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[boredJonathan]

So you are saying that Christ never existed and that he did not die a martyr? I would say that's pretty difficult to prove.

I don't think that was what he was getting at. But since you bring it up, while their might have been a person named Jesus Christ, how can you prove he died a martyr? You are walking down a dark path of asking for proof from the people question religion in general. It just leads to us asking you for proof of what you believe, and since it's just a belief, you won't have much room to move.

 

[Drinky Crow]

People can APPLY the rules of science to faith, but doing so top-down from a set of assumptions (i.e. God created the world) is a very incorrect application of them.

 

[Mumbles]

I've been noticing a double standard when it comes to respecting culture, race, sexuality and respecting religion. Even though I'm not what you would call a God-fearing man I'm somewhat offended by how anti-spiritual these boards seem to be. I just think people need to respect the sanctity of religion, regardless of whether or not you subscribe to those beliefs. Discuss.

Respect is earned, not given freely, and "religion" as a general term, has yet to earn any respect. I respect the right to hold opinions, and that includes my opinion that certain ideas are cruel, disgusting, or just stupid.

You think it's the duty of a man to beat his wives to keep them meek and submissive? That's cruelty.

You think that it's okay to slaughter others in order to achieve your ideal socialist society? Also cruelty.

You think it's okay to have sex with children? That's disgusting *and* cruel.

You think that the all-powerful creator had his perfect plans for the universe ruined by a walking, talking snake? And he hates everyone for it, but also loves them, and so became a human and had himself temporarily sacrificed, and will no longer be angry at people who believe this based on a 2000 year-old, poorly edited book? The only reason I'm not laughing now is that I've heard it too many times.

And the other religions I've heard of are, at best, only marginally better than that.

As for the "sanctity" of religion, there's no such thing.

Race? That's not a belief or a set of behaviors, so it doesn't come into play.

 

[Dilbert]

You can actually prove tenets of science. Prove to me there is a God. Bye-Bye.

Actually, that's not true. You can disprove a hypothesis with a single counterexample, but the best you can do in the positive direction is to produce a mountain of evidence. It's not the same as "proof."

Good Im glad your offended maybe you'll wake up. Christianity and religion in general is for losers.

Hey, speaking of "Bye-Bye"...deliberately trying to offend people is a bad idea, m'kay?

 

[Fresh Prince]

Have you actually read Steven Hawkings- The Theory of Everything: The Origin and Fate of the Universe?
Read any thesis on the quantum physics and the like. Evidence on gravitons?
To basically believe science without reading up on any theories (not laws) and determing for yourself if they are plausible is just as 'stupid' as blindly believing in the bible.

 

[DarthWoo]

The average person doesn't prove shit. If a scientist says eggs are unhealthy, a good measure of the population will blindly believe it.

Even so, one of the critical elements of science is the documentation of your experiments and results. While the average person hasn't the means to duplicate the work, they could at least read the journals and other documentation. Most of the backup for various religions could go like this. "Yes, Jesus loves me; yes, Jesus loves me; yes Jesus loves me; the Bible tells me so."

 

[boredJonathan]

I call strawman.

Most of us "unbelievers" simply feel that religion should not become public law, and that religion has no place being taught in the classroom as fact, nor that should folks of differing beliefs be held to the laws and creeds of one particular religion.

We don't hate you; we just don't CARE that you think abortion is bad and should be legislated against in all cases; we don't CARE that you think homos are evil and should never have the opportunity to enter into formal marriage; we don't CARE that you think the world was created by an omniscient being and that all laws made on Earth should acknowledge that belief; we don't CARE that your rigid sense of morality is offended by naked boobies during the Super Bowl.

We're for a minimum set of restrictions on human behavior in those cases when the harm to another is not clearly delineated, preferring to give the benefit of the doubt to the accused. Rather than endorse one religion in codified, federally sanctioned form, we prefer to endorse NO religion, and instead let religions endorse themselves on their own time and dollar. We prefer the observable, empirical, and scientific because they are the most common of all to our shared perspective.

It's a society of TOLERANCE, and we accept those of you with religious beliefs as a big part of it, but we don't intend to let you expand the rules at the expense of even a minority. Your faith should be strong enough to survive such a notion, and your common sense should be strong enough to realize that this is the best compromise for a democratic society as a whole.

The head of the nail has been hit ladies and gentlemen. Excatly what my inarticulate mind has been trying to say.

