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[boiled goose]

I just feel like dismissing fundamentalism as not being representative of actual Islam is ridiculous. Technically they are following the religion closer than most people.

Saying there is no problem with Islam, there is just a problem with fundamentalist Islam is absurd. It doesn't make sense to me.

The first step to any progress is accepting there ARE problems with the islamic religion and working towards change for the better.

The same way many other religions have done throughout history.

Are the Westboro Baptist church more Christian? Where inquisitors burning heretics more Christian? If you dont believe the earth is 6000 years old are you not Christian enough?

I cautiously agree with you that liberal interpretations have less legs to stand on than fundamentalists, which is why I would recommend ditching the books all together.

That said if you apply it to one religion, you have to reply to all them

 

[MisterFalcon]

Are the Westboro Baptist church more Christian? Where inquisitors burning heretics more Christian? If you dont believe the earth is 6000 years old are you not Christian enough?

And once again the very real Islamist violence that kills thousands every month is put against a family of trolls and events centuries ago and people pretend they must be treated equally.

house-not-on-fire-being-sprayed-with-water.jpg

 

[dan2026]

Are the Westboro Baptist church more Christian? Where inquisitors burning heretics more Christian? If you dont believe the earth is 6000 years old are you not Christian enough?

I cautiously agree with you that liberal interpretations have less legs to stand on than fundamentalists, which is why I would recommend ditching the books all together.

That said if you apply it to one religion, you have to reply to all them

I think the whole situation is extremely difficult and I don't know what the answer is.
I do think treating religion with kid gloves is a bad idea. But I also think the Fox News hate, hate, hate speech is an even worse approach.

 

[boiled goose]

And once again the very real Islamist violence that kills thousands every month is put against a family of trolls and events centuries ago and people pretend they must be treated equally.

house-not-on-fire-being-sprayed-with-water.jpg

Westboro baptist church still alive and kicking.
Should we condemn islamic fundamentalists.
Yes. Yes. Yes.

Should we condemn all muslims by association and Islam in general? No (unless we then do it to all non violent religious people in a fair way). That is all I am saying.
We agree right?

I think the whole situation is extremely difficult and I don't know what the answer is.
I do think treating religion with kid gloves is a bad idea. But I also think the Fox News hate, hate, hate speech is an even worse approach.

I agree with you.
I don't think religion should be treated with kid's gloves AND I think hate speech is bad.

The more accurately we diagnose the problem, the more accurately we can treat it and prevent horrible tragedies like the one that happened in the OP. Miss accurately diagnose the problem or cast too wide a treatment and we will cause collateral damage that could be counterproductive.

 

[popeutlal]

I'm so glad we don't actually pay any attention to what's in religious texts in the west, otherwise we do this to people like Kim Davis https://www.yahoo.com/news/graphic-video-shows-afghan-woman-stoned-death-eloping-071332458.html.

 

[The Albatross]

Feel like the title is poorly written. Blogger was a secular blogger, but not anti-religion and not an atheist (according to the article). He was against fundamentalism, but not against religion.

 

[boiled goose]

Feel like the title is poorly written. Blogger was a secular blogger, but not anti-religion and not an atheist (according to the article). He was against fundamentalism, but not against religion.

We usually forget that the victims of islamic fundamentalists are usually... other muslims.

 

[corduroygt]

Christianity is not a uniform blob (and that is ultimately the point).. but

Ok let's agree for the sake of argument. So it's how the text is being interpreted that's the problem right?

Saying islam is the problem casts a too wide net devoid of interpretation. If you said fundamentalist islam is the problem, id agree with you to a large extent.

The common thread i see is fundamentalism. Not one particular label vs another.

That's like saying guns don't kill people, it's only mentally disturbed individuals that do the mass shootings.
Wake up, Quran is a dangerous book, perhaps even more dangerous than Mein Kampf.

The same does not apply to Christianity because the Bible is just a bunch of stories where the Quran is the word of god and you will burn an eternity in hell if you don't follow it.
The reason we don't see all Muslims start behaving per the Quran and try to kill us all is that most don't read it. They learn the religion from their parents and Quran is more of a symbol, an artifact. Not for reading but for show.

