Aaron Strife
Banned
Go fuck yourself Penn
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Back to the Center, Democrats (NYT Op-ed)
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hodayathink
Member
Dems need to be able to win without the need of a charismatic candidate. Because we're probably not going to be able to find 1 of those president plus the ones needed for swing senate seats plus the ones needed for swing house seats plus the ones needed for governorships. Republicans are winning because they can win on policy even when their candidate is a complete dickhead. Democrats need to change/fix that.
Aaron Strife
Banned
I really like the take that Democrats shouldn't focus on trans issues.
What state was ground zero for trans issues thanks to the "bathroom bill"?
Who won that race?
What state was ground zero for trans issues thanks to the "bathroom bill"?
Who won that race?
I was mainly referring to the presidency. Senate and House are a whole different ballgame.
Republicans don't win on policy. They don't have a policy. Look at what they're doing for healthcare. They win on scare tactics, propaganda, and fear. They win by being the cynical party. They win because they have too many win conditions. They say government sucks so if they go in and ruin shit they can just shrug and say we told you so.
lol, yeah that was what I said in my first post. Like... where is this hot take even fucking coming from? Did Hillary even really talk about bathrooms that damned much or something?
Secret Fawful
Member
I can't fucking stand centrism and moderates because of shit like this. America doesn't need to go back to the center of the American political spectrum. We're already too far right as it fucking is, and if I hear one more person blame identity politics I'm going to pull out their brain, as soon as I can find it with a fucking microscope.
But what good is having the right message if the very people that message is supposed to attract aren't paying any attention?
The further left you go in this country, the fewer voters exist that you can count on to actually vote. Add to that the obsession with absolute purity and protest votes and the left becomes very risky to appeal to.
I don't agree that Democrats have to move to the center, but they may not have a choice unless voters can actually unite behind (and vote for) a common message.
Maybe 8 years of Trump and his shit policies will be what gets voters on the left to actually do something, because the message, regardless how right it is, isn't enough at this point.
BreezyLimbo
Banned
For a second I got worried Penn Jilette wrote this
entremet
Member
Just for reference, Bernie wrote an Op-ed last month on how Dems can win again as well.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/...-how-democrats-can-stop-losing-elections.html
Way different take from Penn.
https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/06/...-how-democrats-can-stop-losing-elections.html
Way different take from Penn.
This is hilarious. Republicans are the most right wing party in the world, serious extremists, and the only option is for Democrats to move closer to their side? Those racists who keep voting for republicans will never vote for a democrat even if that democrat said exactly what they wanted to hear.
Father_Brain
Banned
"Democrats fall in love, Republicans fall in line" is something Democrats tell themselves to avoid admitting that the GOP is simply far more competent at electoral politics than they are.
In reality, there's no fundamental difference between how left-of-center and right-of-center voters' brains work.
entremet
Member
Well for G20 nations, definitely. The American GOP sure are something lol
AmayaPapaya
Banned
They need a candidate who the people like, period. Clearly people didn't like Hillary, as she had the lowest approval rating of any candidate in history (at least, since we have been taking census), except for Trump. The party should have never pushed for someone who had so much history and had no hope of changing peoples minds. They need to put the people who are likely to win on top, not the ones they want to win.
The most popular politician in the country, right now, is Bernie Sanders. If they model off of him, they could do much better. They see everything from a money perspective still, even after losing with twice the money.
The most popular politician in the country, right now, is Bernie Sanders. If they model off of him, they could do much better. They see everything from a money perspective still, even after losing with twice the money.
Ziltoidia 9
Member
Democrats <-----------|-------------------------------------------------->Republicans
The republicans are so far right that the "center" pulls you deep into republican territory.
The republicans are so far right that the "center" pulls you deep into republican territory.
This.
We didn't lose because we had unpalatable policies.
We lost a culture war that favored white supremacy, fear of the other, and the freedom to be an asshole.
