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[IbizaPocholo]

https://venturebeat.com/2019/04/16/...n-5-processor-and-what-that-means-for-gamers/

Advanced Micro Devices will provide the central processing unit (CPU) and graphics processing unit (GPU) that will become the heart of the Sony’s next PlayStation home gaming console, which could debut in 2020.

In some ways, that’s no surprise, as Sony has worked with AMD for more than five years on the inner hardware for the PlayStation 4 and PlayStation 4 Pro consoles. This was AMD’s deal to lose, and it has won it again.

“AMD won this for a few reasons, first and foremost because AMD has executed flawlessly over five years on Sony’s console projects,” said Patrick Moorhead, an analyst at Moor Insights & Strategy, in an email to GamesBeat. “While there is some intellectual property AMD can leverage from its scale investments, this is a huge resource and design commitment by AMD as it builds many capabilities that can’t be reused. Also, I believe it has resulted in a more challenging premium discrete GPU capabilities as AMD has to target the mid-range of the GPU stack as its “design center.'”

MD and Sony did not actually say that the CPU and GPU are separate chips. Kevin Krewell, an analyst at Tirias Research, is betting that the Zen 2-based, third-generation, 7-nanometer Ryzen CPU and the Navi GPU will be separate chips, glued together with a data pathway dubbed Infinity Fabric. This single module houses both chips and lets them operate as if they were one.

“Multichip modules are increasingly common in the data center, and AMD knows how to do this,” Krewell said.

Regarding the AMD news, a spokesman for Nvidia said, “This is one more sign of the growing momentum of real-time ray tracing since we introduced our Turing RTX GPUs last year. The excitement among developers and speed of industry adoption is remarkable. In recent months, we’ve seen the introduction of standard APIs, integration in major game engines, multiple Triple-A titles and support enabled in millions of hardware products. It all points to an exciting future for gamers.”

The advantage of using AMD is that it will very likely be able to move the technology forward with a new manufacturing generation and combine the two chips onto a single piece of silicon. That will bring down costs dramatically over the lifespan of a console, as the CPU and GPU tend to be the most expensive things in the box. This continuous improvement and miniaturization allow game console makers to continuously cut the price or add more features into the box over time.

AMD’s combo chips, dubbed accelerated processing units (APUs), are more power-efficient and cost-effective. They tend to beat out similar Intel chips because AMD’s standalone graphics are historically better than Intel’s.

Intel hired AMD’s graphics guru, Raja Koduri in 2017. And he has said Intel is working on a better standalone graphics chip. But evidently, that was too late to be considered for this product, Krewell said.

“If it were a year or so later, that might be a different story,” Krewell said.

Rob Enderle, analyst at Enderle Group, said he wasn’t surprised AMD kept the Sony business.

“AMD’s customer fabrication business was financially and technically better suited to this segment, in effect they had the right square peg for what is clearly a square hole, and they have been executing sharply,” he said in an email. “As a result Sony is happy with AMD, would resist replacing them anyway, and AMD’s competitors both don’t have the right product nor do they like the margins so they won’t take the needed effort. AMD pretty much owns this segment, I expect Microsoft to renew with them as well, and should continue to do so as a result.”

“Rumors of the PS5 have been floating around for almost a year now. After Nvidia’s big roll out of ray tracing last fall, AMD has been cautiously quiet on its plans for ray tracing support. Nonetheless, rumors emerged about the PS5 supporting ray tracing,” said Jon Peddie, analyst at Jon Peddie Research, in an email. “Now, the AMD GPU in the PS5 will be a custom variant of the Radeon Navi family and will support ray tracing. Ray tracing is the new shiny thing, and like VR is completely dependent on good, meaningful content.”

He added, “Sony has always been good at content, that’s why people bought 90 million of their PS4s. Sony has also been one of the only (some say THE only) companies to offer a satisfying VR experience and system — and again it’s reflected in their sales — more than anyone else, almost more than all them combined. And last but not least, Sony is in no rush to get the PS5 to market. That means they have, and will take, the time needed to do ray tracing right.”

