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[Ill Saint]

Are you a commie or something? Taiwan is composed of the former democratic regime that ruled China, while China is the communist, totalitarian bastard country it is today. If anything, the fact that Taiwan is a free state while China executes political prisoners and kills children (tianamen square) is evidence that China needs to be put down like North Korea.

Good grief...

 

[Piecake]

Are you a commie or something? Taiwan is composed of the former democratic regime that ruled China,

Thats incorrect. The KMT were not democratic. They were a corrupt authoritarian regime.

 

[retardboy]

I'll readily concede that there is a split politically, but I still get the impression that the majority of Taiwanese ("the people") would support independence if there were no external consequences. Do you even disagree with that?

Nope, don't agree with that, but I can see why you'd think that. I just don't believe that the majority of the people in Taiwan want to be indepenent. I believe they would like to be reunited. The whole purpose of moving to Taiwan was to one day reunite with China. (Albeit not with the communists, but a lot has changed in the years and I believe most of the people don't have the same feelings toward the government of China as they did before.)

 

[videogamer]

Are you a commie or something? Taiwan is composed of the former democratic regime that ruled China, while China is the communist, totalitarian bastard country it is today.

Depends on what you consider to be the "former democratic regime". When the KMT left China, they weren't exactly Democratic nor great supporters of human rights. I suggest you look up what happened on February 28, 1947.

Shouta: The Vietnamese classmates I have seem to have no problems with Chinese people at all. They also listen to Chinese music and shop at 99 Ranch. I just find it interesting that in a part of a world where historical rivalries continue in the culture (Thailand and Cambodia.. Korea and Japan), there does not seem to be much of a Vietnamese-Chinese even though this stuff is in their folklore (the Trung sisters).

OK, I need to stop hanging around Asians all the time. ;-)

 

[lexy]

Don't be silly. I simply think it obscenely presumptuous to say I'm a "comrade" and that I don't understand Western culture.

You claim to be an authority on western culture and China then proceed to make sweeping generalizations about both and state factual mistruths. You are not an authority on western culture or China. The only thing I can discern from what you have posted so far is that you are just really arrogant. Nothing more.

Yeah yeah yeah - anyone can recite a press release. Have you actually set foot in Hong Kong? The local culture is being absorbed AS WE SPEAK. Kids are being taught to speak a different language from their parents. Television adverts contain tutorials on how to pronounce words in Mandarin. Its models for commerce is being used in Shanghai. Come back when you've got something better than a press release to cite.

Your anecdotal evidence doesn't refute what I said. The fact of the matter is that as of this moment Hong Kong still isn't fully integrated into China. Period. You asked me to elaborate on what I had said earlier, and I did. Swallow your misguided pride and admit you were wrong.

Obviously someone in a slightly more informed position than you are. Now go look up some more socio-political textbooks or something. Or shut up.

You aren't anymore "informed" than the next person. You haven't lived in China or Hong Kong for 27 years. To me, the word of someone who still lives there is weighted far heavier than yours.

 

[Shouta]

Shouta: The Vietnamese classmates I have seem to have no problems with Chinese people at all. They also listen to Chinese music and shop at 99 Ranch. I just find it interesting that in a part of a world where historical rivalries continue in the culture (Thailand and Cambodia.. Korea and Japan), there does not seem to be much of a Vietnamese-Chinese even though this stuff is in their folklore (the Trung sisters).

OK, I need to stop hanging around Asians all the time. ;-)

To be honest, the younger generation is really ignorant to the entire history of Vietnam and its relationship to China. That's not necessarily a bad thing because there's very little, if any, animosity because of it. At the same time, it's kind of sad because this sort of thing should be known by my generation of Vietnamese and Vietnamese-Americans. Vietnam and China have always been at odds for as far back as I've read, it's just never been prominent or outright. At any rate, I said it's more so in the older generation of Vietnamese that I've noticed it, which I identify myself with more (in mindset).

 

[ScientificNinja]

You claim to be an authority on western culture and China then proceed to make sweeping generalizations about both and state factual mistruths. You are not an authority on western culture or China. The only thing I can discern from what you have posted so far is that you are just really arrogant. Nothing more.

