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[KojiKnight]

Who are we to care whether its dumb or not? They can run themselves into the ground for all we have control over.
Let me remind you nome of us are speaking in their interests first when we bring up stupid or smart business moves.
The point is they made it and they own it.
They have 0 reasons to care for ps4, pc, ps3 or streamers and whatever it is they do. They have no obligation to ensure streamers keep their channels healthy.
Is it in their best interests? I would think so. But thats my opinion.
No matter how stupid their reasons are they cannot be petty because they have 100 percent ownership of their works and regardless i or you want from them, its their call.

If i own something i have every right to decide whether or not i let somebody else tinkers with it without being petty.
This isn't some cancer drug theyre keeping to themselves, there is no debatable morality here. Its a commercial product for enthusiasts and if they feel its okay for them to restrict it to a specific then thats that.

Actually, no they don't. Legal predecent is against them. The name of their game and images are fair use. This has been tested in court in the case against Bleem! and the court sided with them. It's disgusting that a big company is bullying them out of their legal rights just because defending themselves would be costly. Far far less costly than the Bleem! fight (since they will have precedent) but still it could be hard to get their legal fees back.

 

[MetalliCabombination]

No, it's not on their best interests, and you have no arguments to back it up.
No, you do not have right to shit if you sell something comercially and someone wants to use a product they bought in a way you don't approve. This shit wouldn't stand legally.

According to actual laws and legal precedents, no, they do not have the right to do this.

Im saying its irrelevant what their best interests lie in as long as they dont want to do it.
If they think its not positive for them to have their products endorsing what is essentially a product built upon the foundation of unauthorized exploitation of system vulnerabilities then they damn well can can choose to make their calls

 

[MUnited83]

Im saying its irrelevant what their best interests lie in as long as they dont want to do it.
If they dont think its not positive for them to have their products endorsing what is essentially a product built upon the foundation of unauthorized exploitation of system vulnerabilities then they damn well can can choose to make their calls

Legally, they can't, actually, no matter how much you believe otherwise.

also " product built upon the foundation of unauthorized exploitation of system vulnerabilities" ? Do you have no idea how emulator development actually works?

 

[2blackcats]

If Atlus care about piracy that much, they would cancel the PS3 version altogether.

Or are you not aware that PS3 is a heaven for piracy?

I really don't think that's a great system of dealing with piracy. Imagine how few games would have released on the DS.

 

[Lain]

Sorry, I'm not being purposely stupid, just regular. But I've no idea what you're trying saying.

Emulation doesn't mean piracy.

There was even a rule on GAF where equating emulation to piracy meant a ban a long time ago.

 

[Foffy]

Um, what?

Piracy is surely the only reason Atlus have taken an interest.

Edit :I probably missed a meeting.

I don't think it's piracy, as, unless I am wrong, it's likely cheaper and easier to hack a PS3 and just download the game than invest in a fancy pancy PC, set up all of the stuff an emulator needs -- usually high-end ones require actual dumped files that don't come with the emulator, so I'm unsure if RPCS3 is one of these -- and hope the game works.

I think the bigger issue here is Atlus wants people to buy the PS4 game. It's a bad look knowing emulators took the weaker version on PS3 and are making it the definitive version to play with better framerates, just as a start. I think that's a deeper issue than straight up piracy, as again, for cost purposes it's probably better to just get it on an actually hacked PS3.

Think of it this way. In a year, Persona 5 will likely be 1:1 in terms of emulation compatibility and run at 60fps with potential 4k support in RPCS3 and you're stuck with 1080p and 30fps forever on PS4. Where will diehards go?

 

[Sad Affleck]

They do not? Legit question, I always thought emulation was always at the very least a very grey area.

No, they do not. Emulation is legal as long as no copyright is being violated.

 

[KojiKnight]

They do not? Legit question, I always thought emulation was always at the very least a very grey area.

