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[DarienA]

It's a sad sad day when someone posts that Taiwan is Chinese property, and then they're lambasted and then labeled with the obligatory, "You must be Chinese..."

That is ignorance and that is arrogance.

And your followup statement about westerns wasn't? But that's not what I really want to focus on...

But there's a bigger picture. Taiwan has never been recognized politically as its own nation, and no one but Taiwan will push for that. Does it make it right? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not to say. But the fact remains. Taiwan IS China's.

Why? Seemingly because China "threatens" it's various economic partners whenever there seems to be any attempt to legitimize(sp?) Taiwan's independence. Again having not focused on this topic just read about it on and off over the years, that's what SEEMS to be going on.

As much as we'd like to identify with the Taiwanese, at what degree do we stop? Wars are fought every single day in the name of freedom, in the name of sovereignty. At what lengths do you concede to that? Are you the judge to determine that this locale should have its own independence, and that this people group should not?

There is no easy answer.

I just don't understand why there is such a deep rooted feeling that China must aborb/re-absorb Taiwan? Why is this the case? Taiwan has for all intent functioned autonomously for how long now? Is this a communist issue? An arrogance issue? A pride issue?

 

[Tsubaki]

I just don't understand why there is such a deep rooted feeling that China must aborb/re-absorb Taiwan? Why is this the case? Taiwan has for all intent functioned autonomously for how long now? Is this a communist issue? An arrogance issue? A pride issue?

I'm not even saying that China must/should take back Taiwan.

I can totally identify with wanting Taiwan to be independent. They sure don't -need- China, and I don't think China really needs them either.

But my point is that if we internally support Taiwan's independence, then we must ask ourselves those very questions for every other situation in the world where a group of people are wishing for their own independence. And what makes us the judge of that? What gives us the right to say that it's ok for Taiwan to be independent, but maybe not Chechnya from Russia? What about all the different tribes and factions that are springing up in Africa?

That is my point. Despite our personal feelings, who are we to judge.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Actually until the 70's Taiwan was recognized as the Republic of China, and China as we know it today was the rogue nation, the US had sided with the KMT...So i dunno where you got that.

 

[DarienA]

I'm not even saying that China must/should take back Taiwan.

I can totally identify with wanting Taiwan to be independent. They sure don't -need- China, and I don't think China really needs them either.

But my point is that if we internally support Taiwan's independence, then we must ask ourselves those very questions for every other situation in the world where a group of people are wishing for their own independence. And what makes us the judge of that? What gives us the right to say that it's ok for Taiwan to be independent, but maybe not Chechnya from Russia? What about all the different tribes and factions that are springing up in Africa?

That is my point. Despite our personal feelings, who are we to judge.

...didn't we support the independence of many of the countries that now are no longer part of Russia(my knowledge of that part of the world is shitty so excuse me if I'm wrong).

As for who are we to judge... well instead should we (if it happens), stand back and let China act on this new law they've passed?

In terms of tribes/factions vs. Taiwan I don't know that you can point those out as equal examples, then again my knowledge of their situations is even less.

Actually until the 70's Taiwan was recognized as the Republic of China, and China as we know it today was the rogue nation, the US had sided with the KMT...So i dunno where you got that.

I don't know if we can say the US has sided with either China or Taiwan... they've tended to try to walk this fine tight rope line of not really getting involved, but not really wanted China to take military action against Taiwan....

 

[Blackace]

I never said you MUST be Chinese... I just ask if he/she was Chinese. Because I have heard this before from many different angles, and most of the time it is the Chinese people who claim Taiwan as theirs. No one else in the world says that about Taiwan. Of the countless hours I have spent studying Asian history and deicated my life to living in Asia... it is funny to be called ignorant when I just asked a question about someone's background regarding their beliefs. Since people from different backgrounds have different views on the way things have shaken out in the world (Just ask Japanese people what happened in China and Korea during WWII and they will tell you they were in a war but that's about as detailed as you get.)

And if it was so clear cut as Taiwan IS China's then why must they use force? Taiwanese people want their freedom, they have suffered enough from the hands of China and Japan, I think they have earned that right.

 

[Draff]

Wars do not have to be fought.
You're forgetting the 1995 peaceful referendum in Quebec.