No, you tried to write off my opinion by calling me a "comrade" and you can't handle being rebuked for making a poor assumption. I don't see how you can say personal anecdotal experience is a mistruth when all you have is material you've read from a book or magazine.

Your anecdotal evidence doesn't refute what I said. The fact of the matter is that as of this moment Hong Kong still isn't fully integrated into China. Period. You asked me to elaborate on what I had said earlier, and I did. Swallow your misguided pride and admit you were wrong.

Your quoted press releases don't prove anything either. Fact of the matter is that you've never set foot in Hong Kong (you've yet to say otherwise), you've got no idea how the political theory affects the day-to-day life in Hong Kong and all you've got are the extrapolations from a seven-year-old press release that's clearly out of date.

You aren't anymore "informed" than the next person. You haven't lived in China or Hong Kong for 27 years. To me, the word of someone who still lives there is weighted far heavier than yours.

I've lived in Hong Kong on and off for the last 27 years, I have family there with whom I am in regular contact with on nearly a daily basis and I consider it my second home. I was there a few weeks ago, too. That being the case, how about you say something to add some credibility to what you've said like telling us what you know beyond a seven-year-old press release, or get your pompous, arrogant ass out of my face.

 

[duckroll]

I never said you MUST be Chinese... I just ask if he/she was Chinese. Because I have heard this before from many different angles, and most of the time it is the Chinese people who claim Taiwan as theirs. No one else in the world says that about Taiwan.

Well I think there's also the issue that most people that don't live in Asia just plain don't care. It's just another outside issue that you can look at and criticize or analyze with no consequences whatsoever and no personal connection. Anyway no offense taken here on the question, curiosity is good and clears things up.

And if it was so clear cut as Taiwan IS China's then why must they use force? Taiwanese people want their freedom, they have suffered enough from the hands of China and Japan, I think they have earned that right.

We's just a small bunch of people here on the board and we can't agree about what's right or wrong in this case and you expect two entire nations ot be able to agree? Haha.


I just read the follow-ups on the thread that have been posted since I last checked it out and I find this gem that highlights everything wrong with the western opinion of this entire debate. This isn't a good or bad thing, just a perception thing:

Are you a commie or something?

Spoken like a true patriotic freedom loving American! :lol

 

[Socreges]

Ummm...really? In his biography Jean Chretien (the Canadian Prime Minister at the time) stated that he was on the phone with Bill Clinton and was really freaked out about the whole Quebec separtists thing. He was ready to call the army into Quebec, if the "oui" vote won out, he admits as much. I don't remember saying he'd subdue all the people and make them remember who their supreme ruler is and that they can't leave with their poutine and their portion of Canada's debt, but I don't think he wanted to send the army in there to give them all hugs either...

Can you give me the excerpt? Or an article that discusses that (I've never heard anything about it)? Because that doesn't make much sense, as you've said it. If he was going to call in the military, it would most likely be to calm tensions (think of the other half that want to remain Canadian -- they'd be very, very pissed).

*lol* yes, it seems I only caught part of it. Still, I think China would disagree. It's a matter of cultural and political sovereignty. These countries are in a position to run their own god damned business. It is not for the USA or any other country to disagree or interfere unless they're invited to; otherwise it looks a lot like a hostile take-over of their government in some way or another. That the USA selectively chooses which causes to take up arms over smells suspiciously of underhanded political agendas - like oil, furthering the spread of democracy and what not.

OK, now we're getting into a completely different argument. Tread carefully. You're on your own.

 

[ScientificNinja]

OK, now we're getting into a completely different argument. Tread carefully. You're on your own.

*lol* I realise Cultural sovereignty is something America seems to take for granted, which might explain a lot of other things.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Nope, don't agree with that, but I can see why you'd think that. I just don't believe that the majority of the people in Taiwan want to be indepenent. I believe they would like to be reunited. The whole purpose of moving to Taiwan was to one day reunite with China. (Albeit not with the communists, but a lot has changed in the years and I believe most of the people don't have the same feelings toward the government of China as they did before.)

HAHAH are you kidding me? The people on the island of Taiwan are taiwanese, YES chinese people fleeing from China wanted to get china back. But they arent in power anymore are they. The only reason taiwan had any desire to re unify was because the KMT was in power in taiwan...serious power they ran that place like a prison.

