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[Elaugaufein]

Part of this thread being dead was Arksy's absence. We just sort of devolve into a pretty boring circle of at most mild disagreement without him (largely about the precise degree to which the Coalition suck more than Labor). All I could do is try and be a contrarian about free speech vs insult / offense or censorship to get some bites but it doesn't seem to work very well in this thread.

Yeah I probably should have been a bit more explicit about the effect of that kind of belief on the visibility of structural inequality. Also that I think a religion-like social movement is probably required to prevent capitalism from eating itself.

I actually agree with you about the religion-like social movement, I don't think its a coincidence that many atheists/agnostics view themselves as humanists (or citizens of the world or what have you), that moral duty to humanity / sense of community fulfills the same purpose as religion.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

I suppose a Roman-esque concept of civic virtue could go some of the way to replacing religion in public life, but I fear that like the Roman concept of civic virtue, it wouls only ever take hold amongst the privileged classes.

 

[wonzo]

http://www.theguardian.com/australi...er-of-apartheid-cecil-rhodes?CMP=share_btn_tw

 

[Elaugaufein]

http://www.theguardian.com/australi...er-of-apartheid-cecil-rhodes?CMP=share_btn_tw

Hmm. I agree that removing statues for being completely normal culturally for the time would be wrong but there's a pretty clear distinction between that and created apartheid.

 

[wonzo]

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/vic...sses-funding-could-close-20151224-gluvge.html

Hmm. I agree that removing statues for being completely normal culturally for the time would be wrong but there's a pretty clear distinction between that and created apartheid.

would be best to add a simple plaque or sign noting the context of when the statue was put up. just find his crap about "anti-racists" pathetic

 

[D.Lo]

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/vic...sses-funding-could-close-20151224-gluvge.html

Stories like this always get traction, but there's almost always some perspective needed.

This is a private entity getting government funding.

I've seen it when Disability services places lose their contract, the local rag runs a story about 'Disability centre to be closed by federal government' but it's simply because they didn't achieve results, and the government has actually increased funding overall - just not to them.

Now that one may actually be good and achieving results, I have no idea. But it's fake bad press without any more context and all sides of the argument.

 

[wonzo]

jamie briggs and mal brough are gone

 

[bobnowhere]

jamie briggs and mal brough are gone

It was beyond stupid to ever appoint Brough in the first place and it could/should also take down Pyne and Roy. Turnbull is probably going have the same issue in Feb/March when the RC hands down it's decision in NSW with Sinodinas who is one of three things: Grossly incompetent, stupid or corrupt.

All these along with the great Godwin Gretch point to a significant point of weakness with Turnbull, who he trusts and who he appoints. He might be able to point to Briggs being the last guys man, but Brough was his.

 

[Arksy]

Mal Brough is a fucking stain on the party.

 

[Elaugaufein]

It was beyond stupid to ever appoint Brough in the first place and it could/should also take down Pyne and Roy. Turnbull is probably going have the same issue in Feb/March when the RC hands down it's decision in NSW with Sinodinas who is one of three things: Grossly incompetent, stupid or corrupt.

All these along with the great Godwin Gretch point to a significant point of weakness with Turnbull, who he trusts and who he appoints. He might be able to point to Briggs being the last guys man, but Brough was his.

Don't you mean Sinodinas is at least one of three things ? tacosgirl.gif

 

[wonzo]

e: lmao

 

[bobnowhere]

Don't you mean Sinodinas is at least one of three things ? tacosgirl.gif

I hope not, he's clearly not stupid and I imagine not deliberately corrupt. I suspect he just took a cushy board position and never did his due diligence, just turned up once a month, signed some papers and sucked down his salary. He will be labled as one of those three things and I'm not sure which is worst for a pollie!

Some funny stuff from within about yesterday:

NSW Nationals senator John Williams even said Mr Briggs' departure would improve the quality of the ministry.

A Liberal, who did not wish to be named, said "the IQ quota has gone up and the talentless arrogance quota has gone down" with the exits of both Mr Briggs and Mr Brough.

The Union RC should be reporting today or tomorrow, should be fun and $80+mil well spent! Actally right about now!

Also Abetz is pumping for Abbott to return to the front bench. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... etc...

 

[wonzo]

turc in a nutshell

 

[bobnowhere]

turc in a nutshell

It's the feels.

