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Australian film crew attacked by a group of masked immigrants in Stockholm

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KonradLaw

Member
Are you saying they should ban all immigration?

Nah. Just uncontrolled one. Plus probably keep middle eastern migration to minimum, especially since those people will be met only with open hate there. I mean, recently in Poland citizens of city Gdansk were polled if the city is taking in too many refugees. Like 90% said it was taking too many and there wasn't even one single refugee in that city.

Poland as a whole doesn't really have problem with letting migrants in, as long as they're compatible culturally, since there's like one million migrants from Ukraine in Poland right now.

Countries need to control their borders. So they can decide who enters and successfully deport troublemakers.
 

E-flux

Member
do they just let anyone move into european countries? i could be wrong, but here in the US you have to meet certain requirements before they even consider it.

The whole thing here in Europe is screwed up, but if an illegal immigrant pops up in your country you cannot send him back if it would put the person in danger, and now i think finland at least has made a deal where every time Turkey turns an immigrant away Finland takes one for the team or something like that.
 
I can't believe we've come to a point where openly bigoted, prejudiced and racists comments as some presented in this thread are deemed ok, or just "another point of view worthy of discussion". Very sad state of affairs.
Just as fun as the "they deserved" it comments right.

The whole thing here in Europe is screwed up, but if an illegal immigrant pops up in your country you cannot send him back if it would put the person in danger, and now i think finland at least has made a deal where every time Turkey turns an immigrant away Finland takes one for the team or something like that.
The EU made a deal with Turkey. People coming into Greece will be sent back to Turkey. In exchange, the EU is taking a refugee from the refugee camps there. They hope this will discourage the illegal travels and people who are not actual refugees coming in.
 
The police don't go there. Is that why the video in the op shows police in the area?

Such a death of critical thinking
Watch around 11:20 on the Vimeo vid. Police is afraid their presence will provoke people there, so they are not going with the crew further.

If there was police, would you think they'd stand back when people were literally being punched there? If so, that would be even worse.
 
The police don't go there. Is that why the video in the op shows police in the area?

Such a death of critical thinking

There is a difference between a couple of police going to a place and talking to shop owners and a squad of police going there in a van with attack dogs. In a lot of places in the world I'm pretty sure that police patrol more and respond faster to crimes in "nicer" areas where they feel safer and get more cooperation.
 

E-flux

Member
Just as fun as the "they deserved" it comments right.


The EU made a deal with Turkey. People coming into Greece will be sent back to Turkey. In exchange, the EU is taking a refugee from the refugee camps there. They hope this will discourage the illegal travels and people who are not actual refugees coming in.

Oh right, that's how it was. Though i don't see how that will stop people coming in. It's a shame that Saudi Arabia and other rich middle eastern countries haven't taken any refugees. Also i can't imagine what it looks like in Turkey with their staggering amounts of refugees there.
 
Multiculturalism experiment has completely and utterly failed in EU. And there's so many migrants in some western countries that I think it's too late to truly fix it, at least short term. At best you can mitigate the damage and hope some long ambitious projects will fix this in many generations.
That and eastern Europe countries can learn from those mistakes and not let migrants in (not like they would want to go there anyway, so it's mostly about refusing any quotas systems EU would like to push through)

Because a very small percentage of immigrants comes into conflict with the law (which isn't that suprising considering many of those people are very poor) "multiculturism has failed" and we should not let any more migrants in. This is on the same level like the crap you hear from people like Wilders, Breivik and Le Pen. Funnily enough reality is nothing like this. You can post articles after articles about how those immigrants commit crimes and cause trouble, but that does not change the fact that 99% of migrants do not cause any trouble at all, und live peacefully among us.
 

Jumeira

Banned
In Sweden, they cover up criminal incidents caused by or involving immigrants. The Swedish general populace is mostly outraged by this. This has led to the formation of the Sons of Odin movement.

In Russia, when the immigrants tried pulling similar stunts, they were simply beaten to a pulp. When the police finally arrived, they joined in.

Worked way better than covering it up.