 

[karasu]

Even so, one of the critical elements of science is the documentation of your experiments and results. While the average person hasn't the means to duplicate the work, they could at least read the journals and other documentation. Most of the backup for various religions could go like this. "Yes, Jesus loves me; yes, Jesus loves me; yes Jesus loves me; the Bible tells me so."

Not the point. His point was that religious people don't think for themselves, implying that only non religious do. in the real world the average person doesn't read scientific journals. If it comes from an 'authority figure' with a fair amount of media coverage, it's accepted by many.

 

[Loki]

It's a society of TOLERANCE, and we accept those of you with religious beliefs as a big part of it, but we don't intend to let you expand the rules at the expense of even a minority. Your faith should be strong enough to survive such a notion, and your common sense should be strong enough to realize that this is the best compromise for a democratic society as a whole.

I'm a Christian, and I approve this message.


Clearly, I do not believe that certain things, such as opposition to abortion, need be framed in religious terms (I've posted on my non-religious opposition to abortion on this forum before; despite the fact that my religious views and rational views coincide in this case, in others they do not; such instances are the real quandaries for people of faith )-- but on sum, that post is spot-on.

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

Respect is earned, not given freely, and "religion" as a general term, has yet to earn any respect. I respect the right to hold opinions, and that includes my opinion that certain ideas are cruel, disgusting, or just stupid.

You think it's the duty of a man to beat his wives to keep them meek and submissive? That's cruelty.

You think that it's okay to slaughter others in order to achieve your ideal socialist society? Also cruelty.

This sounds like it's mostly from the Old Testament, so you may have to ask a Jew about these excerpts. Many Christians don't even recognize the Old Testament.

You think it's okay to have sex with children? That's disgusting *and* cruel.

Umm..what? :lol

Race? That's not a belief or a set of behaviors, so it doesn't come into play.

People are often born into religion just as they are born into a culture, race, sexuality etc. That's not to say that they can't change their beliefs mid-life, just that many people stick to their belief system.

I think your post is pretty demostrative of extremist views. Perhaps you should read Drinky Crow's post.

 

[Che]

I think that I'm turning more anti-religious day by day. I wasn't always like that, I respected every religion. But watching religion bringing more hate, blind conservatism, death, hypocricy, and the sheepish behavior religious people have, I can't help myself but thinking that I would live in a far better world without it. I don't know if all that qualifies me as "anti-religious", but I've stopped respecting religions and their followers long ago...

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

your avatar negates anything you state

Says he with the dancing stick figure avec white stripes chick's head on it. Dancing Hitler was much funnier. :lol

 

[etiolate]

Why shouldn't we?

I really don't know if you can measure God/religion/soul. You could apply scientific method, but that may involve stuff like sign theory or maybe Intelligent Design and we don't want to upset Mandark.

 

[MrPing1000]

Says he with the dancing stick figure avec white stripes chick's head on it. Dancing Hitler was much funnier. :lol

he's away buying me Mandel bread

 

[Drinky Crow]

Hey, as the father of a gorgeous little daughter, I'm against abortion, too. If any woman asked me for counsel on the matter of abortion, I'd tell her "DON'T DO IT." But the decision should always be left up to her; she may have to face my condemnation and that of others who think it's a terrible choice, but in the end, it's not the government's place to choose FOR her as long as it remains a morally ambiguous decision that society simply cannot agree upon.

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and, I'd like to amend, don't do your God the disservice of forcing him to assume the inherent fallibility of Caesar's station, or to grant Caesar the right to judge as does God. If you're a person of faith, realize that your God WILL judge the sinners accordingly in the proper time and place. There's a reason the Bible admonishes against man's judgment; it wounds the judge as much as it does the sinner.

 

[spliced]

I've been noticing a double standard when it comes to respecting culture, race, sexuality and respecting religion. Even though I'm not what you would call a God-fearing man I'm somewhat offended by how anti-spiritual these boards seem to be. I just think people need to respect the sanctity of religion, regardless of whether or not you subscribe to those beliefs. Discuss.

IAWTP, not only on this board but also in the world too.

But nothing good will come of this post.

 

[brooklyngooner]

I can't really write anything any better than Drinky did except to add that this debate is often framed incorrectly from the outset. Intolerance of the interference of religion in lawmaking and legislation is not the same thing as intolerance of religion. And to believe so does not make one extemist in the least.

 

[Mumbles]

This sounds like it's mostly from the Old Testament, so you may have to ask a Jew about these excerpts. Many Christians don't even recognize the Old Testament.

