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[Murdok]

Speaking to PC Gamer's Joshua Wolens recently, Colantonio agreed to get into the weeds about what exactly counts as an immersive sim. His definition of the term is unusually broad, it turns out. Asked about why there hasn't been a Call of Duty-scale hit in the genre, he replied that there has: Skyrim.

"If you really think about it, Bethesda games—or Obsidian games—are very, very immersive sim," Colantonio said. "The overlap between first-person RPG and immersive sim, it's very blurry. I would say they are less physical than Arkane games, and they're more on the stats, but at the end of the day they totally rely on simulation. Doing things such as fooling a merchant by putting a bucket on its head is definitely an immersive same thing, right?"

Colantonio isn't the first person to declare Bethesda's open world RPGs belong in the immersive sim bucket, whether or not that bucket is then upended over a shopkeeper. Our history of the best immersive sims included Oblivion on the basis that its physics engine—which lets you do outrageous things like stack paintbrushes to make ladders—and stealth-focused missions like those you do for the Dark Brotherhood make it a close sibling to Deus Ex.

Clarifying what he meant, Colantonio, whose credits include Prey, Weird West, and Dark Messiah of Might & Magic, said, "We always make immersive sims. We've always done them, and we always will. But now, when it comes to the general, you can make an action immersive sim, or you can make an RPG immersive sim. I don't want to speak for Bethesda, but I would be surprised if they say, 'Oh, not at all.' Their games rely heavily on simulations."

On the topic of RPGs that rely heavily on simulations, we come to Baldur's Gate 3, which has been compared to immersive sims for its willingness to let you rob a bank by stacking 45 crates on top of each other to get in the perfect position to fire a magic arrow. Larian's previous RPG, Divinity Original Sin 2, made similar hijinks possible.

"I do see Baldur's Gate definitely as at least immersive sim-adjacent," Colantonio answered, "If being turn-based still makes sense for an immersive sim. You can definitely see where they were going with that. I loved it, by the way. I loved Baldur's Gate, fantastic game."

Finally, on the subject of what defines the immersive sim subgenre, Colantonio said, "We could discuss forever, what is an immersive sim or not? To me, an immersive sim is real-time, [to] some people an immersive sim is in first-person. So it's like, where do you draw the line? And that's why I think, from a marketing standpoint, it's a lot of wasted bullets."

Arkane founder says Skyrim is an immersive sim, and Baldur's Gate 3 is 'immersive sim-adjacent'

The creative director of Prey and Dishonored should know.

www.pcgamer.com

 

[Spooky Scary Skeleton]

I mean, sure. Why not

 

[Hrk69]

Who the fuck cares

 

[Guilty_AI]

eh, his explanation on what imm-sims are... no wonder arkane games don't usually click for me.

 

[LectureMaster]

I never really try to understand what immersive sim genre is but Dishonored, Skyrim, and BG3 happen to be in my top 5 list. I did immerse myself in their gaming words for a good amount of time.

 

[Magic Carpet]

Now I have to reorganize my games library.

 

[Wildebeest]

Immersive sims are Dungeon Master-likes. But the most reliable way I have found of identifying a modern immersive sim is by counting the TTT value. The "time to toilet" measurement. The toilet should be in a plausible location and make a flushing sound when you interact with it. Elder Scrolls is Dungeon Master-like, so might count as a paleo-imm-sim, but not a modern imm-sim.

 

[Arachnid]

Oh boy, the start of one of Neogafs "immersive sim" definition war threads!

Tbh, Arkane are some of the GOAT immersive sim devs. I'll take this dudes take without argument.

 

[peek]

Bah, hes just trying to rope in skyrim towards that term to get it more steam. Which is fine. Whatever.

 

[TintoConCasera]

Any game can be an immersive sim, if you are high enough.

 

[Kagoshima_Luke]

 

[fart town usa]

Immersive Sim has to be the lamest term for a genre. Imaginary fluff term.

 

[semiconscious]

Who the fuck cares

me! give me immersion or give me death!...

 

[RoboFu]

Because only one game can be great!!!!!!