These Russians beat the ever living shit out of anyone that isn't white, the fact you even brought it up is as an example is appalling. Migrants live in fear from Kazakhstan and other neighbouring regions as they're not protected by police (as you mentioned). Endorsing it is vile.

Calm down and watch the video. They aren't really masked. Just because it does not fit your agenda, it's not made up. Unless you believe this film crew lied to police and paid those people to attack them.
Sourcing material from a racist publication isn't a basis for discussion. Quite foolish of you honestly.
 
Gemüsepizza;198982982 said:
Because a very small percentage of immigrants comes into conflict with the law (which isn't that suprising considering many of those people are very poor) "multiculturism has failed" and we should not let any more migrants in. This is on the same level like the crap you hear from people like Wilders, Breivik and Le Pen. Funnily enough reality is nothing like this. You can post articles after articles about how those immigrants commit crimes and cause trouble, but that does not change the fact that 99% of migrants do not cause any trouble at all, und live peacefully among us.
I fully agree that it isn't the majority of immigrants. However, it is clear that crime is higher among the immigrant population (and their kids), certainly in neighborhoods as shown in the video here. This has various reasons of course, but I think it is logical to focus on solving those problems first instead of just continuing on like there are no problems and letting more and more people in who will get trapped in that same cycle as the current ones.

I also don't like the screaming of Wilders and will not vote for him, but the other extreme of the leftist parties pretending there are no problems - or that they will magically solve themselves - are not any better.
 

KonradLaw

Member
Gemüsepizza;198982982 said:
Because a very small percentage of immigrants comes into conflict with the law (which isn't that suprising considering many of those people are very poor) "multiculturism has failed" and we should not let any more migrants in. This is on the same level like the crap you hear from people like Wilders, Breivik and Le Pen. Funnily enough reality is nothing like this. You can post articles after articles about how those immigrants commit crimes and cause trouble, but that does not change the fact that 99% of migrants do not cause any trouble at all, und live peacefully among us.

The "Multiculturalism experiment has failed" isn't something that Wilders, Breivik or Le Pen has said. It's Merkel who said that.
And a large number of migrants come into conflict with law, many many times larger than those among native population. This group also is less educated, poorer, more prone to extremism and unemployment. And of course, this isn't all their own fault. THe blame is shared between people and goverment, but this doesn't change the reality and how there doesn't seem to be any good solutions to those problems.

Plus it's not just the crimes. Multiculturalism has failed, because it assumed it would result in some sort of diverse utopia, where all those vastly different cultures would coexist peacefully, fully respecing each other, interacting with themselves on regular basis, forming a new kind of society. Kind of a more advanced version of USA. But that turned out to be simply impossible. Instead what happened was that a group of migrants didn't integrate at all and instead created a sort of parrell society to native one, and as times goes by both of those societies are more and more hostile against eachother.

EU countries foolishly forgot that integration and assimilation is hard and painful process Even for good people who want to integrate and are given enourmous support. If you don't bassicaly force integration by throwing those people alone inside native populaton, it simply won't happen. Moving to different country, different culture and different language is traumatic experience. If you allow such person to seek solace among poeple from his orginal culture he will. The only way to suceed is to make such solace impossible. But in many western countries it's too late for that. Decades of goverments allowing people to not integrate are legacy that won't go away in any reasonable time frame. Wilders or Le Pen can scream all they want, but the migrant population in their countries is so big that their "let's throw everyone out" aproach would be impossible to achieve.

That said, just because some countries screwed up like this doesn't mean that everybody in EU should join them in their problems. There's nothing wrong with a citizens of certain countries who wish to remain homogenous. Diversity and multiculturalism isn't an obligation, especially when it's obvious that much more open and richer countries are screwing it up.
 

Harlequin

Member
That said, just becuause some countries screwed up like this doesn't mean that everybody in EU should join them in their problems. There's nothing wrong with a citizens of certain countries who wish to remain homogenous. Diversity and multiculturalism isn't an obligation, especially when it's obvious that much more open and richer countries are screwing it up.