The first is believed by many people today, but seems especially common in the arab countries. The latter refers to Joseph Stalin, but could be applied to any number of other dictators, and their underlings.

Umm..what? :lol

You said sexuality. Being attracted to children is certainly a type of sexuality, but it's not at all respectable. Being gay or straight is a different part of the same basic subject.

People are often born into religion just as they are born into a culture, race, sexuality etc. That's not to say that they can't change their beliefs mid-life, just that many people stick to their belief system.

That's all well and good, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to look upon their opinions or actions favorably.

I think your post is pretty demostrative of extremist views. Perhaps you should read Drinky Crow's post.

Being an atheist makes me an "extremist" in this country regardless, so I'm not too worried about being labeled one in this matter. Sorry, you can ask me to respect religion all you want, but it's not going to happen.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Intelligent Design isn't scientific. It starts with a set of assumptions and tries to make the empirical evidence fit them. Evolution, on the other hand, just points to a mound of evidence and says "hey. this is the best we can up with from THAT. Make up yer own damn mind, but don't dispute the fundamental observations."

Ultimately, ID is just the argument from awe, which says "wow, this shit's all so amazing; something intelligent musta had a hand in it!" By corollary it also states "it was probably the Christian God, and probably the Baptist Christian God at that" although that little addition rarely gets any airtime in the hopes of keeping the more dogmatic scientific types from getting uneasy.

 

[iapetus]

Many Christians don't even recognize the Old Testament.

It's the big, leather-bound book with 'Old Testament' or 'Bible' on the front cover. Begins "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," or something like that.

You're welcome.

 

[Loki]

Hey, as the father of a gorgeous little daughter, I'm against abortion, too. If any woman asked me for counsel on the matter of abortion, I'd tell her "DON'T DO IT." But the decision should always be left up to her; she may have to face my condemnation and that of others who think it's a terrible choice, but in the end, it's not the government's place to choose FOR her as long as it remains a morally ambiguous decision that society simply cannot agree upon.

I understand; what I meant was that I've posted on my rational disagreement with the idea that abortion should be allowed (i.e., left up to the woman), except in instances of rape or danger to the mother's health. I won't rehash it here (you can do a search if you like)-- my point was only to note that it is possible to rationally and philosophically disagree with the notion of abortion without invoking religious rhetoric (not merely that I don't "like" it, which, as you noted, I'm sure most of us don't).

Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and, I'd like to amend, don't do your God the disservice of forcing him to assume the inherent fallibility of Caesar's station, or to grant Caesar the right to judge as does God. If you're a person of faith, realize that your God WILL judge the sinners accordingly in the proper time and place. There's a reason the Bible admonishes against man's judgment; it wounds the judge as much as it does the sinner.

I wholeheartedly agree; this is why I detest any purportedly religious person who takes judgment into his own hands by way of violence against another. Our judgments are inherently fallible, and though this fact does not preclude those of faith (or anyone else) from rendering relative judgments (i.e., to say "such and such is wrong"), it does preclude us from passing judgment in an absolute sense (i.e., "this person is going to hell for this, and therefore must be acted against in some way"). Absolute judgment is not in our purview, and for good reason, as you noted. A person of true faith-- though they may speak out against certain practices in clear terms according to their beliefs-- should never cross that line into absolute judgment. They should speak out against evil, but never suppose themselves to be God; as you mentioned, judgment is the Lord's. Truly religious people are to bear things in peace and steadfast faith-- or at least that's how I see it. Such is the essence of being a Christian.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Well, the Lord is the New Covenant and all that, which is why Christianity isn't Judaism. That said, evangelicals tend to cherry pick from the OT in order to support their favorite complaints with modern society.

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

It's the big, leather-bound book with 'Old Testament' or 'Bible' on the front cover. Begins "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth," or something like that.

You're welcome.

I'm pretty sure that is spewed all throughout both testaments. What is your point exactly?

EDIT: Ah ok nvm :lol

 

[iapetus]

Being an atheist makes me an "extremist" in this country regardless, so I'm not too worried about being labeled one in this matter.

Being an extremist atheist should classify you as an extremist. If you think that's not the case and atheism in any form causes you to be classed as an extremist, then I'll happily file you in the same box as the thread starter and the people who periodically whine about how GA is overflowing with Nintendo zealots, XBox fanatics, or PS2 lovers, depending on their own personal preferences.

 

[iapetus]

I'm pretty sure that is spewed all throughout both testaments. What is your point exactly?

