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AP: Bush Claimed Right to Waive Torture Laws

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http://abcnews.go.com/wire/Politics/ap20040623_400.html

Bush Claimed Right to Waive Torture Laws
Bush Claimed Right to Waive Anti-Torture Laws and Treaties Covering Prisoners of War

The Associated Press



WASHINGTON June 23, 2004 — The Bush administration laid out its legal reasoning for denying terror war suspects the protections of international humanitarian law but immediately repudiated a key memo arguing that torture might be justified in the fight against al-Qaida.

The release Tuesday of hundreds of pages of internal memos by the White House was meant to blunt criticism that President Bush had laid the groundwork for the abuses of Iraqi prisoners by condoning torture. The president insisted Tuesday: "I have never ordered torture."

But critics said the developments left unresolved some questions about the administration's current guidelines for interrogating prisoners in Iraq and around the world. For example, a 2002 order signed by Bush says the president reserves the right to suspend the Geneva Conventions on treatment of prisoners of war at any time.

"These documents raise more questions than they answer," said Sen. Charles Schumer, D-N.Y. "The White House is better off coming clean and releasing all relevant and nonclassified documents."

The White House released Defense Department memos detailing some of the harsh interrogation methods approved and then rescinded by Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld in 2002 and 2003. The administration continues to refuse to say what interrogation methods are approved for use now.

Six soldiers face criminal charges for abusing and humiliating Iraqi prisoners at the Abu Ghraib complex near Baghdad. Another soldier pleaded guilty and received a one-year prison term. The Justice Department has filed criminal assault charges against a contract CIA interrogator, accusing him of beating a prisoner in Afghanistan who later died.

An Aug. 1, 2002, Justice Department memo argues that torture and even deliberate killing of prisoners in the terror war could be justified as necessary to protect the United States. The memo from then-assistant attorney general Jay Bybee also offers a restricted definition of torture, saying only actions that cause severe pain akin to organ failure would be torture.

Bybee is now a justice on the 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals.


The Justice Department backed away from Bybee's memo Tuesday. Senior department officials who spoke on condition of anonymity said the memo would be rewritten because it contains advice that is too broad and irrelevant. The officials, who briefed several reporters in a widely publicized news conference, said department policy allowed them to demand anonymity.

The White House also released documents detailing some of the most harsh interrogation methods Rumsfeld approved for use on prisoners at the lockup at the U.S. naval base at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

Rumsfeld's Nov. 27, 2002, memo approved several methods which apparently would violate Geneva Convention rules, including:

Putting detainees in "stress positions," such as standing, for up to four hours.

Removing prisoners' clothes.

Intimidating detainees with dogs.

Interrogating prisoners for 20 hours at a time.

Forcing prisoners to wear hoods during interrogations and transportation.

Shaving detainees' heads and beards.

Using "mild, non-injurious physical contact," such as poking.

Prisoners at Abu Ghraib were interrogated for as long as 20 hours at a time, kept hooded and naked, intimidated with dogs and forcibly shaved. Bush and other administration officials have said other treatment at the Iraqi prison, such as forcing prisoners to perform sex acts, beating them and piling them in a naked human pyramid, were unquestionably illegal.

Less than two months later, on Jan. 15, 2003, Rumsfeld rescinded approval for those methods without saying why. He appointed a Pentagon panel to recommend proper interrogation methods.

That panel reported to Rumsfeld in April 2003, and its recommendations included prohibiting the removal of clothes, which it said could be considered inhumane treatment under international law. Rumsfeld issued a new set of approved interrogation methods later that month, disallowing nakedness and requiring approval for four techniques: use of rewards or removal of privileges; verbally attacking or insulting the ego of a detainee; alternating friendly and unfriendly interrogators in a "good cop, bad cop" method; and isolation.

Bush had agreed in February 2002 that al-Qaida and Taliban prisoners at Guantanamo Bay were not protected by the Geneva Conventions on prisoners of war because they violated the laws of war themselves.

Bush's previously secret Feb. 7, 2002, order also agrees with Justice and Pentagon lawyers that a president can ignore U.S. law and treaties.

"I accept the legal conclusion of the Attorney General and the Department of Justice that I have the authority to suspend Geneva (conventions) as between the United States and Afghanistan," Bush wrote. "I reserve the right to exercise this authority in this or future conflicts."

