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[manipulate]

Sure it's gendered but why is that inherently problematic?

'Witch' plays into old stereotypes about women, implying sinister, underhanded and malevolent behaviour that is distinctly female. Turned on its head, one of its shades of meaning is "you are evil because you are a woman". See also, the use of the word 'bitch'.

Insulting someone for being a woman is like insulting someone for being black. As I said before, the insult packs a harder punch.

This seems to be a very specific and willful interpretation; I would say it's far more reasonable and common to interpret 'witch' and similar gendered insults as being an insult of "you're a particularly terrible type of woman" rather than "you're a woman, and that's inherently terrible"


Edit: Just saw the Di Natale thing; impressed he's said that, however I expect that's going to play terribly with the base

 

[Elaugaufein]

It's almost like the consensus of experts (and a regret ex-BT head) was worth listening to this whole time. Shocked.

Sure it's gendered but why is that inherently problematic?



This seems to be a very specific and willful interpretation; I would say it's far more reasonable and common to interpret 'witch' and similar gendered insults as being an insult of "you're a particularly terrible type of woman" rather than "you're a woman, and that's inherently terrible"


Edit: Just saw the Di Natale thing; impressed he's said that, however I expect that's going to play terribly with the base

Part of it is that witch is used to substitute for bitch fairly often. Why bitch is regarded as being so much worse than calling a male a bastard (which is the traditional parallel) is a bit more mysterious.

I am a Greens member and I think Di Natale's right about GMO regarding the inherent health risks.

(Interesting Factoid - Last time I went to a Greens meeting I was the youngest member there and I'm over 30. This was Noosa though, so I make no claims its a representative sample of the party at a national level. It was also more media-aware/cautious than you might expect. )

 

[manipulate]

I think there are probably some substantial economic/legal issues surrounding the use of GMOs which are likely to prove problematic in the future, though. And GMO crops should continue to be subject to testing for health risks. But to reject the technology root and branch is madness.

Part of it is that witch is used to substitute for bitch fairly often. Why bitch is regarded as being so much worse than calling a male a bastard (which is the traditional parallel) is a bit more mysterious.

It all seems a bit silly. You have to be a person with a massive, massive agenda to pretend that the way the term "bitch" or "bastard" is typically used is attacking someone for their gender, rather than being an unpleasant person of a gender. They're just more flavourful than un-gendered insults in some respects.

 

[Jintor]

really? i feel like female-coded insults always have that edge to them. at the least you call a man a bastard or you call him a bitch and odds on he'll be more offended by one just for the gendered implication. Maybe that's a different thing though.

 

[Elaugaufein]

really? i feel like female-coded insults always have that edge to them. at the least you call a man a bastard or you call him a bitch and odds on he'll be more offended by one just for the gendered implication. Maybe that's a different thing though.

I'm actually trying to come up with male gendered slurs which are traditionally exclusively directed at males and mostly failing. Most of the gendered slurs that are exclusively directed at men that I can come up with are either female gendered ("pussy") or impugn female lineage ("sonofabitch") or imply a lack of masculinity ("dandy","wuss") rather than a problem exclusive to it.

I have come up with a few but they are rather archaic ("brute").

 

[manipulate]

really? i feel like female-coded insults always have that edge to them. at the least you call a man a bastard or you call him a bitch and odds on he'll be more offended by one just for the gendered implication. Maybe that's a different thing though.

Ehhh, pretty sure that's a different thing. I don't think calling a man a bitch is more offensive because of the idea that 'females are inherently inferior'. It's an attack on a man's masculinity, his ability to live up to our expectations of what a man should be. This is distinct in the type of insult it is when applied (as it more commonly is) to a female, when it is intended to describe the subject as an unpleasant type of female.

 

[manipulate]

I'm actually trying to come up with male gendered slurs which are traditionally exclusively directed at males and mostly failing. Most of the gendered slurs that are exclusively directed at men that I can come up with are either female gendered ("pussy") or imply a lack of masculinity ("dandy","wuss") rather than a problem exclusive to it.

I have come up with a few but they are rather archaic ("brute").