I recognize that some people want to reunify but they are probably chinese, not the taiwanese that were there before the KMT had to run to save their asses. Chiang Kai Shek always DREAMED of returning to china and taking it back from the communists, that was always his parties goal, otherwise why try and keep their UN status as the republic of china.

what you have to realize is the KMT/nationalist party ran taiwan with an iron fist, when they showed up they didnt say hey whats goin on, they killed people, and more people, then some more people, the taiwanese people, that had been under japanese rule for 50 years. They were under japanese rule cause china could give 2 shits about the island at the time and had to give japan something for getting owned in a war with them in 1895. As a matter of fact back in 1683, the same damn flight to taiwan happened when the manchu's were invading China. The chinese didnt even show up till after other inhabitants and even the portugese were already established on taiwan. Only later did followers of the Ming dynasty set up a formal chinese government on taiwan...and that was because of the Manchu's. And then like 30 years later the Quing dyanasty took over Taiwan, cause it was china? probably not, because enemies could flee there and escape the emperor? Prolly so.

 

[retardboy]

HAHAH are you kidding me? The people on the island of Taiwan are taiwanese, YES chinese people fleeing from China wanted to get china back. But they arent in power anymore are they. The only reason taiwan had any desire to re unify was because the KMT was in power in taiwan...serious power they ran that place like a prison.

I recognize that some people want to reunify but they are probably chinese, not the taiwanese that were there before the KMT had to run to save their asses. Chiang Kai Shek always DREAMED of returning to china and taking it back from the communists, that was always his parties goal, otherwise why try and keep their UN status as the republic of china.

what you have to realize is the KMT/nationalist party ran taiwan with an iron fist, when they showed up they didnt say hey whats goin on, they killed people, and more people, then some more people, the taiwanese people, that had been under japanese rule for 50 years. They were under japanese rule cause china could give 2 shits about the island at the time and had to give japan something for getting owned in a war with them in 1895. As a matter of fact back in 1683, the same damn flight to taiwan happened when the manchu's were invading China. The chinese didnt even show up till after other inhabitants and even the portugese were already established on taiwan. Only later did followers of the Ming dynasty set up a formal chinese government on taiwan...and that was because of the Manchu's. And then like 30 years later the Quing dyanasty took over Taiwan, cause it was china? probably not, because enemies could flee there and escape the emperor? Prolly so.

Yes, the thing is, there are still a whole lot of Chinese people on the island. (I would say it's a majority) Just like there are a whole lot of Mexicans in California. That doesn't mean they aren't part of the island. That doesn't mean you can exclude them from the people you call Taiwanese. The Chinese people took the island over. Most of the people there that are calling themselves Taiwanese and are screaming for independence are Chinese. Even the president who wants independence is Chinese. Just like America was taken over by the white people... They killed off the Indians and it was theirs.

 

[android]

I think that's the crux of a lot of arguments in this thread. Hate to break it to the Taiwanese 'pro-democracy in China' supporters, but that ship sailed a loooong time ago. In fact, broadly speaking, it was the failures in the democratic system that drove China to Communism. Personally I'm comfortable with China being a Communist country. It's the road that they've chosen. Not saying I like it, but at the same time I'm not going to pay much mind to a bunch of sore losers who fled and lost their little war. Allowing the US to influence their position on Taiwan in any way, shape or form? Sorry - China has a recorded history that predates most countries on the planet. They're too proud to ever let that happen.

I can't agree with the the part I bolded. If we are going to call Chiang Kai-shek and his supporters sore losers, we must do the same for the Communists. Just as Chiang Kai-shek lost the mainland the Communists lost Taiwan. And now it is them whinning about getting Taiwan back. Both sides lost territory, they now/did want back. I figure it should just be a draw. Chiang Kai-shek lost the mainland and Mao lost Taiwan. Is Britain going to call for America back or France for Quebec.

 

[DonasaurusRex]

Yes, the thing is, there are still a whole lot of Chinese people on the island. (I would be it's a majority) Just like there are a whole lot of Mexicans in California. That doesn't mean they aren't part of the island. That doesn't mean you can exclude them from the people you call Taiwanese.

