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[Men_in_Boxes]

What is it about modern filmmaking that makes depression and nihilism the primary emotions that the filmmaker wants to explore?

(Dune, The Sound of Metal, Joker)

(Rocky, Braveheart, Shawshank Redemption)

Now obviously I cherry picked pretty hard here, but I can't be the only one who thinks "real filmmaking" has seen a drastic shift away from themes of hope, optimism, humanity and towards nihilism right? It feels like every movie that appeals to me today must have a mandatory scene of a grown man contemplating suicide with tears in his eyes shot in grey tones. Can someone explain?

 

[Doom85]

Cherry picking as you said. I mean, you put a film with Morgan Freeman in it in the optimistic section, yet that decade he was also in Se7en which is more depressing than Dune or Joker IMHO.

Also, Dune is based on a book from the 60’s. And the Batman comics have been dark since the 70’s so naturally an origin story of his primary villain wasn’t going to be upbeat. Doesn’t really make sense to count them as examples of modern stories being nihilistic if they’re stories or inspired from stories decades ago.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Cherry picking as you said. I mean, you put a film with Morgan Freeman in it in the optimistic section, yet that decade he was also in Se7en which is more depressing than Dune or Joker IMHO.

Also, Dune is based on a book from the 60’s. And the Batman comics have been dark since the 70’s so naturally an origin story of his primary villain wasn’t going to be upbeat. Doesn’t really make sense to count them as examples of modern stories being nihilistic if they’re stories or inspired from stories decades ago.

Where are the great modern movies that explore the light of humanity as much as the darkness of humanity?

Dune can be shot in all different ways. They chose the way of someone who takes Zoloft. For example....

 

[DKehoe]

Everything Everywhere All At Once was quite explicitly hopeful and anti-nihilistic if you're looking for something recent like that.

 

[Bloobs]

Because the world isn't nice

 

[EverythingsOverrated]

Because the world isn't nice

Cherry picking as you said. I mean, you put a film with Morgan Freeman in it in the optimistic section, yet that decade he was also in Se7en which is more depressing than Dune or Joker IMHO.

Basically what I was going to say. The 90's was full of nihilistic films.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Basically what I was going to say. The 90's was full of nihilistic films.

But again I ask, where are todays more optimistic, hope filled "art movies"?

 

[Bloobs]

Budgets man. Making movies aint cheap.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Because the world isn't nice

 

[EverythingsOverrated]

But again I ask, where are todays more optimistic, hope filled "art movies"?

They still exist, but I think the broader issue is the further media consolidation that has made studios more risk averse than AAA gaming studios. So a lot of those types of films don't get picked up for distribution by majors as much as they did 20 years ago and have super limited theatrical runs, or none at all and end up on a random streaming service. Thus nothing but sequels, prequels, remakes, reboots, or spinoffs from the big guys.

 

[Digital-Aftertaste]

colin trevorrow

James gunn

Adam Mckay

glasses and frowns might be a pattern? also fyi these are some of the family fun blockbuster directors.

 

[Crank III]

Everything Everywhere All At Once was quite explicitly hopeful and anti-nihilistic if you're looking for something recent like that.

But that movie wasn't Based!

It wasn't even Sigma!

It was. . . . .

*Poses like a gay Jojo character who is not gay by the way*

....Woke......

 

[lughnasadh123]

Shawshank had some serious fucking depressing themes to it.

 

[SJRB]

Ah yes the cheerful and upbeat Braveheart, Rocky and Shawshank Redemption.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

They still exist, but I think the broader issue is the further media consolidation that has made studios more risk averse than AAA gaming studios. So a lot of those types of films don't get picked up for distribution by majors as much as they did 20 years ago and have super limited theatrical runs, or none at all and end up on a random streaming service. Thus nothing but sequels, prequels, remakes, reboots, or spinoffs from the big guys.

I still go the movie theater from time to time for titles that appeal to me. I just don't feel like the warmer tones of life are explored nearly as much in modern film.

colin trevorrow

James gunn

Adam Mckay

glasses and frowns might be a pattern? also fyi these are some of the family fun blockbuster directors.