Bush and Rumsfeld have said the Geneva Conventions do apply to all prisoners in Iraq.

But Rumsfeld acknowledged last week that he ordered a suspected terrorist to be secretly held in Iraq without notifying the International Committee of the Red Cross, which is a violation of the Geneva Conventions. Rumsfeld said he approved an unspecified number of other, similar secret detentions.

Associated Press writers Curt Anderson, Robert Burns and Scott Lindlaw contributed to this report.

Holy shit.
 
V

Vennt

Unconfirmed Member
"I accept the legal conclusion of the Attorney General and the Department of Justice that I have the authority to suspend Geneva (conventions) as between the United States and Afghanistan," Bush wrote. "I reserve the right to exercise this authority in this or future conflicts."

Is there a source for this?

Because it is hellishly evil, and will damage not just the US, but the whole of the West if it is an accurate, in-context quote. (Not that I can see much room for context-wrangling by the media in this instance).

"Our morals are the highest! unless we're fighting a lesser culture without such morals, in which case we'll jump down off this high-horse and mudwrestle, but somehow still maintain our higher moral ground"

Freeburn.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
Wow. Bush has made what I would call modernly unprecidented moves at expanding presidential power and priveledge. Against "big government", pro "big ruler"?

This is all pretty crazy.
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
DJ Brannon said:
...and this all started with dimpled chads...
You know, whether ultimately Famous or Infamous, these last four years have been guaranteed a sizable spot in history books of the future.
 

darscot

Member
The stupidity of this amazes me. It's political suicide. Even if you overlook the humanatarian aspects of it. Torture has proven countless times that it does not work. IF you beat someone long enough there going to tell you what ever the hell they think you want to hear. What validaty can you give that information. You might as well base your inteligence on a magic 8 ball. I don't understand why you would risk the backlash from this, all for bad information. It's hard to comprehend just how stupid this is.
 

darscot

Member
One name came to my mind John Titor. I used to think it was pretty funny but it's starting to get a little creepy.
 

ge-man

Member
darscot said:
I don't understand why you would risk the backlash from this, all for bad information.

Because he's a man of "conviction."

I'm really beginning to hate that saying. I don't care what the fuck you believe, if it's wrong your conviction doesn't make it right.
 

iapetus

Scary Euro Man
Freeburn said:
Is there a source for this?

Because it is hellishly evil, and will damage not just the US, but the whole of the West if it is an accurate, in-context quote. (Not that I can see much room for context-wrangling by the media in this instance).

Agreed 100%.

bishoptl said:
Where are the forum conservatives to spin this puppy away? Gentlemen? Hellooooooo

Well, you see, when Bush wrote that he reserved the right to break the Geneva convention he... well... he's probably got a book coming out.
 
Buggy Loop said:
One word came to mind after reading this, Mabus. Sad thing is, watch him get re-elected this year.

Which would make him either the anti-christ ... or the prelude to the anti-christ. lol
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
What's to spin really? He's an asshole. Although, I gotta tell ya, if we ever rounded up any of the groups responsible for this recent spate of beheadings, I'd hope they get beat up just a bit while in captivity. Hey, the NYPD does it all the time! ;P
 
The Bush administration is so flawed, they need to get rid of Wolfowitz. It has no integrity at all, if Bush is re-elected, expect the draft to return.

Michael Moore's film almost seems to be getting a boost from the administration by itself.
 
OG_Original Gamer said:
The Bush administration is so flawed, they need to get rid of Wolfowitz. It has no integrity at all, if Bush is re-elected, expect the draft to return.

... and maybe for John Titor to be regarded as a legit ;)
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
Seriously, how could you NOT want to re-elect this man into presidency? It's unfathomable.
 
Seriously.... if we don't torture people to get information, then what's the fucking point?


I'm glad he did and anyone who thinks he's inhumane.... Go fucking live in Iraq or Saudi Arabi for a few weeks then complain about it.
 

maharg

idspispopd
GuntherBait said:
Seriously.... if we don't torture people to get information, then what's the fucking point?


I'm glad he did and anyone who thinks he's inhumane.... Go fucking live in Iraq or Saudi Arabi for a few weeks then complain about it.