 

[HL3.exe]

 

[The Cockatrice]

Hes not wrong. Skyrim feels like a classic dungeon crawler im sim 80% of the time. Hell I'd even argue it's best played stealthy with a bow. I don't agree with BG3 tho.

 

[bitbydeath]

 

[kapshin]

Now I want EMU DLC for Skyrim.

How would Emu's walking around in Skyrim NOT be amazing

 

[cash_longfellow]

I also once used a lot of drugs.

 

[LakeOf9]

I am certainly not going to argue with an Arkane developer on what should and should not qualify as an imsim lol, if anyone knows what does, it's those guys

 

[The Infectious Paradox]

I hate this new bullshit trend of defining immersive sims

 

[adamsapple]

Posting on GAF is an immersive sim.

 

[cash_longfellow]

Posting on GAF is an immersive sim.

5.7/10 would not recommend

 

[yet_another_alt]

Immersive sim is one of those fake genres like character action.

 

[Larxia]

I mean, it seems obvious to me, bethesda games always had an immersive sim vibe to me given the amount of freedom you are given to do things, and how you can play with the systems. It's not as "tight" as things like Dishonored, but it really has that specific vibe too.

Immersive sim is one of those fake genres like character action.

It's really not though. If when we say "immersive sim" we immediatly know what kind of game we're talking about, how is it a fake genre?
It's useful to define this type of game that are focusing on immersion and the ability to play with "systems", definite systems, instead of specific decided scripts on given moments.

 

[InterMusketeer]

I don't know what an immersive sim is, but a narrator constantly telling you what's happening in a scene is not very immersive to me.

 

[Hemingwayoffbase]

I’m gonna go ahead and disagree.

My understanding of “immersive sim” (like say Deus Ex for example) is that multiple possible solutions to a problem exist within the context of the game character. JC Denton has multiple ways to approach a problem.

Putting a bucket on a merchant’s head in Skyrim only works because you (the player) are breaking the game. I never thought my character was doing that. The “bucket on the head” example is actually incredibly UN-immersive. In an immersive sim, the shop keeper would say “why the fuck are you putting a bucket on my head?!”

 

[nemiroff]

I think "immersive sim" is an awkward term, but it often gets the job done..

 

[TerribleAtThisGame]

Dude made Prey, he can say whatever he wants.

 

[Griffon]

It's about fucking time those clowns finally admit that "immersive sim'" is a stupid name and those games are just all RPGs.

 

[hyperbertha]

eh, his explanation on what imm-sims are... no wonder arkane games don't usually click for me.

To call Skyrim immsim is blasphemy. It's so so NOT

 

[Revolutionary]

It can be, sure.

 

[sigmaZ]

Sure. Why not? Dreams are an immersive sim too.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Just finished BG3.

Definitely immersive sim adjacent.

Divinity Original Sin 2 had a lot more sim elements.

 

[Sentenza]

eh, his explanation on what imm-sims are... no wonder arkane games don't usually click for me.

Eh. Sure, if you are someone who hates the good stuff and completely beyond redemption.

Oh boy, the start of one of Neogafs "immersive sim" definition war threads!

Tbh, Arkane are some of the GOAT immersive sim devs. I'll take this dudes take without argument.

In before the usual retarded takes about how the "name genre sounds pretentious".

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Hes not wrong. Skyrim feels like a classic dungeon crawler im sim 80% of the time. Hell I'd even argue it's best played stealthy with a bow. I don't agree with BG3 tho.

Ignore the term “immersive”.

Focus on word “simulation”.

Simulations are boring so devs added term immersive to make it sound cool.

 

[Sentenza]

Hes not wrong. Skyrim feels like a classic dungeon crawler im sim 80% of the time. Hell I'd even argue it's best played stealthy with a bow. I don't agree with BG3 tho.

Baldur's Gate 3 has definitely way more developed systemic mechanics interacting with each other than Skyrim does. You can kill everyone, the scenario is highly interactable, the structure extremely non-linear, the gaming world acknowledges and reacts to your actions and choices and so on.
And systemic design is basically the hallmark of what defines an immersive sim since Ultima Underworld codified the genre.