While I agree that most countries in the EU are and have been failing at properly integrating immigrants and that we need to come up with new solutions to deal with that, I do think that it's unacceptable that certain countries which receive substantial financial support from the EU are blocking any kind of attempt to find a unified European solution to the refugee crisis. It's basically like saying "sure, we'll take your money but we don't want to do anything to earn it".
 

Ashes

Banned
In Sweden, they cover up criminal incidents caused by or involving immigrants. The Swedish general populace is mostly outraged by this. This has led to the formation of the Sons of Odin movement.

In Russia, when the immigrants tried pulling similar stunts, they were simply beaten to a pulp. When the police finally arrived, they joined in.

Worked way better than covering it up.

Did it now?
 

KonradLaw

Member
While I agree that most countries in the EU are and have been failing at properly integrating immigrants and that we need to come up with new solutions to deal with that, I do think that it's unacceptable that certain countries which receive substantial financial support from the EU are blocking any kind of attempt to find a unified European solution to the refugee crisis. It's basically like saying "sure, we'll take your money but we don't want to do anything to earn it".

No, they just don't want to do this particular thing to earn it. Just because they are recieving money from EU doesn't mean they have to completely give up their sovereignity and ignore wishes of local populations. Those countries already did more than enough to earn it. They've opened up their markets to older EU countries, created heavy limitations on their companies, allowed western countries to take over a big portions of their economies and they've bleed some of their best and brighest into those countries too.

I do think that Eastern European countries should help with the crisis. But this should be limited to mostly fincial/manpower support, as well as helping with closure of borders. They definitely shoudln't agree to any automatic quota system, as this would be complete suicide and allow Germany to bassicaly not work on any solution to crisis and instead just ignore it for couple more years, after which the whole continent would be screwed.

When it comes to taking in any migrants Eastern European countries all fully in their right to take a small ammount and pre-vet each of those people beforehand, as well as only give them temporary asylum and send them back the moment the war in their origin country ends. They definitely do not have any obligation to turn themselves into eastern version of Sweden.
 

KonradLaw

Member
Nothing wrong if some American citizens feel that way?

Well..native american citizens never really did have much choice, did they? And if modern americans would decide they don't want any more migrants they're in their right to do so. It's their country after all.
That said, America seems to be doing far better at this than EU. Maybe it's because USA never was homogenous in itself. It was a nation of migrants and this allowed for lessening of cultural clashes. Plus I think the fact that there's far more welfare support for migrants in USA also has positive effect on integration.
And american police is far scarier than european one.
 
While I agree that most countries in the EU are and have been failing at properly integrating immigrants and that we need to come up with new solutions to deal with that, I do think that it's unacceptable that certain countries which receive substantial financial support from the EU are blocking any kind of attempt to find a unified European solution to the refugee crisis. It's basically like saying "sure, we'll take your money but we don't want to do anything to earn it".
We should have closed our eastern borders long before taking in any of those parasites into the union, now they refuse to integrate and adhere to our values and are just a drain to our resources. And don't get me started on the criminality rates they bring. /s

At this rate the next Breivik will be hailed as a european hero, going where no police would dare to go.

In unrelated news, close to me, a group of young african muslims was taken into an old convent for shelter during the winter, helping the monks there with their groceries. But no racists turned up to film them.
 

Yeoman

Member
That said, just because some countries screwed up like this doesn't mean that everybody in EU should join them in their problems. There's nothing wrong with a citizens of certain countries who wish to remain homogenous. Diversity and multiculturalism isn't an obligation, especially when it's obvious that much more open and richer countries are screwing it up.
What exactly do you mean by the term homogenous?
 

Henkka

Banned
In unrelated news, close to me, a group of young african muslims was taken into an old convent for shelter during the winter, helping the monks there with their groceries. But no racists turned up to film them.

So you're saying not all immigrants are bad?

Wow, what an enlightened and unique point of view that no one has considered before. Truly, the only problem is our own intolerance. I'm sure Molenbeek would be paradise on earth if it weren't for all those pesky Belgian racists.
 
We should have closed our eastern borders long before taking in any of those parasites into the union, now they refuse to integrate and adhere to our values and are just a drain to our resources. And don't get me started on the criminality rates they bring. /s

At this rate the next Breivik will be hailed as a european hero, going where no police would dare to go.