Keeping it to a practical level, confessions and information given under duress are not reliable. A person who's under torture will say anything to get out of that torture. And the thing that usually gets them out of that torture is exactly what the torturing person wants to hear, which is useless.
 

pestul

Member
maharg said:
Keeping it to a practical level, confessions and information given under duress are not reliable. A person who's under torture will say anything to get out of that torture. And the thing that usually gets them out of that torture is exactly what the torturing person wants to hear, which is useless.
Not to mention in many cases you could be torturing a completely innocent human being..
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
pestul said:
Not to mention in many cases you could be torturing a completely innocent human being..
maharg said:
Keeping it to a practical level, confessions and information given under duress are not reliable. A person who's under torture will say anything to get out of that torture. And the thing that usually gets them out of that torture is exactly what the torturing person wants to hear, which is useless.

SHuT TEh FUCK UP & LIVE IN IRAK THEN U"LL UNDRSTAND! VOTE BUSH
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
GuntherBait said:
Seriously.... if we don't torture people to get information, then what's the fucking point?


I'm glad he did and anyone who thinks he's inhumane.... Go fucking live in Iraq or Saudi Arabi for a few weeks then complain about it.
Would it have been acceptable to torture Tim McVey and Terri Nichols to see if there where other similar plots in development/who else might have been involved?

Perhaps this has just a bit to do with their being mulsim/arab.
 
GuntherBait said:
Seriously.... if we don't torture people to get information, then what's the fucking point?


I'm glad he did and anyone who thinks he's inhumane.... Go fucking live in Iraq or Saudi Arabi for a few weeks then complain about it.

It's not just the torture. As other posters have pointed out, it's the US's proclaimed moral high ground that irritates some. Rhetoric comes out of the government tying to make the US look like it has the moral high ground while at the same time the government tries to legitamize torture. Bush has repeatedly tried to make things into good vs evil events, and it is galling that the President would pick and chose what is right and wrong. Looks like hypocrisy to me.
 

darscot

Member
GuntherBait said:
Seriously.... if we don't torture people to get information, then what's the fucking point?


I'm glad he did and anyone who thinks he's inhumane.... Go fucking live in Iraq or Saudi Arabi for a few weeks then complain about it.


Wow that is some ass backwards logic. Any one that is for him doing this should go live in Iraq. When they bomb the building you live in drag your ass to some prison and beat you to death. All because the guy upstair was a nut or terrorist. Then well see how you like it.
 

demon

I don't mean to alarm you but you have dogs on your face
The Chosen One said:
Yikes...

I'm surprised this story isn't getting bigger play in the media.
waiting for the Daily Show....
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
The Chosen One said:
Yikes...

I'm surprised this story isn't getting bigger play in the media.
well stacks of documents just got released yesterday. The AP story has been the first to break. CNN is just a blurb with an offsite link and MSNBCs link isn't even working yet, though it is front page. EDIT:MSNBC link is working now.

This is just starting.

edit2: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5259200/
 

Triumph

Banned
The fundamental problem with Bush is that, like Nixon, he believes that if THE PRESIDENT does it or allows it, it is not illegal. He believes, in his smug arrogance, that he is above it all.

Just like Nixon, he will be in for a horrible surprise. I doubt Bush would ever resign the Presidency- he is a man of CONVICTION, after all. I almost want Bush to win this November, just so he can be the first sitting President impeached, tried and thrown in jail alongside his hellish creations Ashcroft, Rummy and Cheney. You would think that would spell the end of the modern Republican party and the idiotic neo-con movement, but I'm just not so sure. There are so many mouth breathers out there....

Finally, I'll leave you with this:

bush_election_horsemen.jpg
 
Wow.

You guys are too slack on the terrorists of the world. The ponit of torture is to make that human being understand that their life can end at the click of a trigger if they don't give up the information they know.


You say the info they give out is useless? Maybe... but I bet it's better than 50/50 each time.

Besides.... the musilms of this world are going to fuck it for the rest of us people because they believe in something that at it's root is violence. Screw there asses into the ground, put a bullet in their child's head, fucking kill them until they can't breath....

This is of course, the terrorists that do things in the name of their "holy" god "allah". Fuck'em. The US Army is ready.
 

bionic77

Member
GuntherBait said:
Wow.

You guys are too slack on the terrorists of the world. The ponit of torture is to make that human being understand that their life can end at the click of a trigger if they don't give up the information they know.


