would like to control their power, they're not a single united group of people. They don't share a hive mind.

They don't work as an enclave to control the rest of the world; they're simply there emergently from a combination of their greed, intelligence, luck and good fortune. While you may find a large amount of commonality between people of that class, it is ignorant to believe that they all share the same characteristics.

Moreover, it is more than concievable that some among this group will be among those that *want* to bring post materialism to humanity. It's probable - that there are some with egos so large that they liken themselves to be as jesus, mohammed or budda, ushering humanity into a new era of awesome.

I mean, once high quality VR is available, once nano-manufacturing technologies are available, and high quality AI, and all available cheaply through the nature of competition... what can you concieve of the 'upper class' lording over the middle and poorer classes?

When you invent the technologies that allow for post materialism, what can the facet or idea that allows for the control of scarcity and finite resources do?

My point was that the people who benefit most from this system also have an incredible amount of social power. They will not simply hand over these mindboggling new technologies so that the public can organize an egalitarian society.

Ignoring the significant philosophical questions of living a believable virtual world, just look at today's internet for what form such a VR system would likely take. While the Internet is a staggering achievement in human developmnet, take a look at how it's being used. The last 10 years have been marked by unprecedented surveillance, data mining personal information, location tracking within a few inches, tiny high resolution cameras everywhere, and advertising capable of penetrating directly to YOUR specific individual tastes. That's really just scratching the surface. The internet has facilitated these trends in ways which make telephone wiretapping look quaint by comparison.

As long as these systems are privately controlled, I don't see how you can even consider embedding your consciousness further into them.

 

[Zaptruder]

My point was that the people who benefit most from this system also have an incredible amount of social power. They will not simply hand over these mindboggling new technologies so that the public can organize an egalitarian society.

Ignoring the significant philosophical questions of living a believable virtual world, just look at today's internet for what form such a VR system would likely take. While the Internet is a staggering achievement in human developmnet, take a look at how it's being used. The last 10 years have been marked by unprecedented surveillance, data mining personal information, location tracking within a few inches, tiny high resolution cameras everywhere, and advertising capable of penetrating directly to YOUR specific individual tastes. That's really just scratching the surface. The internet has facilitated these trends in ways which make telephone wiretapping look quaint by comparison.

As long as these systems are privately controlled, I don't see how you can even consider embedding your consciousness further into them.

Again, your point kinda falls flat on its face when 'they' stop been some monolithic entity conspiring together and turn out to be a bunch of different people with different traits and characteristics that are grouped together because of their wealth.

There may be areas of massive amounts of control and exploitation on the internet, just as there are areas of freedom and expression. Moreover, sometimes these two areas coincide. And it's not the worst thing in the world.

I see in the VR post materialist scenario that we'll have similar areas of control and non-control. And that people will visit both and all as they please. (e.g. a future version of WoW - corporate controlled themepark MMO, and a future version of Minecraft; a sandbox VR world maker, where people are free to come up with and create whatever ideas they want and have others visit it).

I don't think the power curve for the world will flatten out completely; it'll just flatten out considerably. After all, individual merit will still count for something. But in a world where material wealth means little to nothing, because scarcity doesn't exist... capitalists are going to have to find a very clever way of wielding power through controlling scarcity.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Computers that learn from experience!!!

http://secondapps.com/neogaf/showthread.php?t=427795

 

[Wray]

It's starting!

 

[Stephen Colbert]

And it looks like theyre making yet another movie about the aftermath... Robocalypse.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Seriously, I fear all these apocalyptic robo movies are deterring scientists from working towards the robot revolution.

I would much prefer a deep intelligent story about the downfall of capitalism due to the end of scarcity than some cliche movie/novel about robots going crazy and enslaving the human race.

 

[Something Wicked]

I would much prefer a deep intelligent story about the downfall of capitalism due to the end of scarcity than some cliche movie/novel about robots going crazy and enslaving the human race.

Scarcity of what in particular?

Water? We got plenty of that on this planet.

