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AusPoliGAF |OT| Boats? What Boats?

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That is actually the solution. Media regulations exist so media cannot just go off and make up garbage, bribe people, or circumvent privacy laws, which is the fundamental issue with the United Kingdom press.

A state run media is not motivated by money because they are offered financial security. So they are allowed the benefit of investing effort into producing high quality journalism rather than picking up circulation scoops like the Queen's Corgis or Jeremy Clarkson's possible affair.

This, of course, relies on a population that is vigilant.
 

Jintor

Member
I can't recall if you said before you were in favour of the repeal of s18C of the Racial Discrimination Act Arksy, was that you?
 

Arksy

Member
I can't recall if you said before you were in favour of the repeal of s18C of the Racial Discrimination Act Arksy, was that you?

Probably. I'm in favour of its repeal due to how it's been used, namely, political prosecutions based on viewpoints people don't agree with. We have defamation for personal attacks.

However the lawyer in me could see that there could be an 'act', outside of 'political communication' or 'speech' that it might be highly offensive where the section would be appropriate. You'd have to make the arguments though as to why other laws would not be appropriate to apply in the circumstances.

So on balance, I'd prefer to amend s 18D to allow for political arguments or similar in the list of exclusions.
 

wonzo

Banned
Apparently the Productivity Commissioner is too close to the NBN to provide a fair cost-benefit analysis (read: do what Turnbull wants). I'd think that after sacking the NBN Co board for not knowing enough about the technology he'd be exactly the person you'd want doing the analysis but whatever.

http://www.smh.com.au/technology/tec...924-2uca6.html
You know the Liberals have truly gone of the deep end when they give the finger to even the Productivity Commission. Ugh.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
I am incredibly happy to engage in honest debate, I'm trying to engage with as many people as I can (edit: And do some work, I suppose, maybe). It can be a bit difficult to keep track of things when you're engaging with 10+ people at once like I am. I'm also sorry if saying magical unicorns offended you. I thought it was incredibly condescending when you said my arguments were providing you with a lot of amusement. Which to me said you were basically laughing in my face. Like I said just before, I'm engaging with a lot of people here so forgive me if I chose not to engage with one person on the basis I'm simply getting mocked and derided.

Your talk of magical unicorns didn't offend me, as evidenced by my willingness to write a lengthy response to your arguments. I did find it amusing, as (obviously) I think that you're quite mistaken on a number of these matters but at no point did I say I was laughing at the substance of your viewpoint or arguments, only your talk of money printing fantasy creatures. What did offend me was you taking umbrage at my tone after you had already engaged in similar behaviour, then using that as a flimsy justification to ignore my points. I understand that being the lone voice on your side can be overwhelming, but it's pretty easy to say "I'm not sure I can respond to that atm, let me do some thinking/reading and I'll get back to you when I'm less busy." I'll be generous and assume you somewhat misread my comment and responded in the heat of the moment. Hopefully we'll be able to resume the discussion at a later time.
 

Jintor

Member
Probably. I'm in favour of its repeal due to how it's been used, namely, political prosecutions based on viewpoints people don't agree with. We have defamation for personal attacks.

However the lawyer in me could see that there could be an 'act', outside of 'political communication' or 'speech' that it might be highly offensive where the section would be appropriate. You'd have to make the arguments though as to why other laws would not be appropriate to apply in the circumstances.

So on balance, I'd prefer to amend s 18D to allow for political arguments or similar in the list of exclusions.

Already exists though, Implied freedom of Political Communication.

Iirc though what if media conduct doesn't specifically defame individuals but goes against groups? I'm not sure defamation applies in such circumstances...

Btw did we discuss Pyne's new news on Tertiary education? Quotas are back in and student amenity fees are out. But it's not a backflip because it's for quality!
 

Arksy

Member
Already exists though, Implied freedom of Political Communication.

Iirc though what if media conduct doesn't specifically defame individuals but goes against groups? I'm not sure defamation applies in such circumstances...

