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AFL (Aussie Rules) 2014 |OT| Haven't you Hird? Bomber's back!
- Thread starter jambo
- Start date
This isn't a criminal case so innocent until proven guilty isn't in play.
ASADA believe there is enough evidence that players took illegal drugs. They have issued Show Cause Notices to those players.
If they have evidence that ASADA is wrong they should now produce that evidence.
By taking court action, rather than follow the ASADA process, speaks volumes to the innocence or lack there-of of the club
ASADA believe there is enough evidence that players took illegal drugs. They have issued Show Cause Notices to those players.
If they have evidence that ASADA is wrong they should now produce that evidence.
By taking court action, rather than follow the ASADA process, speaks volumes to the innocence or lack there-of of the club
Is that not what the notices do?
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/asada-...iderable-body-of-evidence-20140613-3a120.html
Maybe they have. Who knows?
Maybe in the Show Cause Notice it says for the player and their lawyer to contact ASADA to go over it all.
Regardless, why do they need to see the evidence?
Say I get a speeding ticket in the mail.
If I believe I didn't speed I fill out a form saying it wasn't me and send it back. I attach evidence as well - such as my parking ticket showing my car was parked at the time (or something)
If the cops have photo evidence of my car then they produce that telling me I'm a liar. If they don't have the evidence then I'm off free.
But I don't need to see their evidence against me to begin with, I provide my own evidence as to why they are wrong
@AxeMan: In the past though, looking at other codes such as athletics or cycling as prime examples, routine and random tests have been used to ban and strip winners of their records (examples are numerous). Samples are kept for years too in the event substances that cannot be detected with current methods might be detectable down the line.
Surely some 2012 Essendon players would have had samples taken? Maybe even most of them should have had multiples on file if the league is at all serious about making sure the competition is clean (and if not, why not?).
Unlike others who have proclaimed guilt from day 1, my position has been pretty fluid but clear.
Either:
a) The club/players did the wrong thing or
b) The league itself has been caught unaware and is making an example of one
If the club did the wrong thing it looks like the players were duped or misled, yet they are the ones that wear the penalties. So too do the clubs some of them have transferred to if there are ex-Essendon players involved. That's an absolute clusterfuck if it's the case.
Yet, if 2-year penalties are to be implemented, surely there must be some evidence beyond the players saying "I think I might have been given something unknown". To nuke someone's career without proof is not going to make it past any legal challenge.
I think if you assume the players or some were indeed given injections of banned substances with misinformation, the most ethical stance I can see would be for each player to put their hands up, concede the injections, argue that they were misled, and sue the fuck out of the club. But in that instance they should not be getting 2 year bans if they were told they were taking X, but were instead given Y.
Surely some 2012 Essendon players would have had samples taken? Maybe even most of them should have had multiples on file if the league is at all serious about making sure the competition is clean (and if not, why not?).
Unlike others who have proclaimed guilt from day 1, my position has been pretty fluid but clear.
Either:
a) The club/players did the wrong thing or
b) The league itself has been caught unaware and is making an example of one
If the club did the wrong thing it looks like the players were duped or misled, yet they are the ones that wear the penalties. So too do the clubs some of them have transferred to if there are ex-Essendon players involved. That's an absolute clusterfuck if it's the case.
Yet, if 2-year penalties are to be implemented, surely there must be some evidence beyond the players saying "I think I might have been given something unknown". To nuke someone's career without proof is not going to make it past any legal challenge.
I think if you assume the players or some were indeed given injections of banned substances with misinformation, the most ethical stance I can see would be for each player to put their hands up, concede the injections, argue that they were misled, and sue the fuck out of the club. But in that instance they should not be getting 2 year bans if they were told they were taking X, but were instead given Y.
^^
Fair response but from my understanding what the players are accused of taking doesn't stay in the body for long - 30 minutes max. Pretty hard to get a sample on that.
It seems you think the penalties are too harsh, and they maybe. Remember the AFL didn't want to sign up to the WADA code to begin with, they were basically forced to by the government - AFL's government funding held to ransom if they didn't.