Yes i know there are alot of mainland chinese on the Island NOW, but if they really want to reunify with china all they gotta do is move back to china. I think the people of taiwan made it clear what they want when 40 some odd years of martial law was ended, and even before that another 45 years of japanese rule, and before THAT another 200 some odd years of chinese rule. Thats like saying people in an african country cant have their country back from a european power because alot of europeans live there NOW. Taiwan keeps coming into the whole china debate because of ruling parties being ousted from the mainland and seeking refuge there, not because they are some rogue province that broke away in the 19th century. I dont see a problem with taiwan just being taiwan, it had been that way for hundreds of years before the chinese showed up.

 

[ScientificNinja]

I can't agree with the the part I bolded. If we are going to call Chiang Kai-shek and his supporters sore losers, we must do the same for the Communists. Just as Chiang Kai-shek lost the mainland the Communists lost Taiwan. And now it is them whinning about getting Taiwan back. Both sides lost territory, they now/did want back. I figure it should just be a draw. Chiang Kai-shek lost the mainland and Mao lost Taiwan. Is Britain going to call for America back or France for Quebec.

Mao's loss is Chiang Kai Shek's gain? Well... I ain't arguing with that logic

 

[Piecake]

Mao couldnt loose taiwan because he never had it

 

[Foreign Jackass]

[MAF Reference]
China ROCKS! They have crab rolled up in BACON! BACON I SAY!

 

[android]

Mao couldnt loose taiwan because he never had it

I'm not sure if the communists had a presence there at the time, but both parties in the civil war considered it part of China and Mao didn't get it therefore he lost it. If not then why is there a problem today. If he had fled to Indonesia or Malaysia or elsewhere we wouldn't be sitting here discussing it. The communists wanted it and they still do, and if they could have gotten there first they would have won it.

 

[lexy]

No, you tried to write off my opinion by calling me a "comrade" and you can't handle being rebuked for making a poor assumption. I don't see how you can say personal anecdotal experience is a mistruth when all you have is material you've read from a book or magazine.

All the evidence you presented is anecdotal. This is what started this argument in the first place. You accuse me of making a poor assumption yet your entire argument is full of poor assumptions.

Do you know what the problem with anecdotal evidence is? It can’t be proven. I would never go so far to call you a liar, but I will say that how you interpret your experiences is open for debate. What your argument boils down to thus far is, “I’ve been to China, and therefore what I’m saying about China and its people is correct.” Similarly, going back to your original comments about “westerners,” “I’ve lived in the west for 27 years, and therefore what I am saying about westerners is correct.”

Your quoted press releases don't prove anything either. Fact of the matter is that you've never set foot in Hong Kong (you've yet to say otherwise), you've got no idea how the political theory affects the day-to-day life in Hong Kong and all you've got are the extrapolations from a seven-year-old press release that's clearly out of date.

Are you serious? Factual evidence doesn't prove anything. That one is definitely new to me. Arrogance is one thing, but now you are just being silly.

I've lived in Hong Kong on and off for the last 27 years, I have family there with whom I am in regular contact with on nearly a daily basis and I consider it my second home. I was there a few weeks ago, too. That being the case, how about you say something to add some credibility to what you've said like telling us what you know beyond a seven-year-old press release, or get your pompous, arrogant ass out of my face.

If I tell you that I had been there this past summer it wouldn't add any more credibility to my argument. For that matter, would you even believe me at this point? I would be shocked if you suddenly conceded your argument upon this revelation. Your circular logic is amusing to say the least.

 

[Stele]

At any rate, I said it's more so in the older generation of Vietnamese that I've noticed it, which I identify myself with more (in mindset).

You identify with the older generation more in mindset? In what way can you do so without seeming affected? Are you even fluent and literate in Vietnamese? Do you bear the cultural memories? Or do you just say this as some gesture to separate yourself from your assimilated peers?

Yes i know there are alot of mainland chinese on the Island NOW, but if they really want to reunify with china all they gotta do is move back to china

Taiwan is essential to the territorial sovereignty of China and is affirmed by such international accords as the Cairo Proclamation. Taiwan, the island, is apart of China. The Hoklo and Hakka populations can do whatever they please; China already has enough of both groups in the mainland. Move to Singapore (like they can fit anymore people there), join the Huaqiao populations in Southeast Asia, whatever.