There is a reason why Islam has BY FAR the biggest problem with extremism, just like how the US has an extreme gun problem compared to other developed countries. It's the contents of the Quran. They are problematic and they can't be patched. This is a huge issue and will remain so.

 

[dabig2]

Christianity has thankfully had 300 more years to mature and evolve along with the societies it inhabited. We'll see if Middle Eastern Islam eventually gets there. One thing that could make it go quicker would be to rid the religion and the world of Saudi Wahhabism.

 

[M1ch04c4n0]

That's like saying guns don't kill people, it's only mentally disturbed individuals that do the mass shootings.
Wake up, Quran is a dangerous book, perhaps even more dangerous than Mein Kampf.

The same does not apply to Christianity because the Bible is just a bunch of stories where the Quran is the word of god and you will burn an eternity in hell if you don't follow it.
The reason we don't see all Muslims start behaving per the Quran and try to kill us all is that most don't read it. They learn the religion from their parents and Quran is more of a symbol, an artifact. Not for reading but for show.

There is a reason why Islam has BY FAR the biggest problem with extremism, just like how the US has an extreme gun problem compared to other developed countries. It's the contents of the Quran. They are problematic and they can't be patched. This is a huge issue and will remain so.

When I was a kid, I was told the bible was the word of God. Eck, go to mass, the priests plainly says it during mass.

There are Christian places where yo can't be anything else, or else you get attack, shunned or even killed. Places in Mexico I know. Hell, even in my own home town, declare yourself atheist and there will be at least a couple of wakos who would threaten you. Want to start a yoga studio? Nope, that's diabolical? How about presenting a play where you make fun of religion? Ha! No in this life, fool! How about selling rock, metal and other heavy stuff? Good luck keep your business open.

And if you go to less populated places, where religion still rules, good luck coming out alive.

 

[corduroygt]

When I was a kid, I was told the bible was the word of God. Eck, go to mass, the priests plainly says it during mass.

The Quran has not been altered according to itself, with Bible there is no such "guarantee" and it's one of the "escapes" that compel its believers to not be violent.

There are Christian places where yo can't be anything else, or else you get attack, shunned or even killed. Places in Mexico I know. Hell, even in my own home town, declare yourself atheist and there will be at least a couple of wakos who would threaten you. Want to start a yoga studio? Nope, that's diabolical? How about presenting a play where you make fun of religion? Ha! No in this life, fool! How about selling rock, metal and other heavy stuff? Good luck keep your business open.
And if you go to less populated places, where religion still rules, good luck coming out alive.

There are places like that for every religion, even in India you can have rural villages that will shun and kill you for a peaceful religion like Hinduism. The problem is that those are poor impoverished regions.

With Islam, you can be killed in Paris, Sydney, in a train between Amsterdam and Paris, in a rich Muslim country such as Qatar, UAE or KSA. It is very much different. There are many Muslim terrorists that weren't even poor to begin with so attributing the issue to poverty does not really apply.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

Goddammit, it's just not stopping. :S

 

[Gorger]

This trend has been going on in Bangladesh for a long time now, and unfortunately it's just getting worse. Extreme fundamentalists thrives on stupidity and ignorance, so it's no wonder they go after advocats of common sense and rational thinking.

 

[Baki]

Eh, thread is full of usual suspects trying to stroke their anti Islam (maybe religion?) boner. It gets tiresome after a while to hear the same propaganda repeated in every single topic.

Anyways, back on topic, it's quite worrying that people were able to figure out who these anonymous bloggers were and how to find them? Especially since it seems like the attackers lack the intellectual capacity to find them. Who is tipping them off?

This trend has been going on in Bangladesh for a long time now, and unfortunately it's just getting worse. Extreme fundamentalists thrives on stupidity and ignorance, so it's no wonder they go after advocats of common sense and rational thinking.

Bangladesh suffers from extreme poverty with a huge divide between the poor and rich. A key reason for the divide is that there is extreme corruption, from the rich, who are secular, much like the government.
Therefore the narrative that the poor have, is that the rich and secular people are ruining the country and that secularism is why they are in this situation. That's why you are seeing this kind of violence.