It doesn't. However in Andrew Bolt's article in which he was litigated against, he did name members of that group directly. Defamation was definitely available to the plaintiffs in that case. It was a political stunt however, as they asked for no remedy.

More generally though, we have laws against incitement to violence. That covers people creating a lynch mob against a group.

The money isnt even going to unions this time but they still want Universities to get screwed >_<

This might come as a shock, but I vastly prefer compulsory student unionism to the student services and amenities fee. I run a film club at a university and I've seen first hand how clubs and student services get screwed by the University who funnel the money into their own pet projects.
 

markot

Banned
Bolt was attacking individuals to stigmatise an entire group of people.

Alsoooooooooo

How could you prefer mandatory unionism?
 

Jintor

Member
It doesn't. However in Andrew Bolt's article in which he was litigated against, he did name members of that group directly. Defamation was definitely available to the plaintiffs in that case. It was a political stunt however, as they asked for no remedy.

More generally though, we have laws against incitement to violence. That covers people creating a lynch mob against a group.

So you'd be free to spew evidenceless hate and vitriol against non-specific persons so long as you stop short of demanding they be hung under a tree?
 

Arksy

Member
So you'd be free to spew evidenceless hate and vitriol against non-specific persons so long as you stop short of demanding they be hung under a tree?

I don't buy your premise. It's not simply 18C that's stopping that from occurring.

Bolt was attacking individuals to stigmatise an entire group of people.

Alsoooooooooo

How could you prefer mandatory unionism?

It was a lot cheaper for one, $100 a year, compared to $225. The Unions are at least student run organisations who are basically there to make life better for students. The money from the SSAF isn't necessarily going into things like clubs, infrastructure and events. It's the university that gets to allocate it however they wish.
 
This might come as a shock, but I vastly prefer compulsory student unionism to the student services and amenities fee. I run a film club at a university and I've seen first hand how clubs and student services get screwed by the University who funnel the money into their own pet projects.

Are you sure it's the University screwing the clubs and services out of the funds? The amount a lot of student unions (on both sides of politics) are throwing into partisan political groups outside the university has been fairly significant, not to mention things like what Fresh were doing at UQ.
 
Dm6eoX9.png


More money for Telstra.
 

Arksy

Member
Preferring compulsory student unionism for selfish reasons while attacking everything else on moral grounds. Just what?

Holy shit. How is it selfish? My club doesn't receive a cent of grant money either way. We're completely self-sufficient. God damn stop making baseless accusations. Not to mention that we're not affiliated with the Union at all.
 
You may have missed the government's ridiculous attempts at giving a lot more power to the media regulator last year.

No I didn't miss it, I just wouldn't characterise it as ridiculous or describe their attempts in such a 1984esque and sensational way as you did in your prior post.

Can you tell me what was so offensive about it? It seemed to me to do no more harm than bring print regulations in line with the current regulation of broadcast media.

I am incredibly happy to engage in honest debate, I'm trying to engage with as many people as I can. It can be a bit difficult to keep track of things when you're engaging with 10+ people at once like I am. I'm also sorry if saying magical unicorns offended you. I thought it was incredibly condescending when you said my arguments were providing you with a lot of amusement. Which to me said you were basically laughing in my face. Like I said just before, I'm engaging with a lot of people here so forgive me if I chose not to engage with one person on the basis I'm simply getting mocked and derided.

Oh come on. I find it pretty telling that this is the one discussion you won't respond to and can keep track of the x number of discussions except this one!
 

Dead Man

Member
Holy shit. How is it selfish? My club doesn't receive a cent of grant money either way. We're completely self-sufficient. God damn stop making baseless accusations. Not to mention that we're not affiliated with the Union at all.

Mate, the first reason you said was to save yourself money.
 

Arksy

Member
Oh come on. I find it pretty telling that this is the one discussion you won't respond to and can keep track of the x number of discussions except this one!