You say the info they give out is useless? Maybe... but I bet it's better than 50/50 each time.

Besides.... the musilms of this world are going to fuck it for the rest of us people because they believe in something that at it's root is violence. Screw there asses into the ground, put a bullet in their child's head, fucking kill them until they can't breath....

This is of course, the terrorists that do things in the name of their "holy" god "allah". Fuck'em. The US Army is ready.

You truly are an idiot. Torturing people is not a reliable way of gettin accurate information, it's only use is to indulge the evil fantasies of worthless fuckers such as yourself. I always hear how America is so much more civilized then Arabs and other poor 3rd world countries and they use evidence of how they rejoice at tragedy in America, this just shows we are no better then they are as we have totally worthless people such as yourself to drag us down to their level.
 
“I accept the legal conclusion of the attorney general and the Department of Justice that I have the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva as between the United States and Afghanistan, but I decline to exercise that authority at this time,” the president said in the memo, titled “Humane Treatment of al-Qaida and Taliban Detainees.”

That's the quote from the msnbc article. More fair, but still scary that he thinks he has the power to do that.
 

darscot

Member
LOL, GuntherBait your a classic! You fell out of the idiot tree and hit every branch on the way day. Only to bust open your melon at the bottom on the stupid rock.
 

bob_arctor

Tough_Smooth
Well, Gunther, you've scared the hell outta me. Good job.

As an aside, I *kinda* agree w/ you that many ppl are quick to dismiss torture as outright ineffective. The thing is, as fanatical and violent as you claim terrorists and/or Muslims are, wouldn't torture simply be another chance at martyrdom? That is, sit and take it w/o so much of a mention of the weather, let alone some diabolical scheme involving human bombs, etc., etc.?
 

sc0la

Unconfirmed Member
GuntherBait said:
Wow.

You guys are too slack on the terrorists of the world. The ponit of torture is to make that human being understand that their life can end at the click of a trigger if they don't give up the information they know.
The point of torture is rarely to get them to understand that they can be killed at any moment. They know they can die, they know they might. Torture gets the victim to wish for death, not fear it. It is one of the worst conventions created by a human mind.

GuntherBait said:
Besides.... the musilms of this world are going to fuck it for the rest of us people because they believe in something that at it's root is violence. Screw there asses into the ground, put a bullet in their child's head, fucking kill them until they can't breath....
You are truly a sick and sad person. Their childern? WTF did the child do other than have the misfortune of being born to the wrong person. The only thing with violene at its core here is torture, blanketing an entire religion is likely to get someone to think you are stupid.

its probably a bit late for that though.
 

Ripclawe

Banned
serious spinning by the AP, par for the course. I am okay with Bush claiming the right to suspend geneva.

Bush had agreed in February 2002 that al-Qaida and Taliban prisoners at Guantanamo Bay were not protected by the Geneva Conventions on prisoners of war because they violated the laws of war themselves.

Bush's previously secret Feb. 7, 2002, order also agrees with Justice and Pentagon lawyers that a president can ignore U.S. law and treaties.

"I accept the legal conclusion of the Attorney General and the Department of Justice that I have the authority to suspend Geneva (conventions) as between the United States and Afghanistan," Bush wrote. "I reserve the right to exercise this authority in this or future conflicts."

but yesterday

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm.../20040622/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_prisoner_abuse_16

Bush outlined his own views in a Feb. 7. 2002, document regarding treatment of al-Qaida detainees from Afghanistan. He said the war against terrorism had ushered in a "new paradigm" and that terrorist attacks required "new thinking in the law of war." Still, he said prisoners must be treated humanely and in accordance with the Geneva Conventions.


"I accept the legal conclusion of the attorney general and the Department of Justice (news - web sites) that I have the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva as between the United States and Afghanistan, but I decline to exercise that authority at this time," the president said in the memo, entitled "Humane Treatment of al-Qaida and Taliban Detainees."

Then we have Rumsfeld where CNN had the big scoop he had ordered water boarding! BUT WAIT!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/22/prisoner.memos/index.html

In that memo, then-Assistant Attorney General Jay Bybee wrote, "We conclude that torture as defined ... covers only extreme acts. Severe pain is generally of the kind difficult for the victim to endure."