I agree that Marvel and DC movies seem to be going for the vibe I'm talking about in a sense. But those theme park rides suck, I'm talking about more serious films.

 

[Melon Husk]

 

[YCoCg]

Shawshank had some serious fucking depressing themes to it.

Nah you're just misremembering it, that part where the old prisoner was released and couldn't adjust to life on the outside so he hung himself, that got a lot of laughs, old swingy we called him!

 

[jason10mm]

I think it is a bit of a trend. Folks are, I think, FAR MORE depressed in the 2020s than they were in the 80s, 90's, even 10's. 9/11, the rise of destructive social media, covid, constant yammering about climate change, increased class warfare, all this stuff is an assault upon the optimism of "the west" and is reflected in the entertainment we choose. Rock music has been stuck in "i'm depressed, you're depressed, we are all depressed together" for DECADES since Nirvana came and ate the lunch of hair metal and rock/pop. The writers of today were raised on anti-depressants, single parent households, told their lives were full of trauma 'cause their private schools weren't the BETTER private schools, on and on. Throw in the current culture war and political schism that seems almost insurmountable and it's pretty understandable, really.

 

[StueyDuck]

I'd say it's mostly that modern writers can't write comedy, so just go all in with the drama.

Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't, movies go in cycles. We are back in the 70s era of horror, exploitation, depression cinema again.

Hopefully we'll shift to the fun blockbuster 80s-90s eras of films and you could argue we slowly are with films like top gun maverick, fall guy, mission impossible and even the lesser films that have done seemingly alright like ministry of ungentlemanly warfare, road house, boy kills world, the bikeriders, twisters and so on.

Doesn't help that alot of them are sequels or reboots

 

[Digital-Aftertaste]

I think it is a bit of a trend. Folks are, I think, FAR MORE depressed in the 2020s than they were in the 80s, 90's, even 10's. 9/11, the rise of destructive social media, covid, constant yammering about climate change, increased class warfare, all this stuff is an assault upon the optimism of "the west" and is reflected in the entertainment we choose. Rock music has been stuck in "i'm depressed, you're depressed, we are all depressed together" for DECADES since Nirvana came and ate the lunch of hair metal and rock/pop. The writers of today were raised on anti-depressants, single parent households, told their lives were full of trauma 'cause their private schools weren't the BETTER private schools, on and on. Throw in the current culture war and political schism that seems almost insurmountable and it's pretty understandable, really.

Social media has certainly changed directors, there have been people that have been able to notice it and even I came to the same conclusion, but sincerity seems to have become a lost art at this point. Compare the Sam Raimi Spiderman movies with the ones that came after and same goes for The Lord Of The Rings trilogies compared to The Hobbit and Rings of Power. A good example of this that "somewhat" recent(over a decade old) is Blue Ruin, its dark and depressing but it has a sense of sincerity that makes it unique. The directors for that movie made films ever since they were kids, also the fact that it was an indie film also helped; the involvement of studios focused on looking at movies as investments doesn't help the issue. Everything else you mentioned also plays a role. James Gunn is one of the directors that has been open about his depression.

 

[BennyBlanco]

In order to be considered a good movie these days you have to make a CINEMATIC SLOW BURN OOZING WITH ATMOSPHERE, brought to you by a24.

I can’t even remember the last movie that was well received and was just a fun movie to watch, like say Terminator 2.

 

[Doom85]

Where are the great modern movies that explore the light of humanity as much as the darkness of humanity?

Dune can be shot in all different ways. They chose the way of someone who takes Zoloft. For example....

The Batman (2022) mostly draws its influence from The Long Halloween comic which generally utilized more muted colors compared to most general superhero comics.

Again, source material is key. As for Dune, I dunno, I can’t claim to have read the book fully (I only managed to read the first half 20 years ago and got bored, ironically I much prefer Part 1 over Part 2 for the new movies), but there are still some very bright shots in Dune.