Two days after Bleem! started taking preorders for their emulator, Sony filed suit against them alleging that they were violating their rights and that providing access for PlayStation games to run on non-Sony hardware constituted unfair competition.[3]
Ultimately Bleem! won in court and a protective order was issued to "protect David from Goliath".[1] Sony lost on all counts, including Bleem!'s use of screenshots of PlayStation games on its packaging. The court noted that Bleem!'s use of copyrighted screenshots was considered fair use and should be allowed to continue.
Despite the legal victories, the legal fees allegedly forced the company out of business. eBay auctions of some of the company's possessions were held soon after - including a huge library of worldwide game releases apparently used for compatibility testing.

Pretty blatantly clear that Atlus has zero leg to stand on.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Um, what?

Piracy is surely the only reason Atlus have taken an interest.

Edit :I probably missed a meeting.

If people want to discuss their belief that Atlus is concerned with piracy, that is of course fine, and that could quite possibly be what's going on here, although they'd be on flimsy legal ground.

If people want to call emulators piracy or make insinuations that people who use emulators are all pirates, that isn't. GAF allows and will continue to allow emulator discussion and it is extremely frustrating for everyone who uses emulators -- especially, again, since we're talking about an emulator for a dead system whose successor has no backwards compatibility -- to get told they're pirates or to have threads about emulation become about people having to prove they're not pirates. It is a totally unproductive line of inquiry. This is not a thread about what you or I or anyone else thinks of people using emulators.

 

[shiyrley]

Are the people defending this aware of what a fucking compatibility list is?

It's text. It's text about a legal emulator ruinning a game.

Text.

I can understand forcing them to remove the images and/or videos. But to remove the game from the compatibility list completely? Again: It's fucking TEXT. Imagine if ATLUS made me remove a Persona 5 mention from one of my posts. It's ridiculous. I don't think it's legal even.

Also I will present you people with two facts that won't change regardless of your opinion or your level of salt.
- Emulation is legal
- Emulation discussion is allowed on GAF.

Stop.

 

[MetalliCabombination]

Legally, they can't, actually, no matter how much you believe otherwise.

Stop acting like you know the ins and outs of the entire legality of digital and ip right in 2017 just because theres a reference of a decades old case. The world has changed a fuck ton since then. This isnt a black and white scenario.

Not to mention, this was about them being petty. I never brought up the legality.

 

[snap]

i think the argument of "well it has nothing to do with them not liking pc they just don't want you to pirate the game" falls completely flat because if they bothered to release the game for pc, the amount of people pirating it to run in an emulator would collapse completely and they'd gain a bunch of sales in the process.

i think this is entirely the same Atlus JP stupidity as trying to kill twitch streams of the end parts of the game and blocking game recording. and the "we already finished all of the DLC but we're still going to spread it out over months so by the time the one you want is out you've already beaten the game" bs. and the japanese VO stuff, tho thankfully they folded on that. and the constant promises of a US launch close to the JP launch only for it to be half a year later.

god they're lucky the game is so great otherwise nobody would put up with any of this.

Are the people defending this aware of what a fucking compatibility list is?

It's text. It's text about a legal emulator ruinning a game which.

Text.

I can understand forcing them to remove the images and/or videos. But to remove the game from the compatibility list completely? Again: It's fucking TEXT. Imagine if ATLUS made me remove a Persona 5 mention from one of my posts. It's ridiculous. I don't think it's legal even.

ATLUS is almost certainly in the wrong here, but they're the only ones willing to actually take this to court (even if it's likely they'll lose) so folding to their demands is the course that will be followed.

 

[CSX]

So how far was the game working on the emulator? 100% playable from beginning to end with no crashes and little to no glitches?

Regardless, Atlus comes out looking petty as hell. I guess the devs can just have it listed on their site as "that game" or something lol

 

[Acidote]

Ok, they've managed to get me interested in RPCS3. I think I'll give it a try later today, and I'm gonna start looking for the RPSC3 thread now.

 

[Chainsawkitten]

So how far was the game working on the emulator? 100% playable from beginning to end with no crashes and little to no glitches?

Regardless, Atlus comes out looking petty as hell. I guess the devs can just have it listed on their site as "that game" or something lol

They say you can play it from beginning to finish. But now this post contains the information a compatibility list would so Atlus should probably sue NeoGaf to get this taken down. Oops.