 

[thuGG_pl]

It gets tiresome after a while to hear the same propaganda repeated in every single topic.

Islam produces most terrorists and extremists, that's not propaganda, that's a fact.

 

[Baki]

Islam produces most terrorists and extremists, that's not propaganda, that's a fact.

Please provide sources and benchmark data against socio-economic factors and proximity to conflict zones.


Thanks, if not, please stop spreading bullshit.

Edit: and a per capita figure as well.

 

[The Incarnation]

Islam produces most terrorists and extremists, that's not propaganda, that's a fact.

No shit. They make up a quarter of the planet.

Still hasn't come anywhere close to the destruction that the US and the UK has caused around the world.

 

[Gorger]

Bangladesh suffers from extreme poverty with a huge divide between the poor and rich. A key reason for the divide is that there is extreme corruption, from the rich, who are secular, much like the government.
Therefore the narrative that the poor have, is that the rich and secular people are ruining the country and that secularism is why they are in this situation. That's why you are seeing this kind of violence.

The Bangladesh government have often been criticized by humanist organizations like IHEU for their incompetence in protecting these secular bloggers and authors. The targets of these attacks are primarily atheists, which is a very small minority in Bangladesh. Officials are even going so far as blaming the bloggers and authors for putting their views out in writing.

Even one of the victims, Asif Mohiuddin, an atheist blogger who survived one of these Machete attacks were put on trial and incarcerated for "hurting religious feelings" with his blog.

Whatever actions the authorities are doing to uphold secularism in Bangladesh they are doing a piss poor job at it, and their apathetic disinterested concern for the bloggers by sweeping the issue under the rug is only further validating the actions of the extremists.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Almost nobody seems to want to modernise or reform Islam. Just give it a PR makeover. It's a hard long fight to make a religion less barbaric but backsliding is easy and simple. Jokes about fedoras and islamophobia grossly underestimate the seriousness of the issues. Just look at Russia and how Putin's mob are using orthodox Christianity. Nationalism, anti-feminism, violence against homosexuals, support for religious war.

 

[thuGG_pl]

Please provide sources and benchmark data against socio-economic factors and proximity to conflict zones.

Thanks, if not, please stop spreading bullshit.

Edit: and a per capita figure as well.

I should clarify that I meant religious terrorism.

http://www.theguardian.com/news/dat...m-main-cause-of-terrorism-according-to-report

And FFS, we have whole f***ing country (or country wannabe) made of Islamic terrorists.

 

[Wellscha]

Serious question, why does a lot of GAF posters would go ahead and condemn religion in general, yet have a soft spot for Islam? Never understood that at all.

For the record, I'm a former Muslim who was raised in a very religious Muslim family.

 

[corduroygt]

Serious question, why does a lot of GAF posters would go ahead and condemn religion in general, yet have a soft spot for Islam? Never understood that at all.

First world guilt of living in countries that historically waged war against muslim majority countries.

 

[Poltergust]

Serious question, why does a lot of GAF posters would go ahead and condemn religion in general, yet have a soft spot for Islam? Never understood that at all.

For the record, I'm a former Muslim who was raised in a very religious Muslim family.

Where are you getting this idea from? I've seen religions of all kinds get criticized on here, Islam included.

 

[Wellscha]

Where are you getting this idea from? I've seen religions of all kinds get criticized on here, Islam included.

You got this thread for example. Where the blame goes to outliers, geopolitics, socioeconomics, to other religions being brutal, illiteracy, and the list go on.

 

[Poltergust]

You got this thread for example. Where the blame goes to outlier, geopolitics, socioeconomics, illiteracy, and the list go on.

Um, you don't think those are more relevant issues to what's happening in the Middle East?

Islam extremists are a part of it, sure, but it should be noted that the Middle East was actually rather progressive until recently, and what you've listed are among the problems that cropped up when all the turmoil began.

Religion is never the sole reason for any kind of strife in today's world. If that were true, it would be impossible for nations to have people of different religions co-exist peacefully, yet there are plenty of nations that do.

I guarantee you that if the quality of life in the Middle East were to rise, that there would be less chaos over there.