Dickhead
Bellend
Weapon
Douchebag
Fuckboy

Think of all the glorious phallic ones, my friend. Even arsehole is male-centric in utilisation, for some reason.

Edit: The archaic ones are kind of more interesting. Cretin is another archaic one. Boor? Lout? Thug? I suppose these are more terms that describe unpleasant characteristics usually associated with maleness, I suppose equivalent to 'whore' and the like.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Dickhead
Bellend
Weapon
Douchebag
Fuckboy

Think of all the glorious phallic ones, my friend. Even arsehole is male-centric in utilisation, for some reason.

Edit: The archaic ones are kind of more interesting. Cretin is another archaic one. Boor? Lout? Thug? I suppose these are more terms that describe unpleasant characteristics usually associated with maleness, I suppose equivalent to 'whore' and the like.

I've heard all of those directed at females (apart from Weapon and Fuckboy which I've never heard used at all) with pretty much the same connotations as when used on a male, at that. Calling a male a bitch is probably more offensive than calling a female a bitch in common use (I've known females who take it as a compliment but I doubt many males would).

 

[manipulate]

I've heard all of those directed at females (apart from Weapon and Fuckboy which I've never heard used at all).

How would you describe the distribution of usage? Edit: weapon is much more UK, and fuckboy obviously from the US (although I suppose it's more similar to 'faggot' than anything else). I myself have literally never heard douchebag directed at anyone that wasn't male, and would estimate that the others like dickhead would be directed at males at least 80-90% of the time. Arguably males are more often acting like dickheads, though, which distorts the data.

UK also has git!

 

[Elaugaufein]

How would you describe the distribution of usage?

My social group is predominantly male, so I have to control for that which makes things a big trickier.
More male leaning for dickhead. Douchebag may actually lean more female. Bellend I've heard so few times that I can't really judge, though I have heard knobhead or knobend which is almost exclusively male directed (and probably has ~the same meaning).. Asshole is mainly male (a female would probably be called a bitch instead for the same specific things).

ETA - In response to your edit: It's interesting how insults and profanity vary so much regionally. I wonder if the degree of offense / how profane it would be considered have an impact on the gender distribution. A lot of Australian insults are masculine but tend to be used for both genders but that's true of a lot of Australian slang.

 

[shanshan310]

Dickhead
Bellend
Weapon
Douchebag
Fuckboy

Think of all the glorious phallic ones, my friend. Even arsehole is male-centric in utilisation, for some reason.

Edit: The archaic ones are kind of more interesting. Cretin is another archaic one. Boor? Lout? Thug? I suppose these are more terms that describe unpleasant characteristics usually associated with maleness, I suppose equivalent to 'whore' and the like.

I've only started hearing this one recently. Is it actually offensive? Because it doesn't sound offensive from my perspective at all, especially compared to a female equivalent like slut or whore.

 

[bomma_man]

I've only started hearing this one recently. Is it actually offensive? Because it doesn't sound offensive from my perspective at all, especially compared to a female equivalent like slut or whore.

It's like a non homophobic replacement for faggot

 

[bomma_man]

That Caleb Bond kid is on TV.


Is it possible to die of douche chills? Because fuuuuck.

 

[Jintor]

I know the word's origin but I've never considered douche or douchebag to be a gendered insult

 

[Shaneus]

That Caleb Bond kid is on TV.


Is it possible to die of douche chills? Because fuuuuck.

lol, the header on his website:

"He has more political nous than most people three times his age." ~ Miranda Devine, Daily Telegraph columnist and 2GB broadcaster

Bahahahahahaha

 

[danm999]

Was that the 16 year old kid who gave us his hot take on the women's reproductive rights debate last year?

 

[bomma_man]

Probably. He speaks like the love child of abetz and pyne.

 

[manipulate]

I've only started hearing this one recently. Is it actually offensive? Because it doesn't sound offensive from my perspective at all, especially compared to a female equivalent like slut or whore.

There's kind of a funny evolution with that one. It's typically been used as an alternative to 'faggot'. It derives from prison slang, so I'm sure you can deduce what it means. It's historically only really been used by urban populations in the US (I first came across it in rap music, where it's very common). But mysteriously in the last few years it's been assimilated by middle-class white people across the world as a semi-derogatory term to describe the modern-day Lothario type.