If a joke needs explaining, it isn't worth it. I blame the flu.

 

[Mega Man's Electric Sheep]

"Originally Posted by DarthWoo:
You usually don't see people proselytizing science scripture on the streets, and warning everyone that if they don't believe the science, then they are going to hell. And in Gary Cattell's (for all you PSU alumni) case, that every passing girl is a whore.


Perhaps this is more of an American trait? I've witnessed nothing like this in Canada."


True story. I live in Canada, and was going to a hockey game with my roommate, his girlfriend, and some friends. My roommate's girlfriend was dressed really sexy, not trashy but with some cleavage showing. Some religious people were handing out pamphlets at the hockey game, and they specifically went up to his girlfriend and handed her a pamphlet, while ignoring the rest of us. What did the pamphlet say? "You are a sinner, and you are going to HELL! But it's not too late! Here's how you can be saved......"

As for respecting the sanctity of religion, that's kinda hard to do when some religious people feel that people that don't believe as they do are going to hell, and seem fond of reminding everyone of that fact. Telling someone they're going to hell is about where the respect train gets off for me.

 

[Boogie]

Well, this thread has developed to be remarkable more civil than I would have feared.

 

[firex]

Anti-religious?

Most educated people are, although 'anti' implies some kind of deliberate action against religion which wouldn't be the case here.

Extremists?

Lol, yep - gaf is a real hotbed of radical zealots just waiting for the rigght moment to destroy all the religions.

shit, they're on to me! I'd better hide the guns fast.

 

[iapetus]

As for respecting the sanctity of religion, that's kinda hard to do when some religious people feel that people that don't believe as they do are going to hell, and seem fond of reminding everyone of that fact.

So some religious people feel that people that don't believe as they do are going to hell, so you find it hard to respect the views of all religious people?

Do you see the slight flaw in that way of thinking?

 

[etiolate]

I think that I'm turning more anti-religious day by day. I wasn't always like that, I respected every religion. But watching religion bringing more hate, blind conservatism, death, hypocricy, and the sheepish behavior religious people have, I can't help myself but thinking that I would live in a far better world without it. I don't know if all that qualifies me as "anti-religious", but I've stopped respecting religions and their followers long ago...

You know, don't judge the Detroit Pistons by what their fans did.

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

You know, don't judge the Detroit Pistons by what their fans did.

:lol

 

[maharg]

Perhaps this is more of an American trait? I've witnessed nothing like this in Canada.

I have.

 

[Loki]

Well, this thread has developed to be remarkable more civil than I would have feared.

Nah, most of the trolling and abuse happens in threads where there aren't quite so many "important" people visibly posting (e.g., iapetus, Drinky, -jinx-).



Besides, I tend to think of myself-- perhaps presumptuously-- as a "civilizing presence".

 

[Boogie]

Nah, most of the trolling and abuse happens in threads where there aren't quite so many "important" people visibly posting (e.g., iapetus, Drinky, -jinx-).



Besides, I tend to think of myself-- perhaps presumptuously-- as a "civilizing presence".

This is true.

 

[DarienA]

I've been noticing a double standard when it comes to respecting culture, race, sexuality and respecting religion. Even though I'm not what you would call a God-fearing man I'm somewhat offended by how anti-spiritual these boards seem to be. I just think people need to respect the sanctity of religion, regardless of whether or not you subscribe to those beliefs. Discuss.

I could care less. The biggest problem I have with certain religious folk is there need to "spread" their religion to people at the most appropriate times, places, etc.

I'm glad you found something that helps you get through the day, the hard times, that supports you and keeps you... but don't force you beliefs on me. I don't speak on my religious beliefs because I find it to be a personal matter, and nothing that I need to put on display in these forums.

 

[Loki]

This is true.

Wait-- the former or the latter?

 

[Boogie]

Wait-- the former or the latter?

Not telling ;P

 

[border]

You hit the nail on the head.
The majority of GAF represent a minority of America that actively lashes out against and condemns Christianity.

Can you please name ~1880 members that you feel actively lash out against Christianity? That is how many it takes to make a majority, but I get the feeling you'd have trouble even getting to 50.

 

[Late Stage Marxist]

I have.

To be honest the only religion I've come in close contact with are Catholics and from anecdotal evidence they seem to be the most laid-back of all Christians. So I'm not saying that the extremists aren't out there, just that I haven't had a personal experience involving any. And I suppose it doesn't surprise me that it happens, particularly in larger cities, where there is a larger kook to sane ratio.