 

[BocoDragon]

Serious question, why does a lot of GAF posters would go ahead and condemn religion in general, yet have a soft spot for Islam? Never understood that at all.

For the record, I'm a former Muslim who was raised in a very religious Muslim family.

Because Islam is the outgroup in Western society, and there are right wing elements which have attacked that outgroup in a crude fashion ("dern jihadi terrrrrrists!"), there is a liberal zeal to counteract that by downplaying how much the religion factors into things. Instead we tend to blame the issues of Islam on politics, economics, or our own selves (all the strife in Islamic society is due to US foreign policy, etc)

That said, plenty of people on GAF are critical of Islamic influence. Maybe even the majority here.

But you have identified a true weakspot in liberal politics. The "Ben Affleck zero braincell" approach to the topic. "Islam is all sunshine and puppies and every issue they have had nothing to do with doctrine... It's always an outside aggressor's fault."

 

[Henkka]

You got this thread for example. Where the blame goes to outliers, geopolitics, socioeconomics, to other religions being brutal, illiteracy, and the list go on.

I think for many people, pointing fingers at Islam itself comes a little too close to pointing fingers at all muslims in general. Muslims are also seen as a less privileged class in western societies, so criticism feels like punching down. Criticizing christians and christianity feels like punching up because it's the dominant religion.

I'm not saying this is right, just some reasons I think there's a disparity.

 

[corduroygt]

I guarantee you that if the quality of life in the Middle East were to rise, that there would be less chaos over there.

How much does the quality of life have to rise in Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, France and the USA for Islamic terror attacks to subside?

 

[Poltergust]

How much does the quality of life have to rise in Netherlands, Australia, Belgium, France and the USA for Islamic terror attacks to subside?

?

Those are not Middle Eastern countries. Why are you bringing up an irrelevant topic?

If you're trying to make a point that Islamic terror attacks happen in developed Western nations, then... duh? That's going to happen regardless. You're too much of an idealist if you sincerely believe that we can actually prevent all terrorist attacks.

However, the amount of these kinds of attacks is not even remotely comparable to those that happen in the Middle East.

 

[MisterFalcon]

?

Those are not Middle Eastern countries. Why are you bringing up an irrelevant topic?

Because thousands of young muslims have left these countries to fight for ISIS, an organization that shouts its intentions of genocide and mass murder from the rooftops.

 

[Poltergust]

Because thousands of young muslims have left these countries to fight for ISIS, an organization that shouts its intentions of genocide and mass murder from the rooftops.

True. Indoctrination is a scary thing. The fact that the Internet makes it easier to attract followers from around the world makes the whole situation worse.

 

[Wellscha]

Religion is never the sole reason for any kind of strife in today's world. If that were true, it would be impossible for nations to have people of different religions co-exist peacefully, yet there are plenty of nations that do.

If it wasn't for Evangelical Christians, The U.S. would be so much progressive right now. So yeah, religion is to blame here.

I guarantee you that if the quality of life in the Middle East were to rise, that there would be less chaos over there.

The GCC countries are considered the most prosperous countries of the world. Yet, terrorists keep coming in from there in droves despite a high HDI index

 

[Poltergust]

If it wasn't for Evangelical Christians, The U.S. would be so much progressive right now. So yeah, religion is to blame here.

Frankly, I think that religion is used as an excuse more than anything. People go "it's part of my beliefs, so don't judge me!" when trying to come up with an excuse for their bigotry, but I don't think that religion (at least by itself) is the actual cause of the bigotry. I believe that bigoted people would be bigoted whether they have a religion or not; it's just easier to hide behind a religion whenever you get challenged on your views.

The GCC countries are considered the most prosperous countries of the world. Yet, terrorists keep coming in from there in droves despite a high HDI index

Are there any statistics on this phenomenon? I'm legitimately curious to see how many people get recruited by terrorist organizations while living in a developed country.

 

[BocoDragon]

Frankly, I think that religion is used as an excuse more than anything. People go "it's part of my beliefs, so don't judge me!" when trying to come up with an excuse for their bigotry, but I don't think that religion (at least by itself) is the actual cause of the bigotry. I believe that bigoted people would be bigoted whether they have a religion or not; it's just easier to hide behind a religion whenever you get challenged on your views.

