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[Kleegamefan]

Amir M, a longtime poster @ avsforum and who is involved in the VC-1 project @ microsoft"


http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?threadid=411600&perpage=20&pagenumber=190

Amir, will Microsoft's successor to the Xbox support full High-Definition gaming? 1920x1080p?

I can't really answer questions about future xbox products. I am sorry.

If you are asking if future xbox platforms can play 1080 VC-1 content, the answer is yes.

Amir

 

[Kleegamefan]

I won't say anything about future Xbox. But this is not much of an issue on the current Xbox which has a built-in Dolby AC-3 encoder. The encoder takes all multichannel sound (whether from a codec or generated dynamically by a game) and sends it out over S/PDIF in AC-3. Put another way, current Xbox has a solution to bridge the two worlds. So hypothetically, a WMA Pro soundtrack would dynamically get re-encoded to AC-3 for legacy recievers.

As to receivers generally not hadling our audio codec, this is true (at CES show though, Pioneer was showing $299 recievers with WMA Pro now). But the same is true of the new variations of audio codec in each format. So one way or the other, the folks on this thread at least, would need to be upgrading their audio gear. Lest you want analog output from your deck.

On others having claims on VC-1 spec, recall that twice as many companies have the same on AVC but that is a drop in the bucket considering that some 200 companies contributed to that spec. How and when they come out of woodwork is anyone's guess. From our point of view, we welcome the other companies to the pool as that would give them more of a sense of ownership in VC-1, helping with its adoption. And their supports provides even more credibility to the standard.

Amir

Interesting stuff concerning Xbox and XENON

 

[jedimike]

OK, I'll be the ignorant one... what is VC-1?

 

[op_ivy]

yeah, but, whats that mean?

 

[cybamerc]

WMV9

 

[shpankey]

ditto? what is this?

 

[Redbeard]

At first glance I thought this was some fancy way of saying Xbox 2 will play Xbox games.

 

[sonycowboy]

OK, I'll be the ignorant one... what is VC-1?

The approved High Definition Codec developed by (among others) Microsoft. It's the basis for WM9's HD implementation.

A few interesting things:

1) There's a bit of a scandal regarding VC-1 not being nearly what was promised in terms of performance. I made some post some time ago about this.

2) The licensing of this Codec is not solely to Microsoft. In fact, the codec looks to be coopted by a ton of folks, including Sony and is expected to be very inexpensive when all is said & done.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/01/24/ms_codec_patents/

 

[Funky Papa]

It means pretty bonkers AV capabilities.

It is not surprising, next gen consoles will have enough power to mess with VC-1 but it is still nice to know that at least one of them will support it.

 

[cybamerc]

Funky Papa:

> It means pretty bonkers AV capabilities.

Not really. It just means that M$ supports its own stuff.

> It is not surprising, next gen consoles will have enough power to mess with VC-1 but it
> is still nice to know that at least one of them will support it.

Don't get too excited. VC-1 might not make it into the final BRD or HD-DVD specs and even if it does Xbox 2 will likely be DVD only. So basically you will be able to play a few WMV9 encoded DVDs and stuff you've downloaded on your computer.

 

[golem]

hmm he really danced around the question whether the xenon will be able to encode dolby digital streams like the first xbox did.. i hope so, but i guess i could go find a wma pro receiver if need be..

 

[Enigma]

So what is AVC H.264? And why did Steve Jobbs make it a point of saying it's constant for both HD-DVD and BR-DVD? Seems like Apple's still trying to supply the codec. Or is this something completely seperate?

 

[Funky Papa]

Funky Papa:

> It means pretty bonkers AV capabilities.

Not really. It just means that M$ supports its own stuff.

-The Queen Mary 2 is the most luxurious, biggest boat ever.
-Not really. It just means that it floats.

GAF logic at work.

 

[cja]

So what is AVC H.264? And why did Steve Jobbs make it a point of saying it's constant for both HD-DVD and BR-DVD? Seems like Apple's still trying to supply the codec. Or is this something completely seperate?