Peddie also said, “The AMD processors are first-class, but they are not the biggest or more powerful. So just as Sony did with VR, you can expect the games with ray tracing to be efficient, and properly focused. If Sony and AMD deliver a satisfying ray tracing experience on a custom AMD APU, that means the hardware cost for PCs to offer similar results will be less. So Sony and AMD are moving the bar, and putting ray tracing in the reach of everyone, not just ultra-rich hyper PC gamers.”

 

[V1LÆM]

were Nvidia even trying to get it in next gen consoles? it's no huge surprise that AMD got it...

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

They win based purely on affordability, not on technology.

 

[ZywyPL]

It doesn't mean anything if you ask me - current gen games are written primarily for AMD hardware (PS4/XB1), and still run significantly faster on Intel and NV parts. And as I recall, we heard the exact same story once PS4/XB1 specs were revealed, how it will change gaming, how the games will finally utilize more than 4 threads, how Radeon's will finally perform as the specs sheet suggests, and whats not. Well, the reality turned out to be "quite" different. So I don't expect things to change this time around as well, bare in mind that AMD with its 7nm CPUs and GPUs will be competing vs current Intel/NV 14nm counterparts, so once thew two also go down to 7nm they will once again leave AMD far behind.

 

[ookami]

Well, it makes me happy because if AMD processors on consoles are a success with the next generation they will get much more funds for their future CPU/GPU iteration. Which means more competitivity against Intel/Nvidia. It pushes everyone up.

 

[Darius87]

i think ray-tracing will run much better on ps5 then everyone excpects.

 

[TyphoonStruggle]

Doubtful that Intel or nvidia were chasing the consoles. Low margins I think.

Remember years ago when old-shit GAF would bring up “salt” regarding Nvidia not being in PS4 and XB1? That was dumb as hell. Nvidia wasn’t gonna go chasing peanuts.

 

[Chairman Tickles]

Well, it makes me happy because if AMD processors on consoles are a success with the next generation they will get much more funds for their future CPU/GPU iteration. Which means more competitivity against Intel/Nvidia. It pushes everyone up.

You would think so but no, amd's cut is tiny in the console space. They get picked for their dirt cheap SOC. Discrete gpu's are much much more lucrative, especially in the enthusiast segment. For AMD to make the same amount of money Nvidia makes off 1 2080 sale, it would need to see the sale of many many PS5's.

Only reason nintendo went with nvidia for the switch is because they needed maximum efficiency per watt on the go, and nvidia does that better.

 

[Shin]

This belongs in the first post I think for easier understanding what it actually means.

 

[Von Hugh]

There was no competition to begin with.

 

[Pallas]

Can’t imagine the price of the console with current Nvidia or Intel tech. This is a good thing. Wasn’t aware they were trying to compete with AMD in the console space though.

 

[ethomaz]

There is no other APU option in the market for consoles.

It is hardly a beat when you are the only option.

 

[CyberPanda]

You would think so but no, amd's cut is tiny in the console space. They get picked for their dirt cheap SOC. Discrete gpu's are much much more lucrative, especially in the enthusiast segment. For AMD to make the same amount of money Nvidia makes off 1 2080 sale, it would need to see the sale of many many PS5's.

Only reason nintendo went with nvidia for the switch is because they needed maximum efficiency per watt on the go, and nvidia does that better.

Yea, and Nvidia will be fine.

AMD vs. Nvidia: Which Chipmaker Is the Better Investment?

In a comparison of AMD and Nvidia, there is one clear winner.

www.thestreet.com

 

[Shin]

You would think so but no, amd's cut is tiny in the console space. They get picked for their dirt cheap SOC.