I think it's healthy to entertain possibilities like this, because it means you can think dynamically and won't be a person who says "Chistian = they'll think and act in this way for sure"

But at the same time, I hope you come to realize that religion is not some exceptional ideology. It's a typical ideology. It certainly informs belief! It's an imperfect system of thought that can inform imperfect decision making.

There is nothing special about Islam or Christianity, or any other religion, that makes it any different from adopting: liberalism, republicanism, pro-life, gamergate, communism, environmentalism, naziism, feminism, corporatism, etc etc. Another socially constructed system of thought that people submit to and have their decisions dictated by that logic.

Anyone who takes on a socially constructed dogma will have their thought transformed, they will make decisions based on it, and they will inevitably make mistakes from it. Many of the issues in Islam come directly out of their doctrine.

I feel someone who is Muslim is not much different from someone who is anarchist, collectivist, Buddhist (etc). I expect their values to factor into their life decisions, for better and for worse.

 

[DiscoJer]

If it wasn't for Evangelical Christians, The U.S. would be so much progressive right now. So yeah, religion is to blame here.

Maybe, maybe not. Religion, specifically Christianity, was the driving force behind the whole anti-slavery movement (and to a lesser extent, the civil rights movement of the 1960s, though in that case, it was more than just Christianity, it was Jews and Muslims and Christians working together).

On the flip side, secularism gave us mass starvation in most than one country (Russia and China most notably) and that wonderful psuedo-science known as eugenics.

Once you view humans as simply organic machines, with no souls or in some cases, even free will, it's very easy to justify very heinous things in the name of the greater good.

 

[IndoAssassin]

It's how it is now, but every religion has had their fair share of barbarism. The Crusades weren't that long ago historically speaking.

Crusades got nothing on what happened in India when the Mughals invaded and through torture tried to convert everyone to Islamic beliefs.

 

[Henkka]

Maybe, maybe not. Religion, specifically Christianity, was the driving force behind the whole anti-slavery movement (and to a lesser extent, the civil rights movement of the 1960s, though in that case, it was more than just Christianity, it was Jews and Muslims and Christians working together).

On the flip side, secularism gave us mass starvation in most than one country (Russia and China most notably) and that wonderful psuedo-science known as eugenics.

Once you view humans as simply organic machines, with no souls or in some cases, even free will, it's very easy to justify very heinous things in the name of the greater good.

That's silly. The slave owners weren't atheists, and used biblical arguments to justify the ownership of slaves. And with good reason, because the Old Testament clearly sanctions slavery. It even allows you to beat your slaves as long as they don't die immediately. In the New Testament, Jesus tells slaves to obey their masters. I don't know much about the american Civil war, but it's pretty obvious both sides were religious. They just had differing interpretations of the Bible. Or rather, they cherry picked the parts which confirmed what they already believed. The world would be a different place today if anywhere in the Bible it said: "Thou shalt not own other people as property, that is abomination". Clearly that part just slipped God's mind.

Also, if you're going to argue that secularism is what lead to the mass starvation and murder in the communist states, you're going to have to explain the current state of secular countries such as Sweden and Iceland.

The 'organic machines' argument is so flimsy as well. The catholic church has clearly believed in souls for it's entire existence. Didn't stop the with hunts. Or the inquisition. Or the conflicts between Sunni and Shia muslims. Or any single religious conflict ever. You might even say that "Once you view humans as simply vessels for immortal souls, who will be judged by God in the afterlife, it's very easy to justify very heinous things in the name of the greater good." Kill them all and let God sort them out, and so on.

 

[Poltergust]

I think it's healthy to entertain possibilities like this, because it means you can think dynamically and won't be a person who says "Chistian = they'll think and act in this way for sure"

But at the same time, I hope you come to realize that religion is not some exceptional ideology. It's a typical ideology. It certainly informs belief! It's an imperfect system of thought that can inform imperfect decision making.