It's China who's lining up the thousands of ballistic missiles at the island.

 

[AssMan]

China has 400 ICBMs aimed at Taiwan, and by 2006 there will be 700. WW3 couldn't start just between the two countries, but if something like N Korea attacked S Korea, then the U.S. is bound by treaty to send 690,000 troops to help them.

 

[Fresh Prince]

C.R.E.A.M

Simple and plain.

 

[retardboy]

well Taiwanese people (most of the younger ones at least) want to stay Taiwan. They do not want to be China.. so in that regard I don't quite understand how they respect China so muc when China says they want to invade like every year...

But I do understand the whole homeland thing

I'm Chinese... moved to Taiwan when the communist took over. Grandfather was a general in the Nationalist army. I'd just like to say not even most Taiwanese people want to be an independent Taiwan. It's like the US... The people that want to reunite don't really vote in as large numbers because they don't believe that the people that want independence are freaken so damn committed. This can be seen by the election that just happened. Chen should not have been reelected. There should have at least been another vote. (Lots of debate as to whether the election was rigged... which it most likely was) Anyway, just wanted to say that.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

...didn't we support the independence of many of the countries that now are no longer part of Russia(my knowledge of that part of the world is shitty so excuse me if I'm wrong).

As for who are we to judge... well instead should we (if it happens), stand back and let China act on this new law they've passed?

In terms of tribes/factions vs. Taiwan I don't know that you can point those out as equal examples, then again my knowledge of their situations is even less.



I don't know if we can say the US has sided with either China or Taiwan... they've tended to try to walk this fine tight rope line of not really getting involved, but not really wanted China to take military action against Taiwan....

Uh yeah you can..look and see what country was in the UN before like 74 i think it was, its the republic of china, aka Taiwan.

 

[DarienA]

Uh yeah you can..look and see what country was in the UN before like 74 i think it was, its the republic of china, aka Taiwan.

That's not what I meant.... in terms of the China/Taiwan dispute what has the US done to "actively" support either side?

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Before Nixon, they supported Taiwan(RoC) because they approved of Chiang Kai Shek over Mao ze dong (please excuse spelling). Afterwards the UN recognized China PPR of china as china, and Taiwan ...wasnt a recognized country. The US has vowed to help Taiwan defend itself from invasion. After china was recognized as THE china, the debate was really dead, the only reason it ever existed was because of the KMT that fled to taiwan, and claimed that China was basically being ran by a rebel leader.

 

[mattx5]

Everyone needs to remember that it's not the Chinese people they should be hating, but their government. The people are victims of a regime bent on control and destruction. China has illegally been in control of Tibet for over 50 years now and are continuing the process of assimilating and destroying the Tibetan culture. Unfortunately, we live in a world ruled by economics, and a lot of countries are afraid to act on the greater good. It's a very selfish thought.

True, if conflict were to arise between China and say... the United States, both economies would take a huge hit. Many American citizens don't want that. Nobody would want their quality of life to suffer. But the fact is that the people in China are already suffering, and that it is our duty as human beings to treat them with the same dignity and respect which is given to us.

 

[ScientificNinja]

God, the Westernised ignorance in this thread is off the chart. How the hell does anyone HATE a country just because of the policy of its government? Ordinarily I'd say it shouldn't matter if you have an Asian background or not, but since most Westerners I've spoken to haven't the first idea about Chinese history - much less the reasons behind China re-taking Hong Kong in 97 - I'm inclined to think they're allowing their opinions to be swayed by socio-political brainwashing. Whether you feel Taiwan is part of China or not is a personal political issue - hating China for it is a ridiculous, but understandable if you live in Taiwan, Hong Kong or Macau. But for a bunch of Americans, most of whom have spent their lives memorising all the States in their own country and have never left their native soil? Christ - that's a bloody stretch. Mind your own bloody business.

My grandfather fought the communists in the mainland before moving to Hong Kong. He put the fear of god into me about their corruption. But for god's sake that doesn't mean I'd hate my own homeland - it irks me more than a bunch of separatist militia-men want to set up their own sovereign state and call it the "true" China. That's just preposterous. I hear about shit like that all the time in the US, and it seems just as proposterous.

