Because Ridley Scott has terrible control of the way his movies are edited.
Alien: Covenant |SPOILER THREAD| With more Christian subtext than BvS
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starchild excalibur
Member
So disappointed with the film. I feel about this the way many people felt about Prometheus.
It feels like Ridley Scott kowtowed to those people that wanted a rehash of Alien or Aliens, except that he didn't even deliver on that. Fassbender is a great performer and I genuinely liked him as Walter, but as David he felt hammier than ever in his performance. And I'm fucking tired of David. It annoys me that they're trying to build him up as this supervillain, all supreme leader of a would-be alien military or something. The films are getting more and more grand in scope, and as they go in that direction they're losing a lot of the intimacy that was in Alien and Aliens.
Whereas exploring the Engineers could have led to a new story even beyond the alien antagonists that have been the hallmark of the series, Scott seems content to drop that whole story in favor of setting up an even more blockbuster-y Alien franchise. I knew the film had jumped the shark when I saw Fassbender-on-Fassbender kung-fu in the last third of the film. And it's as if Scott is oblivious to this or that he thinks all his Christ references and religious metaphors somehow elevate the stupidity of the film into something more.
I wasn't that hyped for this one and at this point I don't even know if I'm going to bother with whatever he does next.
Also: as stupid as some of the characters were in Prometheus, I hope no one who raised that point ad nauseam gives this film a pass. Because Billy Crudup following David into a dark lair and looking into an ominous pod just because an already-untrustworthy David says it's "fine" is just as fucking dumb as that character tickling the evil-ass alien in Prometheus.
It feels like Ridley Scott kowtowed to those people that wanted a rehash of Alien or Aliens, except that he didn't even deliver on that. Fassbender is a great performer and I genuinely liked him as Walter, but as David he felt hammier than ever in his performance. And I'm fucking tired of David. It annoys me that they're trying to build him up as this supervillain, all supreme leader of a would-be alien military or something. The films are getting more and more grand in scope, and as they go in that direction they're losing a lot of the intimacy that was in Alien and Aliens.
Whereas exploring the Engineers could have led to a new story even beyond the alien antagonists that have been the hallmark of the series, Scott seems content to drop that whole story in favor of setting up an even more blockbuster-y Alien franchise. I knew the film had jumped the shark when I saw Fassbender-on-Fassbender kung-fu in the last third of the film. And it's as if Scott is oblivious to this or that he thinks all his Christ references and religious metaphors somehow elevate the stupidity of the film into something more.
I wasn't that hyped for this one and at this point I don't even know if I'm going to bother with whatever he does next.
Also: as stupid as some of the characters were in Prometheus, I hope no one who raised that point ad nauseam gives this film a pass. Because Billy Crudup following David into a dark lair and looking into an ominous pod just because an already-untrustworthy David says it's "fine" is just as fucking dumb as that character tickling the evil-ass alien in Prometheus.
Oh man I'm watching Prometheus on FX and just noticed one of the worst movie errors I think I have ever seen. Two of Weyland's bodyguards are seen in the sequence where Fifield attacks the crew. One of these guys has a crowbar thrust into his back and it APPEARS that he dies. At the SAME TIME this scene is happening, Shaw stumbles into the room where Weyland is being prepared to meet the Engineer. The dude that just had the crowbar in his back IS IN THE ROOM with Weyland and so is the other dude with the crew cut who was just seen firing shots at Fifield in the hangar. Crazy !
CartridgeBlower
Member
This movie was edited to hell and back and this proves it. Holy fuck. Both these movies are just complete messes.
Warm Machine
Member
That scene was drastically edited. I believe Weyland was supposed to be in that scene with Fifield. The two scenes probably flopped in the edit or something just like Pervis being with the crew in Resurrection before they even find him.
Yeah, but notice how long it took for the other one to be "born"? Ridley needed to get the Xenomorph onto the Covenant, so he conveniently changes the rate of birth and thought we wouldn't notice.