That's the way to success in general, start your way from the bottom and climb to the top.
They already hit rock bottom and is climbing back up now, little by little bit by bit.
https://www.eenewseurope.com/news/amd-takes-65-desktop-cpu-market-0

As time go by and they get RTG sorted out similar success with their GPU's isn't out of the question.
Along with that can and most likely will come because it's a business after all - higher prices for their parts.

 

[Woo-Fu]

It doesn't mean anything for gamers. Nvidia isn't interested in margins that slim and Intel isn't ready to compete in that space.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Doubtful that Intel or nvidia were chasing the consoles. Low margins I think.

Remember years ago when old-shit GAF would bring up “salt” regarding Nvidia not being in PS4 and XB1? That was dumb as hell. Nvidia wasn’t gonna go chasing peanuts.

Yet nvidia tech does appear in Switch. Let's not pretend that nvidia wouldn't have gotten a nice chunk of change for being in PS4 or X1

 

[Fake]

Jez OP you quoted all the article. Reduce the quote and get the best parts of articles.
Anw, nice read. Indeed, I very happy for AMD. And right now Sony have more than 5 years work close with AMD if you count PS4 and PS4pro.

 

[Dontero]

They win based purely on affordability, not on technology.

Affordability is technology driven thing.
Simply put Nvidia doesn't have technology to deliver great product for those console makers at great price, nor Intel.

 

[GoldenEye98]

There is no other APU option in the market for consoles.

It is hardly a beat when you are the only option.

Well Switch uses Tegra

 

[SonGoku]

Well Switch uses Tegra

Mobile chip though

 

[shark sandwich]

Mobile chip though

There are ARM mobile CPU designs that kick the crap out of the Jaguar netbook CPU used by PS4 and X1. Not as good as Zen, but still good enough to provide a generational leap over current consoles. There’s no technical reason why they couldn’t use a custom SoC with ARM CPU and a Turing GPU.

I think it’s more likely that Nvidia wasn’t interested in bidding for a low-margin, low-volume custom design. Their consumer and pro/data center GPUs are selling for ridiculous prices. Why would they dedicate any resources to pursue some console chip that might make them like $20 per chip?

 

[MightySquirrel]

Unfortunately for gamers it only means weaker console than it could have been otherwise.

But since for some unthinkable reason gamers are willing to spend more on phones every single year than on consoles every 7 years, sony and ms had no choice but to go for cheaper/weaker harware to fit into acceptable prie range. ~450-500. can't blame either of them , but gamers themselves.

 

[MightySquirrel]

Tbf Intel can not even beat AMD's Zen 2 in perf/price right now even if they tried.

 

[GoldenEye98]

I think it’s more likely that Nvidia wasn’t interested in bidding for a low-margin, low-volume custom design. Their consumer and pro/data center GPUs are selling for ridiculous prices. Why would they dedicate any resources to pursue some console chip that might make them like $20 per chip?

Low-margin yes, but not really low-volume if you get both consoles like AMD is.

 

[SonGoku]

here are ARM mobile CPU designs that kick the crap out of the Jaguar netbook CPU used by PS4 and X1

Cool but we are talking next gen machines not PS4/X revisions, also nvdia doesn't even make the best ARM cores.

There’s no technical reason why they couldn’t use a custom SoC with ARM CPU and a Turing GPU.

Zen is better suited for consoles TDP

I think it’s more likely that Nvidia wasn’t interested in bidding for a low-margin.

That's true, Nvidia isn't willing to offer good deals, if they provided console gpus they would use their old tech
Just like they did with switch and PS3 before it.

 

[JohnnyFootball]

Low-margin yes, but not really low-volume if you get both consoles like AMD is.

Yeah, a 100M consoles being sold even with slim margins is still a nice profit.

 

[Chozofication_]

They win based purely on affordability, not on technology.

Its based on cpu performance and compatibility, gpu compatibility AND price.

 

[ethomaz]

Well Switch uses Tegra

That is mobile APU... there are a lot of options in this case... see all the high-end phone on the market.