I think it's fair to call it just "adjacent" rather than "part of the subgenre", mostly because I don't think a first person camera (or at least a more intimate third person one) should be considered an optional part of the formula.
Conversely Skyrim checks a lot of the marks to be considered part of the genre, but as H HL3.exe already argued (indirectly, by quoting someone else) all its systems are incredibly superficial in their implementation and feel shallow as a result.

Ignore the term “immersive”.
Focus on word “simulation”.

Simulations are boring so devs added term immersive to make it sound cool.

Nonsense. Simulations/simulators are just an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT genre.
A plane or helicopter simulator is NOT an immersive sim even if "you feel very immersed in it".

An "immersive sim" is not "a simulator that feel somewhat immersive to me". It's not a matter of feelings.
It's a specific type of design where the focus is in putting the player inside a highly interactable (so "simulated") scenario that reacts to a generic set of rules rather than specific scripted triggers.

For reference: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ImmersiveSim

 

[vaibhavpisal]

Baldur's Gate 3 has definitely way more developed systemic mechanics interacting with each other than Skyrim does. You can kill everyone, the scenario is highly interactable, the structure extremely non-linear, the gaming world acknowledges and reacts to your actions and choices and so on.
And systemic design is basically the hallmark of what defines an immersive sim since Ultima Underworld codified the genre.

I think it's fair to call it just "adjacent" rather than "part of the subgenre", mostly because I don't think a first person camera (or at least a more intimate third person one) should be considered an optional part of the formula.
Conversely Skyrim checks a lot of the marks to be considered part of the genre, but as H HL3.exe already argued (indirectly, by quoting someone else) all its systems are incredibly superficial in their implementation and feel shallow as a result.


Nonsense. Simulations/simulators are just an ENTIRELY DIFFERENT genre.
A plane or helicopter simulator is NOT an immersive sim even if "you feel very immersed in it".

An "immersive sim" is not "a simulator that feel somewhat immersive to me". It's not a matter of feelings.
It's a specific type of design where the focus is in putting the player inside a highly interactable (so "simulated") scenario that reacts to a generic set of rules rather than specific scripted triggers.

If you think Skyrim has no im sim elements, you haven’t tried everything.

In BG3 i tried a lot of things that should have worked if it were true im sim.

 

[Sentenza]

If you think Skyrim has no im sim elements, you haven’t tried everything.

I... Don't?
I just argued the opposite.
It DOES have a lot of the defining traits of one. They are just implemented in a very, very shallow form, for the most part.

 

[vaibhavpisal]

I... Don't?
I just argued the opposite.
It DOES have a lot of the defining traits of one. They are just implemented in a very, very shallow form, for the most part.

You cannot implement shallow sim elements.

Either they are there or they are not.

One thing I will say, they could have done more work for it to give written feedback to players about how player solved something in unconventional manner.

 

[Sentenza]

You cannot implement shallow sim elements.

You... Absolutely can?

"Simulation elements" come with varying degree on complexity since the dawn of computer software.
Are you people for real?

Not all "stealth gameplay" is created equal, not all "crime systems" in games have comparable levels of granularity and sophistication, etc.

 

[HL3.exe]

but as H HL3.exe H HL3.exe already argued (indirectly, by quoting someone else) all its systems are incredibly superficial in their implementation and feel shallow as a result.

That someone is actually me
You couldn't know

 

[vaibhavpisal]

You... Absolutely can?

"Simulation elements" come with varying degree on complexity since the dawn of computer software.
Are you people for real?

Not all "stealth gameplay" is created equal, not all "crime systems" in games have comparable levels of granularity and sophistication, etc.

When a sim is shallow, it no longer is a sim.

For it to call it sim, it needs to calculate and determine course of action from a wide pool. Which all systems in Skyrim do.

In Skyrim, they don’t give you the feedback that you seek. I already said that. Doesn’t feel tangible unless you are looking for it.

