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[singingsamus]

So what is the solution when you have a "Molenbeek" in your country? Drive them out? Build a wall? Become a homogenous country?

building a wall is impossible and would also impact on innocent people living there (i am convinced that there are also people living there trying to make the best of their day-to-day lives)

drive them out? let me make the question a fairly confrontational one (not specifically to you, but to everyone, including me) : say your living in a place and not that far from you is a neighborhood, there is a very high likelihood that people live in that neighborhood that are going to make a bomb and blow it up at an uncertain time at an uncertain place not far from you

you have a high probability that you will survive this blast because you don't happen to be there, but it could be you or someone else or someone's child or someone's wive or... will die of it because it comes so sudden, wouldn't you want to limit the possibility that that bomb will go off as much as possible? doesn't that mean that you want to go to the source of that possibility? and how strongly do you want to go to that source?

we in our democratic Europe are going to be severely tested in how far we are willing to go to protect ourselves, because those IS terrorists sure as hell don't give a fuck about going too far

i wouldn't mind seeing the army/government drive them out, desperate times request desperate measures, i reckon they know who are IS sympathizers (just as they know who went over there in Syria to fight and let them come back, as if they were allowed to go on a little trip for some fun torture and murder and then come back, like if on sick leave, but that's a slightly different matter)

i'm not talking about innocent people living there and being grouped with the obvious scum living there, hell, leave them alone, i know enough 'people of foreign origin' that are just decent people, give and expect from them the exact same thing as you do of everyone else, but there is a certain group living here that's beyond salvation or re-education, for the sake of political correctness turning a blind eye to their crimes isn't going to solve anything

 

[Inkvoterad]

Lmao, avpixlat. Racist shitbag website.

 

[ClosingADoor]

They didn't have to join the EU. If you decide to then you have to take the good with the bad.

When they joined the Dublin regulation was in effect. Circumstances changed. I agree that Eastern Europe shouldn't just back out and do nothing, but I can also understand that these - already poorer - countries aren't too happy about taking on an extra burden.

 

[Dingens]

Unless they release an uncut version that shows what happened in-between their cuts or right before they got attacked, I'm remaining sceptical.

Sometimes TV stations provoke the shit out of people in order to get the reactions they want for their story. I've seen way to much sensationalist bs that got debunked the second an uncut was released.

 

[amanset]

Not beautiful enough to justify going there over Norway or Denmark. America is a much bigger and more diverse country than Sweden, you can't really compare all the no-go zones in Sweden to those in America.

In Sweden there seems to be an almost need for there to be no-go areas. Honestly. I once discussed such areas with a Swedish friend (I have lived here a long time but am not Swedish) and she got genuinely angry as she equated me saying Sweden has no no-go areas, like my native UK or the likes of the US, with me saying Sweden is boring.

But seriously, I've been to these areas. I've been to Rinkeby. I've been to Rågsved. I've been to the alleged ghetto (according to Swedes I've chatted to) of Malmvägen which they made a fucking reality TV show about trying to sort it out. I live in a suburb that had a terrible reputation in the nineties. When I moved here in the late 1990s I lived in Kista. Let's just say that didn't have a sterling reputation then either.

And none of it is anything close to what I've seen in the UK and US. Or pretty much any of the countries I've been to, frankly.

I ended up in the background on the Portuguese news once. It was when the "riots" were going on and they had sent a news team over to cover them, except they turned up and found that it was massively misrepresented int he news and there was barely a story, so they ended up doing a puff piece about a celebration of some Portuguese national holiday, a celebration for which I was attending with a Portuguese workmate.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

I'd genuinely like to know where the no-go areas in London are so I can actually see if all that stuff is true or not. I don't think there are any genuine 'no-go areas', just shitty impoverished neighborhoods. I would only call a place a no-go area if somehow the residents of a place suddenly all beat the shit out of you just because you walked into the area (I have never seen this happen in my life). About the video, I don't know if the film crew said anything to them before hand to actually turn them violent (not excusing this violent behavior, just wondering about the context).