Yeah. No. From here on in I'll only be responding to people who genuinely want to engage in actual debate, as opposed to hurling abuse. I won't be responding to anyone who is so vitriolic and full of hate that they are pathologically incapable of having a debate with someone they disagree with without getting personal. Like Dead Man above with his constant attempts at character assassination, A More Normal Bird meeting any argument I put forth with derision and Lexi who basically said that anyone who disagrees with her is scum. I'll only be setting the record straight...like below..

Luckily for me there are plenty of people here who take alternative views who don't make it personal.

Mate, the first reason you said was to save yourself money.

The actual quote was 'it was a lot cheaper for one' there was nothing at all mentioned about any preference of my own to pay less or more with respect to my own financial position. The general logic that would normally flow from that line is paying less is better, generally, for everyone. If you were to follow my arguments you'd realise the reason I prefer compulsory student unionism is that there is at least a viable nexus between the 'taxation', the forceful appropriation of money, and the 'representation', which is established because the Union represents students and we can affect change through elections. Everything else follows from that fact because we can't actually hold the University accountable for that spending, while we can at least hold the Union accountable and we can have our say into where that money goes.

The amount of effort you put into twisting my arguments and words in order to try to discredit me is incredible.
 

Dead Man

Member
The actual quote was 'it was a lot cheaper for one' there was nothing at all mentioned about any preference of my own to pay less or more with respect to my own financial position. The general logic that would normally flow from that line is paying less is better, generally, for everyone. If you were to follow my arguments you'd realise the reason I prefer compulsory student unionism is that there is at least a viable nexus between the 'taxation', the forceful appropriation of money, and the 'representation', which is established because the Union represents students and we can affect change through elections. Everything else follows from that fact because we can't actually hold the University accountable for that spending, while we can at least hold the Union accountable and we can have our say into where that money goes.

The amount of effort you put into twisting my arguments and words in order to try to discredit me is incredible.
If I misunderstood your argument, then apologies, it seemed the gist of it was that compulsory unionism worked better for you, so you were in favour.

Other than that, get off it, you have been quite happy to misrepresent other peoples arguments.

Edit: Something lighter - Pyne to become another woman in the cabinet
Christopher Pyne is to undergo gender realignment surgery so there are more women in Tony Abbott&#8217;s cabinet.

Pyne has expressed concern that he&#8217;s not as much of a sex symbol as Fiona Scott, but hopes the operation could put paid to that, whilst showing how the government is in touch with women.

&#8216;I&#8217;ll be able to tell Tony exactly what it feels like to be a woman,&#8217; said Pyne. &#8216;We could ask an actual woman, but they tend to get a bit hysterical.&#8217;

&#8216;Christopher, or should I say Christina, is perfect for the job,&#8217; said Tony Abbott. &#8216;We need a man with experience to tell us how a woman thinks, and he&#8217;s more than up to the task&#8217;.

The move will make Pyne the first cabinet minister to undergo a sex change operation. Alexander Downer skirted with the idea in 1996, but never got further than the fishnet stockings. He cut the operation short but his voice never fully recovered.

The Prime Minister said over time they expect to have more women in cabinet as more men in blue ties come forward, prepared to have the operation in exchange for career advancement.

17aaacb79bed10f6968c2f5b068577ea.jpeg
 

Arksy

Member
If I misunderstood your argument, then apologies, it seemed the gist of it was that compulsory unionism worked better for you, so you were in favour.

Other than that, get off it, you have been quite happy to misrepresent other peoples arguments.