I would be shocked if you suddenly conceded your argument upon this revelation.

At least he has an argument. Your argument fell apart before it began, which I'm assuming is Hong Kong is performing better economically than the rest of China because of the yiguo, liangzhi policies, but I'm not sure since you've been splitting hairs on BS for the past couple posts. Once again, Hong Kong right now is a hive of nepotism and decay. Guangzhou and Shenzhen will both surpass the city in a decades time.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Taiwan belongs to China. I understand the sentiment about them being independent, but not legally. If you want to claim them as a country, they why don't we give that wacko group in Texas credence? Wasn't there some Texas group trying to secede from the union? Why not allow Texas to gain its independence from the US? Why not allow me to liberate my backyard as my own country so I can finally grow marijuana legally? The way the world works makes Taiwan China's property, and the illusion of freedom they experience is just that. Should they really move to "steal" Taiwan, I expect the mainland to unleash the hounds on them in no time. There's nothing the US can do without getting involved in the war. We've interfered enough, but we won't risk a World War over it. PEACE.

 

[Kuro Madoushi]

Can you give me the excerpt? Or an article that discusses that (I've never heard anything about it)? Because that doesn't make much sense, as you've said it. If he was going to call in the military, it would most likely be to calm tensions (think of the other half that want to remain Canadian -- they'd be very, very pissed).

Um, it was in Jean Chretien's TV biography on a show called "Life and Times" on CBC. I wasn't interested at first, but then they started talking about Quebec separtism and Chretien's words really shocked me.

 

[Soybean]

You identify with the older generation more in mindset? In what way can you do so without seeming affected? Are you even fluent and literate in Vietnamese? Do you bear the cultural memories? Or do you just say this as some gesture to separate yourself from your assimilated peers?

Why are you being an ass?

I have to say, Shouta, I'm not as aware of Vietnamese culture as I'd like to be. I blame my parents. And myself. But I will be visiting Vietnam for the first time ever this year. Should be enlightening.

Anyway, even aside from Taiwan issue, there seems like there's plenty more to hate. But anyone can feel free to enlighten me if they feel I shouldn't. I'm pretty one-sided on this. My dad, who's pretty dedicated to Buddhism, gets newsletters and magazines that decry the Tibetan situation. I see Falun Gong demonstrations in New York. I hear about people who speak out against the government being arrested. I read about internet censorship. I just don't understand. Do they really believe that withholding information, restricting speech leads to a better society?

 

[ConfusingJazz]

Taiwan belongs to China. I understand the sentiment about them being independent, but not legally. If you want to claim them as a country, they why don't we give that wacko group in Texas credence? Wasn't there some Texas group trying to secede from the union? Why not allow Texas to gain its independence from the US? Why not allow me to liberate my backyard as my own country so I can finally grow marijuana legally? The way the world works makes Taiwan China's property, and the illusion of freedom they experience is just that. Should they really move to "steal" Taiwan, I expect the mainland to unleash the hounds on them in no time. There's nothing the US can do without getting involved in the war. We've interfered enough, but we won't risk a World War over it. PEACE.

Well, for one thing, the majority of Texans don't want independence, unlike say...Taiwan. Comparing a couple hicks from west Texas or you wanting your backyard to secede to the majority or near majority of a very large population isn't really all that similar.

 

[Blackace]

Well, for one thing, the majority of Texans don't want independence, unlike say...Taiwan. Comparing a couple hicks from west Texas or you wanting your backyard to secede to the majority or near majority of a very large population isn't really all that similar.

I agree! Also Texas hasn't changed ownership a number of times over the last 200 years. Taiwan has and has done pretty well on their own.

 

[Stele]

Why are you being an ass?
I just don't understand.

Why are you being pretentious? The opinions you spout are purely derived from a Western-centric worldview, yet you attempt to inject some Asian sentimentality you obviously don't have the qualifications to invoke to shore up some semblance of validity. Stupid shit like Falun Gong, internet censorship, and Taiwan saber-rattling isn't even close to what's really wrong with China. It's the haze that conceals what's really broken -- China's rising Gini coefficient.