Like, I don’t know what you’re seeing. In terms of modern blockbusters alone, the MCU is mostly relatively bright and optimistic. DCEU films briefly started much darker due to Zack Snyder’s directing (and he was like that well before he did Man of Steel) but then we got more optimistic stuff like Aquaman and Shazam. Mission Impossible is still mostly a fun thrill ride with only the rare dark moment. Daniel Craig’s Bond is much darker but that started with Casino Royale all the way back in 2006, not exactly “modern”. The modern Planet of the Apes films aren’t really darker than they were before (like, the original second film isn’t going to be topped in how much of a nihilistic downer it is). Modern Godzilla and Kong films, Avatar 2, Dungeons and Dragons: Honor Among Thieves, Jurassic World Dominion, Ghostbusters Afterlife/FE, Top Gun 2, Bullet Train, Sonic the Hedgehog trilogy, Detective Pikachu, Uncharted, etc., none of these seem particularly less hopeful than films from even only a decade ago.

If we’re talking more artsy films, well that should be a given. I don’t remember older artsy films generally being much more upbeat. I mean, Stanley Kubrick is among the most well known directors of those types of films, and I shouldn’t have to elaborate much more than that in terms of him. My favorite director is David Fincher, and I’ve already mentioned Se7en, and most of his other films are very dark or at least not very uplifting (The Game is the only one I remember having a mostly happy ending, but even then it’s a brutal journey to get there, and Girl with the Dragon Tattoo seems to be about to end mostly happy, but again it was a brutal ride up to that point, but hits you with one last minor sucker punch). The Coen Brothers wrote frequently dark films even some of their comedies as Big Lebowski ended on a few positive notes but The Dude does have a rough time getting there and of course poor Donny.

I just think you’re overlooking and/or forgetting a good deal of optimistic films from today and a good deal of darker films from yesterday.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

I just think you’re overlooking and/or forgetting a good deal of optimistic films from today and a good deal of darker films from yesterday.

What are the great modern films of today (not Marvel) that you think utilize the full colorwheel of human emotion? People seem to be bringing up a subplot in Shawshank to suggest it was just as oppressively dark as the films in the first group but it obviously wasn't. Shawshank loved feeding the audience humor and hope throughout its runtime.

I'm surely missing some films of today but I can't think of any. Why can I think of a number of examples from the 50's through the 00's?

 

[Doom85]

I'm surely missing some films of today but I can't think of any. Why can I think of a number of examples from the 50's through the 00's?

In my prior post, I listed a bunch from the last few years alone besides Marvel that are fairly optimistic, upbeat, etc. Like, maybe you think none or barely any of those are great, but your original post was more about a film’s tone and focus, which is much less subjective, versus the supposed quality of a film, which is much more subjective. So I can’t really do much more for you here.

As for the FULL use of all emotions, I dunno, I really can’t claim to focus on a movie needing to capture every tone possible. I’m not saying that can’t be done well, it certainly can, but generally stories, especially for a movie’s runtime, should focus on a select choice of emotional tones rather than attempting to capture all of them (heck, even Inside Out, a movie with LITERAL emotions in it, focuses on Joy and Sadness and their effects on Riley over Anger, Disgust, and Fear). I mentioned The Big Lebowski, it’s obviously very focused on comedy, occasional an occasional somber portrayal of broken people (occasional moments with Walter make it clear he really needs to talk to a professional as he clearly is emotionally unstable at times), and even sadness with the ending with Donny (yes, there’s a funny moment with it, but it still got me and other people sad. Jeff Bridges nailed having The Dude sound completely fed up at first with Walter but then you can hear his voice crack as you realize he’s more upset over the loss they’ve experienced than with Walter’s poor decision-making).

Also, there were plenty of dark moments in Shawshank besides that. Prison rape, corrupt guards murdering inmates, people serving a sentence far longer than they reasonably should have, etc. Yes, it ultimately ends on a happy note for two characters, but they go through a lot of pain and struggle to reach that point.