 

[shanshan310]

It's like a non homophobic replacement for faggot

There's kind of a funny evolution with that one. It's typically been used as an alternative to 'faggot'. It derives from prison slang, so I'm sure you can deduce what it means. It's historically only really been used by urban populations in the US (I first came across it in rap music, where it's very common). But mysteriously in the last few years it's been assimilated by middle-class white people across the world as a semi-derogatory term to describe the modern-day Lothario type.

Oh I see. Well then, I completely misinterpreted the meaning there :s

 

[Elaugaufein]

Anymore takers for Crikey ? We've got 5 so far (though the 2 from this thread haven't sent me their details yet).

 

[Shaneus]

Anymore takers for Crikey ? We've got 5 so far (though the 2 from this thread haven't sent me their details yet).

I suspect one of those people is me? I'm waiting for my pay to come through this week before I can do anything... unless a few days puts things in jeopardy.

 

[Elaugaufein]

I suspect one of those people is me? I'm waiting for my pay to come through this week before I can do anything... unless a few days puts things in jeopardy.

No, that's fine. I'm not getting things together until the 21st. I just hadn't gotten any new stuff in a few days, so I wanted to poke others who are potentially interested and confirm that the people who said they were interested here, still were. I might have to get started a little earlier if people have existing Crikey subscriptions though, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[wonzo]

 

[bobnowhere]

'Worse than Game of Thrones red wedding': Liberal MPs face axe before federal election

Sources from all three factions of the NSW Liberal party have confirmed plans are underway for widespread challenges from the party's dominant left faction and its centre-right. MPs including John Alexander (Bennelong), Senator Bill Heffernan and Philip Ruddock (Berowra) are in the sights of challengers.

...

B. Bishop, Craig Kelly and Concetta Fierravanti-Wells are also vunerable from an attack from the left. Yes the Left! Wonder if Abbott is next.

All in NSW so far but who knew the left/centre were so powerful and emboldeded even with Smiley as Premier and Malcom as PM.

 

[Rubixcuba]

Not sure if I prefer Liberal Left faction or Labour Right. The ahh, lesser of two evils?

 

[Elaugaufein]

'Worse than Game of Thrones red wedding': Liberal MPs face axe before federal election



B. Bishop, Craig Kelly and Concetta Fierravanti-Wells are also vunerable from an attack from the left. Yes the Left! Wonder if Abbott is next.

All in NSW so far but who knew the left/centre were so powerful and emboldeded even with Smiley as Premier and Malcom as PM.

How longs it been since the Liberal Left actually had a PM ? If its been as long as I think then you could really get the knives out. Especially considering just how badly Abbott did as PM, Turnbull hasn't changed policy in any significant measurable way but he's currently looking like he could pull a Howard and be in office for a decade or so.

 

[wonzo]

lol

 

[danm999]

Anything that moves the nation's politics away from the dreadful path Abbott and Co were taking it down is fine by me. Maybe Turnbull can reduce their numbers to such an extent he isn't encumbered by their tantrums.

 

[wonzo]

former abc tech editor confirmed he was gagged on writing about the nbn

 

[Elaugaufein]

lol

Its funny I made a comment about how odd it was the Greens platform has often been more pro union than Labor recently.

 

[Shaneus]

former abc tech editor confirmed he was gagged on writing about the nbn

But teh bias!!!11

 

[Candescence]

He's also gonna be doing an AMA tomorrow.

This could be potentially explosive, though the Murdoch press and other conservative outlets will be doing their damned hardest to bury it. But if Nick actually provides evidence that he was gagged and the ABC was going out of their way to bury NBN coverage due to political pressure? That's not a good look for Malcom, and it would make his current personal private secretary, Sally Cray, look even worse, as she was head of ABC corporate communications at the time. Doubly so if it was due to Abbot, which would basically make Malcom look like a rubber stamp machine rather than actually owning the Coalition's version of the NBN.

Tomorrow is gonna be fun.

