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Another Muslim man killed by Hindu Mob over cow row
- Thread starter Maninthemirror
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Well, as I asked, in which ways do they parallel each other exactly?
I have the impression that you do not provide more parallels to connect these two trends other than saying "there exist news stories of anti-Muslim expressions". (I am using the ultra-generic term "expressions", because I am not aware of comparable acts of physical violence in Europe). Which is a trivial thing to say that has been true for Muslims (and Hindus/Christians/atheists/...) since their origin and has manifested independently countless times. But your statement implied a connection beyond the trivial.
I am asking because I am curious to learn arguments for a global trend of anti-Muslim bigotry that you seem to imply. I see European anti-Muslim bigotry and anti-Muslim bigotry in India to be completely different. In Europe, we have people (most of them flat out bigots) who fear that hordes of Muslims will turn European countries into Islamic theocracies. In this story here, religious lunatics killed a guy because they thought he had killed a sacred cow. There really isn't much similarity here...
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
let's not pretend that Congress and almost all other parties didn't gave many more benefits to Muslims and Christians, as compared to Hindus. there is a reason why bjp and modi became so popular, other than the fact that Congress is extremely corrupt and basketball ruined the economy. Congress has been a thoroughly pro-muslim party. rise of a pro-hindu party was bound to happen.
And Hindus have been under muslim and christian rule for almost 800 years total and it was not pretty for them. even now christian missionaries run rampage in some parts of India. a backlash is bound to happen. let's not pretend that this clap is from one hand. these are emotional issues with 800 years of pent-up frustration. it's not as crystal cut as 'oh my God evil Hindus and modi'. the gujrat riots that everyone likes to bring up. how about they also mention that they happened because Muslims burned alive 58 hindu pilgrims returning from holy city of ayodhya. their train bogie was locked from outside, petrol was poured on it and it was set on fire, all the while a Muslim mob, including women, pelted stones so that the Hindus couldn't come out either. the local leader, haji billal, stopped fire trucks from reaching the spot till it was all over. and you are telling me that this wouldn't evoke a response?
and guess what, Congress setup an enquiry committee which declared that the fire was spontaneous! despite their being loads and loads of evidence that it clearly wasn't! and now everyone acts surprised that Hindus now have a pro-hindu party?
oh and finally, communal violence has not risen in India after modi/bjp came to power. it has actually reduced. but of course Congress couldn't do anything wrong in eyes of the media and the world, because it was oh so secular but even more importantly, simply derailed India's rise and progress. as soon as their is an Indian nationalist in power, suddenly everyone has discovered intolerance and communal violence in India.
Spikematic
Member
Your hands should be cut off so you can't type such not-so-subtle digs.
Seriously, though, you're not as clever as you think.
And yes, this entire situation is fucked.
darkinstinct
...lacks reading comprehension.
Let's kill everyone that's religious, we are starting the extremist atheist movement to cleanse this world from all evil. /sarcasm
Can't we just all live our lifes in whatever way we want in our personal space and try to make it work in the public? Why are there always morons who think their's is the right way and the only way?
Can't we just all live our lifes in whatever way we want in our personal space and try to make it work in the public? Why are there always morons who think their's is the right way and the only way?
HiredN00bs
Member
I'll stop digging when Saudia Arabia stops cutting hands off, deal?
My point wasn't to mock the murder victim, but religious acts of barbarism.
What happened to this man is a great shame to us as a species.
India as a country is larger than several European countries combined, and has a population more than double all of Europe. Now do the comparison. You have the PM of Hungary officially stating they don't want to take any refugees that are Muslim, and hate crimes against Muslims number in the thousands every month in Europe and are on the rise. Let's keep some perspective here. Some guy in Sweden just hacked like 3 guys to death with a sword and wounded others in an anti-immigrant attack a little while back.
HiredN00bs
Member
The problem isn't religion as much as it is an abandonment of empathy and reason.
Messofanego
Banned
Just read up about the Gujarat massacre in 2002 and felt like throwing up.
"Mothers were skewered on swords as their children watched. Young women were stripped and raped in broad daylight, then doused with kerosene and set on fire. A pregnant woman's belly was slit open, her fetus raised skyward on the tip of a sword and then tossed onto one of the fires that blazed across the city."
www.nytimes.com/2002/07/27/world/religious-riots-loom-over-indian-politics.html?pagewanted=all
"Mothers were skewered on swords as their children watched. Young women were stripped and raped in broad daylight, then doused with kerosene and set on fire. A pregnant woman's belly was slit open, her fetus raised skyward on the tip of a sword and then tossed onto one of the fires that blazed across the city."
www.nytimes.com/2002/07/27/world/religious-riots-loom-over-indian-politics.html?pagewanted=all
Read up on the 1984 Sikh genocide next if you really want your stomach turning. Thousands of women raped, thousands of young men killed by police and military, many people set on fire and killed in North India etc.