AVC aka H.264 aka MPEG4 part 10 is an international standard codec just like MPEG-2 (that DVDs use) or MPEG4 part 2 (Divx and Xvid are tweaked versions of this codec). Jobs is right, it is a format supported by both Blu-ray and HD-DVD. It could and I hope will be supported by all console manufacturers next-gen, whether this support is via DVD, HD-DVD, Blu-ray, memory stick, compact flash, secure digital, etc.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H.264

 

[jedimike]

So even if MS decided to not use an HD-DVD optical drive, we could still watch HD material like the T2 DVD. I don't know, seems kind of stupid for this guy to mention this feature when there is only one DVD that I know that can be played. Logic dictates that MS will indeed be using a high-def optical drive to make better use of this. I guess it could also power FMV in cutscenes, but still it would be a waste.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Don't get too excited. VC-1 might not make it into the final BRD or HD-DVD specs and even if it does Xbox 2 will likely be DVD only. So basically you will be able to play a few WMV9 encoded DVDs and stuff you've downloaded on your computer.

cybermerc, VC-1 is part of both the HD-DVD and the BRD spec and when I was at Dolby Labs, my contact said that the current (as of December 2004) plan was for at least one of the XENON SKUs to have a HD-DVD ROM drive....

The $300-ish game-only XENON probably wont have HD-DVD but the other 2, most likely, will....

 

[open_mouth_]

XENON HAS VC-1 AND PS3 DOESN'T. IMAGINE THE POSSIBILITIES AND SUCK IT DOWN, BITCHES!

 

[neptunes]

The $300-ish game-only XENON probably wont have HD-DVD but the other 2, most likely, will....

wait...what?

They're actually releasing different model xenons?

 

[Kleegamefan]

Yes, but you didn't hear it from me

 

[Amir0x]

Yes, but you didn't hear it from me

*scribbles it down as heard from K. lee*

 

[Arcticfox]

XENON HAS VC-1 AND PS3 DOESN'T. IMAGINE THE POSSIBILITIES AND SUCK IT DOWN, BITCHES!

VC-1 support is mandatory for any Blu-ray player.

 

[pcostabel]

XENON HAS VC-1 AND PS3 DOESN'T. IMAGINE THE POSSIBILITIES AND SUCK IT DOWN, BITCHES!

Blu-Ray specs require VC-1, too.

 

[Kintaro]

The $300-ish game-only XENON probably wont have HD-DVD but the other 2, most likely, will....

All right! Good to know they're well on their way to segmenting the market already! ><

 

[open_mouth_]

wait...what?

They're actually releasing different model xenons?

Yes, but it shouldn't effect game development in the least. At minimum, every Xenon will have an ethernet port, HDDVD Drive and "power". The only variables are 1) Backwards compatibility 2) HD DVD Playback 3) Storage Size.

With the base unit, storage (flash-based, large sizes) will be assumed much like it is today with every single PS2 game with Memory Cards. The deluxe Xenon will likely have a built-in large storage drive, HD DVD Playback, and BC or other extras that don't really affect gameplay.

 

[cybamerc]

I don't know, seems kind of stupid for this guy to mention this feature when there is only one DVD that I know that can be played.

There's more than that:
http://www.wmvhd.com
http://www.microsoft.com/windows/windowsmedia/content_provider/film/PurchaseHDDVD.aspx

Granted, the selection is pretty slim right now (and will probably stay that way) but M$ is really pushing HD on regular DVDs and more and more DVD players support WMV9 HD content.

Also, don't underestimate M$' plans for Xbox-PC connectivity.

VC-1 is part of both the HD-DVD and the BRD spec

The specs haven't been finalized. I don't think either format will support two MPEG4 codecs.

 

[sonycowboy]

The specs haven't been finalized. I don't think either format will support two MPEG4 codecs.

The HDDVD forum has already required that VC-1, H.264, and MPEG2 must be supported.

 

[neptunes]

Yes, but it shouldn't effect game development in the least. At minimum, every Xenon will have an ethernet port, HDDVD Drive and "power". The only variables are 1) Backwards compatibility 2) HD DVD Playback 3) Storage Size.