Plus, if we’re bringing up Shawshank, why is The Batman (2022) nihilistic in comparison? By the end of the film, Batman is seen as a savior by the people of Gotham and is working in daylight working with the rescue teams to assist those in need. Alfred survives. Batman and Catwoman part on good terms. Thomas Wayne is revealed to be innocent. Riddler is behind bars. Penguin has ascended in power but feels unhappy at the moment due to his faith in Falcone having been betrayed. Yes, the protagonists struggle a lot to get there, but it ends generally on a more optimistic note compared to the beginning of the film, just like Shawshank. Heck, I mentioned The Long Halloween comic it was heavily inspired by, that comic, which was released in 1996-1997, ended on much more of a downer than The Batman did. The visual details being darker are there, but they don’t ultimately determine the tone of a story, you could put an episode of Seinfeld through a dark color filter or whatever one would use to do so and it would still ultimately be goofy hijinks with the same characters we’ve always known.

 

[digital_ghost]

Watching alot of woke Hollywood shit makes me depressed. So probably.

 

[jason10mm]

If we are talking about the LOOK of film, with a darker palate, I think a lot of that is the move to digital allowing less set lighting and more natural in camera lighting. Same with dialogue, if you can use a small digital camera and kinda roam around then if you dispense with boom mics and elaborate well lit stages then you end up with darkly lit, muddled dialogue scenes.

Go back to the 40s and 50s and see how they look, the lush technicolor era. Then 60s to 70s with their gritty appearance. Then the grainy but colorful 80's. How much of that is the technical quality of the equipment versus a choice? Every few years we go through a little fashion trend. Heck, netflix films all tend to have a look now, as do the MCU movies. It will be a fun game in 20-30 years to look back and guess who made what.

 

[Doom85]

Go back to the 40s and 50s and see how they look, the lush technicolor era. Then 60s to 70s with their gritty appearance. Then the grainy but colorful 80's.

Yeah, the recent X trilogy nailed this aspect with the decade each film either takes place in or is inspired by: X is set in the 70’s and has that gritty aesthetic, Pearl is set in 1918 but utilizes the Technicolor era, and MaXXXine is set in the 80’s and uses the grainy look (less colorful, but it matches the horror/slasher films of that decade).

 

[jason10mm]

Yeah, the recent X trilogy nailed this aspect with the decade each film either takes place in or is inspired by: X is set in the 70’s and has that gritty aesthetic, Pearl is set in 1918 but utilizes the Technicolor era, and MaXXXine is set in the 80’s and uses the grainy look (less colorful, but it matches the horror/slasher films of that decade).

Those films are dope. Looking forward to MaXXXine on streaming.

 

[Doom85]

Those films are dope. Looking forward to MaXXXine on streaming.

It’s the weakest of the three IMHO (the supporting cast is mostly underutilized, and the antagonist could have been better handled), but I still found it enjoyable due to Mia Goth’s performance and Ti West’s directing.

 

[jason10mm]

It’s the weakest of the three IMHO (the supporting cast is mostly underutilized, and the antagonist could have been better handled), but I still found it enjoyable due to Mia Goth’s performance and Ti West’s directing.

I figure the next one will be the camera 100% focused on Mia as she just reacts to all the stuff around her (that we only hear or see at the edges of the frame) for 90 minutes.

But she got a body, no denying that.

 

[Doom85]

I figure the next one will be the camera 100% focused on Mia as she just reacts to all the stuff around her (that we only hear or see at the edges of the frame) for 90 minutes.

But she got a body, no denying that.

And with zero cuts!

Seriously, that monologue she gives at the end of Pearl is amazing. I wish I could remember how long it went with no cuts, I believe seven minutes or so.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

In my prior post, I listed a bunch from the last few years alone besides Marvel that are fairly optimistic, upbeat, etc. Like, maybe you think none or barely any of those are great, but your original post was more about a film’s tone and focus, which is much less subjective, versus the supposed quality of a film, which is much more subjective. So I can’t really do much more for you here.