I used to be fearful of what would happen to Hong Kong after 97, but you know what? It's doing FINE. It's doing abso-fucking-lutely fine. Business has bounced back. Sure you get the odd protest here and there, but you get that in Washington, too. Governments change. Regimes change. Political systems come in and out. Back in the day, they were called Dynasties. Doesn'tchange China at all.

 

[Ill Saint]

Everyone needs to remember that it's not the Chinese people they should be hating, but their government. The people are victims of a regime bent on control and destruction.

Oh give it a rest... "bent on control and destruction"? You make it sound as if the Chinese people are living in some hellish oppressive nightmare. Hardly the case. Certainly the Govt. and some of its policies are highly questionable, but drop the exaggerations. They are neither helpful or constructive, just hyperbole.

 

[lexy]

God, the Westernised ignorance in this thread is off the chart. How the hell does anyone HATE a country just because of the policy of its government? Ordinarily I'd say it shouldn't matter if you have an Asian background or not, but since most Westerners I've spoken to haven't the first idea about Chinese history - much less the reasons behind China re-taking Hong Kong in 97 - I'm inclined to think they're allowing their opinions to be swayed by socio-political brainwashing. Whether you feel Taiwan is part of China or not is a personal political issue - hating China for it is a ridiculous, but understandable if you live in Taiwan, Hong Kong or Macau. But for a bunch of Americans, most of whom have spent their lives memorising all the States in their own country and have never left their native soil? Christ - that's a bloody stretch. Mind your own bloody business.

My grandfather fought the communists in the mainland before moving to Hong Kong. He put the fear of god into me about their corruption. But for god's sake that doesn't mean I'd hate my own homeland - it irks me more than a bunch of separatist militia-men want to set up their own sovereign state and call it the "true" China. That's just preposterous. I hear about shit like that all the time in the US, and it seems just as proposterous.

I used to be fearful of what would happen to Hong Kong after 97, but you know what? It's doing FINE. It's doing abso-fucking-lutely fine. Business has bounced back. Sure you get the odd protest here and there, but you get that in Washington, too. Governments change. Regimes change. Political systems come in and out. Back in the day, they were called Dynasties. Doesn'tchange China at all.

Calm down. You and your America-hating comrades aren't any less ignorant for over-generalizing your view of "westerners."

The only reason why Hong Kong is doing "fine" is because Hong Kong hasn't been fully integrated into Mainland China.

 

[Xenon]

delete please

 

[Xenon]

I used to be fearful of what would happen to Hong Kong after 97, but you know what? It's doing FINE. It's doing abso-fucking-lutely fine.

Except for the movie industy =P

 

[norinrad21]

In the END all will be under HEAVEN

Thats just the way things are

 

[Timbuktu]

I think that the Chinese leadership does see that the economy is what will keep them in power and so I can't see why they would want to risk that for an invasion of Taiwan. If they succeed in the next 50 years sustaining and stablising China's growth (and for the world's sake lets hope they do) then it's probable that China would have swallowed Taiwan culturally and economically, ties between the two will be strong and it will be much easier to 'persuade' Taiwan to be part of China. In many ways, while many in HK are nostalgic about he colonial days, almost everyone recognises that HK will need China and play a new role in it. It's difficult to predict where China will be by 2047, but hopefully we'll get there without a war.

 

[ScientificNinja]

Calm down. You and your America-hating comrades aren't any less ignorant for over-generalizing your view of "westerners."

I've lived in the West for over 27 years, genius.

The only reason why Hong Kong is doing "fine" is because Hong Kong hasn't been fully integrated into Mainland China.

Would you care to elaborate on that one? Because it sounds like bullshit. the People's Army has its presence, the corporate sector is inundated with new companies originating from the mainland, Mandarin speakers are bloody everywhere, currency values are steady, kids are being taught Mandarin instead of Cantonese at school - have you even set foot in Hong Kong, or are you talking out of your arse?

 

[ScientificNinja]

Except for the movie industy =P

touche :lol having to switch between Mandarin and Cantonese every few minutes in Kung Fu Hustle was murder on my ears

 

[Stele]

I can totally identify with wanting Taiwan to be independent. They sure don't -need- China, and I don't think China really needs them either.

China doesn't really Taiwan, really, but Taiwan's economy is quite dependent upon China. Taiwan is just the flavor of the week. Five to ten years from now when individual Chinese provinces have more economic pull than Taiwan, the island won't be a blip on anyone's radar.