I've built my fair share of straw men, but the personal attacks are pretty much only going one way.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Yeah. No. From here on in I'll only be responding to people who genuinely want to engage in actual debate, as opposed to hurling abuse. I won't be responding to anyone who is so vitriolic and full of hate that they are pathologically incapable of having a debate with someone they disagree with without getting personal. Like Dead Man above with his constant attempts at character assassination, A More Normal Bird meeting any argument I put forth with derision and Lexi who basically said that anyone who disagrees with her is scum. I'll only be setting the record straight...like below..
I honestly have no idea when I've ever derided or mocked you. Did you miss my post on this page? You decided to simplify my points to "printing money and hoping a magical unicorn will pay the yields on government debt" (paraphrased), I responded by saying that your condescending tone amused me. If a bit of light-hearted snark is too much for you to handle then perhaps you shouldn't be dishing it out? On any point I've debated with you I've attempted to thoroughly explain my views. In fact, I'm so eager to have an alternative viewpoint in this thread that I've deliberately held back in discussions with both yourself and Ventron. At least now I know not to bother.
 

Arksy

Member
I honestly have no idea when I've ever derided or mocked you. Did you miss my post on this page? You decided to simplify my points to "printing money and hoping a magical unicorn will pay the yields on government debt" (paraphrased), I responded by saying that your condescending tone amused me. If a bit of light-hearted snark is too much for you to handle then perhaps you shouldn't be dishing it out? On any point I've debated with you I've attempted to thoroughly explain my views. In fact, I'm so eager to have an alternative viewpoint in this thread that I've deliberately held back in discussions with both yourself and Ventron. At least now I know not to bother.

My apologies, I misunderstood your post. I'd be happy to debate going forward, but I'll need a bit to reply to your behemoth of an argument.
 

Arksy

Member
Yes, the government pays the interest on those bonds. No, that does not have to be financed by the taxpayers. If you'd read my earlier post you'd know that I'm aware of the inflationary limits on government spending, in fact, it is probably the most significant economic constraint there is (along with debt sustainability, which ties back into it). If the government is spending on improving the productive capacity of the nation, i.e. the capability to absorb extra liquidity and put it to use, how does inflation spiral out of control? This isn't digging holes and filling them back up again. Once again, bond sales are simply a means of altering the make-up of financial assets in the private sector.

I'll be honest. I'm not entirely sure how you come to the conclusion that the taxpayers don't finance the government. You seem to be talking about seigniorage right? (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a constitutional law scholar, not a reserve banking expert. Kind of out of my depths a bit here) The ability of the government to make and sell currency? If the government is making a 20c piece for 4c, it's making a 16c profit or tax on that coin when it is issued. I would argue that the process of seigniorage is inflationary and a really bad way for the government to raise revenue. It's also a tax (at least of sorts) because the government is still collecting revenue. The money is still coming externally. We saw what happened in Zimbabwe when the government was raising half of its revenue through that process.

Of course you could be talking about the measures the RBA could take in order to deleverage debts such as by paying it down, inflating your way out of it or defaulting on your obligations. I accept that the second option out of the three is an option, which would in effect guarantee endless money for infrastructure projects, I would argue that it attracts a whole number of other problems, such as those facing the US right now. Unlike the US however, we can't afford to have effectively no interest rates. We're not known as the bastion of financial security like they are. It disincentivises thrift, foreign investment and punishes savers (especially problematic given our mandatory saving structure, superannuation).

So you could in effect create as much money as you wanted for projects like the NBN, I just don't see why the consequences of such moves should be something we would want to bear. Especially when normal taxation, the kind where you collect money from private industries and the public at large to service the normal operation of government, wouldn't produce anywhere near the same types of consequences when adequately managed and used sparingly. (

I find it kind of funny (and kind of sad) that it's generally people who favour smaller government that also think the government's default fiscal position should be take money out of the private sector and give it nothing in return. Sure it will drive down wages and increase unemployment which I guess is a positive for those at the higher end of capital accumulation, but most seem to be unaware that the concept of a government surplus as an arbiter of economic management was more of a Trojan horse aimed at decreasing the overall size of government, the idea being that if governments were to achieve surplus they would have to cut spending and that gradually they would shrink as societies weaned themselves off. That didn't really eventuate in most cases and now we're left with mid to large sized governments chasing what in many instances is a pointless goal just because it sounds good.