 

[bobnowhere]

There was no talk on Q&A last year about the NBN and that order came down from the coalition, no NBN talk or we're not coming on. Political interference into content is explosive but will probably not go anywhere with a meek opposition and a still a largely compliant or struggling to survive media.

The new NBN, just as expensive as the first version if not more, half-arsed, and will require upgrades in the future just to make it on par with the rest of the world. Yet all of a sudden no one cares.

 

[Dryk]

The new NBN, just as expensive as the first version if not more, half-arsed, and will require upgrades in the future just to make it on par with the rest of the world. Yet all of a sudden no one cares.

You're only allowed to talk about things when both sides are the same. When one is CLEARLY better mentioning it is bias.

 

[Shaneus]

There was no talk on Q&A last year about the NBN and that order came down from the coalition, no NBN talk or we're not coming on. Political interference into content is explosive but will probably not go anywhere with a meek opposition and a still a largely compliant or struggling to survive media.

Yeah, this could be absolutely fucking massive. Funny how it's basically exactly the opposite of having an agenda.

 

[Candescence]

The AMA has started.

So far, Nick has basically stated that he was being directly pressured by a senior manager to not to write about the NBN as far back as March 2013 because the ABC were expecting the Coalition to win the election and they didn't want to piss off Turnbull, who ended up being in charge of the ABC.

In other words, the Coalition was basically crippling the ABC's ability to write about the NBN period, let alone impartially, because they have a history of screaming "BIAS!!!!1111" at the top of their lungs at anything that isn't in their favor, and could hang the threat of budget cuts over the ABC's head as punishment for anything they don't like.

Edit:

I really don't know. I was the only Technology editor in the entire organisation. Noone else really covered it. However, when it came to doing the ABC's pre-election guides to party policies, the NBN one was done without me. It looks like it came from Malcolm Turnbull's office. When I spoke to the creator of it (I forget who) about the fact we'd posted something that we knew was untrue, he said the team had decided to go with a 'he said she said' line to avoid trouble.

HOLY SHIT. While this might not be true, if it is, the Coalition are basically hypocrites when it comes to the ABC.

 

[bobnowhere]

^^ Damn! The ABC is brave in many ways but still shit-scared of pissing off the person that signs the cheques!

 

[Shaneus]

^^ Damn! The ABC is brave in many ways but still shit-scared of pissing off the person that signs the cheques!

They even cut back and *still* got reamed as far as funding goes. Imagine what would've happened if they maintained their respectability as a news publisher.

 

[Dryk]

http://www.*****************/news/article-3400256/ABC-journalist-claims-gagged-writing-NBN.html

Comments are interesting

This is what happens to anyone who does not abide by the ABC's left-wing agenda.

I thought the lefties at the ABC would be drooling over the NBN as one of Labors flagship policy. Oh wait, by 2013 it was being 'scaled down' by the Libs so maybe that is why they went sour on it.

Everyone knows the ABC is made up of a bunch of bias lefties

It's like they can't even comprehend the ABC showing non-left-wing bias XD

 

[Dead Man]

http://www.*****************/news/article-3400256/ABC-journalist-claims-gagged-writing-NBN.html

Comments are interesting







It's like they can't even comprehend the ABC showing non-left-wing bias XD

Bloody hell. :/

 

[Shaneus]

What site is that? I figured almost all "regular" news sites were okay here.

Edit: Never mind, worked it out.

BTW Is this new thread worthy? I'd have thought censorship of a public broadcaster in any country would kind of validate it.

 

[Mr. Tone]

What site is that? I figured almost all "regular" news sites were okay here.

Edit: Never mind, worked it out.

BTW Is this new thread worthy? I'd have thought censorship of a public broadcaster in any country would kind of validate it.

I think it's something worth kicking up a stink about.

 

[Shaneus]

Holy shit.

It's not like I was given a form that said "Gag order" on it. I was told not to upset pollies. I had articles held back. I was told instead to write an article about "why the NBN had failed"... 4 months before the election.

I said I would but didn't. When the media says things like that it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Part of the reason I'm doing this is because we've another election coming up this year and, as a member of the public and tax payer, I don't want my ABC manipulating news according to a political party.