The only reason why Hong Kong is doing "fine" is because Hong Kong hasn't been fully integrated into Mainland China.

lol...Hong Kong is the sick man of China right now.

 

[Socreges]

The US still doesn't want China to invade Taiwan, they still favor stability and they are not eager to see China grow stronger, but when China chooses its time to push forward to Taiwan, the US won't push back. There's really not much they can do about it.

It really is just posturing by the Americans. Still, if China does invade/attack Taiwan and the US does nothing but yell obscenities, it will be an international relations nightmare for the US.

I'm not pro-China

You've sure been framing each of your posts in such a way, however.

It's a sad sad day when someone posts that Taiwan is Chinese property, and then they're lambasted and then labeled with the obligatory, "You must be Chinese..."

That is ignorance and that is arrogance.

That was one person, Blackace, and his ACTUAL quote was: "You wouldn't happen to be Chinese by any chance?"

After reading your post, I was wondering to myself if you were Chinese or not. Sure enough "I am ethnically Chinese". I believe we're seeing a pattern here.

But there's a bigger picture. Taiwan has never been recognized politically as its own nation, and no one but Taiwan will push for that. Does it make it right? Maybe, maybe not. I'm not to say. But the fact remains. Taiwan IS China's.

1) Taiwan has never been recognized politically because of how angry China would get
2) Taiwan should be independent by the fact that 'the people' so strongly desire it. Consider the province of Quebec in Canada. There was a push for independence by a significant faction of the population. What does Canada do? Allow for a referendum. It fails. Years later, another one is held, and again the majority votes to remain a part of Canada. If it had gone the other way, Canada would have granted Quebec its independence, at whatever cost. The situations are not identical, of course, but structurally I think it demonstrates how China should ideally be respecting the wishes of a distinct (culturally, they govern themselves, etc) group of people.

But my point is that if we internally support Taiwan's independence, then we must ask ourselves those very questions for every other situation in the world where a group of people are wishing for their own independence. And what makes us the judge of that? What gives us the right to say that it's ok for Taiwan to be independent, but maybe not Chechnya from Russia? What about all the different tribes and factions that are springing up in Africa?

That is my point. Despite our personal feelings, who are we to judge.

We are not authorities on any of these matters, but it's generally recognized that these people SHOULD have their independence.

Everyone needs to remember that it's not the Chinese people they should be hating, but their government. The people are victims of a regime bent on control and destruction. China has illegally been in control of Tibet for over 50 years now and are continuing the process of assimilating and destroying the Tibetan culture. Unfortunately, we live in a world ruled by economics, and a lot of countries are afraid to act on the greater good. It's a very selfish thought.

True, if conflict were to arise between China and say... the United States, both economies would take a huge hit. Many American citizens don't want that. Nobody would want their quality of life to suffer. But the fact is that the people in China are already suffering, and that it is our duty as human beings to treat them with the same dignity and respect which is given to us.

I think you're the person who suggested I do a paper on HR violations in China and the US's inactivity. Well, I researched, wrote a dozen pages, and my ultimate conclusion would be: you, mattx5, are wrong.

 

[ScientificNinja]

We are not authorities on any of these matters, but it's generally recognized that these people SHOULD have their independence.

Generally recognized by who?

I think a majority of the entire nation of China would disagree with you.

 

[Socreges]

Generally recognized by who?

I think a majority of the entire nation of China would disagree with you.

Since when do the Chinese concern themselves with conflicts in places like Chechnya? I don't think you noted the context of my reply.

 

[retardboy]

2) Taiwan should be independent by the fact that 'the people' so strongly desire it. Consider the province of Quebec in Canada. There was a push for independence by a significant faction of the population. What does Canada do? Allow for a referendum. It fails. Years later, another one is held, and again the majority votes to remain a part of Canada. If it had gone the other way, Canada would have granted Quebec its independence, at whatever cost. The situations are not identical, of course, but structurally I think it demonstrates how China should ideally be respecting the wishes of a distinct (culturally, they govern themselves, etc) group of people.

But the people don't want it. You're just always seeing those stupid ass kids protesting on tv because its good news to watch. I highly doubt even the majority of Taiwan wants to be independent.