There is nothing special about Islam or Christianity, or any other religion, that makes it any different from adopting: liberalism, republicanism, pro-life, gamergate, communism, environmentalism, naziism, feminism, corporatism, etc etc. Another socially constructed system of thought that people submit to and have their decisions dictated by that logic.

Anyone who takes on a socially constructed dogma will have their thought transformed, they will make decisions based on it, and they will inevitably make mistakes from it. Many of the issues in Islam come directly out of their doctrine.

I feel someone who is Muslim is not much different from someone who is anarchist, collectivist, Buddhist (etc). I expect their values to factor into their life decisions, for better and for worse.

You make some good points, and I can't really disagree. Ideology, secular or otherwise, is a powerful thing.

Once you view humans as simply organic machines, with no souls or in some cases, even free will, it's very easy to justify very heinous things in the name of the greater good.

I think it's extremely important going forward that global society as a whole should learn to empathize. As humans, we have the capacity to do terrible or great things, and that is completely dependent how much empathy we can give to others. I mean, you can basically chalk up every global tragedy, war, conflict, etc. in human history to having one group of people treating another group as being less than human.

That also goes for the conflicts the world is facing today. Shiites vs. Sunnis, Israelis vs. Palestinians, Russians vs. LGBT people, conservatives vs. immigrants. So many people can't accept others that are different from them, and it's such a shame.

 

[corduroygt]

?
Those are not Middle Eastern countries. Why are you bringing up an irrelevant topic?

I wanted to show that what drives Islamic terror attacks is not the conditions in impoverished poor nations, it's literally the ideals in Quran itself and the inability for the religion to move past them like Christianity did. No one commits mass murder because someone insulted Jesus or Christianity any more.

 

[boiled goose]

I wanted to show that what drives Islamic terror attacks is not the conditions in impoverished poor nations, it's literally the ideals in Quran itself and the inability for the religion to move past them like Christianity did. No one commits mass murder because someone insulted Jesus or Christianity any more.

This is just silly and yet so many ignorant people like you believe it.

How do you explain the existence of normal Muslims?regular people?

Have you actually talked to any? Do you know any?

The reason you excuse Christianity is because you know normal people. People who will say the bible is literary true, and will say you are going to hell, and say gays are the devil... and yet, they act mostly like normal nice people most of the time.

Guess what, that's most Muslims too. You are simply ignorant.

 

[Denton]

Maybe, maybe not. Religion, specifically Christianity, was the driving force behind the whole anti-slavery movement (and to a lesser extent, the civil rights movement of the 1960s, though in that case, it was more than just Christianity, it was Jews and Muslims and Christians working together).

On the flip side, secularism gave us mass starvation in most than one country (Russia and China most notably) and that wonderful psuedo-science known as eugenics.

Once you view humans as simply organic machines, with no souls or in some cases, even free will, it's very easy to justify very heinous things in the name of the greater good.

Hilarious. Secularism at fault for mass starvation in china and russia. Please tell me that was not meant seriously.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

Once you view humans as simply organic machines, with no souls or in some cases, even free will, it's very easy to justify very heinous things in the name of the greater good.

This is debatable. Free will is not even something that is required for all religions and different religions place varying importance on the subject. Essentially free will is a philosophical fudge that allows a universe where god is both "all powerful" but unable to control the actions of humans. In terms of ethics free will doesn't really provide any answers. Determining what is right or wrong is equally difficult with or without it.

It's mostly used in terms of punishment which is relevant since we are talking about people deciding what the punishment for secularism should be and who should decide when to administer it. Some say that something like the Spanish civil war where catholic priests were killed is an example of how religious people have the moral high ground. But in that case the catholic church was very involved in right wing politics in the country. If anything it's an example of how toxic things can become when religion and politics mix together as well as the brutality of civil war. Really how do you decide that an authoritarian right wing dictatorship is so much better than soviet influenced government in your country that you decide that it is the "greater good" that your religion stands for. Certainly religious people are not noticeably less influenced by dangerous ideology.

 

[Madness]

India liberates Bangladesh from the brink of ethnic and religious slaughter by the Pakistanis in 1971, only for Bangladesh to slowly end up worse.