Critics said that memo could be interpreted as opening the door to mistreatment of prisoners, a position disputed by the Justice Department.

But one senior Justice Department official said the memo "contributed to public confusion over the the policy," adding that it would be replaced. Even as they disavowed the memo, Justice Department officials said they stood behind the legal conclusions that the Geneva Conventions were not applicable.

Meanwhile, a source told CNN that Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld never approved a controversial interrogation technique called "water boarding." That source had told CNN the opposite Monday.

The senior defense official who provided the original information to CNN now says Rumsfeld only approved "mild, noninjurious physical contact" with a high-level al Qaeda detainee at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and specifically did not approve a request to use water boarding.

Some nice editing by the AP between today and yesterday, but nothing else.
 

bionic77

Member
Ripclawe said:
serious spinning by the AP, par for the course. I am okay with Bush claiming the right to suspend geneva.



but yesterday

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm.../20040622/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_prisoner_abuse_16



Then we have Rumsfeld where CNN had the big scoop he had ordered water boarding! BUT WAIT!

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/06/22/prisoner.memos/index.html



Some nice editing by the AP between today and yesterday, but nothing else.

Why exactly do you think that we shouldn't honor the Geneva convention?

This should be good.
 

Kuramu

Member
bionic77 said:
Why exactly do you think that we shouldn't honor the Geneva convention?

This should be good.


Administration lawyers argued that terrorists were not entitled to protections of the Geneva Conventions, the series of international treaties that govern the treatment of prisoners of war. President Bush accepted that argument, declaring that detainees from the war in Afghanistan, who were held at the base in Cuba, were "illegal combatants," not prisoners of war. But he wrote that all detainees should be treated humanely, regardless of their status.

"I accept the legal conclusion of the attorney general and the Department of Justice that I have the authority under the Constitution to suspend Geneva as between the United States and Afghanistan, but I decline to exercise that authority at this time," the president said in the memo, titled "Humane Treatment of al-Qaida and Taliban Detainees."
 

Eminem

goddamit, Griese!
You know what I find more shocking than this, is that here at GAF people get more upset about Bush claiming "Right to Waive Torture Laws" than Americans being burned, mutilated and hung like slaughtered sheep.

cooked3.jpg

hanging.jpg


oh, that's part of the war, it happens. BUT BUSH CLAIMED THE RIGHT TO WAIVE TORTURE LAWS??? HUMANITY IS DOOMED.

or wait, I'll quote an actual response: "There really is no hope for humanity."


Jesus. If torture can somehow stop THAT^ (and I'm not saying it can/will), then go for it. But I guess a lot of you would rather see more beheaded and mutilated American corpses, so long as Bush doesn't torture anyone.
 

human5892

Queen of Denmark
Eminem said:
If torture can somehow stop THAT^ (and I'm not saying it can/will), then go for it. But I guess a lot of you would rather see more beheaded and mutilated American corpses, so long as Bush doesn't torture anyone.
Two wrongs don't make a right, and torturing random Iraqi prisoners sure as hell has nothing to do with Americans who were unfortunately killed in duty -- by your own admission, even! So why stoop to their level?

Just because nobody talked about killed Americans in this thread yet doesn't mean no one cares about them. But that's not what the subject at hand is right now.
 

pestul

Member
You seem to be missing the simple point that no one life is worth more than another.. and not all the detainees are even linked to these atrocities. Unless you somehow trust your governments intelligence again.
 

Bregor

Member
GuntherBait said:
Wow.

You guys are too slack on the terrorists of the world. The ponit of torture is to make that human being understand that their life can end at the click of a trigger if they don't give up the information they know.


You say the info they give out is useless? Maybe... but I bet it's better than 50/50 each time.

Besides.... the musilms of this world are going to fuck it for the rest of us people because they believe in something that at it's root is violence. Screw there asses into the ground, put a bullet in their child's head, fucking kill them until they can't breath....

This is of course, the terrorists that do things in the name of their "holy" god "allah". Fuck'em. The US Army is ready.

I bet you would admit to terrorist acts after being tortured for a while. In fact, I bet you would admit to anything almost immediately.

Torturing information out of someone doesn't show that they are terrorists. It only shows that they are desperate for the suffering to end. Do you also say "Fuck'em" to all the innocent people who confessed under the pressure of torture?
 
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