They are the rules we play by. If Essendon don't like it then don't play
I still hold to the idea that if Essendon accepted guilt to begin with, players would have had the minimum sentence (6 months) and the saga would have been over 6 months ago.
Hird would have been gone for good, but that's a good thing, and he definitely isn't coming back now.
The AFL want this gone as much as Essendon do, the problem is that Essendon rejected the AFL's way of doing things and went their own way.
They are now reaping what they have sowed
Fair response but from my understanding what the players are accused of taking doesn't stay in the body for long - 30 minutes max. Pretty hard to get a sample on that.
It seems you think the penalties are too harsh, and they maybe. Remember the AFL didn't want to sign up to the WADA code to begin with, they were basically forced to by the government - AFL's government funding held to ransom if they didn't.
They are the rules we play by. If Essendon don't like it then don't play
I still hold to the idea that if Essendon accepted guilt to begin with, players would have had the minimum sentence (6 months) and the saga would have been over 6 months ago.
Hird would have been gone for good, but that's a good thing, and he definitely isn't coming back now.
The AFL want this gone as much as Essendon do, the problem is that Essendon rejected the AFL's way of doing things and went their own way.
They are now reaping what they have sowed
If they're playing tactically then yeah, it may have been smarter to let it be done with last year. But maybe there is a genuine reason for wanting to contest this beyond the obvious problem of admitting guilt (if they are).
The big related problem though is that the cases and arguments from ASADA and the AFL have been leaked regularly through the media, so we've only heard one side of the story. Essendon has kept quiet, and aside from Reimers, even the ex-players have kept quiet too. That's why I think the rush to form judgement has been way too much from many people. The future may vindicate them, but only by accident.
Still, it's completely tainted my impression of the whole setup. ASADA, the AFL, possibly the club too. And I bet it's still far more pervasive than just them.
The big related problem though is that the cases and arguments from ASADA and the AFL have been leaked regularly through the media, so we've only heard one side of the story. Essendon has kept quiet, and aside from Reimers, even the ex-players have kept quiet too. That's why I think the rush to form judgement has been way too much from many people. The future may vindicate them, but only by accident.
Still, it's completely tainted my impression of the whole setup. ASADA, the AFL, possibly the club too. And I bet it's still far more pervasive than just them.
No side is clean, none. Both sides have leaked, AFL and Essendon, I don't think ASADA would have.
Essendon players were always going to be issued infractions once Essendon said they weren't sure what they gave the players and it was found links to banned substances - always
AFL (as an organisation) is crooked though - no argument from me there
Essendon players were always going to be issued infractions once Essendon said they weren't sure what they gave the players and it was found links to banned substances - always
AFL (as an organisation) is crooked though - no argument from me there
Vince, I'm going to outline why I think you're wrong with no snarky comments or anything.
There's plenty of evidence to back up ASADA's case.
1. The players signed a consent form which stated they would be injected with Thymosin. Now, there are two forms of Thymosin - one is called Thymomodulin and is legal, and one is called Thymosin Beta 4 (TB4) and is and always has been illegal under the WADA code. If this was all they had, you could absolutely say the evidence was insufficient because hey, who knows what kind it was or if they even ended up using it? The problem is....
2. There's a paper trail of invoices for 'Thymosin' paid for and delivered to Essendon.
3. There's text messages between Dank and his suppliers where he is told the dosage levels and that aligns with the usage of TB4, not Thymomodulin.
4. Thymomodulin is a well known substance used to treat AIDS patients and has no performance enhancing benefits.
5. There's a publicly available interview where Dank says he used TB4 on the Essendon players and outlined the supposed benefits that go along with TB4 use. When the interviewer tells him it's banned, he's shocked. A few days later he tells them he meant the other Thymosin, the one that isn't banned (likely story).
6. ASADA have spoken to both Dank's suppliers (Charters) and his pharmacist (Alavi). Now this is conjecture on my part but considering how confident ASADA are I'm willing to bet they've got evidence showing the supply of TB4.
So we know for a fact that Essendon players were injected with a form of Thymosin. This isn't under question, by Essendon, by Dank or by the players. All evidence points to it being Thymosin Beta 4. There's no evidence that points to it being Thymomodulon.