Word on the street is that Xenon won't contain an HD-DVD drive, so... >.>

 

[open_mouth_]

Word on the street is that Xenon won't contain an HD-DVD drive, so... >.>

Earlier word had it containing HDDVD... but perhaps the base unit wil have it, but no movie playback and the "Pro" version will allow movie playback. We'll find out soon enough, I'm sure.

 

[sonycowboy]

Earlier word had it containing HDDVD... but perhaps the base unit wil have it, but no movie playback and the "Pro" version will allow movie playback. We'll find out soon enough, I'm sure.

Games will only be shipped on a format that ALL systems support, so even if only the low end Xenon has a DVD, then ALL games for Xenon will be on DVD.

That probably won't mean much as most games currently don't use all of their DVD space, but for some it could be restrictive. Of course, they could always just have a 2 DVD set

(or 8 DVD set to match a Dual sided Blu-Ray ROM )

 

[open_mouth_]

Games will only be shipped on a format that ALL systems support, so even if only the low end Xenon has a DVD, then ALL games for Xenon will be on DVD.

That probably won't mean much as most games currently don't use all of their DVD space, but for some it could be restrictive. Of course, they could always just have a 2 DVD set

(or 8 DVD set to match a Dual sided Blu-Ray ROM )

That's why it's more likely that even the base Xenon will have HD-DVD (or a proprietary drive with a larger size). Even if the "Pro" version of Xenon has full HD-DVD support, it'd still have to play the proprietary DVD Xenon game discs.

 

[Kleegamefan]

The way it was explained to me, Microsoft will be releasing more than 1 product containing the XENON chipset....

My contact @ Dolby Labs said that they will be licensing Dolby Digital Plus for "at least one of the XBOX2 products" when they release...furthermore, Dolby is a patent holder of the AVC codec I believe, so they would know a thing or two about upcoming HD-DVD products...

Keep in mind, this was according to the current plan at Microsoft, or, at least it is the plan they are revealing to Dolby.....I would imagine that an outfit as big and as well managed as Microsoft would have several different strategies concerning XENON and this is just one of them...

Besides, Microsoft has gone on record as saying in the future you will be able to use a XENON controller and plug it in a "Future PC" and play games....

Moreover, having, say a "good" $299 XENON game-only playing box, a "better" $499 XENON box/w HDD (for XBOX BW compatiblity) and HD-DVD ROM drive and a "best" $699 XENON Media Center PC may be the "plan" they are revealing right now...


or not...

 

[PhatSaqs]

Someone remember me what the point would be of releasing sepearate "versions" of Xenon again please?

 

[open_mouth_]

Klee, I think that's actually what they're going to do. On day 1, they'll have:

Xenon @ $299.
Includes Xenon chipset, ethernet port, 1 controller, no built-in storage (*maybe* a small built-in flash drive, maybe), hdtv support, HD-DVD drive, no movie playback support (requires add on), and two flash memory card slots. Flash cards will be sold by megs and go for $40 to $50 a pop.

Xenon HD @ $399
Everything Xenon has, but also supports HD-DVD playback, a built-in storage (40 gigs) drive, and full Xbox backwards compatibility. Even more multimedia, internet friendly.

All games work on either system. For games that have downloadable content, you'll have to get a flash memory card to store the data if you have a base Xenon.

Maybe in a year or two, they'll consider licensing the Xenon tech out for PC's to include those features.

Someone remember me what the point would be of releasing sepearate "versions" of Xenon again please?

Why make every user pay for features that only some users will want, especially if you can keep the base Xenon features on both versions, it won't matter. The big winner could be microsoft in terms of cost savings and the end user in terms of getting a super system for $299.

 

[kaching]

By Toshiba's own reckoning, they'll have standalone HD-DVD players on the market in 3rd/4th quarter 2005, for just under $1000. If Xbox2 is truly a product releasing in the same time period, there's no way they'll be selling an HD-DVD enabled version for less than half the price of other HD-DVD players.