Yeah, to me the only productions that I see consistently including positive human emotion to build a more compelling story are the cape**it, Disney/Pixar, and Hallmark specials. It's almost as if warmth has become passe for a certain clique in Hollywood.

As for the FULL use of all emotions, I dunno, I really can’t claim to focus on a movie needing to capture every tone possible. I’m not saying that can’t be done well, it certainly can, but generally stories, especially for a movie’s runtime, should focus on a select choice of emotional tones rather than attempting to capture all of them (heck, even Inside Out, a movie with LITERAL emotions in it, focuses on Joy and Sadness and their effects on Riley over Anger, Disgust, and Fear). I mentioned The Big Lebowski, it’s obviously very focused on comedy, occasional an occasional somber portrayal of broken people (occasional moments with Walter make it clear he really needs to talk to a professional as he clearly is emotionally unstable at times), and even sadness with the ending with Donny (yes, there’s a funny moment with it, but it still got me and other people sad. Jeff Bridges nailed having The Dude sound completely fed up at first with Walter but then you can hear his voice crack as you realize he’s more upset over the loss they’ve experienced than with Walter’s poor decision-making).

When I say "full color wheel of human emotion" I do not literally mean all 742 human emotions. I use language as most humans do, with a bit of figurative license.

Also, there were plenty of dark moments in Shawshank besides that. Prison rape, corrupt guards murdering inmates, people serving a sentence far longer than they reasonably should have, etc. Yes, it ultimately ends on a happy note for two characters, but they go through a lot of pain and struggle to reach that point.

It's not really about counting the number of dark moments in a movie. That's not how you decipher a films tone. Shawshank does a great job of not feeling oppressively bleak throughout its entire runtime despite the themes of the film. It's not just the ending that's optimistic.

Plus, if we’re bringing up Shawshank, why is The Batman (2022) nihilistic in comparison? By the end of the film, Batman is seen as a savior by the people of Gotham and is working in daylight working with the rescue teams to assist those in need. Alfred survives. Batman and Catwoman part on good terms. Thomas Wayne is revealed to be innocent. Riddler is behind bars. Penguin has ascended in power but feels unhappy at the moment due to his faith in Falcone having been betrayed. Yes, the protagonists struggle a lot to get there, but it ends generally on a more optimistic note compared to the beginning of the film, just like Shawshank. Heck, I mentioned The Long Halloween comic it was heavily inspired by, that comic, which was released in 1996-1997, ended on much more of a downer than The Batman did. The visual details being darker are there, but they don’t ultimately determine the tone of a story, you could put an episode of Seinfeld through a dark color filter or whatever one would use to do so and it would still ultimately be goofy hijinks with the same characters we’ve always known.

It doesn't make sense to compare Shawshank to The Batman (2022) when we have a a 60 year history of Batman on screen.

Apparently there have been 16 Batman movies since 1966. Can you tell me which Batman movies you think have a darker, more depressing or nihilistic tone than The Batman (2022)?

 

[jason10mm]

Apparently there have been 16 Batman movies since 1966. Can you tell me which Batman movies you think have a darker, more depressing or nihilistic tone than The Batman (2022)?

I think a lot of this is because we get a lot of Batman origin stories, when it MUST be dark and nihilistic because that is what births him (at least out of the '66 era of the Bright Knight). Alas, few filmmakers are interested in showing Batman WINNING and leaving Gotham a happier place.

 

[AJUMP23]

No more than modern film goers.

 

[FunkMiller]

Never has an OP undercut its own point quite so efficiently.

'Why are film directors miserable now? Why can't they be like they used to?'

*proceeds to quote three old movies with a whole lot of misery in them*

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Never has an OP undercut its own point quite so efficiently.

'Why are film directors miserable now? Why can't they be like they used to?'

*proceeds to quote three old movies with a whole lot of misery in them*

Do you think the first 3 movies had the same level of depression and nihilism in their tone as the second 3 movies?

 

[FunkMiller]

Apparently there have been 16 Batman movies since 1966. Can you tell me which Batman movies you think have a darker, more depressing or nihilistic tone than The Batman (2022)?