Absolute garbage...Ridley Scott's ego has taken over and he's lost it. So
Scott has become an egotistical hack. His only goal is to make the Alien universe a mess cause he views it as his do with as he wants. Forget that he only directed the first movie..Forget Cameron, Dan O'Bannon ,Hr Gieger etc. It's same thing Lucas did with Star Wars before Disney rescued it.
no more Queens cause that was Cameron's idea and people loved it. David did it all. And Aliens were invented in the 2100's so fuck the AvP movies which take place in the present day and threw out the idea that Predators regularly fight them. And then throw out the entire premise of Prometheus and that Shaw was gonna find them and find out why they want humanity dead by basically nuking their only city, wtf?!?!? And just leaving it like that. So where does the crashed engineer piloted egg filled alien vessel from Alien come from?!??!? Did you forget the plot of the first movie Ridley??
Demoncarnotaur
Member
First two acts were pretty great, the third was disastrously underwhelming and bad.
Everything with the Xenomorph was all sorts of meh and/or eye rolling, it just felt tacked on and half baked. The Neomorph stuff was a lot more interesting, but it sorta gets forgotten about and feels pointless.
As a sci-fi monster flick, the movie is pretty good - but it's many degrees removed from Alien and Aliens, and sorta negates what made these films special in the first place.
I liked Prometheus more overall, though this did have some fucking solid scenes that felt like they were part of a much better film.
Everything with the Xenomorph was all sorts of meh and/or eye rolling, it just felt tacked on and half baked. The Neomorph stuff was a lot more interesting, but it sorta gets forgotten about and feels pointless.
As a sci-fi monster flick, the movie is pretty good - but it's many degrees removed from Alien and Aliens, and sorta negates what made these films special in the first place.
I liked Prometheus more overall, though this did have some fucking solid scenes that felt like they were part of a much better film.
This is exactly how I felt. First quarter I was like yeahhhhh second quarter ok ok action movie yeahhhh third quarter uhhhhh David is here fourth quarter are you fucking kidding me let's blow an alien out of another fucking air lock really?
Conkersbadfurday
Member
If you watch the commentary, these two scenes were supposed to be put together differently. Basically they put them in the wrong order, but there was supposed to be some overlap too.
I never personally noticed this. When I watch it again, I'll be on the lookout
The script was superior to Prometheus...but that isn't saying much.
They took the laziest route possible by turning David into some deranged psychopath. All the lore and narrative possibilities that were created at the end of Prometheus with the engineers, Shaw, David, seeking out their home world, finding the answers...it was all thrown out the window. David kills everyone - the end.
So disappointing.
They took the laziest route possible by turning David into some deranged psychopath. All the lore and narrative possibilities that were created at the end of Prometheus with the engineers, Shaw, David, seeking out their home world, finding the answers...it was all thrown out the window. David kills everyone - the end.
So disappointing.
The queen can still be a thing that David invents later down the line, especially given that he now has so many test specimens at his disposal. AVP movies I'm pretty sure are no longer "canon". The alien vessel from Alien will apparently be addressed later down the line since this is only the first/second part of a line of Alien prequel movies. Whether or not Ridley will get a chance to make all of them is another story.
starchild excalibur
Member
I can't wait for the inevitable Walter-on-David kung-fu gifs. By the time I reached that point in the movie I was shaking my head.
I really don't see how the script was better than Prometheus. I'd argue, the cast is even more underdeveloped, the pace of the film is off, and for largely any sort of logic to actually work at a certain point in time. You have to take a leap of faith greater than a Bay film. The Navy being able to shoot a super hidden weapon with Bring the Rain written on a napkin? Sure! A man who straight up called the villain the devil, following him down to the pits of hell while he monologues. The entire scene has to be a parody... it cant not work on any other level. But if it was a parody, it does not work at all with the rest of the flick. The script is just all over. The film is basically,
1/3 aping Alien. It doesn't do a terrible job, I thought the initial set up was solid. It's definitely not taking the time Alien took to build up the characters, but it works.
2/3 David's Fun house of horrors. If this is anything but parody, it can not work, but if it is. Then it can't work either with the rest of the film.