 

[Nivash]

In Sweden there seems to be an almost need for there to be no-go areas. Honestly. I once discussed such areas with a Swedish friend (I have lived here a long time but am not Swedish) and she got genuinely angry as she equated me saying Sweden has no no-go areas, like my native UK or the likes of the US, with me saying Sweden is boring.

But seriously, I've been to these areas. I've been to Rinkeby. I've been to Rågsved. I've been to the alleged ghetto (according to Swedes I've chatted to) of Malmvägen which they made a fucking reality TV show about trying to sort it out. I live in a suburb that had a terrible reputation in the nineties.

And none of it is anything close to what I've seen in the UK and US. Or pretty much any of the countries I've been to, frankly.

I ended up in the background on the Portuguese news once. It was when the "riots" were going on and they had sent a news team over to cover them, except they turned up and found that it was massively misrepresented int he news and there was barely a story, so they ended up doing a puff piece about a celebration of some Portuguese national holiday, a celebration for which I was attending with a Portuguese workmate.

The prejudices about these areas are almost ludicrous at times, I've heard about people who genuinely asked if they should bring bulletproof vests when going there, but the reality is just so... banal. I mean sure, these are areas with lots of unemployment, organised crime and occasional bursts of unrest. But they're not the borderline-warzones you think about when you hear "no-go area". I've been out to them several times and I'm met every time by the sight of pensioners with walkers and playing children. I have a friend who lives in one of these "no-go areas" and the closest to feeling worried she's ever been was when they found out that a woman living in her block kept literal skeletons in her closet (turned out the woman was just some kind of crazy collector).

Events like in the OP are definitely not representative of the people living there any more than the Sons of Odin are representative of us natives. That said, I strongly disagree with the police attitude towards the no-go areas (which is the only context that term actually fits). It's misguided and hurts the law-abiding people there more than anyone. A constant presence is a much better solution that has a much better chance of establishing a good relationship with the community than occasionally rolling in with full riot gear when something's happened that they can't ignore.

 

[mellz]

So the Australian equivalent of Fox and Avpixlat, a super racist website, go into an area where a lot of PoC live and gets attacked by like two people, while two others try to stop them, I don't see the big problem. The big problem is capitalism and racism limiting peoples lives.

Also there's no "no go areas" in Sweden, what the fuck. I grew up in one these areas and I still go there very often. It's very friendly and I enjoy being there. Let's say you go with some friends to play foootball and the pitch is occupied, you often get invited to join even if you don't know the people. That never happends in middle/upper class white areas.

Of course segregation, unemployment and such are a huge problems, but it has to do with racism and capitalism.

 

[wheeplash]

Hahaha oh my this thread is golden.
It's no surprise these countries are full of aggressive inmigrants after all, people just bend over and take it gladly in the name of ''multiculturalism''.

Good job Europe, good job!

 

[KonradLaw]

They didn't have to join the EU. If you decide to then you have to take the good with the bad.

They don'y have to do anything. No member of EU takes all the bad, everybody has some exceptions or flat out ignores certain elements of the union. Migration is what eastern european countries picked as theirs

 

[SiegfriedFM]

A great scholar of the lowest form of humanity once said that a lie can be turned into truth, if it's just repeated often enough. And it's obvious when supporters of this way of thinking try to spread their lies. Luckily, they aren't (most of the time) imaginative enough to create their own arguments, so instead they use buzzwords that make it very easy to identify them and decide "yup, that's one of them, I'll keep that in mind when I read whatever they have to say".

It's also hilarious how it's always claimed that "the left" has paved the way for all of the problems. First of all, "the left" always includes basically everyone in the "political mainstream" (one of those buzzwords, by the way), but when your viewpoint is somewhere to the far, far right, I suppose everyone else is left of you. Even someone like Merkel who is centre-right at best.

Then they come up with the solution: to solve this problem, all "the left" has to do is abandon its core principles of democracy. Then there's no need for far-right groups. Basically, the left has CREATED the far-right by NOT being far-right themselves. Shame on them!

So they keep spreading their little lies, changing reality little by little (a few years ago noone would even dare use Avpixlat as a serious source, and it's not like the site has changed), hoping that eventually others will succumb to whatever crazy world order they have in mind. And every time someone questions their lies, they get offended. They cry about political correctness (buzzword) and the media conspiracy (buzzword) and claim that their freedom of speech has been limited.