And what's important is that to issue an infraction notice, ASADA don't have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. The burden of proof isn't that high. At this stage Essendon need to prove that it was Thymomodulin. The problem is, there are no records. Essendon didn't keep any.
Also, the idea that Essendon have been quiet through this process is remarkable revisionism. How quickly we forget the Tania Hird interviews. The way they went after Demitriou in the press. Little never seems to shut up. Remember Mark McVeigh telling everyone not to worry, it was just vitamin injections!
Sure, they haven't come out and offered a compelling defence. But that's because they don't have one. Hird hired Dank to implement a cutting edge supplements program. Dank, thinking he knew better than WADA, decided to use whatever drugs he felt necessary. In the process he injected the players with PEDs. All the evidence points towards this happening. That's why Essendon don't want to defend themselves on evidence but are trying to attack the process and supress the evidence forever.
There's plenty of evidence to back up ASADA's case.
1. The players signed a consent form which stated they would be injected with Thymosin. Now, there are two forms of Thymosin - one is called Thymomodulin and is legal, and one is called Thymosin Beta 4 (TB4) and is and always has been illegal under the WADA code. If this was all they had, you could absolutely say the evidence was insufficient because hey, who knows what kind it was or if they even ended up using it? The problem is....
2. There's a paper trail of invoices for 'Thymosin' paid for and delivered to Essendon.
3. There's text messages between Dank and his suppliers where he is told the dosage levels and that aligns with the usage of TB4, not Thymomodulin.
4. Thymomodulin is a well known substance used to treat AIDS patients and has no performance enhancing benefits.
5. There's a publicly available interview where Dank says he used TB4 on the Essendon players and outlined the supposed benefits that go along with TB4 use. When the interviewer tells him it's banned, he's shocked. A few days later he tells them he meant the other Thymosin, the one that isn't banned (likely story).
6. ASADA have spoken to both Dank's suppliers (Charters) and his pharmacist (Alavi). Now this is conjecture on my part but considering how confident ASADA are I'm willing to bet they've got evidence showing the supply of TB4.
So we know for a fact that Essendon players were injected with a form of Thymosin. This isn't under question, by Essendon, by Dank or by the players. All evidence points to it being Thymosin Beta 4. There's no evidence that points to it being Thymomodulon.
And what's important is that to issue an infraction notice, ASADA don't have to prove beyond reasonable doubt. The burden of proof isn't that high. At this stage Essendon need to prove that it was Thymomodulin. The problem is, there are no records. Essendon didn't keep any.
Also, the idea that Essendon have been quiet through this process is remarkable revisionism. How quickly we forget the Tania Hird interviews. The way they went after Demitriou in the press. Little never seems to shut up. Remember Mark McVeigh telling everyone not to worry, it was just vitamin injections!
Sure, they haven't come out and offered a compelling defence. But that's because they don't have one. Hird hired Dank to implement a cutting edge supplements program. Dank, thinking he knew better than WADA, decided to use whatever drugs he felt necessary. In the process he injected the players with PEDs. All the evidence points towards this happening. That's why Essendon don't want to defend themselves on evidence but are trying to attack the process and supress the evidence forever.
Thanks for that. Without being snarky thats the first genuine comment I've seen you write without being condescending.
If what you say is true, then they're fucked. The problem for your argument would be if dank ends up having some evidence to the contrary, but thats about as likely as newscorp leaning to the left.
I think what's most concerning is that if the player were misled about what they were given, they are the ones who still wear any penalties. I know thats how it works, but it's morally reprehensible on the part of the people who lied if indeed thats the case.
I am livid either way, but we need confirmation of who ultimately is to blame. The club, the meds, or alternatively the afl and media. It's one group or the other.
If what you say is true, then they're fucked. The problem for your argument would be if dank ends up having some evidence to the contrary, but thats about as likely as newscorp leaning to the left.
I think what's most concerning is that if the player were misled about what they were given, they are the ones who still wear any penalties. I know thats how it works, but it's morally reprehensible on the part of the people who lied if indeed thats the case.
I am livid either way, but we need confirmation of who ultimately is to blame. The club, the meds, or alternatively the afl and media. It's one group or the other.