EdwardTeach
Member
He doesn't . He appeals to many highly educated and informed ppl too . Say your options are vote for congress (keep a dynasty going with an entirely uncharismatic leader and lots of questions who's really in power and a declining economic growth) or vote for this proven person as far as business but turned a blind eye to communism . What I do I vote I vote the first as I don't want communist riot . Average Indian ? I'm short on money I want food this person works economically . Average Indian votes modi . Educated Indian . Who do I vote ? Either I'm promoting a dynasty which doesn't quite know how to govern or taking a chance on someone who I know makes an economic difference and has tried to distance himself from his communal past . I'm split . It's not that simple . Essentially what I've been trying to hammer home past 4 posts
Pretty sure you don't mean communist. I think you mean communalist as in "communal violence ".
EdwardTeach
Member
I what sense do Christian missionaries run rampage? They be having a wild time.
EdwardTeach
Member
No.
You won't find beef served in many restaurants though. Especially not in McDonald's.
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
People did die and a lot of shitty things happened, but this fetus thing isnt true, it was fabricated by a journalist and everyone else went along with it.
Amusing comment, really. But you know what I mean. Conversion.
EdwardTeach
Member
Yes I do know what you mean, but I don't know how someone else converting effects you, and why it should bother you.
Freedom of conscience.
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
not really freedom when done by money, fear and blatant trickery. check out videos on YouTube. missionaries claiming to heal diseases and having healing sessions where actors act out as if they have been cured. playing with poor people. and of course it affects me when suddenly a protest erupts about a Russian built nuclear power plant on the eve of its commissioning, with priests leading the masses. somehow they had no problem when it was being built. they only had problem when India refused US about reducing the liabilities on case of a disaster and hence no US company got to build any plant in India. it affects me when a insurgency engulfs a whole state of my nation with slogan 'nagalim for christ'. it affects me when I see missionaries after tsunami disaster, hurling abuses at hindu gods and asking people to convert since 'how would the gods save you when they couldn't save their own temple?'
Chairman Yang
if he talks about books, you better damn well listen
Anti-Muslim sentiment in Europe and India are very different, yes. You'd expect them to be, given the vast differences between the regions. But do these different manifestations of bigotry mean that there's no trend? If people in these countries feel they have license to attack Muslims in a way they didn't before, I think that's a non-trivial, important thing to point out, regardless of the regional differences between these attacks.
All that said, I do think there are some additional parallels:
1. Both the Indian government and some European governments (like Hungary's), even if they're not extreme themselves, feel the need to appease extremists within their ranks.
2. Instead of big atrocities (like the train burnings in India), common indicators of religious belief--like beef-eating in India or headscarf-wearing in Europe--seem to be prompting some of these attacks. This is a sign that, in both places, major attacks are no longer needed to fire up anti-Muslim sentiment.
3. Faster Muslim population growth is perceived as a threat in both India and Europe.
You can bring other countries into the mix--China, Russia, and the US, for example--and some of these parallels apply there, too. China's recently started trying to suppress Muslim birth rates in Xinjiang, for example. The global trend is disturbing, and worth pointing out, regardless of regional differences.
How do you feel about these so called 'gau-rakshaks'? And about states taking measures to ban beef consumption and slaughter? Doesn't that go against the secular nature of the Indian constitution?
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
why do you use 'so-called'? they are precisely that.
I don't like anyone taking law into their hands, so obviously I have no sympathy.
and as far as the ban is considered, its literally one of the directive principles of Indian Constitution, so I see nothing wrong with that. it's no different than any country banning pork. it's also a state subject in India, so I really don't understand why people bring modi into it. he is the pm, not cm of a state.
timetokill
Banned
I just thought of a story about an alien troll that abducts cows in India at night and watches the carnage from space the next day.
You know, it was really weird for me when Modi got elected. A lot of friends and family were singing his praises and basically brushed me off whenever I tried to bring up the riots in Gujarat. I hope the does better this time around.
edit: not that these incidents are on the level of the Gujarat riots.
edit: not that these incidents are on the level of the Gujarat riots.
Man that's hardcore. Good for them.
Never thought I'd ever refer to eating beef as hardcore. :/
because I think their underlying sincerity to animal welfare or seeing the cow as a 'mother' or whatever is dubious at best.
I don't want to talk about other countries banning certain food products, but India is a secular nation. Do Federal laws supersede state ones?
So the bans don't violate the constitution? I thought freedom of religion and secularism was enshrined in the Indian constitution?
corduroygt
Banned
I support this 100% just like I supported Charlie Hebdo's and others' drawings. Good for them, religion should be mocked and insulted at every opportunity
timetokill
Banned
Now THIS is my kind of protest! If only every protest could be so delicious.
bigmit3737
Member
Why did basketball ruin the economy ?