Republicans have the worse policy ideas. The fallout from the administration's shenanigans on a lot of his support is visible and obvious.
However, they're extremely good at making it seem like if you don't vote for the guy with an R next to his name, you're ushering in the apocalypse.
The only way I see to really counter this is with better messaging and canvassing- put out ads, e-mails, and calls that hammer Republicans on their sociopathy and hypocrisy while doing work in building bridges of empathy between centrists/independents and Democrats.
None of this means sacrificing your values. Hell, Dems don't have much room to do that, because the minority backbone is here because of said values. Fuck over our basic rights for the white man's wallet, and you will slowly but surely lose us.
I'm going to bring this up again because I really think it's true. Republicans are good at electoral politics because they have too many win conditions. Their argument is that government sucks, so if they get in and things get worse they can just say "Yeah government is terrible, we agree. Let's get rid of more of it." If they get in and somehow do something people like, then they win that way.
Hari Seldon
Member
There is a nugget of truth to this. Maybe moving to the center is the wrong way to phrase it. But appeal to working class voters more than they have. "Its the economy, stupid." is more apt than ever. Instead of selling single payer healthcare as something to help out poor people, sell it as a big economic motivator allowing workers to quit their job and start up their own business. Don't let the Republicans out-populist them on easy targets like H1B Visa reform. And most importantly, if you want to appeal to the working class don't chose a pro-Wall Street candidate.
Brawly Likes to Brawl
Member
I always get a kick out of people implying that Democrats are wasting people's time with "bathrooms" when it was Republicans that decided to turn it into a political battle in the first place.
Trump being in the White House means that we should apparently stop standing up for LGBT being considered sexual predators.
Frozenprince
Banned
"Damn you black peopleeeeee"
Laevateinn
Member
Republicans win while promising the world while taking as much as they can from the people.
Democrats lose by promising nothing because they want to be realistic.
When you're campaigning, say you will fight to the death for the people who vote for you and they will vote for you even if what you are promising is unrealistic at the moment. If enough people get elected who promise the same shit you are, it just might be possible.
Democrats lose by promising nothing because they want to be realistic.
When you're campaigning, say you will fight to the death for the people who vote for you and they will vote for you even if what you are promising is unrealistic at the moment. If enough people get elected who promise the same shit you are, it just might be possible.
Black Republican
Member
Poor Bill Clinton probably isnt well enough to give a decent counter attack to this, his 2015-16 speeches/errors were really bad
And_Gignac
Member
This was written by Mark Penn, a Clinton campaign manager that basically told her to use Obama`s racial background as an attack in 2008. He is a DINO.
The Democrats need to do away with this idea that they need to choose some wing of the party and that they can win without minorities, whites, gays, socialists, liberals, centrists and maybe even some Burkean conservatives and some libertarians. Essentially the notion that an election can be won by winning some ideological battle instead of building a coalition of people who don't want the current Republican party in power.
My concern is this type of rhetoric further taking over the party. The authors of this are worthless but far too many of those who are on the left and democrats seem to be grasping at this type of thinking in the face of Trump's horrible admin.
Meanwhile, minorities don't have great accessibility to the polls due to the voting rights act being gutted. I wonder if that had an effect on people getting to the poll?
Giving a platform to people like Mark Penn further obfuscates Democratic messaging moving forward because Trump has many of us in a panic.
Meanwhile, minorities don't have great accessibility to the polls due to the voting rights act being gutted. I wonder if that had an effect on people getting to the poll?
Giving a platform to people like Mark Penn further obfuscates Democratic messaging moving forward because Trump has many of us in a panic.
Alcotholic
Banned
Nuh uh. We shouldnt "compromise". The republicans should comprimise. Why do we have to shift our views for them?
You don't even have to compromise, just agree to take out a common enemy.
Widdle Puppy
Banned
I agree with him here.