Food? We have plenty of land- arable or which can be made arable or food can made to grow in non-traditionally arable land as well.

Petroleum? There are replacements- some which are very similar to petroleum, while others, not so much.

Uranium/thorium? We're all set for centuries/perhaps millennia.

Iron? Got plenty of iron on Earth and a shit ton more throughout the Solar System.

I'll take cliche robot destruction over some babbling, Malthusian self-fellating, populist garbage.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

I think the occupiers touch on a deeper issue than they realize. Yes the wealth gap is continuously growing and investment companies abused every trick they can to the cook the books and make enormous profits, then when it all went to hell because of their out of control packaging and repacking of worthless loans into products that are completely unrecognizable and leveraging them to 1000x what they are actually worth, they get bailed out and turn around and use that money to give all their executives 100s of millions in bonuses.

But bigger than that, nothing is manufactured in the US anymore. And computers now allow one person to do what it used to take a dozen different people working together twice as long to do.

We are going to reach a point where there are no where near as many jobs out there needing to be done, as there are people ready and willing to do those jobs. We are already on the cusp of this, but it's going to grow worse and worse with time.

What then? The current system would see millions of educated qualified people unemployed and homeless, because there just isn't enough work to go around.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Scarcity of what in particular?

Did the whole point of the OP fly over your head.

The thing we are about to be over saturated with is ways to do the work that needs to be done to keep society running smoothly.

The new scarcity that we are going to see in our generation is the lack of jobs for both poorly educated and for well educated and well qualified people to do.

 

[Neo C.]

What then? The current system would see millions of educated qualified people unemployed and homeless, because there just isn't enough work to go around.

There are lots of similar threads lately. My favorite (short-to-mid-term) strategy would still be higher taxes for the rich, then using this money for building infrastructure. longterm strategy would be reducing working hours.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

The only way you can get enough people behind that strategy (and it really is a great way to help ease the transition period to a post-labor society), is if people become aware of the underlying reason why there are and will continue to be far more unemployed and qualified people than there are jobs for the foreseeable future.

 

[XMonkey]

It's a grand problem that really needs to be worked on from many angles. I'd like to start with universal health care in the US.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

It's a grand problem that really needs to be worked on from many angles. I'd like to start with universal health care in the US.

I see your universal healthcare, and raise you tax hikes on the Top 1% to pay for it.

 

[Flying_Phoenix]

I really wish I was currently in the year 3011 so all this stuff would be sorted out.

 

[ndiicm]

I really wish I was currently in the year 3011 so all this stuff would be sorted out.

You'd probably be rich or a battery for the rich. Kinda like now.

 

[Epicus Failus]

The creation of Strong Artificial Intelligence (machine intelligences capable of performing every psychological task a human can, as good or better than a human can) will usher the final transformation of human society, for better or worse. It will either be a swift apocalypse, a dystopia ruled by one or a small group of humans who control the machines, or a utopia of some kind where nobody has to do manual labor (unless they want to), nobody ever goes hungry or cold (unless they want to), and we are free to more or less do as we please within the limits of the law.

Have you ever read The Accidental Time Machine? There is a future culture in that book which is exactly as you describe here.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Awesome TED lecturer talking about this topic...

http://www.futuristspeaker.com/2012/02/2-billion-jobs-to-disappear-by-2030/#more-2314

 

[noah111]

Awesome TED lecturer talking about this topic...

http://www.futuristspeaker.com/2012/02/2-billion-jobs-to-disappear-by-2030/#more-2314

Excellent read.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Another excellent talk about this topic...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QfMGyCk3XTw

from this thread...

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?p=43545218


My basic premise is, that we can either prepare society for this inevitabile point when human labor is no longer needed, acknowledge, and made sure as few people get left behind as possible, or we can walk into this future with blinders on and end up at a place we don't want to end up.

Things like Mitt Romney's comment about the 47% of the population being takers is just the tip of the iceberg in terms of the the kind of resistance an intelligent transition into a post labor society faces.