Neither Intel or nVidia has a option of x86 APU for consoles yet.

Unless you go on the expensive dedicated CPU + GPU routed you will be tied to AMD's APUs.

PS. I read your other comment... Zen already shits on any ARM... it is not even comparable... ARM is a no go in terms of performance in a console hardware.

 

[mckmas8808]

Yet nvidia tech does appear in Switch. Let's not pretend that nvidia wouldn't have gotten a nice chunk of change for being in PS4 or X1

Exactly! Nvidia has been losing out on not being in consoles. It's not like they wouldn't have wanted to be in the PS4, PS5, Xbox One, or Xbox Next.

 

[Dee Dah Dave]

Its based on cpu performance and compatibility, gpu compatibility AND price.

If the console manufacturers could get intel and nvidia parts for a similar price then they would be in the mix for consideration. That hasn't been the case for many years so AMD is the only obvious choice. Of course there are multiple things to consider but price is the main one.

 

[General Lee]

AMD being in the consoles was given, and calling it beating Nvidia/Intel is silly as they weren't really in actual contention to begin with. The ideas of using Intel CPU + Nvidia GPU or Tegra+GTX are absolutely fanboy fantasies that don't hold any real scrutiny when we're talking about a device that's supposed to hit sub $500 price and still offer a generational leap in performance over previous consoles.

What's interesting to see is if AMD will be able to better utilize their win in consoles to their PC market, as that's sorely in need of improvement in comparison to Nvidia. People speculated this might be the case back when PS4 and Xbox One came out and used GCN, but obviously it didn't really manifest in AMD benefiting much from any optimization work done on consoles. The games still heavily favored Nvidia's architecture on PC, for a variety of reasons.


One thing that I hear often stated is the concept of Nvidia's GPUs TFLOPs not being the same as AMD's, and that a lower TFLOP Nvidia GPU would do better also on console. This is a bit of a misunderstanding of how console and PC optimization differs in practice. TFLOPs are calculated exactly the same, but the issue on PC is utilizing that theoretical compute power fully. Effectively that results in Nvidia's GPUs currently giving more FPS/TFLOP in most games. But this is clearly not the case in stuff like mining, so it's a misnomer to say Nvidia TFLOPS are more efficient, just on average in most games on most PC configurations.

The difference with PC and consoles is that most PC builds are optimized to what most PC gamers use, i.e Nvidia GPUs. On console developers have even more control to maximize the workload exactly to the specifications of the GPU, so that FPS/TFLOP number can be much better than on PC. Of course there are limitations to this that come from some inevitable design decisions when making a game that creates a certain workload that the GPU needs to process, but there's a lot of things devs can do to better utilize that specific architecture to the fullest, something that either can't be done on PC with countless configurations, or isn't done because of cost issues and the reality that most people aren't gaming on Radeon there.

In reality, Nvidia's GPUs would likely not have a similar FPS/TFLOP advantage on console as they do on PC exactly because the inefficiencies do not exist to the same the degree as on PC. Nvidia as a market leader on PC simply has both the market share advantage and the money advantage to ensure that the workloads skew towards being more efficient on their architecture, despite console games being primarily designed for GCN. That's not to say Nvidia doesn't have a pure architectural advantage in efficiency, just that it really wouldn't be seen to the same extent in actual FPS numbers as we see now on PC.

Also the perceived power efficiency on AMD's desktop GPUs is highly compromised by the fact that they are clocking their chips beyond their optimal efficiency range to reach a certain performance level that's competitive against certain Nvidia products. They are sacrificing power efficiency for raw performance. Console APUs on the other hand will always be set to operate in their optimal voltage/frequency range as power consumption is more important. In that range whatever perceived efficiency advantage GTX cards seem to have on PC starts to quickly evaporate. This is particularly true in this mainstream segment that the consoles target. The fact that Nvidia has the biggest baddest and meanest $1000 GPUs on PC has very little significance to how system architects like Cerny decide on what sort of a chip they will go with. The perceived superiority of Nvidia's graphics on PC is vastly overrated in this scenario by people who don't really understand the underlying realities of the difference between designing for a single console spec vs. PC market dominated by Nvidia.