The party needs to go hard left and start unifying constituents with a critical theorist type identity that it's a grass roots party against a common enemy of the corporate oligarchs and 1%ers. Also include an attack against identity politics where democrats tell the accurate narrative that republicans are a racist white nazi party that is splitting America apart and depriving people of voting. Democrats let republicans get away with forming factions while the party tries to be this center left catch all with a murky agenda.
Sho_Nuff82
Member
Reminder: Democrats have lost two nationwide popular votes in 30 years, 1988 and 2004.
And I'm reminded of the of the post someone had here a few days ago: the country has moved so far right that being 'moderate' now means compromising with racists/capitalists and absolutely ignoring progressives/socialists. How convenient.
And I'm reminded of the of the post someone had here a few days ago: the country has moved so far right that being 'moderate' now means compromising with racists/capitalists and absolutely ignoring progressives/socialists. How convenient.
I tend to agree, insofar as the left's social issues are a lot harder to galvanize than the right's. Identity politics are easy to practice when it's basically "keep things the way they are" or only have to appeal to prejudiced, generally white, people.
But there's a lot I find sorta-right but wrongheaded in conclusions with the op-ed, especially in tying the idea that equality of opportunity has to be a center/center-right ideal. I haven't seen any Democrats actually articulate the difference and why that should be a goal, but that doesn't mean it's anathema to their positions, it's just a different outlook on how to achieve them.
I think going hard left is as dumb as the Republicans responding to their electoral failures by going hard right. Liberals can't play the same game and expect to win it. There's still a middle ground between "play for the center" and "cede all ground over to making racists happy" though. Dems have won the popular vote and are only more likely to as time goes on.
But the party is a center-left catchall. It encompasses every politically-engaged person left-of-center, and there's plenty of disagreement there. If you're arguing against the status quo you're always going to have a more fractured base of support.
The fundamental problem I see is that the arguments for swinging hard left are predicated on a chicken-or-egg scenario where you say that everyone who has not been politically engaged will suddenly jump on board because "going hard left" on everything (the details of that are?) is exactly what they want.
Young people couldn't be arsed to vote against Trump this election, so what would convince them to get to the polls? Trying to build a platform for a hopeful turnout seems ass-backwards rather than trying to win with the electorate you've got.
OG Shaka Zulu
Member
Mark Penn skips leg day just to run his mouth. Screw that guy.
Adam_Vania
Banned
how about compromising by moving more to the left for once?
and yet the crystal ball poll perusing strategy where you only put effort in where the computer model says it will count was a failing one. the whole Dem strategy was to only play to the base and ignore the "lost causes". lost them the election. pursuing a losing strategy after seeing in lose in real time is dumb.
and yet the crystal ball poll perusing strategy where you only put effort in where the computer model says it will count was a failing one. the whole Dem strategy was to only play to the base and ignore the "lost causes". lost them the election. pursuing a losing strategy after seeing in lose in real time is dumb.
Alex_Mexico
Member
Only Americans think the Democrats were ever in the "left". Sure, left to the GOP but anything is left to the GOP's at times extreme-right. The Dems have been, at most, center-left.
For a true left wing party visit any country in western Europe. Or if you want failed extreme lefts go to Latin America.
The US doesnt have a true left wing party.
For a true left wing party visit any country in western Europe. Or if you want failed extreme lefts go to Latin America.
The US doesnt have a true left wing party.
Because parties aren't monoliths where you get together and decide that everyone in the party is going to adopt a certain ideology. Which is something you'd think the Democratic Party would have learned by now.
jakonovski
Member
If Democrats all joined the Republican party they'd never lose!
VendettaRed07
Member
Democratic centrism has not produced adequate results or legislation that has properly addressed the massive transfer of wealth that has gone on over the past 40 years.
It has not brought an end to or significantly reduced mass incarceration or systematic racism
It hasn't not tackled the fact that young people can't get married, can't afford a home, can't get good paying jobs that can pay off student debt working their life times. Or can't afford crippling medical bills because they can't get good insurance plans.