 

[danm999]

Also Abetz is pumping for Abbott to return to the front bench. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA... etc...

God the delusion.

Even if he hadn't solidified his status as toxic twit in the eyes of the public in his post Prime Ministerial rantings, doesn't he understand the white anting (SORRY NOT THAT, TONES PROMISED HE WOULDN'T) has closed that door forever with Malcolm?

 

[wonzo]

lmao

 

[Elaugaufein]

Happy New Year all.

God the delusion.

Even if he hadn't solidified his status as toxic twit in the eyes of the public in his post Prime Ministerial rantings, doesn't he understand the white anting (SORRY NOT THAT, TONES PROMISED HE WOULDN'T) has closed that door forever with Malcolm?

I'm pretty sure that Bill Shorten is 100% behind the idea of getting Tony back in Cabinet. Preferably in the most senior position available.

 

[Candescence]

So about the mess surrounding Abyan? Turns out Dutton's version of events was bullshit.

 

[danm999]

So Peter Dutton not to be outdone by his 2015 record for stupidity (highlights include the Border Farce, Island Time, everything that happened on Nauru, Abyan) only waited three days to start his 2016 stupidity blitz; by sending a text calling a journalist a "mad fucking witch" to the journalist herself by accident.

Maybe Malcolm will need to replace three Cabinet ministers before Parliament resumes.

 

[bobnowhere]

So Peter Dutton not to be outdone by his 2015 record for stupidity (highlights include the Border Farce, Island Time, everything that happened on Nauru, Abyan) only waited three days to start his 2016 stupidity blitz; by sending a text calling a journalist calling her a "mad fucking witch" to the journalist herself by accident.

Maybe Malcolm will need to replace three Cabinet ministers before Parliament resumes.

I heard about this, but not the offender. It was just an unnamed LNP member that sent it earlier. Doesn't really surprise me that Dutton was responsible, though in his defense he does give off the vibe that modern telephony is beyond him, revolving doors too probably.

All about Briggs of course who not only harassed a staffer, but then sent pictures of her around after she complained and was then published The same Briggs that accepted huge and unusual amounts of free wine as gifts and the very same Briggs that decided the ban on First class travel that applied to all other Ministers didn't apply to him. Classy bloke.

I really hope David Morrison is named Australian of the Year on Australia Day, there's nothing the troglodytes in the Liberal Party like more than being told Women are equal members of society!

 

[wonzo]

lmao of course it was dutton

 

[Yrael]

So about the mess surrounding Abyan? Turns out Dutton's version of events was bullshit.

I can't say I'm surprised. :/ Fucking hell.

 

[Candescence]

Well, this is pretty much the perfect excuse Malcom could have to throw out the last member of the liberal right-wing in cabinet, they wouldn't be able to complain after this kind of fuckup.

And that's before anyone starts grilling Dutton on misleading the public about Abyan.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Is anyone still interested in a group Crikely subscription ? Mine's nearly up at the end of the month, so if people are interested I could make contact.

Well, this is pretty much the perfect excuse Malcom could have to throw out the last member of the liberal right-wing in cabinet, they wouldn't be able to complain after this kind of fuckup.

And that's before anyone starts grilling Dutton on misleading the public about Abyan.

He'd almost certainly have to replace him with a hardliner though (or one of the other two positions). There's a not insignificant number of hardline backbenchers who want Tony Abbott back in Cabinet so they aren't going to take having literally no one in Cabinet well at all. I don't actually see Turnbull putting Abbott back in the Cabinet, before the next election at the earliest, anywhere outside the fever dreams of some ALP / Greens supporters.

 

[danm999]

What portfolio would he even give Abbott? Keeping in mind whatever it is would become a dogs breakfast and give the media another excuse to keep Abbott in their crosshairs.

Maybe Communications? Turnbull might find it funny Abbott has to eat one of his bowls of shit for once, and watching Abbott explain broadband has comedic potential written all over it.

 

[bobnowhere]

Imagine if it was someone in the Labor party that had called a female jorno a "Mad Fucking Witch?" Every single coalition member would be doing doorstops, live crosses and the entire news cycle would be dominated by it.