That's just from a technical perspective and doesn't even touch the financial aspects. No one is denying that Nvidia could offer a faster GPU or even a more efficient one in a vacuum, but that would come at a significantly weaker value than an AMD built APU. I think there's not really a scenario in console history where there's been a better chip design available specifically for gaming console purposes if you consider design cost and performance factors. Technically you could consider Switch being even better for Nintendo, but they've pretty much just built the system around Tegra's limitations and Nvidia didn't make a single change to it as far as I'm aware. AMD on the other hand allows Sony and MS a lot of customization options that are quite valuable in differentiating their systems.

Sorry for the wall of text. I get too excited sometimes...

 

[V1LÆM]

i think ray-tracing will run much better on ps5 then everyone excpects.

not unless it has dedicated hardware (like RTX) and is insanely expensive.

i think any raytracing we see will be very minimal. it's simply too demanding even for PCs with a 1080 Ti/2080/2080 Ti and the games that have it there isn't a huge difference. The GPU in the PS5 will only have similar performance to a 1070/1080.

that said, raytracing is the future and the more support it gets the better for everyone.

 

[Darius87]

not unless it has dedicated hardware (like RTX) and is insanely expensive.

not necessarily it could be via async compute. + optimization.

i think any raytracing we see will be very minimal. it's simply too demanding even for PCs with a 1080 Ti/2080/2080 Ti and the games that have it there isn't a huge difference.

with ps5 ray-tracing support it be get mainstream support from devs, so it will advance in performance, via optimization for example: there's lot of objects that doesn't need to be ray-traced in scene.

The GPU in the PS5 will only have similar performance to a 1070/1080..

You can't compare it like that, i think ps5 will be better then 1070/1080 , 1080 is just 8.8Tflops PS5 should be at least 10Tflops and it would perform better then 1080 on pc.

 

[DeepEnigma]

What a weird article.

 

[Chozofication_]

If the console manufacturers could get intel and nvidia parts for a similar price then they would be in the mix for consideration. That hasn't been the case for many years so AMD is the only obvious choice. Of course there are multiple things to consider but price is the main one.

Price and compatibility. And AMD cpus are also just flat out more efficient atm.

So no, I don't think price is the main factor as compatibility is a huge thing moving forward.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Yet nvidia tech does appear in Switch. Let's not pretend that nvidia wouldn't have gotten a nice chunk of change for being in PS4 or X1

They sold old tech for the Switch, so the margins were much higher than they would’ve gotten on the other consoles. There’s that whole APU thing as well.

This article feels like it’s just written for the sake of an article.

 

[Shin]

You can't compare it like that

RT was most likely in the pipeline for AMD is will be present both consoles since it's not a optimization, notice how they tend to have basically the same features as nVidia throughout history - albeit later.
A lot has changed on PC since Carmack said that, incl. Vulkan/DX12 and whatever else.
Generally speaking the whole overhead situation on PC so it's a bad example to use, even though you can still get more out of a console vs a PC using the same part.
You're also comparing nVidia efficiency vs AMD which can't be compared due to how much CUDA has been favored for the last decade or so.
E.g. 10TF AMD might as well be 6TF nVidia, this is why it's a bad example, compare apple vs apples and not apple versus oranges.....the whole post is kinda wrong honestly as you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[Darius87]

RT was most likely in the pipeline for AMD is will be present both consoles since it's not a optimization

so you're saying ray-tracing can't be optimized?

Generally speaking the whole overhead situation on PC so it's a bad example to use, even though you can still get more out of a console vs a PC using the same part.

so you admit that it's advantage for consoles, and then say that it's bad example , any advantage is good example.