At the end of The Batman, Batman has learned that he must be a positive symbol of hope for the people of Gotham, not a negative figure of vengeance.

At the end of The Dark Knight, Batman is a fugitive from the law, with his reputation in pieces, and has lost to The Joker.

Your confusing visual style with narrative content. Reeves takes on a deliberately noir tone for his movie, but to claim his Batman is any more depressing or nihilistic than Nolan's - or certainly Snyder's Captain Murderkill - is a surface level reading, and inaccurate.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

At the end of The Batman, Batman has learned that he must be a positive symbol of hope for the people of Gotham, not a negative figure of vengeance.

At the end of The Dark Knight, Batman is a fugitive from the law, with his reputation in pieces, and has lost to The Joker.

Your confusing visual style with narrative content. Reeves takes on a deliberately noir tone for his movie, but to claim his Batman is any more depressing or nihilistic than Nolan's - or certainly Snyder's Captain Murderkill - is a surface level reading, and inaccurate.

Do people really think the tone of a movie is...it's ending? No way.

I guess Dumb and Dumber had a dark, depressing tone because Harry and Lloyd were left hitchhiking to nowhere. I guess Sesame Street has a dark, depressing tone because no one helps Oscar move out of his garbage can?

Come on, you can't be serious. The visual style serves the tone of the movie.

 

[FunkMiller]

Do people really think the tone of a movie is...it's ending? No way.

Come on, you can't be serious. The visual style serves the tone of the movie.

You started with an OP talking about depressing and nihilistic movies. Those things come out of the narrative and characterisations... not the visual style.

Is your problem just that movies have a darker visual palette these days? Because that's not true, anyway. God knows the reams of MCU movies prove that, if nothing else.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

You started with an OP talking about depressing and nihilistic movies. Those things come out of the narrative and characterisations... not the visual style.

Is your problem just that movies have a darker visual palette these days? Because that's not true, anyway. God knows the reams of MCU movies prove that, if nothing else.

Do you think the first 3 movies explore the same darker emotions at the same rate as the second group of 3 movies?

This is crazy that people can't grasp this. Has dead internet theory already started?

 

[Doom85]

Yeah, to me the only productions that I see consistently including positive human emotion to build a more compelling story are the cape**it, Disney/Pixar, and Hallmark specials. It's almost as if warmth has become passe for a certain clique in Hollywood.

When I say "full color wheel of human emotion" I do not literally mean all 742 human emotions. I use language as most humans do, with a bit of figurative license.

It's not really about counting the number of dark moments in a movie. That's not how you decipher a films tone. Shawshank does a great job of not feeling oppressively bleak throughout its entire runtime despite the themes of the film. It's not just the ending that's optimistic.

It doesn't make sense to compare Shawshank to The Batman (2022) when we have a a 60 year history of Batman on screen.

Apparently there have been 16 Batman movies since 1966. Can you tell me which Batman movies you think have a darker, more depressing or nihilistic tone than The Batman (2022)?

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be difficult about the emotions thing, I do feel I’m wired to sometimes take terminology a little more literally than most would.

Well, I said tone is less subjective, but that doesn’t mean it’s entirely objective. I admit it’s been a while since I saw Shawshank, but I really don’t remember the movie being that optimistic for a good chunk of it. I mean, the whole movie is following a guy imprisoned for a crime he may not have committed in the first place. Ron Perlman’s guard is a consistent dangerous threat and even some inmates are very dangerous. Yes, the protagonist is frequently optimistic and active in trying to make his life better, but that’s frequently checked by Perlman, some other inmates, as well as Morgan Freeman’s sometimes less idealistic view of their situation. I’m not saying it’s fully bleak but I would be lying if I didn’t say I felt sad during a good chunk of the movie. So I’m being genuine when I say without the ending I would not see the film as optimistic especially since the protagonist could be innocent and thus has been incarcerated for a long time unjustly, there’s no feeling good about that IMHO.