I don't really agree with your premise here. I don't personally believe that the government's default fiscal position should be to take money out of the economy for no purpose. My position as that Taxation should be capped at the point of revenue the government requires to perform its functions. My default position is that the state has nothing except what it takes from its citizenry so any surplus should either be invested or given back to the people, with a commensurate tax cut in order to not needlessly take money out of the economy.
 

Jintor

Member
tumblr_mtnyhwtAVP1qc2lzro1_r1_500.jpg


I know, i know, it's not exactly a substantive argument, it's just a really dumb quote that he may or may not have thrown out the window by now, it's just a nicely laid out thingymagig okay?
 

Lafiel

と呼ぶがよい
Well... he isn't completely wrong there...

But he is wrong about the equal representation part.

I'm pretty sure that whole quote is wrong.;p

No evidence suggests woman have different aptitudes and abilities from men.
 

Jintor

Member
I heard they can breathe underwater for 30% longer and have 50% faster movement speed in certain situations, but their wind resistance is halved and they don't have access to the shaman class.
 

Arksy

Member
I'm very much looking forward to Gillard's autobiography. Hopefully there will be a few dozen bombshells, dummy spits, etc.
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
I'll be honest. I'm not entirely sure how you come to the conclusion that the taxpayers don't finance the government. You seem to be talking about seigniorage right? (Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm a constitutional law scholar, not a reserve banking expert. Kind of out of my depths a bit here) The ability of the government to make and sell currency? If the government is making a 20c piece for 4c, it's making a 16c profit or tax on that coin when it is issued. I would argue that the process of seigniorage is inflationary and a really bad way for the government to raise revenue. It's also a tax (at least of sorts) because the government is still collecting revenue. The money is still coming externally. We saw what happened in Zimbabwe when the government was raising half of its revenue through that process.

Of course you could be talking about the measures the RBA could take in order to deleverage debts such as by paying it down, inflating your way out of it or defaulting on your obligations. I accept that the second option out of the three is an option, which would in effect guarantee endless money for infrastructure projects, I would argue that it attracts a whole number of other problems, such as those facing the US right now. Unlike the US however, we can't afford to have effectively no interest rates. We're not known as the bastion of financial security like they are. It disincentivises thrift, foreign investment and punishes savers (especially problematic given our mandatory saving structure, superannuation).

So you could in effect create as much money as you wanted for projects like the NBN, I just don't see why the consequences of such moves should be something we would want to bear. Especially when normal taxation, the kind where you collect money from private industries and the public at large to service the normal operation of government, wouldn't produce anywhere near the same types of consequences when adequately managed and used sparingly. (

I don't really agree with your premise here. I don't personally believe that the government's default fiscal position should be to take money out of the economy for no purpose. My position as that Taxation should be capped at the point of revenue the government requires to perform its functions. My default position is that the state has nothing except what it takes from its citizenry so any surplus should either be invested or given back to the people, with a commensurate tax cut in order to not needlessly take money out of the economy.

Forewarning, I'm not particularly happy with what I've written below, it's late. Post-Keynesian Monetary Theory, Chartalism and Modern Monetary Theory (MMT) are all schools/sub-schools/movements which acknowledge/deal with these concepts, if you're ever really bored. I'm skipping over the external sector and if/how banking sector finances are endo- or exo-genous.