 

[hemo memo]

Deathloop - Groundhog Day simulator

 

[Gojiira]

Wait a minute, so putting a bucket on a merchants head WHICH DOES NOTHING is apparently a Immersive Sim-like feature but the thousands of ways you can interact with merchants in BG3 isnt? Idk he sounds kinda biased and stupid tbh…
Also are Arkane games even Immersive Sims anyway? Games like Dishonored have so few ways to interact with guards,npc’s,environments and the game world itself only reacts to player actions in predefined ways.
Same for Skyrim, the game itself can be immersive due to being first person BUT every aspect of it is superficial, guards will casually walk past dead bodies regurgitating preset lines then move on as if nothing happened, you can be caught murdering yet nobody will treat you differently right after, sorry but Skyrim is not a Sim, the game world does not advance without the player being present, all quests etc will wait until the player decides to do them, theres zero stakes, zero simulation, absolutely rigid game world…

 

[StueyDuck]

Immersive sim essentially means the game world will react to your actions. You can define many games that have such elements. But a true immersive sim is a game where the developers give you the tools and the objective and you as the player can figure it all out.

However there's a line where people do get confused which is a sandbox vs immersive sim, minecraft is not An immersive sim but technically shares similar elements

I'd argue both those games are immersive sim-lite and that prey 2018, system shock, deus ex are true immersive Sims. (Obviously there's many more on the list)

 

[Guilty_AI]

Eh. Sure, if you are someone who hates the good stuff and completely beyond redemption.

I don't dislike them, i just didn't think they were all that. They felt less like imm-sims and more like lite rpgs.

Playing through Prey i'd even see things like enemies spawning out of thin air when they were presenting the mimics for the sake of some cheap jump-scare. I remember reloading the save innumerous times trying to look for the object it was mimicking but nope, it really was just appearing behind me out of nowhere after a trigger point. That's a sin as far as imm-sims are concerned.

 

[Doczu]

Immersive sims are Dungeon Master-likes. But the most reliable way I have found of identifying a modern immersive sim is by counting the TTT value. The "time to toilet" measurement. The toilet should be in a plausible location and make a flushing sound when you interact with it. Elder Scrolls is Dungeon Master-like, so might count as a paleo-imm-sim, but not a modern imm-sim.

So Duke 3D is an im-sim?

Better even, is Duke Forever the grandest o im-sims as it not only has functioning toilets - it let's you pick up feces and use them as a white board marker?

 

[Sentenza]

I don't dislike them, i just didn't think they were all that. They felt less like imm-sims and more like lite rpgs.

They are not mutually exclusive definitions, though. Every immersive sim is basically a RPG hybrid by default. Usually a FPS-RPG hybrid, to be more specific.
Immersive sims are a sub-genre of RPGs. Or if you want to word it differently "a subtype of RPG designed with a specific focus on systemic design and player freedom".

Regardless, your example with Prey sounds more like a gripe that should be specifically targeted at that game, rather than a problem you have with the genre.
I can't say I remember examples of what you are talking about. If I have a main problem with Prey (despise maintaining a very high opinion of the game, overall) is that enemy variety was fairly poor. Aggravated by the face that most of what was there wasn't particularly satisfying to mow down with a gun (aka "poor gunplay").

 

[Guilty_AI]

They are not mutually exclusive definitions, though. Every immersive sim is basically a RPG hybrid by default. Usually a FPS-RPG hybrid, to be more specific.
Immersive sims are a sub-genre of RPGs. Or if you want to word it differently "a subtype of RPG designed with a specific focus on systemic design and player freedom".

Regardless, your example with Prey sounds more like a gripe that should be specifically targeted at that game, rather than a problem you have with the genre.
I can't say I remember examples of what you are talking about. If I have a main problem with Prey (despise maintaining a very high opinion of the game, overall) is that enemy variety was fairly poor. Aggravated by the face that most of what was there wasn't particularly satisfying to mow down with a gun (aka "poor gunplay").

I think you misunderstood me. I don't have a problem with the genre, i have a problem with Arkane games and their take on the genre specifically. Imm-sims are one of my favorite genres.

They are not mutually exclusive definitions, though. Every immersive sim is basically a RPG hybrid by default. Usually a FPS-RPG hybrid, to be more specific.
Immersive sims are a sub-genre of RPGs. Or if you want to word it differently "a subtype of RPG designed with a specific focus on systemic design and player freedom".

I have a sligthly different view on that, i'd say Imm-sims are more of an evolution of dungeon crawlers. They did converge with RPGs at some point so i suppose the view of it being a subtype of RPG is understandable.