Here's an article from The Age that outlines it better than I did: http://m.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/danks-stunning-admission-20140613-zs7ea.html#ixzz34WURlgBE
Wow.
Just saw that. I checked the score 15-20 minutes ago and it was game over. What's happening over there?
It looks like they just don't have the fitness to play a full 4Q, that final quarter fade out has cost them before (Carlton) and almost cost them again today.
As a fan, its frustrating to watch. Stoked that they wont today at least, and the delivery into the forward 50 was much better than it's been all season.
Jables Swan
Member
Second week in a row Brisbane has ruined my tipping.
Jables Swan
Member
Bloody hell Pies. Bloody hell Dogs. Why did you have to have some heart this week?
Bloody fuck.
Got a warning from the police at my train station for swearing when melb got the goal
What? Victoria seems like police state with fines for putting feet on seats and warnings for swearing at sport.
Who would have thought with armed train guards
Surprised no one took Gold Coast. Thought they had every chance of winning.
Looked like Schulz had a day out.
To think the game was close early on.
Edit: Not a great day. Happy Kersten impressed in his first game after pushing for selection for so long.
Looked like Schulz had a day out.
To think the game was close early on.
Edit: Not a great day. Happy Kersten impressed in his first game after pushing for selection for so long.
Geez Dank was one reckless mother fucker, and by association Essendon and the chemist. What a shambles.
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-...ected-of-forgery-by-doctor-pharmicist/5550446
http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2014-...ected-of-forgery-by-doctor-pharmicist/5550446
Pretty tight game tonight. Thought Essendon played much better footy in the third and last than anything they put out in the Dees game.
The two late goals from Motlop were pretty great.
Edit: http://www.afl.com.au/video/2014-06-27/motlop-kicks-the-goal-of-the-night
The two late goals from Motlop were pretty great.
Edit: http://www.afl.com.au/video/2014-06-27/motlop-kicks-the-goal-of-the-night
Friday June 27th
Geelong vs. Esssendon @ Etihad Stadium
Saturday June 28th
Hawthorn vs. Gold Coast @ Aurora Stadium
St Kilda vs. Richmond @ Etihad Stadium
Fremantle vs. West Coast @ Patersons Stadium
Sydney vs. Greater Western Sydney @ The SCG
Brisbane vs. North Melbourne @ The Gabba
Sunday June 29th
Western Bulldogs vs. Melbourne @ Etihad Stadium
Adelaide vs. Port Adelaide @ Adelaide Oval
Collingwood vs. Carlton @ The MCG
Round 15 Teams
Damnit, I changed from the Doggies last night because of their outs. Hopefully Melbourne can turn it around.
Edit: That last 5-10 mins was just contest after contest. And the last Bontempelli goal was superb.
http://www.afl.com.au/video/2014-06-29/bontempellis-goal-of-the-year
Edit 2: Big win if Adelaide can pull this off.
Edit: That last 5-10 mins was just contest after contest. And the last Bontempelli goal was superb.
http://www.afl.com.au/video/2014-06-29/bontempellis-goal-of-the-year
Edit 2: Big win if Adelaide can pull this off.
Jables Swan
Member
Here I come in the tipping boys!
suck it allstars!
V-POWER!!
Was this the EJ Whitten game? Didn't even know it was on.
Jables Swan
Member
I watched it too. I normally give it a miss but last night was really entertaining. Maybe it was to do with no JB on there.
Jables Swan
Member
Channel Nine.
Friday July 4th
North Melbourne vs. Hawthorn @ Etihad Stadium
Saturday July 5th
Richmond vs. Brisbane @ The MCG
Greater Western Sydney vs. Adelaide @ GIANTS Stadium
Gold Coast vs. Collingwood @ Metricon Stadium
Melbourne vs. Fremantle @ TIO Stadium
Port Adelaide vs. Essendon @ Adelaide Oval
Sunday July 6th
Carlton vs. St Kilda @ Etihad Stadium
West Coast vs. Sydney @ Patersons Stadium
Geelong vs. Western Bulldogs @ Simonds Stadium
Round 16 Teams
PhantomZone
Member
I might need to search for a new avatar soon lol
lolSimilar threads
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