There have only been nine live action Batman films (only if we count Batman v Superman, and no, I’m not counting either Justice League, those are ensemble films, or The Flash as Batman is a supporting character in that one). Regardless, I guess The Batman (2022) is the “darkest” visually, but no, it is not darker than The Dark Knight (2008). Batman does not permanently lose a loved one in The Batman. He does not have a strong ally fall into darkness so deep he tries to potentially murder a child. He does not force himself to be branded as a fugitive just to ensure criminals are kept behind bars. And no, I’m not talking about just the ending, some of this tragedy happens in the third act of The Dark Knight. Heck, The Riddler is mostly torturing and killing corrupt assholes in The Batman, whereas Joker captures a Batman-like vigilante who was just trying to stop criminals, tortures him, kills him, and then sends his hanging corpse slamming into the mayor’s window.

Now, I would say The Batman (2022) has a more serious tone than even The Dark Knight does, BUT is a bit more idealistic overall than The Dark Knight overall.

I think you’re letting your interpretation of tone become too factual in your head as opposed to opinion. Again, I bring up The Big Lebowski. Most people laughed at the “funeral” at the end of that movie. But I, and a few others, got a bit teary because we did connect with the characters and felt sad even if a humorous moment occurred during the scene. That doesn’t mean anyone’s view of the scene’s tone (emotional or funny or both) is incorrect. People react to stories in different ways, sometimes affected by their own mood and life experiences.

 

[FunkMiller]

Do you think the first 3 movies explore the same darker emotions at the same rate as the second group of 3 movies?

This is crazy that people can't grasp this. Has dead internet theory already started?

Shawshank deals with themes around suicide, depression, rape, incarceration, institutionalisation, rebellion and have the life crushed out of you.

Braveheart is about betrayal, murder, rape, being conquered, losing, dying for a lost cause and the futility of fighting an enemy far more powerful than you.

Rocky is the 'happiest' one of those three movies, but is still steeped in a backdrop of poverty and the depression of seventies America.

You're trying to make a claim that just isn't true. Movies were just as much about dark, depressing and nihilistic themes as they are now.

 

[pnutboy]

But again I ask, where are todays more optimistic, hope filled "art movies"?

They exist. Didi and Sing Sing come to mind. Also two of the best films of 2024

 

[pnutboy]

Ultimately though, I think film responds to the mood of the culture at large, which has become objectively more depressed over the last decade, at least in the States. I think your observation is correct though, I work in the industry and it’s a conversation they’re having at the studio level.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

Sorry, I wasn’t trying to be difficult about the emotions thing, I do feel I’m wired to sometimes take terminology a little more literally than most would.

Well, I said tone is less subjective, but that doesn’t mean it’s entirely objective. I admit it’s been a while since I saw Shawshank, but I really don’t remember the movie being that optimistic for a good chunk of it. I mean, the whole movie is following a guy imprisoned for a crime he may not have committed in the first place. Ron Perlman’s guard is a consistent dangerous threat and even some inmates are very dangerous. Yes, the protagonist is frequently optimistic and active in trying to make his life better, but that’s frequently checked by Perlman, some other inmates, as well as Morgan Freeman’s sometimes less idealistic view of their situation. I’m not saying it’s fully bleak but I would be lying if I didn’t say I felt sad during a good chunk of the movie. So I’m being genuine when I say without the ending I would not see the film as optimistic especially since the protagonist could be innocent and thus has been incarcerated for a long time unjustly, there’s no feeling good about that IMHO.

There have only been nine live action Batman films (only if we count Batman v Superman, and no, I’m not counting either Justice League, those are ensemble films, or The Flash as Batman is a supporting character in that one). Regardless, I guess The Batman (2022) is the “darkest” visually, but no, it is not darker than The Dark Knight (2008). Batman does not permanently lose a loved one in The Batman. He does not have a strong ally fall into darkness so deep he tries to potentially murder a child. He does not force himself to be branded as a fugitive just to ensure criminals are kept behind bars. And no, I’m not talking about just the ending, some of this tragedy happens in the third act of The Dark Knight. Heck, The Riddler is mostly torturing and killing corrupt assholes in The Batman, whereas Joker captures a Batman-like vigilante who was just trying to stop criminals, tortures him, kills him, and then sends his hanging corpse slamming into the mayor’s window.