In unrelated news, close to me, a group of young african muslims was taken into an old convent for shelter during the winter, helping the monks there with their groceries. But no racists turned up to film them.
Actually, good arguments can be made that countries like Bulgaria and Romania should not have joined the EU so soon, while we are still in the process of getting countries like Poland, the Baltics and others to the same economic standards as other European countries.
 

KonradLaw

Member
What exactly do you mean by the term homogenous?

Usually it's about being dominated by one culture or ethnicity. Depends on country really. Japanese for example care more about ethnicity, while slavic countries' citizens care mostly about culture.
 

Yeoman

Member
Usually it's about being dominated by one culture or ethnicity. Depends on country really. Japanese for example care more about ethnicity, while slavic countries' citizens care mostly about culture.
Dominated? Mostly care about culture? You sound like you support the notion idea that certain groups shouldn't mix to me.
 

Midas

Member
Advocating for beating immigrants? Really?

It's truly sad to see Europe regressing. I wonder how backwards they will be in a decade.

Yeah, shit's getting crazy. Extremely fast as well. I think people forget how much their parents and grand parents fought for their democratic rights and equality. It's scary to see how fast things can change if you're just looking away for a while.
 

KonradLaw

Member
Dominated? Mostly care about culture? You sound like you support the notion idea that certain groups shouldn't mix to me.

I support the notion certain groups shouldn't be forced to mix. Big difference. By trying to do it by force all you will breed is hate.
 

KonradLaw

Member
Yeah, shit's getting crazy. Extremely fast as well. I think people forget how much their parents and grand parents fought for their democratic rights and equality. It's scary to see how fast things can change if you're just looking away for a while.

They aren't forgetting. Instead they're terrified that because of migrations those hard earned rights and values might not be there anymore for their children or grandchildren.

They're probably overreacting, but imagine you are genuinelly afraid of that happening and you see all the mainstream parties completly ignore the issue and you worries. Wouldn't you be tempted to turn towards radical groups? At least they're not ignoring you. This is the grave mistake western european political parties made. They've been ignoring the problems, even forcing media to cover them up and now they've woken up in reality where more and more people are feeling so scared and abandoned that they've running into the arms of some really dangerous people.
 

ViviOggi

Member
In Sweden, they cover up criminal incidents caused by or involving immigrants. The Swedish general populace is mostly outraged by this. This has led to the formation of the Sons of Odin movement.

In Russia, when the immigrants tried pulling similar stunts, they were simply beaten to a pulp. When the police finally arrived, they joined in.

Worked way better than covering it up.
Great stuff sounds like quality police work right there
 
Yeah, shit's getting crazy. Extremely fast as well. I think people forget how much their parents and grand parents fought for their democratic rights and equality. It's scary to see how fast things can change if you're just looking away for a while.
Yes, and we have fought for things like equality for women and LGTB group - fights that are still ongoing unfortunately in large parts of Europe. Yet now we see gay people being bullied and beaten in refugee centers and gay couples being shouted at and afraid again in some cities here. I think we have been a bit too tolerant of intolerance of others.

Violence is never the answer - and we certainly shouldn't look at Russia of all places for dealing with minorities -, but just accepting people here that will not share the same views on those freedoms and rights leads to clashes and trouble.
 

Christhor

Member
As a kid my family went to Sweden every summer as a vacation, I'm never going to go there of my own free will again. At this point I'm hoping that Sweden collapses quickly, it's starting to get painful to watch their downfall.
 
Let Molenbeek be the biggest example of immigration gone completely wrong with faults being made by both immigrants and the original populace/government

Nobody wants a Molenbeek in their country, right?
 

knkng

Member
Yes, and we have fought for things like equality for women and LGTB group - fights that are still ongoing unfortunately in large parts of Europe. Yet now we see gay people being bullied and beaten in refugee centers and gay couples being shouted at and afraid again in some cities here. I think we have been a bit too tolerant of intolerance of others.

I really want to echo this statement.