 

[Alexander DeLarge]

Good luck with that. PC users are going to play this game one way or another so why not at least cash in?

can't say I have a problem with this

You should considering emulation is a completely legitimate, legal practice and I don't think any game should become unplayable because the hardware doesn't exist anymore. The PC is the platform for longevity and without it, the content made for these systems is only accessible for as long as the hardware is available.

 

[CookTrain]

They say you can play it from beginning to finish. But now this post contains the information a compatibility list would so Atlus should probably sue NeoGaf to get this taken down. Oops.

At this point, wouldn't be surprised if they weren't weighing it up

 

[Persona7]

I really regret giving this company money for that piece of shit game.

 

[shiyrley]

Good luck with that. PC users are going to play this game one way or another so why not at least cash in?

B-but the PC is an evil platform!

I mean, they can stream the whole game! We can't limit it! Do you know how evil that is?

 

[2blackcats]

If people want to discuss their belief that Atlus is concerned with piracy, that is of course fine, and that could quite possibly be what's going on here, although they'd be on flimsy legal ground.

If people want to call emulators piracy or make insinuations that people who use emulators are all pirates, that isn't. GAF allows and will continue to allow emulator discussion and it is extremely frustrating for everyone who uses emulators -- especially, again, since we're talking about an emulator for a dead system whose successor has no backwards compatibility -- to get told they're pirates or to have threads about emulation become about people having to prove they're not pirates. It is a totally unproductive line of inquiry. This is not a thread about what you or I or anyone else thinks of people using emulators.

I may have misunderstood what's going on. I assumed the only reason they were taking an interest was piracy. I failed to take in to account that the PS3 version is cheaper as mentioned a few posts above.

I most certainly don't equate emulation to piracy.

Sorry.

 

[MUnited83]

Stop acting like you know the ins and outs of the entire legality of digital and ip right in 2017 just because theres a reference of a decades old case. The world has changed a fuck ton since then. This isnt a black and white scenario.

Not to mention, this was about them being petty. I never brought up the legality.

You said it was their right. Which, well, literally isn't.

 

[shiyrley]

A question: Considering SEGA owns them, could SEGA, if they wanted, port the game to PC completely ignoring ATLUS's opinion on the matter?

 

[crazysapertonight]

Don't know why they would do it, if only they are not going to port this game to PC.
If everybody interested already played it on emulator it will hit sales numbers.

Or they really hate PC as gaming platform.

 

[wazoo]

A question: Considering SEGA owns them, could SEGA, if they wanted, port the game to PC completely ignoring ATLUS's opinion on the matter?

no, they have autonomy.

 

[MetalliCabombination]

You said it was their right. Which, well, literally isn't.

So say if isis tomorrow uses cod footage to slap ads all over the internet to recruit people, will Activision be petty if they act against it?
Not equating emulation to terrorism but the legal grounds are there no?
Like i said, you cant use a decades old ruling to instantly judge something this grey.
And regarding your previous edit, i hope you realize most emulators use the console bios which is literally owned by the console owner and is literally obtained through unauthorized means. You can't dump a bios from a vanilla untouched console natively.

 

[GhostTrick]

A question: Considering SEGA owns them, could SEGA, if they wanted, port the game to PC completely ignoring ATLUS's opinion on the matter?

You mean, the same SEGA who's only branch doing PC stuff is SEGA Europe ?
The same SEGA who decided after Valkyria Chronicles amazing sales on PC to release thr Valkyria spin off even on Xbox One but PC ?

SEGA Europe already has a lot of troubles to make SEGA Japan allow them to port a game per year.

 

[Sini]

So say if isis tomorrow uses cod footage to slap ads all over the internet to recruit people, will Activision be petty if they act against it?
Not equating piracy to terrorism but the legal grounds are there no?

How do you take ISIS to court?
Just asking,

Spoiler

and I just realized you didn't really specify what the acting against them means.

 

[MetalliCabombination]

How do you take ISIS to court?
Just asking

Tbh were at point where open nazi protests are encouraged so who knows maybe isis becomes a taxpaying registered organization at this rate lol.
But lets keep this discussion to the off topic forums.

Acting against would mean getting the ads pulled down.

 

[wazoo]

SEGA Europe already has a lot of troubles to make SEGA Japan allow them to port a game per year.