That very freedom which is one of the cornerstones of the democracy they want to erase. Is it hypocrisy or stupidity? I can't tell anymore.

/proud PC mafioso

 

[EdwardTeach]

They didn't have to join the EU. If you decide to then you have to take the good with the bad.

Nonsense it was never on the table when they joined.

 

[ClosingADoor]

A great scholar of the lowest form of humanity once said that a lie can be turned into truth, if it's just repeated often enough. And it's obvious when supporters of this way of thinking try to spread their lies. Luckily, they aren't (most of the time) imaginative enough to create their own arguments, so instead they use buzzwords that make it very easy to identify them and decide "yup, that's one of them, I'll keep that in mind when I read whatever they have to say".

You are saying it is a lie that there are major problems with integration and immigration across Western European countries that have been ignored for decades and we now see the results of?

Yes, lies are being spread from all sides and that is annoying. There are people who take things too far and I would never want to align myself with. But the problems are there.

 

[Dingens]

Nonsense it was never on the table when they joined.

Well it's called European UNION and not European cherry picking association.

Someone should also tell the UK about it some day. But maybe that problem will solve itself

 

[SiegfriedFM]

You are saying it is a lie that there are major problems with integration and immigration across Western European countries that have been ignored for decades and we now see the results of?

Yes, lies are being spread from all sides and that is annoying. There are people who take things too far and I would never want to align myself with. But the problems are there.

Yes, the problems are there, but they won't be solved by abandoning one of the greatest achievements of mankind, like some want. There has to be a middle road. The lie is that it's impossible because of reasons.

It's easy to solve problems by building walls. Put people somewhere else, out of sight, out of mind. Ignore the problem. Once again, ironically, exactly what they accuse others of doing.

 

[ClosingADoor]

Yes, the problems are there, but they won't be solved by abandoning one of the greatest achievements of mankind, like some want. There has to be a middle road. The lie is that it's impossible because of reasons.

It's easy to solve problems by building walls. Put people somewhere else, out of sight, out of mind. Ignore the problem. Once again, ironically, exactly what they accuse others of doing.

I agree that mass deportation as some are saying is not the answer. We are calling them immigrants, but most are actually born here, so that wouldn't even be possible anyway.

However, we can also see that just adding more and more people (like Germany with over a million new people in 1 year) is also not a good option for the long term. There needs to be a balance, so that people coming in can actually adapt to a new society - which is a hard thing to do -, people abusing the system filtered out and sent away again, and not burden the already existing population with high costs and a too fast changing country for them.

 

[EdwardTeach]

Well it's called European UNION and not European cherry picking association.

Someone should also tell the UK about it some day. But maybe that problem will solve itself

Union doesn't imply that you can be bossed around by the other EU members.
In this case Merkel unilaterally invited refugees to come without consulting the other EU member states. It would be totally undemocratic to impose the affect of her decision on the other states.

 

[Moronwind]

So the Australian equivalent of Fox and Avpixlat, a super racist website, go into an area where a lot of PoC live and gets attacked by like two people, while two others try to stop them, I don't see the big problem.

Are you talking about 60 Minutes? I'm guessing the Australian 60 Minutes is somehow related to the American 60 Minutes, one of the most respected news programs in the world. Are these a bunch of low brow racists?

Very simple. Ensure full employment through tax and spend.

Good luck.

 

[Enosh]

Well it's called European UNION and not European cherry picking association.

Someone should also tell the UK about it some day. But maybe that problem will solve itself

where was the will of the UNION when Merkel decided to open the border to millions of people?

 

[More Fun To Compute]

where was the will of the UNION when Merkel decided to open the border to millions of people?

Same place it was when Germany profiteered from fraud around the Greek membership then decided the Greek people should be the ones to be punished for their fraud.

 

[Jimbob Smalls]

No, immigrants are the problem obviously.

Close the borders, round them up, build a wall etc!

Spoiler

I'll leave you all to your racist discussion, bye now

People like you are the real problem with the frantic attempts at trying to stifle the debate with hysterical accusations.