I really hate this crooked hierarchy of social issues, and the complete cannibalization of justice that goes along with it. If the slightest amount of violence, sexism, or homophobia happens in a scenario that people are comfortable with (such as within a workplace), people will be up in arms, but when you add immigration, religion and other sensitive topics to the mix, everybody backs off and starts with the defensive comments.

I'm sorry, but if you truly believe in an issue, then just stand behind it, regardless of circumstance. I'm tired of all the fairweather bullshit and victim blaming. "Violence is wrong, but you can't criticize an immigrant or you're a racist!" "Homophobia is wrong, but you can't criticize Islam or you're an Islamophobe!" Fuck off with this shit.

PS: I'm not condoning retaliatory measures, I'm just sick of the "I have deemed this discussion racist!" tripe attempting to stifle any conversation.
 

Nivash

Member
As a kid my family went to Sweden every summer as a vacation, I'm never going to go there of my own free will again. At this point I'm hoping that Sweden collapses quickly, it's starting to get painful to watch their downfall.

If that's your attitude, good riddance. We'll continue living our lives and you know, not collapse, in the meantime.
 

chocoedd

Member
Let Molenbeek be the biggest example of immigration gone completely wrong with faults being made by both immigrants and the original populace/government

Nobody wants a Molenbeek in their country, right?

So what is the solution when you have a "Molenbeek" in your country? Drive them out? Build a wall? Become a homogenous country?
 
As a kid my family went to Sweden every summer as a vacation, I'm never going to go there of my own free will again. At this point I'm hoping that Sweden collapses quickly, it's starting to get painful to watch their downfall.

fWx327.gif
 

Henkka

Banned
So what is the solution when you have a "Molenbeek" in your country? Drive them out? Build a wall? Become a homogenous country?

There may be no solution. The focus for most countries should be prevention and mitigation. Immigrants should be evenly spread, not segregated into their own areas.
 
As a kid my family went to Sweden every summer as a vacation, I'm never going to go there of my own free will again. At this point I'm hoping that Sweden collapses quickly, it's starting to get painful to watch their downfall.
I think Sweden is still a beautiful country and would love to visit it sometime. My grand parents went just recently and had a great time enjoying the nature and views there. This is like saying you will never visit America because they have bad gang violence in Detroit and Chicago.

So what is the solution when you have a "Molenbeek" in your country? Drive them out? Build a wall? Become a homogenous country?
Preferably measures will be taken before it gets too far, instead of being ignored like we do too much in Europe.
 

chocoedd

Member
There may be no solution. The focus for most countries should be prevention and mitigation. Immigrants should be evenly spread, not segregated into their own areas.

That'd be bad if there's no solution. I don't know about segregation, maybe in economical terms not in geographical terms? Because in America for example there' are chinese towns, jewish neighbourhood, amish villages and people fine with that.
 

Gutek

Member
There may be no solution. The focus for most countries should be prevention and mitigation. Immigrants should be evenly spread, not segregated into their own areas.

Sorry, but people should be free to live wherever they want.
 

patapuf

Member
So what is the solution when you have a "Molenbeek" in your country? Drive them out? Build a wall? Become a homogenous country?

When you have one it's already too late, and "solutions" will take a long time and likely be highly specific to the particular city it's in.

You don't want the situation to rise in the first place.

Sorry, but people should be free to live wherever they want.

Yes and no, i'm not sure if that was case in molenbeek but in many other "Bad neighborhoods" with segregated populations those came about because for exampel - all the social housing the municipality paid for was in the same area. These are not places one choses, it's what your are given. Similarily, with smarter city planning choices you can avoid at least some of the reasons for insular communites to emerge, without "forcing" people to move somewhere else. It's not even something that's just about immigrants.

It's also much worse for integration if you live in your own segregated community, unless you think there isn't any need for assimilation, you want to avoid those becoming too big.
 
No, they just don't want to do this particular thing to earn it. Just because they are recieving money from EU doesn't mean they have to completely give up their sovereignity and ignore wishes of local populations. Those countries already did more than enough to earn it. They've opened up their markets to older EU countries, created heavy limitations on their companies, allowed western countries to take over a big portions of their economies and they've bleed some of their best and brighest into those countries too.