Even Capcom US has an history to defend PC ports one after the other.

 

[GhostTrick]

Even Capcom US has an history to defend PC ports one after the other.

?
What do you mean ?

 

[Frumix]

So say if isis tomorrow uses cod footage to slap ads all over the internet to recruit people, will Activision be petty if they act against it?
Not equating emulation to terrorism but the legal grounds are there no?
Like i said, you cant use a decades old ruling to instantly judge something this grey.
And regarding your previous edit, i hope you realize most emulators use the console bios which is literally owned by the console owner and is literally obtained through unauthorized means. You can't dump a bios from a vanilla untouched console natively.

This is Godwin's Law, right? What am I reading?
Also, wrong about BIOS. Most of the time.

 

[wazoo]

?
What do you mean ?

What is not clear ? A few of the PC ports we obtained were not obvious to Capcom Japan. Look back to Capcom community manager on capcom boards for info.

 

[MUnited83]

So say if isis tomorrow uses cod footage to slap ads all over the internet to recruit people, will Activision be petty if they act against it?
Not equating piracy to terrorism but the legal grounds are there no?
Like i said, you cant using a decades old ruling to instantly judge something this grey.
And regarding your previous edit, i hope you realize most emulators use the console bios which is literally owned by the console owner and is literally obtained through unauthorized means. You can dump a bios from a vanilla untouched console natively.

Jesus Christ. That is not only one of the most terrible, dumbest comparisons I ever read: there is nothing to your argument to begin with. RPCS3 isn't recruiting pirates. There is no mention of piracy anyone. There is zero legal grounds here. And no, it's not grey at all. You think if it were, Nintendo would allow CEMU to exist? They are one of the most trigger happy companies there is. Yet they have done nothing against it.
RPCS3 does not use any bios. And emulators that use BIOS... Well, companies literally do not own the individual BIOS of someone's console. This is why people can legally dump and use their own.
"Unauthorised means" means, well, jackshit. It had been legally proven in court that you have the right to tinker, unlock, extract, etc from the hardware you own.

 

[funkystudent]

They where practically using p5 as their mascot. Personally 5 was everywhere on the site.


Can't blame atlus here.

 

[wazoo]

Dolphin was using wii bios (for sound) for a very long time without difficulties.

Also Dolphin is totally tolerated by Nintendo.

 

[wazoo]

They where practically using p5 as their mascot. Personally 5 was everywhere on the site.


Can't blame atlus here.

That is because this is one of the rare recent ps3 games not available on PC.

I did not checked but Red Dead Redemption could also pushed there ?

 

[mieumieu]

Japanese laws may be different but what do I know... I only know there's no image on any JP language Wikipedia game entries.

 

[BasilZero]

The reason why they did this is because they...

Spoiler

are preparing for a PC port of Persona 5!!!!!

Spoiler

/s

Everyone knows Atlus hates PC gaming as much as Valve hates the number 3

 

[duckroll]

So say if isis tomorrow uses cod footage to slap ads all over the internet to recruit people, will Activision be petty if they act against it?
Not equating emulation to terrorism but the legal grounds are there no?
Like i said, you cant use a decades old ruling to instantly judge something this grey.
And regarding your previous edit, i hope you realize most emulators use the console bios which is literally owned by the console owner and is literally obtained through unauthorized means. You can't dump a bios from a vanilla untouched console natively.

Tbh were at point where open nazi protests are encouraged so who knows maybe isis becomes a taxpaying registered organization at this rate lol.
But lets keep this discussion to the off topic forums.

Acting against would mean getting the ads pulled down.

 

[MUnited83]

Japanese laws may be different but what do I know... I only know there's no image on any JP language Wikipedia game entries.

Japanese law is 100% irrelevant. The site isn't hosted in Japan.

 

[gngf123]

Dolphin was using wii bios (for sound) for a very long time without difficulties.

Also Dolphin is totally tolerated by Nintendo.

Dolphin to my knowledge never shipped with a Wii bios for sound, but one was recommended to be used because Dolphin at the time had awful sound emulation out of the box.