I agree! Also Texas hasn't changed ownership a number of times over the last 200 years. Taiwan has and has done pretty well on their own.

I also agree that sub-Saharan Africa should shape up, but that doesn't mean shit. Taiwan's relative prosperity to China is at the expense of China, because the Nationalists embezzled the national treasury of an entire sub-continent and concentrated it on a small island, not to mention with a American sugar daddy subsidizing their ass.

Personally, I think Taiwan pride is a farce. I see Taiwan international students licking the boots of Jap. exchange students at my college, and it makes me sick. We're all wasting our breath anyway. Taiwan's got maybe another 3 or 4 year window for independence, and then it's shut forever.

 

[Blackace]

Personally, I think Taiwan pride is a farce. I see Taiwan international students licking the boots of Jap. exchange students at my college, and it makes me sick.

huh? well that explains everything then!

 

[Piecake]

Taiwan belongs to China. I understand the sentiment about them being independent, but not legally. If you want to claim them as a country, they why don't we give that wacko group in Texas credence? Wasn't there some Texas group trying to secede from the union? Why not allow Texas to gain its independence from the US? Why not allow me to liberate my backyard as my own country so I can finally grow marijuana legally? The way the world works makes Taiwan China's property, and the illusion of freedom they experience is just that. Should they really move to "steal" Taiwan, I expect the mainland to unleash the hounds on them in no time. There's nothing the US can do without getting involved in the war. We've interfered enough, but we won't risk a World War over it. PEACE.

China only conquered Taiwan in the 1680's, and China lost it to Japan in 1895. Im not totally sure what happened to Taiwan after that, but i believe Japan was forced to give up its colonies after losing WWII, and I highly doubt that Taiwan was given back to China. Furthermore, Taiwan was almost completely composed of Tawainese before Chang Kaishek fled to there. Because of that, i would hardly say that Taiwan belongs to China, because historically, Taiwan was never referred to as a part of Han China.

 

[Soybean]

what's really broken -- China's rising Gini coefficient.

Why? Isn't the U.S.'s almost exactly the same as China's and been in that same range for decades? It sucks and it's immoral, but it's sustainable.

 

[NetMapel]

Like me and several others already mentioned. Taiwan was not on the official map of China until the last dynasty in China, the Qing dynasty. The only reason why Qing even bothered with Taiwan was because a defecto group who was fighting to restore the previous Ming dynasty fled to Taiwan after losing to the Qing armies. Eventually Qing was able to conqured the defecto group and took over Taiwan, but nothing was really done to improve the island. Oh yeah, and when the Ming defecto group escaped to Taiwan the island, they had to fight off the Dutch who occupied the island for God knows how long. Fast forward to WWII, after China lost to Japan, one of the first piece of land China agrees to give to Japan is TAIWAN. That really shows a lot of concern the mainland Chinese have for the island... there is a good reason why Taiwanese don't like China, because they are constantly getting screwed by the mainland government.

 

[Takuan]

This debate has me wondering how many of the vocal separatists in Taiwan are actually native Taiwanese. A lot of these notions of independence and freedom seem a bit misguided, really.

 

[speedpop]

My girlfriend who is Singaporean but of chinese descent likes to call people from China "Chinarians". She seems to dislike quite a lot of them because they are cheap, ruthless and think they own the place.

As for the Taiwan topic, her friend is Taiwanese and doesn't consider herself Chinese whatsoever and doesn't really wish to be associated with China itself.

 

[NetMapel]

My girlfriend who is Singaporean but of chinese descent likes to call people from China "Chinarians". She seems to dislike quite a lot of them because they are cheap, ruthless and think they own the place.

As for the Taiwan topic, her friend is Taiwanese and doesn't consider herself Chinese whatsoever and doesn't really wish to be associated with China itself.

Yeah, that's the general trend of the Taiwanese youth right now. The youth don't really associate themselves as Chinese and don't want to because of how screwed up the Chinese society is. The youth prefer to be just Taiwanese and enjoy the freedom we have on the little island. China isn't really helping themselves in this situation too with about 700 missles pointing at the island...