 

[mattx5]

I think you're the person who suggested I do a paper on HR violations in China and the US's inactivity. Well, I researched, wrote a dozen pages, and my ultimate conclusion would be: you, mattx5, are wrong.

I'd love to read that paper, or some excerpts if possible. I'd actually like to hear what your arguments are, I'll admit, I'm not nearly as well researched as I should be.

 

[Socreges]

I'd love to read that paper, or some excerpts if possible. I'd actually like to hear what your arguments are, I'll admit, I'm not nearly as well researched as I should be.

I actually started my paper in agreement with you, thinking that's what position I'd take. But most things academic were actually contradicting much of what I was looking for so I ended up pulling a 180 and arguing the opposite.

I'd copy/paste the entire paper if I could, but I've lost the file and I only have a hard copy. Here's my conclusion:

Ultimately, even considering the apparent movement that China is gradually making towards appropriate human rights standards, there are still significant violations being committed on a regular basis. Religious intolerance, no admittance of political opposition, and a massive division between rich and poor remain pervasive. Neverthless, even though the United States professes its role in the international community as a fair and even hand in spreading freedom and democracy, and at the helm is one of the most aggressive American Presidents in recent memory, it may come as a surprise that China, while often criticized, has largely gone unscathed. This is because of the unique and strenuous circumstances surrounding China. Not only does America's national interest stand to lose out should sanctions or coercion be employed against China, but so too do the human rights victims themselves, along with much of the world, who depend so greatly on the two economies. It is thus suggested that the United States continue to express interest and concern towards China and their policy towards human rights, respectfully engaging them to progress on their own accord. In the meantime, the increasing economic and societal bond between China and the rest of the world can serve as the additional, and perhaps most significant catalyst towards liberal values and human rights.

Got 90%, which I think is particularly good since it's such an unpopular position.

If you have any questions or want me to substantiate any specific point, I can probably give another excerpt or two that would work.

But the people don't want it. You're just always seeing those stupid ass kids protesting on tv because its good news to watch. I highly doubt even the majority of Taiwan wants to be independent.

I don't live in Taiwan, so I don't know. I'm only going by any report that I've ever heard. If I'm wrong, then alright. My whole point obviously requires that the Taiwanese actually want independence (and we should consider that some people object to independence since it would anger China).

Links?

 

[Draff]

But the people don't want it. You're just always seeing those stupid ass kids protesting on tv because its good news to watch. I highly doubt even the majority of Taiwan wants to be independent.

Try telling that to my relatives.
Additionally, any questions asked in regards to independence should be phrased, "Would you want to declare independence if there were no external military threats?"

 

[lexy]

I've lived in the West for over 27 years, genius.

What does that prove? How ignorant you really are of your own country?

Would you care to elaborate on that one? Because it sounds like bullshit. the People's Army has its presence, the corporate sector is inundated with new companies originating from the mainland, Mandarin speakers are bloody everywhere, currency values are steady, kids are being taught Mandarin instead of Cantonese at school - have you even set foot in Hong Kong, or are you talking out of your arse?

Let me educate you.

Hong Kong became the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) of China on 1 July 1997.

In this agreement, China has promised that, under its "one country, two systems" formula, China's socialist economic system will not be imposed on Hong Kong and that Hong Kong will enjoy a high degree of autonomy in all matters except foreign and defense affairs for the next 50 years.

Generally recognized by who?

I think a majority of the entire nation of China would disagree with you.

Who are you to speak on behalf of the entire nation of China? Shut up.

 

[retardboy]

I don't live in Taiwan, so I don't know. I'm only going by any report that I've ever heard. If I'm wrong, then alright. My whole point obviously requires that the Taiwanese actually want independence (and we should consider that some people object to independence since it would anger China).

Most of my family still lives in Taiwan. I'd say the country is split. I wouldn't say there is a clear majority for independence or unification. Just look at the recent election in which the current president who supports independence very very barily got elected. (And there have been numberous reports of rigging the election...) I'm betting, if there wasn't that attempted assassination of Chen, he wouldn't be the current president. (And the assassination attempt is in question also...) It gave him the sympathy vote. IMO, the only reason he won the election is because the people who want indepenence are much more commited than the people that unification. They come out to vote in droves. The people that want unification, or at least Taiwan not to declare their independence, like the current status quo and so they don't go and vote as much. Just like in the US... people only vote if they don't like the status quo.