3/3 We need a finale again guys... right?!
1/3 aping Alien. It doesn't do a terrible job, I thought the initial set up was solid. It's definitely not taking the time Alien took to build up the characters, but it works.
2/3 David's Fun house of horrors. If this is anything but parody, it can not work, but if it is. Then it can't work either with the rest of the film.
3/3 We need a finale again guys... right?!
Nah....We won't get a queen. He's always wanted to retcon Cameron's movie away. In the Alien Directors cut we see it turning Dallas, I think....Into a new egg host. Different life cycle completely. As far as the Engineers ship from Alien...they describe it as fossilized... Ancient. According to this new retcon oldest it could be is less than twenty years old. He's all over the map and its due to his arrogance. He retconned Guy Pearce in as Mr Weyland over Lance Henriksen as him ie Alien 3 (which was fucked by AVP but whatever) Good article on changes http://www.denofgeek.com/us/movies/alien/264904/how-alien-covenant-retcons-james-cameron-s-aliens-and-more
Dreams-Visions
Member
Hmm.
I guess I'm with everyone else thinking it was pretty mediocre even for a modern Aliens movie. It's been 30 years since we got our last excellent Alien movie. The wait will continue.
Just for clarification: Between the events of Prometheus and Covenant, David and Dr. Shaw survived the alien encounter on whatever planet they were on, figured out how to fly that broken ship to the homeworld of the human-like beings that created it, then proceeded kill them all with their own biological weapon? It seemed like the human-like aliens thought the ship was friendly when it arrived...then David dropped the black shit on them and RIP. Then he proceeded to use Dr. Shaw as a guinea pig for his alien experimentation? Is that the gist? Did I miss anything? I didn't really understand what motivated David to kill the human-like species? He was clear about his motivations and feelings toward humanity, but the original dudes? Not clear.
I guess I'm with everyone else thinking it was pretty mediocre even for a modern Aliens movie. It's been 30 years since we got our last excellent Alien movie. The wait will continue.
Just for clarification: Between the events of Prometheus and Covenant, David and Dr. Shaw survived the alien encounter on whatever planet they were on, figured out how to fly that broken ship to the homeworld of the human-like beings that created it, then proceeded kill them all with their own biological weapon? It seemed like the human-like aliens thought the ship was friendly when it arrived...then David dropped the black shit on them and RIP. Then he proceeded to use Dr. Shaw as a guinea pig for his alien experimentation? Is that the gist? Did I miss anything? I didn't really understand what motivated David to kill the human-like species? He was clear about his motivations and feelings toward humanity, but the original dudes? Not clear.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Why are you spoiler-tagging all that shit
Yes. Shaw took David on the Juggernaut, and flew it to the Engineer's homeworld. At some point during the flight, she reattached his head to his body, and he put her in a sleeping pod. Upon arriving, David opened the bomb bay doors and committed genocide with the black goo.
At some point after that, the juggernaut was crashed into the hill. Film never says who did it.
Between then and the Covenant hearing the signal and arriving, David used Shaw's body for experiments.
Yes. Shaw took David on the Juggernaut, and flew it to the Engineer's homeworld. At some point during the flight, she reattached his head to his body, and he put her in a sleeping pod. Upon arriving, David opened the bomb bay doors and committed genocide with the black goo.
At some point after that, the juggernaut was crashed into the hill. Film never says who did it.
Between then and the Covenant hearing the signal and arriving, David used Shaw's body for experiments.
And yet we don't have scientists trying to pet alien snakes or people running in straight lines. A lot of the idiotic character decisions are more forgivable because the movie doesn't try to depict the characters as being a bunch of scientists. The two people initially infected are military with one guy just casually stepping on something.