We've seen the country shift from its largest employer being Ford, to Walmart. And even if they don't work at Walmart, odds are they work somewhere that treats employees more like Walmart does than employ something like Fordism.
Shit wages. No future. No hope.
Come up with a fucking plan to fix these things. Running on not making it worse like Republicans will means fuck all.
Do better or else young people will continue to fall off and be dissuaded from politics because they aren't doing shit for them.
It has not brought an end to or significantly reduced mass incarceration or systematic racism
It hasn't not tackled the fact that young people can't get married, can't afford a home, can't get good paying jobs that can pay off student debt working their life times. Or can't afford crippling medical bills because they can't get good insurance plans.
We've seen the country shift from its largest employer being Ford, to Walmart. And even if they don't work at Walmart, odds are they work somewhere that treats employees more like Walmart does than employ something like Fordism.
Shit wages. No future. No hope.
Come up with a fucking plan to fix these things. Running on not making it worse like Republicans will means fuck all.
Do better or else young people will continue to fall off and be dissuaded from politics because they aren't doing shit for them.
Spoilers: the people who don't want Trump in power are already Democrats. The GOP is fully behind him, or at least would never vote for a Democrat to replace him.
Pretty much. And to expand on the "things get worse" part, to be more specific it's when they make things worse on purpose or refuse to fix something and then they blame the Dems and convince people that they never really needed the thing in the first place. And the more that thing helps people other than straight, white Christians then the easier it is to convince those folks to get rid of the thing.
Also, just posting this again because more people should read it as this hot take op-ed by the ever useless Penn is EXACTLY what the author says excoriates. Even after 40 years we're stuck in this ever loving spiral of what the author describes.
Two Santa Clauses or How The Republican Party Has Conned America for Thirty Years
All that shows me that Republican voters are fucking idiots. Republicans have ran the house and most states overwhelmingly for the last 23 years, and yet these voters keep voting them in expecting their lot in life to improve. There's no cure for stupid.
Consider the source. No one likes Mark Penn.
Is there any evidence that this untapped, solid left voting bloc (who is just waiting for candidates that check all the right boxes) even exists?
I'm starting to wonder (and worry) that this country really is just that conservative at its core and there's only so much we can ask or expect of it.
I'm starting to wonder (and worry) that this country really is just that conservative at its core and there's only so much we can ask or expect of it.
I'm torn on this issue. We haven't had a true "left" candidate yet. Hillary and Obama, while certainly farther left than Republicans, are still center-to-right on economic issues and only swing left on social issues to the extent that they are "mainstream" safe.
The far left hasn't had an opportunity to prove that they can deliver elections (in American politics). Even Bernie's popularity, IMO had less to do with his politics than 2016 being a populist-driven election.
The centrist Democrats blundered away one of the most important elections in my lifetime and then proceeded to make excuses instead of taking a hard look at WHY they were stomped last year.
The current Democratic party has delivered nothing but hubris and failure so I'm all for changing up the status quo - if it can win elections. If we're pushing "far left" candidates that have a snowball's chance in hell of winning, why bother? Principles and moral high ground don't mean jack when you have zero power to prevent the enemy from destroying everything you've worked for.
The far left hasn't had an opportunity to prove that they can deliver elections (in American politics). Even Bernie's popularity, IMO had less to do with his politics than 2016 being a populist-driven election.
The centrist Democrats blundered away one of the most important elections in my lifetime and then proceeded to make excuses instead of taking a hard look at WHY they were stomped last year.
The current Democratic party has delivered nothing but hubris and failure so I'm all for changing up the status quo - if it can win elections. If we're pushing "far left" candidates that have a snowball's chance in hell of winning, why bother? Principles and moral high ground don't mean jack when you have zero power to prevent the enemy from destroying everything you've worked for.
DR2K
Banned
Among who? Not people that vote.
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