 

[jedimike]

By Toshiba's own reckoning, they'll have standalone HD-DVD players on the market in 3rd/4th quarter 2005, for just under $1000. If Xbox2 is truly a product releasing in the same time period, there's no way they'll be selling an HD-DVD enabled version for less than half the price of other HD-DVD players.

Why not? Sony did it with the PS2. Plus, the cost to manufacture a HD-DVD drive is supposed to be about the same cost as manufacturing a DVD drive. The benefit was that plants would have very few upgrades to make and no retooling. I would also imagine that HD-DVD supporters would like to use Xenon as a trojan horse.

 

[cja]

By Toshiba's own reckoning, they'll have standalone HD-DVD players on the market in 3rd/4th quarter 2005, for just under $1000. If Xbox2 is truly a product releasing in the same time period, there's no way they'll be selling an HD-DVD enabled version for less than half the price of other HD-DVD players.

Toshiba are talking about HD-DVD with write/record ability, not a read only device. Also if Klee is correct the base model wouldn't even have HD-DVD movie playback and the license fees associated with that. It is far less fanciful than the idea Sony will have Blu-ray movie playback as standard with PS3 just three months later at the intended Japanese launch.

 

[sonycowboy]

Why not? Sony did it with the PS2. Plus, the cost to manufacture a HD-DVD drive is supposed to be about the same cost as manufacturing a DVD drive. The benefit was that plants would have very few upgrades to make and no retooling. I would also imagine that HD-DVD supporters would like to use Xenon as a trojan horse.

The drives do not cost the same. Particularly, the laser(s) to read the discs is/(are) going to be significantly more expensive as well as the controller chips.

The media will essentially be the same, but that doesn't mean the drives are.

 

[kaching]

Toshiba are talking about HD-DVD with write/record ability, not a read only device.

Yes, but there seems to be some confusion about that, as Toshiba seems to be saying the same thing for both recorders and players...

http://www.ga-forum.com/showpost.php?p=841639&postcount=14

also, this article:

http://www.pcworld.com/news/article/0,aid,119204,00.asp

Also if Klee is correct the base model wouldn't even have HD-DVD movie playback and the license fees associated with that.

Response primarily directed at _open_mouth's pricing estimation for model w/HDDVD.

It is far less fanciful than the idea Sony will have Blu-ray movie playback as standard with PS3 just three months later at the intended Japanese launch.

"far less fanciful"? Eh, okay.

Sony did it with the PS2.

What, undercut cheapest existing DVD model by half? I know that DVD players were still expensive in Japan at the time, but I didn't think PS2 was *that* good of a deal.

 

[jedimike]

I don't know if PS2 was exactly half the cost, but it was certainly the cheapest DVD player on the market... and hey, it also played games.

 

[koam]

Does this mean it supports 1080i?

 

[kaching]

Yes, cheapest, mike. But I don't think it was cheapest by equivalent of $300-500 USD...

 

[jedimike]

My version of open-mouth's scenario

Xenon @ $299.
Includes Xenon chipset, ethernet port, 1 controller, no built-in storage (*maybe* a small built-in flash drive, maybe), hdtv support, HD-DVD drive, no movie playback support (requires add on), and two flash memory card slots, and ethernet port. Flash cards will be sold by megs and go for $40 to $50 a pop.

Xenon HD @ $399
Everything Xenon has, but also supports HD-DVD playback, standard remote control, a built-in storage (40 gigs) drive, and full Xbox backwards compatibility, and built-in wireless. Even more multimedia, internet friendly.

Xenon Complete $599

Everything above, with HD-DVD recorder, Xbox Media Center, Massive storage (250 GB), TiVotoGo plug-in, and universal remote.

 

[open_mouth_]

Jedi, if those two were what was available on day one, I'd probably opt for the Xenon HD *if* I decided to buy a Xenon at launch. Those extras are just too good to pass up and well worth the $$$, imo.

 

[golem]

Does this mean it supports 1080i?

from what the rumors say, xbox2's native rez will be 720p but will support 1080i through scaling

 

[Phoenix]

Does this mean it supports 1080i?

With the PS2 doing it this gen, the probability is high that the next generation platforms will support it.

