NathanMcMahon
Banned
won't someone think of the (unborn)children!? an amazingly pathetic rallying cry
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Arkansas Legislature Overturns Veto, Bans Abortions 12+ Weeks
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won't someone think of the (unborn)children!? an amazingly pathetic rallying cry
Yes there is. Let women have control of what they do with their body.
That's not what I mean and I even finished that post saying that the woman should get the legal right to decide. But that doesn't mean that's the "right" answer to the abortion issue.
Yet the vast majority want to close women's clinics and not universally supply birth control. Pro-life my fucking ass.
That doesn't mean all do. I want many more women's clinics, more birth control, and more support for when the baby is born. However, It sucks that such a large majority exists that wants what you say.
Well. That's idiotic.Yet the vast majority want to close women's clinics and not universally supply birth control. Pro-life my fucking ass.
I, for one, am glad to see this. I hope this leads to a successful challenge of Roe v. Wade.
I'm sure you are an atheist biologist with a vagina and a degree in sociology and economics.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
Yet the vast majority want to close women's clinics and not universally supply birth control. Pro-life my fucking ass.
Or support rape and abuse victims. They do everything they can to marginalize women.
I have no problem with this as long as abortion itself isn't banned. You should have it done as early as possible if you're going to get it done.
Oh you mean like, before you find out the fetus has terrible genetic problems and is going to be cursed to a life of misery in nine months when he or she becomes contextually self aware? Brilliant.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
Oh you mean like, before you find out the fetus has terrible genetic problems and is going to be cursed to a life of misery in nine months when he or she becomes contextually self aware? Brilliant.
obviously, duh
Oh you mean like, before you find out the fetus has terrible genetic problems and is going to be cursed to a life of misery in nine months when he or she becomes contextually self aware? Brilliant.
Late term abortions are banned for a reason.
What's your definition if a life of misery though? I do some work with the handicapped and they're pretty ducking happy on average. I would even venture to say happier than non handicapped people on average.Oh you mean like, before you find out the fetus has terrible genetic problems and is going to be cursed to a life of misery in nine months when he or she becomes contextually self aware? Brilliant.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
War on babies.
sounds better than the war on terror and drugs. I'm sold. sign me up on that fucking stupid list daw mentioned earlier.
What's your definition if a life of misery though? I do some work with the handicapped and they're pretty ducking happy on average. I would even venture to say happier than non handicapped people on average.
that's some amazing anecdotal evidence you have there.
Late term abortions are banned for a reason.
They were banned in large part because of an alleged bearded man 2000 years ago and unlimited white old men ever since. Unless you'd care to give me the specific medicine on the subject, per case.
They were banned in large part because of an alleged bearded man 2000 years ago and unlimited white old men ever since.
Bullshit, I'm not religious and I can even tell you that a late term abortion is not morally right. It's murder. You're killing an actual human being that late into development.
Devolution
Member
Bullshit, I'm not religious and I can even tell you that a late term abortion is not morally right. It's murder. You're killing an actual human being that late into development.
Even so what right does that human have to another human's organs?
What's your definition if a life of misery though? I do some work with the handicapped and they're pretty ducking happy on average. I would even venture to say happier than non handicapped people on average.
It's not up to me to define or decide. And in theory a person could live 90 years in constant physical agony and still have a meaningful and rich life, but I don't want to flip the coin on that scenario, do you? What I do know is that a fetus doesn't have an opinion about it, has no life experience or context to compare or contrast with and effectively is none the wiser. Furthermore, there are 6 billion humans trashing the place that fetus wants to go and there isn't much room for him or her.
I actually understand perfectly well why people have a rigid moral feeling about it and i respect it if its about their body. But I don't. I am a pragmatist.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
Even so what right does that human have to another human's organs?
none
Even so what right does that human have to another human's organs?
That late into development it should be able to live outside the mother with medical assistance.
Relevant - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM
WonkyPanda
Member
I seriously don't see how this survives Roe/Casey.
I'd be shocked if this even got to the 8th cir.
I'd be shocked if this even got to the 8th cir.
What's your definition if a life of misery though? I do some work with the handicapped and they're pretty ducking happy on average. I would even venture to say happier than non handicapped people on average.
The child being "happy" has nothing to do with it. A lot of people simply can't handle the emotional and financial strain of taking care of a special needs kid.
Even so what right does that human have to another human's organs?
Devo, if I could ask genuinely, what circumstances would you as an individual have an abortion if you were pregnant? And in what circumstances would you choose not to have one? Hypothetically speaking that is.
Get government out of my government.Dissolve the state government and federalize it.
Devolution
Member
Devo, if I could ask genuinely, what circumstances would you as an individual have an abortion if you were pregnant? And in what circumstances would you choose not to have one? Hypothetically speaking that is.