The movie cuts out a lot of the Prometheus high minded garbage and while it does retain some slight elements of that, the movie doesn't feel near as bogged down nor up its own ass at times.
by far the worse alien movie ever
angry joe and RLM have great reviews on it that pretty much sum up my sentiments
RLM's review came out today and is pretty great
but yeah, the film was so terrible it actually made me angry
it actually fucked up alien and aliens and made the whole franchise shittier as a result
angry joe and RLM have great reviews on it that pretty much sum up my sentiments
RLM's review came out today and is pretty great
but yeah, the film was so terrible it actually made me angry
it actually fucked up alien and aliens and made the whole franchise shittier as a result
This is in no ways a worse film than Aliens 3/4, AVP, or AVP 2.
Alien was a garbage franchise long ago.
Dreams-Visions
Member
interesting. was this information in supplemental materials for the movie? I've been out of the loop on this one. I didn't even know it was called "the Juggernaut".
I think making the Aliens origin story be that they came from the mind of a bitter, crazy, marginally emo synthetic is probably the worst possible twist. If you really step back and look at it.
We traded that dumb stuff for the captain following David down to his lab of horrors and trusting him that an alien egg is "fine" when clearly neither David is reliable nor does that egg look fine.
And we have a series of scenes were people purposefully split up for NO REASON rather than watching each others' backs, just so they can get picked off like idiots.
Finally, I'd argue this movie is just as up its ass as Prometheus, from David spouting Shelley and Paradise Lost quotes, to the Engineer City becoming the space version of Pompeii.
I agree with Angry Joe in stating Covenant was worse than 3 and 4
as for AVP and AVP2, I'd probably need to do a rewatch but based on memory, yes, Covenant is worse than both. again, it FUCKS UP the mythology and greatly fucks with both alien and aliens, which are 2 of the best films ever
Ya I'm watching three as we speak...It's not as good as the first two but it's a solid movie. Better than the garbage I watched last night.
Alien still is far and away the best in the franchise, and as much as I do enjoy Aliens I'm not too upset that it (and those beyond it) are no longer canon.
What I don't agree with is that Covenant is worse than Alien 3 or Resurrection, because those movies were hot garbage. Particularly Resurrection.
Upon a second viewing, I think Covenant is better than 3 and Resurrection, and marginally better than Prometheus, while not beating out Alien and Aliens of course. AVP can take a long walk off a short cliff.
What I don't agree with is that Covenant is worse than Alien 3 or Resurrection, because those movies were hot garbage. Particularly Resurrection.
Upon a second viewing, I think Covenant is better than 3 and Resurrection, and marginally better than Prometheus, while not beating out Alien and Aliens of course. AVP can take a long walk off a short cliff.
Oh no doubt there's some stupid moments in here. The captain should have obviously radio'd everybody and told them what was happening. You could also argue that the crew should have still had on space suits even though Mother told them the atmosphere was fine. However there are by far less idiotic moments in the movie and they're more justifiable. The crew are closer in tone to the 'trucker' crew in Alien and so boneheaded decisions stick out less. The final 1/3rd of the movie is garbage though and feels like Ridley just sort of gave up and gave in to producer meddling.
The reason David says some of those quotes was again setup to show how egotistical and insane he is. It's less about general themes, although that's obviously a factor, and more about his characterization.
I watched three earlier this year and it's not a better film than this. The visuals are worse, the action is worse, and the climax is worse. Maybe the characterization earlier on is better but that's thrown out the airlock in the second half anyway.
At least the sequences with the alien running down generic corridors in this movie had the decency of being short compared to how drawn out that garbage is in Aliens 3.
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
You should not watch AvP: R again unless you want a migraine from the amateur editing and every scene being incomprehensibly dark.
Rktk
Member
Origin of the eggs, Covenant has them as a creation of David.
waiting for the next film to reveal that the queen is actually just David in an elaborate costume
Herr Schwarz
Banned
All he has to do is some monologue about rebirth whilst looking maniacal then jerry rig a womb to an alien and wallah
Roronoa Zoro
Gold Member
Could be aliens evolved to have a queen (not how evolution works I know but movie could
write its way around that)
If I remember it correctly, Scott didn't want to do a sequel, which is fair enough. Studio vetoed him, put Cameron in and he knocked it outta the park. Imo Scott's be jealous since and wanted to remove it.