 

[Mega Man's Electric Sheep]

So some religious people feel that people that don't believe as they do are going to hell, so you find it hard to respect the views of all religious people?

Do you see the slight flaw in that way of thinking?

Nope, but I see the flaw of putting words in people's mouths! I never said I found it hard to respect all religious views. I was using the specific example of the extreme right. I'm talking about this untouchable, abstract concept of sanctity of religion, which seems to mean "we can say any fool thing we want about gays and single mothers being responsible for September 11th. Why can't you respect that? How can you laugh at us for telling it like it is?" I don't respect religious extremists. I don't think a lot of religious people respect them either.

 

[Pimpwerx]

I've been noticing a double standard when it comes to respecting culture, race, sexuality and respecting religion. Even though I'm not what you would call a God-fearing man I'm somewhat offended by how anti-spiritual these boards seem to be. I just think people need to respect the sanctity of religion, regardless of whether or not you subscribe to those beliefs. Discuss.

Personally, I'm quite anti-religious b/c I think it's dangerous. Religion probably came about to bring some order to the ancient world. I mean, people were idiots back then and fearful of lots of things. By scaring them into thinking there's consequence beyond this life to their actions was a cheap ploy to keep people in line. It offered incentive. But we've evolved beyond that. I don't think we need the controls of religion anymore. It dumbs-down the populace by (a) teaching them bologna like things in the natural world are the result of a benevolent being who only ever showes himself in the most subtle ways, and (b) brainwashing people into thinking certain things b/c it's the word of said god. There's some positive stuff, but it's all so damn judgemental. I think it's perfectly possible to leave a good, positive life without believing in ghosts or miracles or other stuff like that. Without religion, more people would have to *gasp* think for themselves and make their own moral decisions instead of just parroting what they heard from their pastor. God forbid people enjoy free thought. But this is also why I despise the military and those that control it. Same thing. Controlling people by basically making them stupid. Fuck control. PEACE.

 

[Loki]

Not telling ;P

Doh!

To be honest the only religion I've come in close contact with are Catholics and from anecdotal evidence they seem to be the most laid-back of all Christians

That's because they're always blazin'. They do joints in between hymns. True story-- take it from a recovering Catholic. That's not the Communion wafer...it's rolling paper, baby!

 

[Socreges]

Practically everyone here 'respects' the 'sanctity of religion'. In that it makes no difference to me if olimario thinks there is a higher being gazing down on him. What the fuck do I care? Intolerance comes when religion is either detriment to those who practice it or people who want nothing to do with it.

To be blunt, I'm getting tired of conservatives and Christians (different, but the same) treating themselves as fucking victims.

Oh, and I certainly have my opinions on why people are religious, but that comes from education and a whole lot of consideration. I've probably expressed them at some point as well, though never to the point where people that are confident in their faith should be insulted.

 

[Drinky Crow]

Liberals have to play nice and compromise. Conservatives and especially evangelical conservatives, on the other hand, get a free pass when playing the I JUDGE YOU card.

 

[iapetus]

Nope, but I see the flaw of putting words in people's mouths! I never said I found it hard to respect all religious views.

You said you found it hard to respect 'the sanctity of religion'. If that's what you meant by that, then that's fair enough.

 

[Kon Tiki]

The few people who are pro-religion are anti-another religion. There is is no one here that likes all religions. IMO, it is better to say none of them are right rather then pick one of the wrong ones.

 

[kumanoki]

I, for one, welcome our new extremist evangelical overlords.....provided that 'Bible Stories VII' is a first-person s h o o t e r and has a decent frame rate.

 

[lachesis]

as a modest buddist, I have nothing to say. I am not anti-religion, but I am against religious extremist who take their good teachings from their bible/koran and spread hatred instead.

lachesis

 

[karasu]

This idea that the "educated" are atheists is insanely retarded.

And yeah, the WHOLE of the ancient world got together and created religion to control people. @_@ Why, the idea of someone thinking for themselves and choosing to follow the tenets of a religion is absurd. They are all uneducated zombies. :| Controlled by... pastors. :|

Inflated egos are running wild in this thread.

The few people who are pro-religion are anti-another religion. There is is no one here that likes all religions. IMO, it is better to say none of them are right rather then pick one of the wrong ones.

what a wonky generalization.

 

[Ramirez]

I do find that I hardly agree with any of the views shared by the majority of the board and thats why I tend to stay away from OT