Immigration without assimilation is a recipe for disaster which is what is playing out before millions of helpless eyes.

 

[BennyBlanco]

That guy on the scooter is savage as hell. I had no idea those things went that fast.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

Good luck.

This is what we did in Sweden until the social democratic party lost its way in the nineties

 

[Ravensmash]

I'd genuinely like to know where the no-go areas in London are so I can actually see if all that stuff is true or not. I don't think there are any genuine 'no-go areas', just shitty impoverished neighborhoods. I would only call a place a no-go area if somehow the residents of a place suddenly all beat the shit out of you just because you walked into the area (I have never seen this happen in my life). About the video, I don't know if the film crew said anything to them before hand to actually turn them violent (not excusing this violent behavior, just wondering about the context).

Yeah, it's something I hear spouted so often but it's never expanded upon.

Someone said Tower Hamlets when pushed, but that's an entire borough!

 

[Dingens]

Union doesn't imply that you can be bossed around by the other EU members.
In this case Merkel unilaterally invited refugees to come without consulting the other EU member states. It would be totally undemocratic to impose the affect of her decision on the other states.

that's very polite of them to come only after they have been invited, and not because lets say somebody is bombing their cites.

where was the will of the UNION when Merkel decided to open the border to millions of people?

contrary to popular believe, borders are usually not a physical thing you know

This is what we did in Sweden until the social democratic party lost its way in the nineties

not only in sweden... that was pretty much true for all of Europe (and it did wonders for integration and social peace). but social peace isn't relevant for the neo liberal agenda sadly. And because "there is no alternative" as thatcher liked to claim, we won't be able to go back to that that easily. And with right wing parties abusing the confusion about this crisis and existential fears for their own anti-welfarestate agenda, things will get A LOT worse before they may get better again.
It's really shame that people are unable to see what these right wing parties are REALLY about.

 

[Marky Mark]

Are you talking about 60 Minutes? I'm guessing the Australian 60 Minutes is somehow related to the American 60 Minutes, one of the most respected news programs in the world. Are these a bunch of low brow racists?

Good luck.

60 Minutes in Australia can be sensationalist.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=media+watch+"60+minutes"

 

[ClosingADoor]

that's very polite of them to come only after they have been invited, and not because lets say somebody is bombing their cites.

You can not seriously deny that Merkels policy in the fall of last year did not contribute to the growing number of refugees from Syria and people from other countries trying to get into Europe?

contrary to popular believe, borders are usually not a physical thing you know

But they are there for a reason. And sometimes they will be closed.

not only in sweden... that was pretty much true for all of Europe (and it did wonders for integration and social peace). but social peace isn't relevant for the neo liberal agenda sadly. And because "there is no alternative" as thatcher liked to claim, we won't be able to go back to that that easily. And with right wing parties abusing the confusion about this crisis and existential fears for their own anti-welfarestate agenda, things will get A LOT worse before they may get better again.
It's really shame that people are unable to see what these right wing parties are REALLY about.

It did wonders? Yet we are seeing the kids of those immigrants disenfranchised, over represented in crime and some even traveling down to Syria to join a terrorist organisation. Just throwing money at a problem does not remove it. Giving people random jobs for the government is not a solution. You also can not keep taxing people endlessly and expect them to pay for the livelihood of people they feel no connection to.

 

[Dingens]

You can not seriously deny that Merkels policy in the fall of last year did not contribute to the growing number of refugees from Syria and people from other countries trying to get into Europe?

Refugees have been arriving for a long time, even before Merkels policy. It's a reality we needed to face, and I doubt that an official "invitation" (if we can even call it that) changed all that much. people are going to come one way or the other. you might as well make sure that they come through official lanes and not through the woods.

But they are there for a reason. And sometimes they will be closed.

and how exactly will they be closed? Do you wanna hire a few million policeman to guard every single meter of boarder space for each and every European country?
Do yo remember the DDR? it featured one of the best protected borders ever. didn't help much as millions of DDR citizens made it to the other side.