 

[Soybean]

How the hell does anyone HATE a country just because of the policy of its government?

It's pretty much understood (at least I thought) that it's the government that's hated. I'm sure the Chinese population is OK. Or at least they would be without state run media.

 

[Stele]

It's pretty much understood (at least I thought) that it's the government that's hated. I'm sure the Chinese population is OK. Or at least they would be without state run media.

The Communist government has survived turmoils greater than that of any that has transpired in any nation in contemporary history. I think they can survive the spite from a little twinkie.

 

[Draff]

IMO, the only reason he won the election is because the people who want indepenence are much more commited than the people that unification. They come out to vote in droves. The people that want unification, or at least Taiwan not to declare their independence, like the current status quo and so they don't go and vote as much. Just like in the US... people only vote if they don't like the status quo.

Or conversely, there are people who want independence but feel threatened by China, and therefore, are reluctant to vote for Chen?

 

[retardboy]

Or conversely, there are people who want independence but feel threatened by China, and therefore, are reluctant to vote for Chen?

Touche. But we'll never know. I still say there is no clear majority anywhere.

 

[Socreges]

Most of my family still lives in Taiwan. I'd say the country is split. I wouldn't say there is a clear majority for independence or unification. Just look at the recent election in which the current president who supports independence very very barily got elected. (And there have been numberous reports of rigging the election...) I'm betting, if there wasn't that attempted assassination of Chen, he wouldn't be the current president. (And the assassination attempt is in question also...) It gave him the sympathy vote. IMO, the only reason he won the election is because the people who want indepenence are much more commited than the people that unification. They come out to vote in droves. The people that want unification, or at least Taiwan not to declare their independence, like the current status quo and so they don't go and vote as much. Just like in the US... people only vote if they don't like the status quo.

Again, man, links. Such testimony that as many people want unification as those that want independence seems uncertain, though I agree that no "clear majority" is advocating independence.

And I'd just like to repeat what Draff and I said:

Additionally, any questions asked in regards to independence should be phrased, "Would you want to declare independence if there were no external military threats?"

(and we should consider that some people object to independence since it would anger China)

 

[Piecake]

The Communist government has survived turmoils greater than that of any that has transpired in any nation in contemporary history. I think they can survive the spite from a little twinkie.

I dont think you can make the claim that China's government is communist and that its the same government that survived all of the turmoils in the 50's and 60's.

 

[retardboy]

Again, man, links. Such testimony that as many people want unification as those that want independence seems uncertain, though I agree that no "clear majority" is advocating independence.

And I'd just like to repeat what Draff and I said:

Well it's not exactly like you have links that say a clear majority want independence. It's all speculation. Just look at the past election. If you read all the news stories on it, you'll see how close and dirty it was. There was even a huge ass thread on GA about it.

 

[Socreges]

Well it's not exactly like you have links that say a clear majority want independence. It's all speculation. Just look at the past election. If you read all the news stories on it, you'll see how close and dirty it was. There was even a huge ass thread on GA about it.

I'll readily concede that there is a split politically, but I still get the impression that the majority of Taiwanese ("the people") would support independence if there were no external consequences. Do you even disagree with that?

 

[ScientificNinja]

What does that prove? How ignorant you really are of your own country?

Don't be silly. I simply think it obscenely presumptuous to say I'm a "comrade" and that I don't understand Western culture.

Hong Kong became the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) of China on 1 July 1997.

In this agreement, China has promised that, under its "one country, two systems" formula, China's socialist economic system will not be imposed on Hong Kong and that Hong Kong will enjoy a high degree of autonomy in all matters except foreign and defense affairs for the next 50 years.

Yeah yeah yeah - anyone can recite a press release. Have you actually set foot in Hong Kong? The local culture is being absorbed AS WE SPEAK. Kids are being taught to speak a different language from their parents. Television adverts contain tutorials on how to pronounce words in Mandarin. Its models for commerce is being used in Shanghai. Come back when you've got something better than a press release to cite.

Who are you to speak on behalf of the entire nation of China? Shut up.