I do think that Eastern European countries should help with the crisis. But this should be limited to mostly fincial/manpower support, as well as helping with closure of borders. They definitely shoudln't agree to any automatic quota system, as this would be complete suicide and allow Germany to bassicaly not work on any solution to crisis and instead just ignore it for couple more years, after which the whole continent would be screwed.

When it comes to taking in any migrants Eastern European countries all fully in their right to take a small ammount and pre-vet each of those people beforehand, as well as only give them temporary asylum and send them back the moment the war in their origin country ends. They definitely do not have any obligation to turn themselves into eastern version of Sweden.

Totally agree, I fully support the right of the newer Eastern EU countries to refuse refugee resettlement. It is totally undemocratic to force countries to take on refugees against their will, it is also totally wrong to attempt to economically blackmail then into doing so. (In any case I would imagine most countries would rather have no more EU development cash then be forced to take in refugees as that latter will have long term social implications/costs).
 

Christhor

Member
I think Sweden is still a beautiful country and would love to visit it sometime. My grand parents went just recently and had a great time enjoying the nature and views there. This is like saying you will never visit America because they have bad gang violence in Detroit and Chicago.

Not beautiful enough to justify going there over Norway or Denmark. America is a much bigger and more diverse country than Sweden, you can't really compare all the no-go zones in Sweden to those in America.
 

Nivash

Member
I suppose, but... Isn't that how Molenbeek came about? There must be ways to prevent that sort of thing. I'm not smart enough, though.

There are both carrots and sticks that lead to the creation of segregated areas like Molenbeek. Yes, it's true that many actively go to live there because they want to be around relatives and friends, people who speak their language and people with similar backgrounds. This is understandable. Everyone does this. But it's equally true that they rarely have a choice: these areas are very often the only areas they have access to and that they can afford. I can only speak for Sweden by experience, but over here your options are waiting for 5-10 years to get an apartment or buying a condo that will cost you in the hundreds of thousands, not exactly something easily overcome for someone who just got here. Then there's the fact that we overlooked the segregation for years and years because the population is not overly enthusiastic about living with immigrants. We tried to open a new refugee center in one of the whiter and more affluent areas and people lost their goddamned minds. They held an information briefing and people in the audience were screaming and crying about how the refugees would rape their children. Something similar happened in Stockholm when they tried to counter segregation. Politicians in Solna gave refugees priority in the waiting lists, because the waiting time is roughly 15 years for an apartment, and had their home addresses and phone numbers published on hate sites.

So there's the catch 22. If you try to forcibly relocate immigrants you'll get hate both from immigrants who would rather choose for themselves where to live as well as hate from natives who want absolutely nothing to do with the immigrants.
 
Not beautiful enough to justify going there over Norway or Denmark. America is a much bigger and more diverse country than Sweden, you can't really compare all the no-go zones in Sweden to those in America.

Shitty neighborhoods shouldn't ruin your perception of a country, otherwise all of the Western world is doomed. Sweden is still a great place, which people I know who have actually been there have confirmed. How do you spread people out? It's where the jobs are or the affordable housing is, so they stay there. It's human nature as well to segregate yourself so it's difficult to overcome that element, I live near to a neighborhood where the population is 90% Indian/Pakistani and they don't mix with anyone else, so I have first hand experience, hell, my uncle moved to Singapore because he wanted to live amongst more Asians.
 
I suppose, but... Isn't that how Molenbeek came about? There must be ways to prevent that sort of thing. I'm not smart enough, though.

Very simple. Ensure full employment through tax and spend. The problems we have are because of economic segregation and lack of opportunity, not because of ethnicity or culture
 

amanset

Member
Totally agree, I fully support the right of the newer Eastern EU countries to refuse refugee resettlement. It is totally undemocratic to force countries to take on refugees against their will, it is also totally wrong to attempt to economically blackmail then into doing so. (In any case I would imagine most countries would rather have no more EU development cash then be forced to take in refugees as that latter will have long term social implications/costs).

They didn't have to join the EU. If you decide to then you have to take the good with the bad.
 
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