This is something that is getting out of control. Even the moderate countries like Turkey and Indonesia are struggling with increasing extremism and radicalism. Moderates are losing the war in Islam, especially in Muslim majority countries. Being a religious minority in countries like France, UK, India, and others helps temper extremism, but majority Islamic countries are really struggling here. Unless there is a dictator, it's hard to establish a moderate state because the extremists make it extremely difficult. Don't know how things will change.

 

[params7]

Bangladesh has major issues to deal with.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Moderates are losing the war in Islam, especially in Muslim majority countries.

To be losing a war they should be fighting it which they are not. The moderates are only objecting to non-Muslims who are saying bad things about their religion. There is not a single radical hate preacher even remotely worried about being killed by a moderate Muslim for defaming their religion while apostates and critics of Islam all over the world must fear for their lives.

 

[boiled goose]

Hilarious. Secularism at fault for mass starvation in china and russia. Please tell me that was not meant seriously.

I agree the claim is way way too strong. Terribleness and greed were the driving force behind slavery.

However...

Religion was used to justify it. If the texts did not allow for it to be endorsed then maybe some people would have not been able to rationalize it. Maybe...

Both sides were using religious arguments for and against it.

To be losing a war they should be fighting it which they are not. The moderates are only objecting to non-Muslims who are saying bad things about their religion. There is not a single radical hate preacher even remotely worried about being killed by a moderate Muslim for defaming their religion while apostates and critics of Islam all over the world must fear for their lives.

No this is just a silly ignorant and completely misinformed claim spouted from an uninformed bubble of privilege.

Did you even read the op? Guess who died, someone fighting fundamentalism. Who are the people getting murdered and oppressed the most by isis and other extremists? Other Muslims

 

[GYODX]

Why does ISIS have so many foreign fighters from first-world countries? How do Muslims born, raised and educated in a safe first-world country become radicalized if you can no longer point to socioeconomic factors and conflict zones as the overriding causes?

Seems most liberals aren't willing to consider an answer that's not along the lines of "it's Western society's fault".

 

[kittoo]

Crusades got nothing on what happened in India when the Mughals invaded and through torture tried to convert everyone to Islamic beliefs.

Yupe. The Indian conquest of Muslims (and the ~600 years rule that followed) and the persecution of Hindus was one of the bloodiest ever. Between 11th and 15th century, Indian population actually decreased by 4 million! This is absolutely huge even by toda's standards, let alone at that time.

 

[Hyperactivity]

Serious question, why does a lot of GAF posters would go ahead and condemn religion in general, yet have a soft spot for Islam? Never understood that at all.

For the record, I'm a former Muslim who was raised in a very religious Muslim family.

You're absolutely crazy if you believe GAF has a soft spot for Islam

 

[boiled goose]

Why does ISIS have so many foreign fighters from first-world countries? How do Muslims born, raised and educated in a safe first-world country become radicalized if you can no longer point to socioeconomic factors and conflict zones as the overriding causes?

Seems most liberals aren't willing to consider an answer that's not along the lines of "it's Western society's fault".

Saying Western societies fault is of course reductionist. It's pretty complex geopolitics and social issues at play?

Would you consider it rational to go fight for isis even if you agree with them on some issues? I wouldn't.

Are there suicidal mass shooters with the same upbringing that you described that are not Muslim? Of course. They similarly though have some bizarre fundamentalist ideology.

Religion can become that. Nationalism can become that.

You guys are the ones imparting islam some kind of magical power to indoctrinate and make people act irrationally. All religions have nonsense irrational stupid shit in them. The question is whether you believe and act on it.

If you act on the literal teachings of most religions,it would be disastrous. The specifics matter but the main issue is belief and action or not.

It's not Christians believing the bible and being nice and Muslims believing the koran and being terrorists.

It's fundamenstalists using religion for bad and average people somehow rationalizing away the bad parts.

Is the current ideology used to indoctrinate Muslims worse than the current ideology used to indoctrinate Christians on average? Maybe

But then it comes back to the specific ideologies being taught and not a specific text or a religion as a whole which we know can have many flavors

Should these religions be reformed? absolutely I would personally reform of them out of existence if I could