But seemingly this issue is not that he sent it but that he had a technology fail and sent it too her. They all seem to think it's fine to say it behind closed doors, like sharing and shaming internally the victim of sexual harassment, getting caught is the issue. Peter Slipper lost his job as speaker for some crass jokes involving female genitalia and was then hounded as a traitor and fitted up for some fairly minor expense dodges.

Peter Dutton, he's fucking teflon. Malcolm really did sell his balls to become PM.

 

[Quasar]

https://delimiter.com.au/2016/01/04...s-finances-shows-fttp-better-value-than-fttn/

I am shocked I tell you. Reality favours the fibre fetishists.

 

[senahorse]

https://delimiter.com.au/2016/01/04...s-finances-shows-fttp-better-value-than-fttn/

I am shocked I tell you. Reality favours the fibre fetishists.

SHOCKING NEWS! Thanks again Malcolm.

 

[wonzo]

speaking of delimiter i kinda regret kickstarting renai's book now

 

[Mr. Tone]

Is anyone still interested in a group Crikey subscription ? Mine's nearly up at the end of the month, so if people are interested I could make contact.

I'm still keen.

 

[Shaneus]

speaking of delimiter i kinda regret kickstarting renai's book now

Hm. It does seem quite an odd thing to say, but I do kind of side with him. Obviously sexism and sexual harassment is a fucking big issue, but from his perspective I can understand his frustration in MP idiocy getting more coverage than his bread and butter.

I'm still keen.

I'm keen too, and I apologise for completely dropping the ball on it, but it's been a stupid busy kind of year. I forget how much it was going to cost per head but I could scrounge up the money without too much issue I think.

Is someone else able to organise it? I really don't have the energy or time right now to pull it off competently

 

[wonzo]

 

[danm999]

And now someone Briggs sent the photo to of the public servant has leaked it to the Australian.

Dearie me they wonder why people say this country has a misogyny problem when this is how the people at the top act.

 

[Quasar]

https://delimiter.com.au/2016/01/05...metro-customer-to-be-replaced-with-satellite/

Just wow.

And hell...even that FTTN extension quote is hilarious. No One would get an extension at that price.

 

[Quasar]

speaking of delimiter i kinda regret kickstarting renai's book now

I cant imagine thats the worst name a politician has called a journalist.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I cant imagine thats the worst name a politician has called a journalist.

I'd bet money Keating said worse, possibly even in public.

One issue is that gendered slurs against women are perceived as being worse: you'd get about 1/10th the media coverage if a male journalists was called a bastard compared to calling a women a witch, and that's being generous. That creates some difficult asymmetry even if the reasons are understandable: female slurs are often used to impugn professional capability.

 

[D.Lo]

I'd bet money Keating said worse, possibly even in public.

One issue is that gendered slurs against women are perceived as being worse: you'd get about 1/10th the media coverage if a male journalists was called a bastard compared to calling a women a witch, and that's being generous. That creates some difficult asymmetry even if the reasons are understandable: female slurs are often used to impugn professional capability.

I think anything against females. Call a female a bastard and it will also get more coverage than calling a man a bastard.

It's kind of like... semi-positive reverse sexism? It comes from a 'must protect women' conservative sexist idea, but the result is calling women names is considered worse than calling men names.

 

[Mr. Tone]

Leyonhjelm weighs in.

Libertarian senator David Leyonhjelm has labelled someone a "c---" on Twitter during an argument over Immigration Minister Peter Dutton's text mishap, in which he labelled a female journalist a "mad f---ing witch".

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

I think anything against females. Call a female a bastard and it will also get more coverage than calling a man a bastard.

It's kind of like... semi-positive reverse sexism? It comes from a 'must protect women' conservative sexist idea, but the result is calling women names is considered worse than calling men names.

I don't think it's that at all.

Insults that humiliate you by implying that you are not an equal cut deep when they're backed up by social or political reality. You can call a CEO a loser because of a personal or professional failing, but at the end of the day, they're still in a position of wealth and power and your jab has very little effect. On the other hand, calling a woman a sexist slur insults them for the very fact of being a woman and the fact that women are still commonly treated as less worthy than men lends the insult a painful resonance. It can be extremely humiliating and for something that the victim cannot change.