What I'm discussing is not seigniorage but rather the mechanisms by which government spending is actually executed. Currently, the government spends by crediting private bank accounts, which is basically as close to a resource free transaction as you can get. In Australia, regulations have been introduced which require the government to issue debt to match any deficit spending. This in itself gives away that the government is not revenue constrained; if the regulation is the reason the government must issue debt, ergo the debt is not required to spend. This is a political constraint, not an economic one (note that I'm not necessarily debating whether it's a good regulation or not, only pointing out what it means for the nature of government spending). As I previously mentioned, the actual flows of taxation, debt and spending are distinct. This may seem moot/esoteric, but it's helpful for understanding where the mainstream conception diverges from reality. So if bonds do not finance spending it must be taxes right? Once again, there is an almost stupidly simple factor which shows that calling the relationship between spending and revenue "financing" or "funding" is both incorrect and an oversimplification. If the government is the monopoly issuer of the currency, how did the money that the taxes are paid in make its way to the private sector in the first place? By government spending. Obviously, something cannot finance another thing that precedes it temporally. So taxes and bond sales don't finance government spending per se, rather they provide room in the economy for the government to spend. As an aside, in the US, taxes paid in physical cash are shredded or burnt. Like, with fire. You can get shredded notes as a souvenir. Anyway, this flowchart explains it more simply than I'm doing currently:

vertical_horizontal_full.gif


If the government runs a surplus on any given day, then competition for reserves increases, at which point the central bank (RBA) must intervene in order to keep the interest rate at the desired level. In order to do so, it buys back bonds by simply creating money. OTOH, if the government has credited bank accounts by an amount larger than the quantity of reserves it has withdrawn (tax) then it has created net financial assets (which once again, are backed by debt even though they technically don't have to be, what with being created before the debt itself is issued and all). So whilst in the short term deficits decrease the interest rate by reducing competition for reserves at the end of the day, in the long run the finances they create act like any others. For thought experiments, it can be helpful to detach from the bottom line entirely. Imagine that instead of directly selling bonds to "finance" the NBN (in actuality just ensuring that the total amount of active financial assets remains unchanged) the government simply created the money to pay for it, letting the RBA deal with the consequences. Let's also imagine that the NBN was created on time and within budget (I know you're probably smirking by now but it's a thought experiment) and that the capacity it added was greater than both the demand generated by its construction and its initial use. What is the inflationary consequence? If it is financed by bond sales and becomes a highly productive asset, what are the implications for debt sustainability?

Incidentally, what is often overlooked are the major problems in Zimbabwe which were caused by social policy, which redistributed productive capital into the hands of those who did not know how to use it. This is basically a supply side reform which drastically reduces productive capacity, which obviously causes inflation.
zimbabwe_demand.jpg


As for the last point, I wasn't necessarily talking about yourself, but I don't think you'll disagree that surplus fetishism is more common on the right/conservative side of politics. However, as you may now be aware if I've been convincing enough (I suspect I haven't, it was a long, hot day) your default position "that the state has nothing except what it takes from its citizenry" isn't quite accurate, seeing as everything the citizenry has (in financial terms) came from the state in the first place.
 

Bernbaum

Member
I was going to visit Tasmania sometime in the next few years to visit TDM, but I think I won't now. I don't want to soil Australia's lands with my *American* aptitudes, abilities, and interests.

Well we've got a whole section of the country cordoned off for people who want to enjoy firearms, irresponsible drinking culture and ten gallon hats.

Come to Queensland Dax, come to Queensland.
 

Bernbaum

Member
Queensland's political gifts: Pauline Hanson, Clive Palmer, Bob Katter. If you want former coalition members with crazy views that shoot off and make their own wacky parties, then Queensland has you covered.

You're welcome, Australia.
 
Queensland's political gifts: Pauline Hanson, Clive Palmer, Bob Katter. If you want former coalition members with crazy views that shoot off and make their own wacky parties, then Queensland has you covered.

You're welcome, Australia.

Hey! Hey, hey, hey! I bet we have crazier people. You can't beat us in this!

:mad:
 
A

A More Normal Bird

Unconfirmed Member
Queensland's political gifts: Pauline Hanson, Clive Palmer, Bob Katter. If you want former coalition members with crazy views that shoot off and make their own wacky parties, then Queensland has you covered.

You're welcome, Australia.
You're missing the ur-example, Sir Johannes Bjelke-Petersen.
 
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