I really disliked this movie, but the flute scene was my favorite as well. Really weird but riveting Fas on Fas acting.
So, it's been bugging me why the chestburster was modified to just be a mini-fully grown adult alien. In all the prior films the chesburster is really different looking and then evolves into it. Other than Ridley not giving a fuck, I'm thinking it's because they wanted to have it fully grown like, five minutes later so it could go on the attack. They didn't think the audience would be able to connect the dots between the two different looking aliens, so they just shrunk the adult down.
Sigh.
TheTylerRob
Member
This movie was an 80's schlock slasher movie without any of the fun or humor and they replaced that stuff with half baked cliches and references to superior movies. Possibly the worst alien movie.
I thought it was a great way of establishing both David's superiority over Walter, in that Walter was literally playing David's tune along with David overlaying his fingers over Walter, as well as how David was unique. It does a notable job of outlining the differences between both models.
The movie was already implying some Jurassic Park shit, such as the Alien at the end blowing off David, so it wouldn't be a stretch to say that the final form Aliens have some queen component and we just didn't see it in this movie.
It really doesn't matter that much. Ridley is going to do whatever he wants either way and is retconning his own film at this point with stuff like the timetable for xenomorph development.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
This is true. Scott's taste for sequels is a recent thing.
This isn't, really. Studio didn't have to "veto" anything, because Scott doesn't own Alien.
Also, so far as "jealousy" goes, there was, very famously, a project with Cameron producing and Scott directing, that would have followed Alien Resurrection. I don't think they'd have worked together (and they were ready to go until Rothman decided to go with Alien vs Predator instead of waiting for Scott/Cameron) if Scott was harboring some sort of petty jealousy.
There doesn't have to be some sort of big ulterior motive to Scott's retconning of Alien mythology (such as it is), it's probably nothing more than him not really giving a fuck about canon/continuity if it gets in the way of his doing what he wants to do at the moment.
Rktk
Member
One thing is for sure, whatever he comes up with is going to have to be seen to be believed.
brought to you by 20th Century Fox
Lights and Waves
Member
Shaw being dead literally came off as Fox not wanting to pay to have Rapace reprise her role.
Well veto was just my saying the studio said we dont care what you think we're doing a sequel with or without you. He's stated he didn't like how Aliens turned it in a free for all with tons of aliens and a queen. More action less terror. And if he's retconning Cameron's equally as popular film and take out of the mix, on a universe Scott didn't even create,( Dan O'Bannon and Ol H.r.) Removing everything Cameron added 30 years later is petty and childish. He knows what he's doing.
Eh the Aliens being essentially a creation of Weyland through David re-contextualizes all the stupid shit that goes on from them to try and capture one.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
Where did Scott say he didn't like Aliens, or disliked what Aliens did?
Seriously, I don't think you need to try to set this up as pouty Ridley is jealous of James or whatever. The two were going to make an Alien movie together.
If he retcons Aliens, it's not "petty and childish." It's maybe shortsighted and indulgent, but I really don't see any reason to believe Ridley's flat out pursuing this avenue as some sort of elaborate middle finger to Cameron.
Biggest-Geek-Ever
Member
I can't explain why Scott would go with the baby groot Xeno other than so it can raise its hands with David... but apparently the in-universe explanation is that these things here aren't the Xenos we know and love. I wish I was kidding. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_(creature_in_Alien_franchise)#Protomorph
Bobby Roberts
Banned
That's a fan wiki, isn't it?
Lord knows Alien fans love coming up with their own explanations for the inexplicable.
(although they seem to be citing - you guessed it! - Alien3 as their precedent)
Lord knows Alien fans love coming up with their own explanations for the inexplicable.
(although they seem to be citing - you guessed it! - Alien3 as their precedent)
Later Alligator
Member
just got back
it was enjoyable, but has a lot of flaws. didn't hate it but didnt love it
it was enjoyable, but has a lot of flaws. didn't hate it but didnt love it