The reason it's considered bad form these days to make fun of women, ethnic minorities, the disabled or LGBT people for the fact of being these things is because 1) these things are intrinsic to identity and are not easily changed and 2) these are groups that have historically been powerless or had a lower standing within society. This is why you can, I feel, make fun of Bronwyn Bishop for being a hypocritical tory and a backstabbing opportunist with impunity, but you cross a line by insulting her womanhood.

 

[Bernbaum]

 

[shanshan310]

So does anyone think there will be any repercussions at all for Dutton over screwing around that pregnant refugee woman?
Did she ever get her abortion btw?

I don't think it's that at all.

Insults that humiliate you by implying that you are not an equal cut deep when they're backed up by social or political reality. You can call a CEO a loser because of a personal or professional failing, but at the end of the day, they're still in a position of wealth and power and your jab has very little effect. On the other hand, calling a woman a sexist slur insults them for the very fact of being a woman and the fact that women are still commonly treated as less worthy than men lends the insult a painful resonance. It can be extremely humiliating and for something that the victim cannot change.

The reason it's considered bad form these days to make fun of women, ethnic minorities, the disabled or LGBT people for the fact of being these things is because 1) these things are intrinsic to identity and are not easily changed and 2) these are groups that have historically been powerless or had a lower standing within society. This is why you can, I feel, make fun of Bronwyn Bishop for being a hypocritical tory and a backstabbing opportunist with impunity, but you cross a line by insulting her womanhood.

Well put.

 

[Dryk]

https://delimiter.com.au/2016/01/04...s-finances-shows-fttp-better-value-than-fttn/

I am shocked I tell you. Reality favours the fibre fetishists.

It's almost like the consensus of experts (and a regret ex-BT head) was worth listening to this whole time. Shocked.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I'm happy to organize the Crikey thing. I think that means we got 3 so far (Shaneus , Mr Tone and myself). That would qualify as for the $149 / member group. We'd also get 1 free member but we'd need a 4th person for that to work (since you need 3 paying members to qualify) (that'd drop us to ~$111.75 each). 5 and 6 would cost slightly more (since the free member discount is split further). 7 would move us to the next pricing tier which is $139 / member with 1 free member. We had 8 last time around which is still in that $ 139 group, so if everyone is still interested we'd be looking at 7/8* 139 ~= $121.63 each. I'm okay with splitting the free membership differently if everyone else who's paying agrees (e.g if there's someone who can't afford the full cost).

If you're interested drop me a PM with your email, and if you have an existing Crikey subscription and how much time is left on it. Please let me know ASAP. Preferably within the next 2 weeks, and then I'd pay for the sub sometime between the 21st and 28th). Don't worry if you can't get the money together on such short notice, as long as you'll have it within a reasonable period (but do let me know if that's the case).

It's almost like the consensus of experts (and a regret ex-BT head) was worth listening to this whole time. Shocked.

There you go again talking about the consensus of experts, you commie. We've got no patience for that kind of talk around here.

 

[manipulate]

Don't really understand why calling someone a 'witch' insults their 'womanhood', or why that even matters at all in the first place

 

[Aarglefarg]

Don't really understand why calling someone a 'witch' insults their 'womanhood', or why that even matters at all in the first place

It is a gendered term.

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Don't really understand why calling someone a 'witch' insults their 'womanhood', or why that even matters at all in the first place

'Witch' plays into old stereotypes about women, implying sinister, underhanded and malevolent behaviour that is distinctly female. Turned on its head, one of its shades of meaning is "you are evil because you are a woman". See also, the use of the word 'bitch'.

Insulting someone for being a woman is like insulting someone for being black. As I said before, the insult packs a harder punch.

 

[Rubixcuba]

PM'd about Crikey thing ^

Guys just realised, its election year! When's our predictions for election dates, end October?

 

[wonzo]

Richard Di Natale breaks with Greens' policy on genetically modified crops, says argument lacks evidence

finally

 

[viciouskillersquirrel]

Richard Di Natale breaks with Greens' policy on genetically modified crops, says argument lacks evidence

finally

He's a physician. He of all people was no doubt aware that there is no plausible mechanism for genetic manipulation in itself causing disease. That, and decades of studies showing no link makes the decision a cinch.

 

[bomma_man]

Richard Di Natale breaks with Greens' policy on genetically modified crops, says argument lacks evidence

finally

Nice.

Been impressed with him so far.