Now, I would say The Batman (2022) has a more serious tone than even The Dark Knight does, BUT is a bit more idealistic overall than The Dark Knight overall.

I think you’re letting your interpretation of tone become too factual in your head as opposed to opinion. Again, I bring up The Big Lebowski. Most people laughed at the “funeral” at the end of that movie. But I, and a few others, got a bit teary because we did connect with the characters and felt sad even if a humorous moment occurred during the scene. That doesn’t mean anyone’s view of the scene’s tone (emotional or funny or both) is incorrect. People react to stories in different ways, sometimes affected by their own mood and life experiences.

It's so foreign to me how you and FunkMiller are classifying tone.

I would never in a million years consider tabulating plot points to quantify a films tone. It's much more about vibe and feel through the use of color pallet, sound, music, direction etc... The presence of a dark event in a movie has limited (not non existent) impact on the movies tone. Again, I don't consider Dumb and Dumber to have a dark tone despite themes of rape, physical violence, kidnapping, jealousy, loneliness incompetence etc... That's not how tone is measured.

It's like saying the tone of Pumped Up Kicks by Foster the People is dark and brooding because the lyrics are about a homicidal youth. In reality, they play this song in coffee shops to keep customers there longer. IE: The tone is pleasant despite its "plot points".

I found the tone of 2022's The Batman was way darker than any Batman before. The Riddler gave off legit serial killer vibes and we've never seen Batman portrayed like a "freak" as Pattinson said.

Shawshank deals with themes around suicide, depression, rape, incarceration, institutionalisation, rebellion and have the life crushed out of you.

Braveheart is about betrayal, murder, rape, being conquered, losing, dying for a lost cause and the futility of fighting an enemy far more powerful than you.

Rocky is the 'happiest' one of those three movies, but is still steeped in a backdrop of poverty and the depression of seventies America.

You're trying to make a claim that just isn't true. Movies were just as much about dark, depressing and nihilistic themes as they are now.

So you felt, outside of Rocky, the tone from the top 3 movies matched the tone of the bottom 3 movies at exactly the same rate? They had exactly the same amount of hope, optimism, bravery, humor etc...?

How does that work?

 

[chokotoureiki]

Bc they're political activists that are too preoccupied with social injustice and somehow feel the need to express it in their films. That's all I'm gonna say on the matter as I don't want to get into a political discussion.

 

[FunkMiller]

So you felt, outside of Rocky, the tone from the top 3 movies matched the tone of the bottom 3 movies at exactly the same rate? They had exactly the same amount of hope, optimism, bravery, humor etc...?

Is your point that the three specific older movies you quoted are not as dark as the three modern movies you quoted? Because that's very different from a comment about movies in general. You say it yourself, you cherry picked. You also quote people thinking and talking about suicide in modern movies. Somebody literally commits suicide in Shawshank. Which is darker?

Also, you've mentioned The Batman several times, but I don't see that movie as more nihilistic a version of Batman than previous versions. Yeah, The Riddler is a very dark villain, but Heath Ledger torturing people on video and stringing up his victims outside a police station isn't exactly better.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I'd be depressed working in Hollywierd under the constant ideological cult microscope stifling creativity and writing.

 

[Trilobit]

I don't think we'll get anything as optimistic as Star Wars: A New Hope in a very long time. The director needs to have that sense of optimism and adventure in him to make it happen. Amelie is another one that makes me happy, but it's also pretty sad.

 

[DKehoe]

I found the tone of 2022's The Batman was way darker than any Batman before. The Riddler gave off legit serial killer vibes and we've never seen Batman portrayed like a "freak" as Pattinson said.

But the theme of The Batman is the importance of hope. Batman's arc in it is about going from being a symbol of vengeance to a symbol of hope.



Yeh there's dark stuff in it, but that hope for things to be better is in defiance of that.