Also is that the reason why the gujurat riots started? I see no one refuting it so I'm assuming this is true.
Yes the reason is Hindu insecurity . I was born a Hindu in an "upper" caste in India from a decently well off family and I know I had it good . Didn't stop me from realizing the crap which goes on in our country . Yes some issues are complicated but the whole hindutva notion and aggression is anti Hindu and anti Indian principles . There is a reason Gandhi is the father of our nation .
And your argument boils down to you kill 2 I'll kill 100 because how dare you kill 2 so I'm entitled to feel emotional and kill 100
And giving benefits to minorities is written into our constitution for a reason it's so the Hindu majority can't run roughshod over everyone just because we are 80+ percentage of the country
Yup yup was typing on mobile while pregaming to go out lol
There's more backstory to it (involving holy sites and building temples, etc). But yeah tensions escalated to the point where a train car of Hindus was set on fire by Muslims, resulting in the riots where Hindu mobs took "revenge".
Most people (especially in the US) don't understand the history of the Indian subcontinent. There is a lot of resentment among Hindus over the fact that it a long time ago we had an extremely wealthy and powerful civilization, that eventually got conquered by Muslims afterwards, the British.
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
lol sorry I was on Mobile. meant basically ruined the economy.
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
and I am from the lowest of the castes, yet I can see and understand that true secularism is everyone being equal, not preferential treatment to anyone. and where is it written in our Constitution that preferential treatment should be given to minorities? yes it's written that rights should be protected, but not preferential treatment.
and Hindus running roughshod? on a general level, Hindus are far more assimilating than any abrahamic religion. and still Western nations have, more or less, true secularism. that is, everyone being given equal treatment. then why should India give its minorities special treatment?
and as another poster said, historical angle can't be ignored. Muslim and British rule was no picnic for Hindus, and Muslims also took away a chunk of the nation, claiming they couldn't live with Hindus (although they had no such problem when they were ruling).
if youre from the lowest caste and youre anti preferential treatment are you also against teh quota system then? minotiries need to be protected and preferential treatment is given to ensure that protection (something like affirmative action is preferable but not feasable given the current size/state of india)
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
Even though you are mixing two separate issues, I will play along.
I am definitely for huge changes in the current reservation system. creamy layer should be added, the number of usage by a family/person should be limited and so on. I understand that that would be hard to implement but if it can be done, I am all for it.
I said these are separate issues because Muslims never had to face the subjugation and brow-beating the lower castes had to face throughout history. A long history of systematic oppression makes it sensible to give reservation to them (much like African-Americans in US), but it makes zero sense for Muslims as they were rulers for so long. hell the state actually gave then preferential treatment for centuries! These two situations are absolutely not the same.
Nice try boxing me in though.
I find it incredibly amazing that a lot of people fail to see that it will only embolden the hindu right more if you keep giving preferential treatment to Muslims and Christians as it were the Hindus who were persecuted for so long, by Muslims and Christians. and when they see that Muslims still get treated better by the state, they are going to feel frustrated. how hard is that to see? Minorities need reservation? why? what is the reasoning?
No not the same on all aspects but at the Same time we don't have huge quotas for Muslims in our colleges either . So both minorities are getting dealt with in differing way .
And minorities need protection in a democratic government . Simply of how a democracy works and if Hindus keep feeling oppressed where we have so many rights and freedoms it's just insecurity on some levels . Yes there are obviously voter bank politics in play but that argument can be made for both sides and is more complicated .
What about Sikh oppression in India? If Muslim/Hindu relations are partly influenced by historical grievances between the two, what's the historical context to Hindu oppression of Sikhs in Punjab originating from?
Oh and you're absolutely right in regards to Muhammed Ali Jinnah and the partition of India. But I'd argue political power over any real religious reason for the creation of Pakistan. What West Pakistan did to also mostly Muslim East Pakistan, and the fact that India is home to a massive Muslim population, illustrates that argument.
Oh and you're absolutely right in regards to Muhammed Ali Jinnah and the partition of India. But I'd argue political power over any real religious reason for the creation of Pakistan. What West Pakistan did to also mostly Muslim East Pakistan, and the fact that India is home to a massive Muslim population, illustrates that argument.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Good on them..
Lamel
Banned
Okay, muslims ruled India for a long time, that's totally true. How does any of this make the slaughter of muslims for eating beef "understandable"?
A bit of sidebar and off-topic, but I just got home from seven weeks in Tamil Nadu and as an outsider the Indian attitude to cows (and the resulting attitude of the cows to people) took some getting used to. I knew about holy status of cows before I went, obviously, but the way the cows acted was not something I expected.