Hard to say given the circumstances. Even on the pill I worry about it all of the time to a point where it's probably a full blown anxiety. I make sure to use condoms if I miss a pill or am on antibiotics. If I missed a period I'd go get tested asap and get one as soon as I could. I'm lucky in that I'd be financially covered by my parents if I couldn't not pay it myself. If I was pregnant by choice and found out my child had certain deformities I'd get one too. Mostly I want to avoid the entire process entirely so I'm not faced with such a decision. I'm more than perturbed that even on the pill my period doesn't come on the same damn day.
Hard to say given the circumstances. Even on the pill I worry about it all of the time to a point where it's probably a full blown anxiety. I make sure to use condoms if I miss a pill or am on antibiotics. If I missed a period I'd go get tested asap and get one as soon as I could. I'm lucky in that I'd be financially covered by my parents if I couldn't not pay it myself. If I was pregnant by choice and found out my child had certain deformities I'd get one too. Mostly I want to avoid the entire process entirely so I'm not faced with such a decision. I'm more than perturbed that even on the pill my period doesn't come on the same damn day.
How much does one cost where you live approximately? Here it's free so these numbers always fascinate me.
OldAsUrSock
Banned
Who's implementing anything. Giving women the choice seems fair enough.
It was the woman's choice to have sex in the first place unless it was rape of course.
It was the woman's choice to have sex in the first place unless it was rape of course.
Shit happens bro. When you have sex you take a risk. Like any other risk you take precautions but if the precautions happen to not work you have to make a smart decision from there and decide what's best.
NathanMcMahon
Banned
It was the woman's choice to have sex in the first place unless it was rape of course.
and? your point is? or is that your point?
Devolution
Member
How much does one cost where you live approximately? Here it's free so these numbers always fascinate me.
Let's see.
Nationwide, the cost at health centers ranges from about $300 to $950 for abortion in the first trimester. The cost is usually more for a second-trimester abortion. Costs vary depending on how long you've been pregnant and where you go. Hospitals generally cost more.
I know a friend of mine went to a hospital so it was more expensive (around 2000). The less painful and invasive the process the more it generally costs from what I recall.
It was the woman's choice to have sex in the first place unless it was rape of course.
What's your point exactly? That people shouldn't be intimate with their partners? Have sex ever? Only do it when they're planning on having a kid?
speculawyer
Member
Late term abortions are banned for a reason.
They are not banned. There are restrictions in some states but they are not banned and cannot be fully banned.
WonkyPanda
Member
They are not banned. There are restrictions in some states but they are not banned and cannot be fully banned.
Yup. Casey lays it out pretty clearly:
"The plurality recognized viability as the point at which the state interest in the life of the fetus outweighs the rights of the woman and abortion may be banned entirely 'except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother'"
Let's see.
I know a friend of mine went to a hospital so it was more expensive (around 2000). The less painful and invasive the process the more it generally costs from what I recall.
What's your point exactly? That people shouldn't be intimate with their partners? Have sex ever? Only do it when they're planning on having a kid?
Jesus. The American healthcare system has always terrified me. $2000 just to make it less painful and invasive is so sad. I can't imagine going for procedures like this and not only having to not only bring a checkbook but weight options between invasive vs costly.
ClassyPenguin
Banned
I'm Pro-Death personally. I say kill them all. No children for anybody.
Joke/sarcasm btw
Sounds a little like the Bill Hicks joke.
http://youtu.be/s-pWoVSrKXo?t=2m35s
SquiddyCracker
Banned
Heart beats are such a random thing to focus on.
crackhead_bob
Member
That said, society has a vested interest in the legal availability of abortion given that it arguably lowers crime rates, and that's not even addressing the incredible strain that would occur to social welfare systems like foster care, etc if there were suddenly 50 million extra Americans around. So when it comes to the broad subject (legal or illegal) as opposed to individual cases (should or shouldn't) there are a whole lot of people affected by abortion.
I love how the fetus groupies always throw around the whole "50 million slaughtered since Roe V. Wade" schtick. You know they'd be bitching about these 50 million welfare leeched if they had been born.
Devolution
Member
I love how the fetus groupies always throw around the whole "50 million slaughtered since Roe V. Wade" schtick. You know they'd be bitching about these 50 million welfare leeched if they had been born.
What really disturbs me is they don't even bother to accept the fact that mothers who've already had children get them and people who have fetus with severe deformities (or will essentially be born DEAD) get them. How do you slaughter something born without a brain, part of a brain or an exposed brain that doesn't typically survive birth?
crackhead_bob
Member
I don't think facts or figures deters them one bit. The movement consists of nostalgia junkies who believe that the 1950's were somehow this golden age in American history, and establishment types who really don't give a crap about these fetuses beyond seeing them as a means to an end. Make no mistake about it, however, these people would spirit themselves and their wives to another country if they ever found themselves in a fetus pickle themselves.
If all these scandals involving anti-gay preachers caught with gay hookers is any indication, you can bet that there are probably a sizable number of anti-choice women who have had abortions themselves, or had husbands who arranged "European vacations" for them to deal with problem pregnancies.