You're also comparing nVidia efficiency vs AMD which can't be compared due to how much CUDA has been favored for the last decade or so.

it's new architecture in navi, with all optimization due to one system configuration SoC it will destroy any equalent spec cuda or not architecture in pc.

E.g. 10TF AMD might as well be 6TF nVidia

Tflops is always the same it's a measurment, you might learn it one day.

this is why it's a bad example, compare apple vs apples and not apple versus oranges....

that's what i was saying in post you replied to me, just difference consoles vs pc.

.the whole post is kinda wrong honestly as you don't know what you're talking about.

comes from who post fake statements.

 

[metareferential]

AMD wins only because: 1) no one else is competing for those deals and 2) their margins are so narrow nvidia is laughing all the way to the bank.

 

[Shin]

fake

I'd try to make sense but have already seen it's useless, but thanks for re-affirming any suspicion I had earlier.
If you want to know why DF smiled in the PS5 video read up on their coverage about XO, the one Microsoft invited them.

 

[Darius87]

I'd try to make sense but have already seen it's useless, but thanks for re-affirming any suspicion I had earlier.
If you want to know why DF smiled in the PS5 video read up on their coverage about XO, the one Microsoft invited them.

does it matter? even if DF knows something about new xbox, ps5 spec is still unknown so they can't possible know which one is better so please stop your nonsense. mr.fake statements.

 

[Kenpachii]

PS4 worked well for AMD and Sony why change? Honestly no reason. Sony can probably demand and do whatever they want. With Nvidia and Intel they probably don't even come close towards this type of solution.

For consoles in general i honestly think microsoft will opt for nvidia this generation. They probably go all out. I could see this happen. But then again xbox one was a massive slackers project. So i could see them opt for a AMD gpu again or APU and settle for a samey GPU that PS5 gets.

 

[Shin]

does it matter? even if DF knows something about new xbox, ps5 spec is still unknown so they can't possible know which one is better so please stop your nonsense. mr.fake statements.

Apparently it does seeing your reaction this morning as well as earlier in this thread

 

[manfestival]

Nvidia validated by all of this ray tracing WOOOOO

but on a serious note... This all really means nothing aside from AMD getting to survive a bit longer. I watched that video that was posted the other day that showed Steam trends on GPUs.... Nvidia practically owns the PC gaming market.

 

[lukilladog]

They win based purely on affordability, not on technology.

Nvidia nor intel can´t put together APU´s like these, unless they work together, so technology is a critical aspect. But there have been articles right from the start about how apu´s could give nvidia and intel lots of headaches, they were right, shouldn´t surprise anybody.

 

[Kenpachii]

Nvidia nor intel can´t put together APU´s like these, unless they work together, so technology is a critical aspect. But there have been articles right from the start about how apu´s could give nvidia and intel lots of headaches, they were right, shouldn´t surprise anybody.

Intel could take there pie after the PS5 tho.

Intel hired AMD’s graphics guru, Raja Koduri in 2017. And he has said Intel is working on a better standalone graphics chip. But evidently, that was too late to be considered for this product, Krewell said.

“If it were a year or so later, that might be a different story,” Krewell said.

 

[lukilladog]

Intel could take there pie after the PS5 tho.

I doubt it, too much stuff needs to happen like, intel starts to like small margins, first gen products turn out to be great, and sony and ms give up on retro compatibility.

 

[michaelius]

AMD is the only company that can provide good enough x86 cpus with acceptable but somewhat inferior gpu technology at bargain bin prices.

Noone sane would put future of the console division on completely unproved Intel technology which won't be even shown before 2020 while AMD has working 7nm parts already.

 

[Shin]

Even if either nVidia or Intel try to gain market-share AMD will still get a cut through royalties.

 

[Tygeezy]

This is still a big jumping of point from last generation. Jaguar processors at no point were considered a good processor and were doa with last gen consoles as a serious bottleneck. Zen 2 should actually be very good even when it debuts on consoles a year after it's pc introduction this summer.