 

[kewlmyc]

Funny how all of this could have been avoided if Atlus JP didn't treat their western fan base as an afterthought. I wonder what would need to happen for that to change. A title of theirs flop in Japan but do super well in the west. Don't see that happening though.

 

[Eusis]

You mean, the same SEGA who's only branch doing PC stuff is SEGA Europe ?
The same SEGA who decided after Valkyria Chronicles amazing sales on PC to release thr Valkyria spin off even on Xbox One but PC ?

SEGA Europe already has a lot of troubles to make SEGA Japan allow them to port a game per year.

Yeah, I'd imagine if Sega were to have dedicated resources for porting to PC and made them available to Atlus they'd PROBABLY take it and not even be forced into it (though they probably would be dumb about DRM or delay it to avoid streaming before some arbitrary time because they don't have a fucking clue) but SEGA themselves need to wise up to PC support of Japanese games first.

 

[Earthpainting]

Since it's Atlus, it's probably more because they have a raging hard-on for anti-consumer practices, rather than being concerned about piracy. They're the publisher that region lock games on otherwise region-free systems, they try to police streamers, etc. Honestly can't wait to see where they make their mark next? Maybe they'll disable analogue control, while still forcing you to use the sticks? Perhaps use a Boktai-esque light sensor and prevent you from playing a game in the dark? Maybe they'll decide their games aren't made to be played on weekends? The possibilities are endless.

Anyway, I had no idea PS3 emulation was coming along this well. I was worried the increasing architecture complexity would grind the progress of emulation to a halt. Good to see it seems to be in good hands.

 

[wazoo]

Dolphin to my knowledge never shipped with a Wii bios for sound, but one was recommended to be used because Dolphin at the time had awful sound emulation out of the box.

I did not say that. On their wiki, I think, they explained how to dump the rom.

Anyway, now they have their own internal rom.

 

[Huge Succeeded]

You know it’s possible to talk on the internet without sounding like a complete dickhead, right?

Why the fuck you lying

 

[MetalliCabombination]

Jesus Christ. That is not only one of the most terrible, dumbest comparisons I ever read: there is nothing to your argument to begin with. RPCS3 isn't recruiting pirates. There is no mention of piracy anyone. There is zero legal grounds here. And no, it's not grey at all. You think if it were, Nintendo would allow CEMU to exist? They are one of the most trigger happy companies there is. Yet they have done nothing against it.
RPCS3 does not use any bios. And emulators that use BIOS... Well, companies literally do not own the individual BIOS of someone's console. This is why people can legally dump and use their own.
"Unauthorised means" means, well, jackshit. It had been legally proven in court that you have the right to tinker, unlock, extract, etc from the hardware you own.

Since you keep ranting about piracy, which i already edited half a minute into my post, and legality, the only basis of which is an old ass ruling. We have nothing further to discuss.

The thing is rcps3 team does nothing to guarantee that people arent playing their games through illegal means, they cannot. Rcps3 also lets indirectly lets people run modified software, the software which i guarantee you they have no right to unless specifically permitted by software owners(the publisher). So even IF the legality may be flimsy, i have every moral right to keep everything that i own away from said platform and its marketing.

I would be very happy if they didn't object to any of this but but theyre certainly not petty for not wanting people to tinker with their game or using it to market emulators.

 

[Eusis]

Maybe they'll disable analogue control, while still forcing you to use the sticks?

In the sense it lacks true analog movement they DID do that with SMT:N. 8 way control and no granular speed as I recall.

 

[inner-G]

I feel like ATLUS is going so hard to protect that their IP that they're killing themselves.

If people can't stream and do what they want with their games, they're never going to blow up.

If their games don't blow up and make bank, SEGA isn't going to want to keep them around.

 

[charlequin]

Stop acting like you know the ins and outs of the entire legality of digital and ip right in 2017 just because theres a reference of a decades old case. The world has changed a fuck ton since then. This isnt a black and white scenario.

No, as much as many digital content companies still wish otherwise, copyright law is still broadly based on an actual body of functional, concrete law and not on whatever whiny nonsense they made up over breakfast that morning.

no, they have autonomy.

I am very interested to hear what you think this means from a legal perspective.