I love it how prolifers trivialize the reasons why women have abortions: it's inconvenient, they don't want kids, it'll interfere with their social life, keep them from fitting into a prom dress, etc.. Fact is, these people are the biggest projectors when it comes to moral issues. So it's reasonable to assume that rape, health considerations, et al are probably the least of reasons for them having an abortion.
Part of the reason why this bullshit still continues to go on is that there's still a stigma attached to a woman having an abortion. That needs to stop. As long as it's treated as this dirty, nasty little secret that needs to be buried in a closet, you're going to have politicians who will continue to exploit this issue at every turn because of no ramification. Unfortunately, for our side, women are only mobilized on this issue during presidential election cycles. This previous election demonstrated that women are more than deft in being attentive to this issue when they feel that it is being threatened. All this shit: transvaginal ultrasounds, mandatory waiting periods, TRAP laws, etc. all occur outside of presidential election cycles.
If women hope to contain this bullshit, they need to tear a page out of the gay rights movement and start up an abortion pride movement. I think there also needs to be an aggressive advocacy stand on behalf of abortion providers as well, because the GOP plays this fast and loose routine by vilifying abortion doctors so that they can maintain this false pretense of them caring about the women that they are ultimately screwing over with these laws. I think Doctor Tiller was a hero who provided services to women who would otherwise be left to fend for themselves. At the very least, he was murdered by christian terrorists, and we should not be hesitant to shout these facts from the rooftops just because it might offend the sensibilities of christianists everywhere.
If all these scandals involving anti-gay preachers caught with gay hookers is any indication, you can bet that there are probably a sizable number of anti-choice women who have had abortions themselves, or had husbands who arranged "European vacations" for them to deal with problem pregnancies.
I love it how prolifers trivialize the reasons why women have abortions: it's inconvenient, they don't want kids, it'll interfere with their social life, keep them from fitting into a prom dress, etc.. Fact is, these people are the biggest projectors when it comes to moral issues. So it's reasonable to assume that rape, health considerations, et al are probably the least of reasons for them having an abortion.
Part of the reason why this bullshit still continues to go on is that there's still a stigma attached to a woman having an abortion. That needs to stop. As long as it's treated as this dirty, nasty little secret that needs to be buried in a closet, you're going to have politicians who will continue to exploit this issue at every turn because of no ramification. Unfortunately, for our side, women are only mobilized on this issue during presidential election cycles. This previous election demonstrated that women are more than deft in being attentive to this issue when they feel that it is being threatened. All this shit: transvaginal ultrasounds, mandatory waiting periods, TRAP laws, etc. all occur outside of presidential election cycles.
If women hope to contain this bullshit, they need to tear a page out of the gay rights movement and start up an abortion pride movement. I think there also needs to be an aggressive advocacy stand on behalf of abortion providers as well, because the GOP plays this fast and loose routine by vilifying abortion doctors so that they can maintain this false pretense of them caring about the women that they are ultimately screwing over with these laws. I think Doctor Tiller was a hero who provided services to women who would otherwise be left to fend for themselves. At the very least, he was murdered by christian terrorists, and we should not be hesitant to shout these facts from the rooftops just because it might offend the sensibilities of christianists everywhere.
It was the woman's choice to have sex in the first place unless it was rape of course.
Sex is a biological imperative. It is hardwired into us just as our needs for sleep, food, and water. You CAN NOT expect people to not have sex.
Sex is a biological imperative. It is hardwired into us just as our needs for sleep, food, and water. You CAN NOT expect people to not have sex.
Which is why there are now two types of rape, apparently. Legitimate and Fake Slutty Rape. Obviously the latter is the one secularists have foisted upon us.
reggieandTFE
Member
I, for one, am glad to see this. I hope this leads to a successful challenge of Roe v. Wade.
This is too perfect with your avatar; you've got that pair of smug assholes that whine incessantly about the EVIL government crushing "freedom" with programs like Social Security and food stamps who simultaneously want to control a woman's body.
The Librarian
Banned
crackhead_bob
Member
I think approaching the discussion from the "women deserve control" is a tactic that might not sway a lot of people. I think what a lot of people don't consider is what sort of effect banning abortions would have on the US, on a national scale.
Irrelevant on both counts. You're not going to sway prolifers either way. They don't give a crap about the dangers that existed before Roe Vs. Wade made safe abortions legal. Appealing to their humanity is a fool's errand. Women need to shed this conciliatory, approval complex on this issue. They need to own it, and to own it without apologies.
"I have a right to an abortion, and I don't give a rat's ass what your church says" instead of "I support abortion, even though I believe it's a necessary evil." It shouldn't be anything to be ashamed of. Shame is what empowers these assholes to pass these piece of shit laws like transvaginal ultrasounds, mandatory waiting periods, and ban on abortions after 12 weeks.
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