It did wonders? Yet we are seeing the kids of those immigrants disenfranchised, over represented in crime and some even traveling down to Syria to join a terrorist organisation. Just throwing money at a problem does not remove it. Giving people random jobs for the government is not a solution. You also can not keep taxing people endlessly and expect them to pay for the livelihood of people they feel no connection to.

those are already 3rd or 4th generation kids, growing up during the 90s and 2000s. Thats exactly the period when a new kind of social democrats took over: Blair, Schroeder, etc. and also the time when social peace started to fade.
Yes, giving people a job and a purpose in live is THE solution. It has worked for 30 years, and it would still work today, that is if someone would adapt the system to todays reality, instead of abolishing it altogether. And no, this has nothing to do with government jobs and paying taxes. this is more about steering and active intervention

 

[ClosingADoor]

Refugees have been arriving for a long time, even before Merkels policy. It's a reality we needed to face, and I doubt that an official "invitation" (if we can even call it that) changed all that much. people are going to come one way or the other. you might as well make sure that they come through official lanes and not through the woods.

Not in these numbers. If you don't see how Germany's policy influenced the refugee situation, you have not been paying attention.

and how exactly will they be closed? Do you wanna hire a few million policeman to guard every single meter of boarder space for each and every European country?
Do yo remember the DDR? it featured one of the best protected borders ever. didn't help much as millions of DDR citizens made it to the other side.

They are doing that in Macedonia and Greece right now. Don't come here with that DDR nonsense. That was about keeping people in your country, different situation.

And no, I'm not saying shoot anybody trying to cross or not help out at all. But taking in millions of people is not the solution. Europe can not take in an endless stream of people. It is just impossible to provide all those people with the benefits we enjoy here, or you'd be looking at just dumping them in camps outside of society.

those are already 3rd or 4th generation kids, growing up during the 90s and 2000s. Thats exactly the period when a new kind of social democrats took over: Blair, Schroeder, etc. and also the time when social peace started to fade.
Yes, giving people a job and a purpose in live is THE solution. It has worked for 30 years, and it would still work today, that is if someone would adapt the system to todays reality, instead of abolishing it altogether. And no, this has nothing to do with government jobs and paying taxes. this is more about steering and active intervention

So who is going to pay for this? What kind of jobs are we talking about? Last time I checked, we don't have an oversupply of work, so these people should just do busy work that adds no value?

I don't believe the 70s and 80s were a time of some perfect integration, but I wasn't alive then, so I might have missed something I guess.

 

[HarryKS]

Sweden takes care of you if you are an immigrant?

I ain't going to a country where I can't speak the language.

Doesn't work.

 

[Fusebox]

So the Australian equivalent of Fox and Avpixlat, a super racist website....

60 Minutes is super racist? Where did you get that stupid idea from man?

 

[Morrigan Stark]

As a kid my family went to Sweden every summer as a vacation, I'm never going to go there of my own free will again. At this point I'm hoping that Sweden collapses quickly, it's starting to get painful to watch their downfall.

Um... what

 

[Violet_0]

I support the countries taking in political refugees (as is their obligation), but these closed-off neighborhoods have been a huge problem for decades in many parts of Europe. I don't see any reason to defend the actions of the attackers, something like this should never happen

 

[Ozzy Onya A2Z]

60 Minutes in Australia can be sensationalist.

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=media+watch+"60+minutes"

60 minutes in Aus 10+ years ago was a different beast, quality journalism almost always. Bankable in fact. These days it's not a racist outfit or anything but they have moved into more sensationalised stories these days, overall the quality has dipped and media shock value has a minority home at 60mins Aus now.

Nothing like some ignorant posters in this thread claim though.

 

[Enosh]

contrary to popular believe, borders are usually not a physical thing you know

the fuck has this to do with anything I said?

your point was that we should act like an Union, fine, but where was this acting like an union when Merkel decided by herself how to deal with refugees? Germany doesn't get to decide on some path that effect all of the EU by itself and when it goes to shit push the consequences of their action on all of the EU

 

[legend166]

This idea that Channel 9/60 Minutes is some sort of Australian Fox News equivalent is literally something I've never heard of before. I mean, I don't think it's the high water mark of journalism, but it's generally respected.

It wouldn't surprise me if as part of the story they talked to this right wing Swedish news site as well as immigrants/immigrant advocates.