Trains appear to be fucked so I'm leaving work early, won't have time to knock anything up right now. If no-one else gets to it, I might later tonight.

Edit: Holy shit #2:

As I've now said elsewhere, after the initial meeting I decided to record subsequent meetings to protect myself. Lucky I did:-

I've literally got them on tape saying "the NBN is dead and so there's no point in making a fuss" four months before the election and using that as an excuse not to publish the copper article.

 

[A More Normal Bird]

Would love to see this blow up and end Turnbull's honeymoon, but anything NBN related seems to have some kind of special anti-attention coating.

http://www.*****************/news/ar...iting-NBN.html

Comments are interesting

It's like they can't even comprehend the ABC showing non-left-wing bias XD

Fucking lmao. Idiots. Watch the Liberals spin this to be entirely about the ABC.

 

[Jintor]

^^ Damn! The ABC is brave in many ways but still shit-scared of pissing off the person that signs the cheques!

even a public broadcaster is ultimately beholden to the man who signs the checks. sad

 

[Dryk]

Would love to see this blow up and end Turnbull's honeymoon, but anything NBN related seems to have some kind of special anti-attention coating

That anti-attention coating is every mainstream news organisation refusing to touch it. Hell the Australian's already going to bat for the ABC on this one.

 

[Candescence]

Nick posted two entire blocks of text of great detail that explains that the Media Watch episode about him was basically a hit-piece on him, with "he said she said" journalism and no effort to talk to Nick to get his side of the story. He also notes that this has happened to other journalists and Media Watch basically has no oversight, no right of reply or even obligation to talk to whoever is the subject of the episode being produced.

I have lost so much respect for the ABC. If Labor and the Greens got wind of this, they'd probably screaming in the government's and the ABC's faces about it.

Edit: Also, it seems Renai has gone and thrown Nick under the bus before the whole AMA is even over. Granted, Renai is also a hardcore FTTN supporter and Turnbull fanboy, and is probably scared of losing his Canberra press card by association.

 

[Yrael]

Nick posted two entire blocks of text of great detail that explains that the Media Watch episode about him was basically a hit-piece on him, with "he said she said" journalism and no effort to talk to Nick to get his side of the story. He also notes that this has happened to other journalists and Media Watch basically has no oversight, no right of reply or even obligation to talk to whoever is the subject of the episode being produced.

Wow, that is beyond hypocritical, considering what Media Watch is meant to do.

 

[Candescence]

Hell, the fact that Nick has his bosses saying "the NBN is dead, no point writing about it" on tape is a pretty huge deal, and takes a sledgehammer to the right wing's "the ABC is biased towards the left" narrative.

While people are complaining that he's been showing little actual proof, it should be mentioned that you can't show the kind of proof he has on Reddit, he's getting his actual proof vetted and whatnot so it can be published elsewhere. This is basically the tip of the iceberg, we could see plenty of ammunition for Labor and the Greens to fire at Turnbull. Nick perhaps should've saved an AMA until after all his evidence was revealed, but oh well.

Edit: Oooooohhhh boy:

As the technology editor, you would have technically had the ability to publish whatever you like right? I can only assume you didn't in fear of retribution?
Was your job ever threatened if you published your views instead of the political ABC position?

a) I've seen articles by Alan Sunderland and statements from Mark Scott saying that this is what ABC Editors are allowed to do. In reality they are not.
I've got taped the manager saying something along the lines of 'our job is not to say who's right or wrong but to just say what's happening.' (I need to check exact wording). So what's being said externally is different to what I was told internally.

Speaks volumes of how much the ABC is scared of the Coalition's constant attacks.

 

[Elaugaufein]

Edit: Also, it seems Renai has gone and thrown Nick under the bus before the whole AMA is even over. Granted, Renai is also a hardcore FTTN supporter and Turnbull fanboy, and is probably scared of losing his Canberra press card by association.

I don't think Renai's an FTTN supporter exactly. His usual position has been that it could have been adequate , if I've been understanding him right (which was generous but within the bound of reason at the time he published it, at this stage it's pretty much Bringing You Yesterday's Technology Tomorrow