Obviously someone in a slightly more informed position than you are. Now go look up some more socio-political textbooks or something. Or shut up.

 

[ScientificNinja]

Since when do the Chinese concern themselves with conflicts in places like Chechnya? I don't think you noted the context of my reply.

*lol* yes, it seems I only caught part of it. Still, I think China would disagree. It's a matter of cultural and political sovereignty. These countries are in a position to run their own god damned business. It is not for the USA or any other country to disagree or interfere unless they're invited to; otherwise it looks a lot like a hostile take-over of their government in some way or another. That the USA selectively chooses which causes to take up arms over smells suspiciously of underhanded political agendas - like oil, furthering the spread of democracy and what not.

 

[android]

Don't those who want to be part of China really want to bring about democracy in China or at least retain it in Taiwan? Those who fled to Taiwan, wished to return someday and defeat the Communists, returning Chiang Kai-shek to power. Therefore don't those who want "One China" in Taiwan, really want one China with Taiwan but noCommunists? Do they really want to be governed by the mainland or do they just want peace?

 

[ScientificNinja]

Don't those who want to be part of China really want to bring about democracy in China or at least retain it in Taiwan? Those who fled to Taiwan, wished to return someday and defeat the Communists, returning Chiang Kai-shek to power. Therefore don't those who want "One China" in Taiwan, really want one China with Taiwan but noCommunists? Do they really want to be governed by the mainland or do they just want peace?

I think that's the crux of a lot of arguments in this thread. Hate to break it to the Taiwanese 'pro-democracy in China' supporters, but that ship sailed a loooong time ago. In fact, broadly speaking, it was the failures in the democratic system that drove China to Communism. Personally I'm comfortable with China being a Communist country. It's the road that they've chosen. Not saying I like it, but at the same time I'm not going to pay much mind to a bunch of sore losers who fled and lost their little war. Allowing the US to influence their position on Taiwan in any way, shape or form? Sorry - China has a recorded history that predates most countries on the planet. They're too proud to ever let that happen.

 

[Shouta]

Soybean: Do Vietnamese still have animosity toward the Chinese because of their history of Vietnamese occupation? I assume you live in the US, and maybe the the attention is more toward the Communists?

Not directed at me but I would like to chime in. Of all the things I've heard within the community, it's mostly animosity towards the government and their ferverent supporters. It's never readily discussed so I can't say for sure but that's what I can derive from what I heard and have asked. At the same time, there's some social underpinnings that have been affected because of government activities. While you'd never think it, there seems to be some deep-rooted resentment in most older Vietnamese despite what they say and sometimes what they do. Most of this is from my own observations (I'm much closer with the older generation of Vietnamese than I am the people born here or young folks that have emigrated here despite the fact I was born and raised here in Seattle) though so my thoughts can be worth a grain of salt and you might want to look to someone who's studied more actively.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

2) Consider the province of Quebec in Canada. There was a push for independence by a significant faction of the population. What does Canada do? Allow for a referendum. It fails. Years later, another one is held, and again the majority votes to remain a part of Canada. If it had gone the other way, Canada would have granted Quebec its independence, at whatever cost. The situations are not identical, of course, but structurally I think it demonstrates how China should ideally be respecting the wishes of a distinct (culturally, they govern themselves, etc) group of people.

Ummm...really? In his biography Jean Chretien (the Canadian Prime Minister at the time) stated that he was on the phone with Bill Clinton and was really freaked out about the whole Quebec separtists thing. He was ready to call the army into Quebec, if the "oui" vote won out, he admits as much. I don't remember saying he'd subdue all the people and make them remember who their supreme ruler is and that they can't leave with their poutine and their portion of Canada's debt, but I don't think he wanted to send the army in there to give them all hugs either...

As for China and Taiwan...It's a really tricky issue. The ONLY reason Taiwan is independent is due to US support of the KMT (or GMD) over the Communists in China during its civil war. The US provided weapons and finances to the KMT because they were anti-communist.