 

[Fresh Prince]

There was a piece on Foreign Correspondent about this.
They pointed out a interesting fact such as that only 3 (or maybe 1) in 10 people consider themselves Chinese in Taiwan.
Also the current President did not come to Taiwan during the Communist Takeover but rather his family were the original inhabitants (or already living there for several hundred years) which would explain his fiercley indepedant stance.

From what I understood of the piece I think Taiwanese realise that they need China to be economically secure and profitable but retaining their relative indepedance. Could a 'One country, Two systems' work in Taiwan?

 

[ScientificNinja]

All the evidence you presented is anecdotal. This is what started this argument in the first place. You accuse me of making a poor assumption yet your entire argument is full of poor assumptions.

Talk about losing the plot.

If I recall correctly, the first post you directed towards me said "Calm down. You and your America-hating comrades aren't any less ignorant for over-generalizing your view of "westerners." The only reason why Hong Kong is doing "fine" is because Hong Kong hasn't been fully integrated into Mainland China." - the sole aim of which is to accuse me of being ignorant of Western culture, as well as to presume I'm a "comrade". I don't know how many times I can tell you that you're incorrect on both counts.

What's more, I've got no idea how or why you're clinging so steadfastly to what's essentially a minor aside to the broader debate about Taiwan's relationship with China. I raised Hong Kong simply to draw an analogy. If you don't agree with it, I'm fine with that. But my opinion of the state of Hong Kong isn't based on fluffery and I certainly won't be paying any credence to someone who tells me that my personal observations over the years are wrong because someone has a seven-year-old piece of paper that says otherwise. Does your press release go into any kind of detail about business activity, legal migration, security, education or media? No? I didn't think so. Anyhow, I hate having to make any greater mountain out of this molehill for everyone else to read, but I'm not going to sit here and let someone who probably disagrees with my political leanings try to discredit my own experiences with a half-arse seven year-old press release.

Do you know what the problem with anecdotal evidence is? It can’t be proven.

Sure it can. Instead of judging other countries from the far-off comforts of your media-filtered world, you can go there and see it for yourself! Rock stars and movie stars do it all the time.

I would never go so far to call you a liar, but I will say that how you interpret your experiences is open for debate. What your argument boils down to thus far is, “I’ve been to China, and therefore what I’m saying about China and its people is correct.” Similarly, going back to your original comments about “westerners,” “I’ve lived in the west for 27 years, and therefore what I am saying about westerners is correct.”

Apart from the the interpretations I can draw from my anecdotal experiences, the only factual assertation I've made (and it's a stretch at best) is that you've never set foot in Hong Kong.

Is it such a stretch to believe that I might be of a multicultural background? Every day I read about and encounter Americans who can speak confidently about their Jewish, African or Japanese backgrounds, Germans who speak of their English, French or Danish backgrounds, Malaysians who speak of their Vietnamese and Chinese backgrounds - Heaven forbid a Chinese person should be able to speak about their Western lifestyle!

If I tell you that I had been there this past summer it wouldn't add any more credibility to my argument. For that matter, would you even believe me at this point? I would be shocked if you suddenly conceded your argument upon this revelation. Your circular logic is amusing to say the least.

If you told me you've been to Hong Kong this past Summer, I'd have taken your word for it - but everything you've said seems to suggest otherwise and it's frankly pathetic that you're still trying to discredit a person's personal experiences with a seven year-old news clipping. I'm quite open-minded and I'll happily accept/discuss/debate Hong Kong with people who actually know what's happening there at ground zero, but that news clipping is just absurd.

 

[lexy]

At least he has an argument. Your argument fell apart before it began, which I'm assuming is Hong Kong is performing better economically than the rest of China because of the yiguo, liangzhi policies, but I'm not sure since you've been splitting hairs on BS for the past couple posts. Once again, Hong Kong right now is a hive of nepotism and decay. Guangzhou and Shenzhen will both surpass the city in a decades time.

Are you talking to me or him?

If you are talking to me then perhaps you should re-read the entire thread.

"Hong Kong still isn't fully integrated into Mainland China.