 

[Ghost]

My version of open-mouth's scenario

Xenon @ $299.
Includes Xenon chipset, ethernet port, 1 controller, no built-in storage (*maybe* a small built-in flash drive, maybe), hdtv support, HD-DVD drive, no movie playback support (requires add on), and two flash memory card slots, and ethernet port. Flash cards will be sold by megs and go for $40 to $50 a pop.

Xenon HD @ $399
Everything Xenon has, but also supports HD-DVD playback, standard remote control, a built-in storage (40 gigs) drive, and full Xbox backwards compatibility, and built-in wireless. Even more multimedia, internet friendly.

Xenon Complete $599

Everything above, with HD-DVD recorder, Xbox Media Center, Massive storage (250 GB), TiVotoGo plug-in, and universal remote.

This is what i see happening (though it'll be IPTV i reckon not tivo), no way it'll all be day one though, MS will stagger it and use the price reductions to go on the offensive when PS3 comes out, (So 'Xenon HD' comes out same time as PS3 at the same price, while the basic Xenon is $50 cheaper). Then another year or so before the Complete, probably launching at $399

This'll be the only way they can do things if they want to include HD-dvd because as has been said, it wont be cheap enough to launch in anything like a marketable price at Xenon launch. Then theres the manufacturing implications to consider aswell (it's hard enough keeping one console on the shelves these days, three from launch would be impossible).

 

[Bebpo]

Wouldn't having a hard drive in one system but not the other make it worthless for games? I mean you can't really have FFXI style games that require the hard drive or you're just telling everyone who bought the standard Xenon "hey go buy another system!".

I mean for save files it's nice since you don't need memory cards, but it seems like a big waste of potential having a hard drive that developers can't take advantage of in their games.

 

[Legal Step]

amir torrentz plz

 

[PG2G]

Let's think about this guys. Why would they include a HD-DVD drive and NO playback support? The entire reason that a HD-DVD drive wouldn't be in the base unit is because of the price of the drive itself.

 

[Kleegamefan]

Yeah, my personal opinion is that all XENON games will be DVD-based....

I think the Mid and High priced XENON SKUs are Microsofts best strategy against a BRD-ROM equipped PlayStation 3...

It would be wonderful if all XENON games could use HD-DVD, but, I think Microsoft painted themselves into a corner, so to speak, when they committed to a 2005 launch of XENON.......I would think that including HD-DVD ROM playback on all XENON devices will prove to be cost prohibitive in the end (still crossing my fingers, though)...

Sony, unlike Microsoft, doesn't have to license the BRD format for PS3 *AND* they are launching 6-12 month later....they have the luxury/opportunity to include a fancy blue laser format in their console (if you ask me, its not really a luxury at all as PS3 will need all the speedy data rate it can get to feed CELL)

Its not a bad strategy, really.....there is not much more Microsoft can be expected to do within the 2005 timeframe, if you think about it....commiting to launch one year before your competitors has its risks....risks that include less advanced CPU/GPU technology and overall features....

No much they can do about the former without delaying the box and giving up their "first to market" advantage that Microsoft are convinced was the reason Sony won this round (would this be a good place to insert my rolleyes now?) but they *can* release several different XENON SKUs to try to, shall we say, "neutralize" the PlayStation 3 BRD-ROM marketing/technical advantage?

I think they may go so far as to stagger the releases of the 3 XENON SKUs....doing so would allow them to strategically release/not release hardware in direct response to Sony and possibly even Nintendo, should their Redmond neibors release hardware that spark enough intrest in gamers and publishers....Nintendo are the wildcard next generation and I don't think Microsoft wants to be caught with their pants down...




Commenting on the original amir m post, I think its safe to say he is talking about HD-DVD playback and not just red laser movies on DVDs...

If you look at the current red laser DVD WMV9 software, they are made up of a bunch of specialty video, HD demos and Terminator 2....thats it....

All the hollywood studios are only intrested in releasing VC-1 software for either HD-DVD or Blu-ray (or both?) so don't expect to see Spiderman 2 or Matrix Trilogy on WMV9 red laser DVD anytime soon (if ever)

Keep in mind, all this is IMO...