Just before the Japanese invaded China, China was in the midst of a civil war. The Kuomintang (KMT) were in power and were trying to wipe out the Communists to secure their dominance. In the middle of this civil war, the Japanese invaded China under some very questionable pretenses, which led to an undecided and vulnerable China. During this time, the Communists won support from the people by fighting (and very well I might add) the Japanese who had invaded China. The KMT on the other hand, who receiving weapons and finances from the US simply because they despised the Communists, were only doing a half-hearted job at defending the nation. Chiang Kai Shek focused more on wiping out the Communists first and then taking the on the Japanese, but the people did not like this approach because 'Chinese were killing Chinese and not the enemy.'

This internal strife led to Chiang Kai Shek's kidnapping towards the end of the civil war in the 'Xian Incident' by one of his generals. While in captivity, Chiang was forced to unit with the Communists to fight the Japanese. However, when the Japanese were defeated, the KMT tried to attack the Communists (note: this was a 2nd united front between the two and it was the second attempt to backstab the Communists, history is so messed up like that ). But the Communists were prepared for the KMT this time and repelled their attacks. With the loss of the people's support KMT had little choice but to flee.

Eventually the Communists took over China, the KMT fled to Taiwan (and from what I read they took a lot of money and valuables with them). China was the rogue state and Taiwan was the REAL China according to the US at the time. The US set up a blockade of ships and warned those commies in China to leave their allies in Taiwan alone. You honestly believe that a small country like Taiwan can face a juggarnaut with over 2.3 billion people all by itself?

Now personally, I feel if Taiwan wants its indepedence, it should go ahead and take it. China has enough problems to worry about and should really focus more on cleaning out the facitonalism, corruption, and disgorganization in its own government, and while they're at it I wouldn't mind seeing improved relations between all East Asian nations either.

But let's face it, does ANY country want to give up control of lands it feels it has a right to? Land equals money, power, and influence and no country really wants to give those up. The other thing to remember is that there's still a strong sense of 'face' in China right now and if the world sees that China is unable to control one of its own territories, then it might be viewed as a loss of face, an embarrassment, and potentially, a weakness.

 

[NetMapel]

Just so you guys know, retardboy is right about the split of unification and seperation in Taiwan. Just like the US election, the split between the two major parties are right down in the middle. I recall the percentage difference between the KMT and DDP is 0.228%. I have no idea how they can possibly deem the result of the election to be acceptable when the difference is less than 1%. That's worse than the ~2% difference in the recent US election between the Democrat and the Republican parties.

 

[ScientificNinja]

there's still a strong sense of 'face' in China right now

My sentiments exactly.

 

[Pellham]

That's not the only issue, they don't consider themselves Taiwan, they also consider themselves the RIGHTFUL China. Since they were a bunch of losers in the civil war that ran off to a piece of land owned by China in all the chaos and declared themselves legitimite there. How does that sound now?

Are you a commie or something? Taiwan is composed of the former democratic regime that ruled China, while China is the communist, totalitarian bastard country it is today. If anything, the fact that Taiwan is a free state while China executes political prisoners and kills children (tianamen square) is evidence that China needs to be put down like North Korea.

The only problem is that China is too large to invade. And that most countries, including the United States, simply hope that over time China will do away with communism like the USSR did and at the very least, improve its human rights record. Nobody wants a war between China and Taiwan, and everyone wants Taiwan to exist with its peaceful, freedom-supporting ways. If Taiwan is swallowed up by China, that's another victory for totalitarianism and will only result in millions of people losing their rights and freedom.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

Are you a commie or something? Taiwan is composed of the former democratic regime that ruled China, while China is the communist, totalitarian bastard country it is today. If anything, the fact that Taiwan is a free state while China executes political prisoners and kills children (tianamen square) is evidence that China needs to be put down like North Korea.

The only problem is that China is too large to invade. And that most countries, including the United States, simply hope that over time China will do away with communism like the USSR did and at the very least, improve its human rights record. Nobody wants a war between China and Taiwan, and everyone wants Taiwan to exist with its peaceful, freedom-supporting ways. If Taiwan is swallowed up by China, that's another victory for totalitarianism and will only result in millions of people losing their rights and freedom.

I think you're right that most countries are waiting for Communism to fall, and I think it might someday, perhaps in my lifetime. But if Taiwan is swallowed up by China it is NOT going to result in millions of people losing their rights and freedom. It would likely be turned into a SAR just like Hong Kong and Macau...I know China is often at odds with Taiwan, but I don't think Taiwan becoming a part of China is going to have drastic changes.