Hong Kong became the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) of China on 1 July 1997. In this agreement, China has promised that, under its "one country, two systems" formula, China's socialist economic system will not be imposed on Hong Kong and that Hong Kong will enjoy a high degree of autonomy in all matters except foreign and defense affairs for the next 50 years."

10 February, 2005

What is so hard to understand here?

Talk about losing the plot.

If I recall correctly, the first post you directed towards me said "Calm down. You and your America-hating comrades aren't any less ignorant for over-generalizing your view of "westerners." The only reason why Hong Kong is doing "fine" is because Hong Kong hasn't been fully integrated into Mainland China." - the sole aim of which is to accuse me of being ignorant of Western culture, as well as to presume I'm a "comrade". I don't know how many times I can tell you that you're incorrect on both counts.

Excuse me but did you not say the following?

"Ordinarily I'd say it shouldn't matter if you have an Asian background or not, but since most Westerners I've spoken to haven't the first idea about Chinese history - much less the reasons behind China re-taking Hong Kong in 97 - I'm inclined to think they're allowing their opinions to be swayed by socio-political brainwashing. Whether you feel Taiwan is part of China or not is a personal political issue - hating China for it is a ridiculous, but understandable if you live in Taiwan, Hong Kong or Macau. But for a bunch of Americans, most of whom have spent their lives memorising all the States in their own country and have never left their native soil? Christ - that's a bloody stretch. Mind your own bloody business."

What's more, I've got no idea how or why you're clinging so steadfastly to what's essentially a minor aside to the broader debate about Taiwan's relationship with China. I raised Hong Kong simply to draw an analogy. If you don't agree with it, I'm fine with that. But my opinion of the state of Hong Kong isn't based on fluffery and I certainly won't be paying any credence to someone who tells me that my personal observations over the years are wrong because someone has a seven-year-old piece of paper that says otherwise. Does your press release go into any kind of detail about business activity, legal migration, security, education or media? No? I didn't think so. Anyhow, I hate having to make any greater mountain out of this molehill for everyone else to read, but I'm not going to sit here and let someone who probably disagrees with my political leanings try to discredit my own experiences with a half-arse seven year-old press release.

I'm genuinely curious here. What are you talking about when you say "seven-year-old piece of paper?" Where are you getting the seven years?

You are the one that has chosen to take issue with me. You insult American people, you insult me, and you expect me to sit back, smile and nod?

Sure it can. Instead of judging other countries from the far-off comforts of your media-filtered world, you can go there and see it for yourself! Rock stars and movie stars do it all the time.

Oh please. Don't even waste my time with this drivel.

Apart from the the interpretations I can draw from my anecdotal experiences, the only factual assertation I've made (and it's a stretch at best) is that you've never set foot in Hong Kong.

And you were wrong about that too.

Is it such a stretch to believe that I might be of a multicultural background? Every day I read about and encounter Americans who can speak confidently about their Jewish, African or Japanese backgrounds, Germans who speak of their English, French or Danish backgrounds, Malaysians who speak of their Vietnamese and Chinese backgrounds - Heaven forbid a Chinese person should be able to speak about their Western lifestyle!

What are you trying to say here?

If you told me you've been to Hong Kong this past Summer, I'd have taken your word for it - but everything you've said seems to suggest otherwise and it's frankly pathetic that you're still trying to discredit a person's personal experiences with a seven year-old news clipping. I'm quite open-minded and I'll happily accept/discuss/debate Hong Kong with people who actually know what's happening there at ground zero, but that news clipping is just absurd.

Hey, guess what asshole? MY GIRLFRIEND IS ACTUALLY FROM HONG KONG (not; I'm originally from China but I've lived in the United States for 27 years, like you) AND I WENT THERE THIS PAST SUMMER WITH HER TO MEET HER PARENTS/FAMILY. If you want the exact details of how I met her, what she thinks of China, Hong Kong, Taiwan and/or Tibet and the exact dates I was in Hong Kong feel free to PM me.

Did you ever stop to think that some people might actually have tact and class, and don't go waving their ethnicity/background in the face of others as if it somehow entitles them to put down the opinions of others? I'm honestly ashamed that I share anything in common with you.

 

[Deleted member 4784]

I can't hate China because I love Chinese guys. :lol