There are cows everywhere and they DNGAF. The cows, that is. They'll roam around towns eating trash, they'll lie down in the middle of busy streets and give zero fucks to traffic having to swerve to avoid hitting them. They're so used to people letting them do what they want that they behave as if there aren't people around at all. The night-drive back to the airport was a nightmare because the Indian way of driving combined with the need to make last second evasive maneuvers around herds of cows just lying around on the roads made it feel like a video game (even more than normal Indian traffic, which already feels like GTA most if the time).
There are cows everywhere and they DNGAF. The cows, that is. They'll roam around towns eating trash, they'll lie down in the middle of busy streets and give zero fucks to traffic having to swerve to avoid hitting them. They're so used to people letting them do what they want that they behave as if there aren't people around at all. The night-drive back to the airport was a nightmare because the Indian way of driving combined with the need to make last second evasive maneuvers around herds of cows just lying around on the roads made it feel like a video game (even more than normal Indian traffic, which already feels like GTA most if the time).
WrenchNinja
Member
I lived in Tamil Nadu for several years. Driving always scared the shit out of me riding on the back of my dad's motorcycle. It really is something else.
I think I can safely say that said night drive ranks among the most dangerous things I've ever done. Based on my driver and the people we met on the road, the agreed upon way to drive at night is this:
1: Always drive too fast. Never drive slow enough that you can brake in time. Since the roads are less trafficked at night you should drive at least twice as fast as you would during the day. If you need to power shift like a rally driver at every bend you're doing it right.
2: Traffic lanes are polite suggestions. Always drive in the middle of the road when there's no traffic. When you meet someone going the other way (who is also driving in the middle of the road), drive straight at them and only return to your lane at the last second.
3: Always drive with your high-beams on. Do not turn them off when there's oncoming traffic. This does mean that you and the other drivers will blind each other all the time but don't slow down, it's not like there are cows on the road, right?
4: There are always cows on the road. They prefer to lie around just after bends and when there's oncoming traffic. They will not move out of the way.
I actually worked at a hospital during my stay and while I wasn't in A&E or Casualty the patient records were full of people who'd been in accidents. Including some poor bloke who got run over by an oxcart and a guy who had an auto-rickshaw fall on him.
Messofanego
Banned
It's quite hilarious. Happens in Pakistan too, with the shepard herding the cows, but not as much in frequency.
Stereogatari
Banned
I've heard that India's currently elected government is a little bit more Hindu Fundamentalist than previous governments, so perhaps that is affecting attitudes in society now as well?
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
I have no issues with the second argument, but what is that first argument? Hindus themselves are a minority in Indian Punjab. Sikhs are the majority. and for the most part there are no problems there.
kittoo
Cretinously credulous
these are not empty securities bro. Just see the situation of Hindus in any Muslim majority area or district of India (Kashmir, south Bengal especially 24 parganas and murshidabad etc.). Read about muzzafarnagar riots. Petty fights were escalated when Muslims ambushed the Hindus returning from a gathering. fucking machine guns were fired at them from the mosque near a canal, and bodies were dumped in the canal. some were never found. and that's a district that's not even a Muslim majority district. Hindus are not allowed to do durga puja in lots of places in Bengal. every year there are hundreds of riots when hindu processions go through Muslim areas. rarely anything happens when muharram processions go (obviously from hindu majority areas most of the times, given the demographics).
Remember the communal violence bill that Congress was hell-bent on passing but BJP didn't let them? a hindu could be locked up in jail whenever any minority even claimed that they were religiously persecuted by that hindu, with no option of bail! is that justice and fairness? what's better, the hindu wouldn't even know who complained! that bill put the blame of all religious violence on Hindus, all the time! Despite the fact that Hindus almost always only retaliate. and you are telling me these are mere 'insecurities'?
Or maybe you should read about the azad maidan riots. they rioted for something that was happening in Myanmar (the rohingya thing). molested a lady cop, knifed another and desecrated amar jawaab Jyoti- a monument to those soldiers who lost their lives in 26/11 terrorist attacks. you think about such blatant daring comes without state bias and protection?
you said Hindus have so many rights. what rights? tell me one special right that Hindus have. only they have uniform civil code (Muslims marriages are ruled by sharia for the most part), they can't have their exclusive educational institutions (Muslims and Christians can) and Muslims and Christians can establish educational institutions giving admission to specifically their own. Hindus can't do that. Muslim and Christian educational institutions are exempt from tax, hindu ones aren't. hell, Hindus can't even manage their temples, the government does that (basically looting all the wealth), while Muslims and Christians manage their own. are you kidding me with the 'so many rights' thing?
Maybe you've been in US for too long and have forgotten how the situation is here.
RustyNails
Member
lol. That does bring back some memories. As for 3, you and the other dude usually dim the high-beams as you're just about to pass each other (happens on highways which is usually a one way road shared by oncoming traffic, bull carts, pedestrians and cyclists). Is it a gesture of courtesy? Or because you can see better when really close? I never found out.
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