 

[Moronwind]

This is what we did in Sweden until the social democratic party lost its way in the nineties

The social democratic party had to change direction because the existing model was proving unsustainable, the Swedish economy was in the middle of a serious crisis during the nineties.
As it currently stands the government uses a fair bit of tax money to create artificial jobs and subsidize wages for employers who hire immigrants. The problem is that refugees from the middle east and Africa are simply not very competitive on the labor market in one of the world's most knowledge intensive economies. Most of these countries don't even have full literacy.
And it's a multi generational problem, second generation immigrants perform much worse in school compared with native children, this is where the integration problem really festers I suppose.
The best thing the government can do for integration is ensure that the current restrictive immigration policy is made permanent.

 

[Marky Mark]

60 minutes in Aus 10+ years ago was a different beast, quality journalism almost always. Bankable in fact. These days it's not a racist outfit or anything but they have moved into more sensationalised stories these days, overall the quality has dipped and media shock value has a minority home at 60mins Aus now.

Nothing like some ignorant posters in this thread claim though.

You're entirely correct. I didn't mean to sound as though I was agreeing with the claim of 60 Minutes racism.

FWIW, I don't watch a great deal of TV but what I do is usually 7.30, 4 Corners, Lateline, etc., so essentially ABC and SBS. There's something on Molenbeek by 7.30 right now actually and they're not being attacked at present.

 

[hydrophilic attack]

The social democratic party had to change direction because the existing model was proving unsustainable, the Swedish economy was in the middle of a serious crisis during the nineties.

Yes, but that crisis had nothing to do with tax and spend. That was a housing crash due to the collapse of a speculation bubble, created by deregulation of the bank sector, much like the 2008 American crash. To whatever degree there was a fiscal budget crisis, this was due to unfunded tax drops by the right-wing government in power at the start of the nineties.

As it currently stands the government uses a fair bit of tax money to create artificial jobs and subsidize wages for employers who hire immigrants. The problem is that refugees from the middle east and Africa are simply not very competitive on the labor market in one of the world's most knowledge intensive economies. Most of these countries don't even have full literacy.

Subsidizing wages is a very roundabout way to go about the situation. At the moment, the Swedish healthcare system, along with elderly care and stuff like that, is severely understaffed and it will be increasingly underfunded as people grow older and don't have as many kids. (This is a problem for most of Europe.) Similarly, schools are understaffed, especially considering the influx of new students from immigration. Infrastructure, like our railways, is falling apart. So raise taxes that were recently lowered (similar levels like 2006 would be a good start, although I understand you have to do it gradually) and go on a massive public employment spree. If the government increases the number of people they employ by a couple of percentage points of our population, that would do a fair bit to push us to full employment. People building/repairing railroads, people doing elderly care, nurses, teachers, lots of jobs at different skill levels.

And it's a multi generational problem, second generation immigrants perform much worse in school compared with native children, this is where the integration problem really festers I suppose.

It's a problem of economic segregation. It looks like a problem of immigrants doing poorly at schools, but it's really about most immigrants living in poor areas, which have underfunded schools. They are paid for by municipal taxes, which are harder to raise in poorer areas. In municipalities with both rich and poor areas, the schools in poorer areas don't get more money per student, at least not nearly enough to compensate for how much harder it is to teach in poorer areas. Combine this with the voucher system for school funding (fria skolvalet) the most right-wing school policy in the world (yes, even in the US similar policy proposals are considered extreme) and you have a horrible feedback loop that makes poorer schools worse and better schools better as well-informed parents move their kids from problem schools, while the kids who need the most help stay. Because of segregation, children of immigrants tend to live in poorer areas, and so it may look like they are doing relatively worse, but that is a spurious relationship.

All of this is caused by increasing economic segregation and changes in school policy in the last 30 years by right-wing parties and a social democratic party that lost its way.

The best thing the government can do for integration is ensure that the current restrictive immigration policy is made permanent.

Nah. Most policy experts agree that permanent residence permits are better for immigration than temporary ones. If you are afraid of getting kicked out, it's going to be a lot harder to hunker down and learn the language and so on.