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[Zeus Molecules]

If science fiction mumbo jumbo (in a cartoon based on comics) overshadows everything else that's amazing in the episode for you, then all I can do is feel bad for you.

I was going to post this myself. The Feels that episode gives me alone makes it a great DCAU episode. However, the fact it ties together so many parts of the DCAU in a neat way while paying homage to the original Batman Animated series makes it one of the best episodes in the DCAU.

 

[Joyful]

uh epilogue is a great episode
terry just looks so weird in it though

 

[.GqueB.]

I never understood his mouth.

It doesn't make any sense.

 

[Shaanyboi]

That was a dumb fun episode

 

[CorvoSol]

Anyone reading the comic series? I have and it's been great for a variety of reasons

Spoiler

(my favorite is the alternative universe where Dick and Barbara got married and have a kid; the bitter Dick of Terry's universe is still around though).

I am! I've really been loving it so far. Worth the buck a month, I think. The Bat Family Drama recently was a bit of a ride, but its nice seeing Terry learn from Bruce's mistakes and deciding what he wants for his own life. Two of my favorite recent moments were

Spoiler

the flashback to just post Joker's kidnapping of Tim Drake, where Babs and Alfred hug it out because they can't deal with what happened to Tim any other way; and Terry meeting his father in the Justice Lords universe. Those were some strong moments.

 

[stn]

What is this whole "Batman moment with Ace" everyone is talking about?

 

[Spring-Loaded]

What is this whole "Batman moment with Ace" everyone is talking about?

It's a Justice League: Unlimited episode titled "Epilogue." Ace is one of the members of the original Royal Flush Gang from Bruce Wayne's time as Batman.

(Tangentially related: in the Batman Beyond movie and in the JLU crossover there are these enemies--a scarecrow type guy, a hyena, two Harley Quinn-esque twins that can clone themselves, among others--that are always treated as established villains to Terry. They're never in the show though--is there something I'm missing where they get introduced?)

You need to see Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker

 

[ViewtifulJC]

I hate hate HATE the Bruce-Terry retcon in Epilogue, but its still got one of the best scenes in the whole DCAU where he confronts Ace. Its like the Batman equivalent of the "You're much stronger than you are" scene from All-Star Superman, with that dark Gotham twist to it.

 

[Sephzilla]

Nope, I don't believe you.

Batman Beyond is awesome from start to finish and we need more of it.

 

[Wanderer5]

uh epilogue is a great episode
terry just looks so weird in it though

Pretty much sums up my thoughts. The cloning is a bit eh, but overall the only thing that wasn't good was terry's appearance.<.< He did look weird indeed.

 

[Delta Assault]

If science fiction mumbo jumbo (in a cartoon based on comics) overshadows everything else that's amazing in the episode for you, then all I can do is feel bad for you.

It wasn't just science fiction mumbo jumbo.

Amanda Waller believes that she can create another Batman by... murdering a kid's parents? That's gonna do it? What kind of rational human being (nevermind a high level government black ops official) actually believes this is a good plan? Oh wait, they just so happened to have almost the identical psychological makeup of Bruce's parents. Because apparently the Waynes went to psychologists all the time before they were murdered and they kept excellent psychological profiles back then. Sure. Uh huh. That's totally plausible and makes a lot of sense.

So because Terry's parents are somehow mental matches for the Waynes, this means that killing Terry's parents when he's 8 will somehow recreate the identical urge for justice that will lead Terry to become a new Batman. There'll somehow be a Bat that flies in through a window somewhere and Terry will think to create a Batsuit and maybe make his headquarters in a batcave of some sort and maybe he'll also get a trusty butler or something. Wow. This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Who thought up this plan? Where do you come up with this stuff? It's outrageously silly nonsense.

Old ass Phantasm. Really? Old wrinkley Andrea Beaumont's still running around rooftops in that goofy Phantasm outfit? Really? And she goes along with this whole plan at first? She really thinks this crazy ass scheme is gonna work? I'm sorry, but her arc was done after that Phantasm movie. Who thought it was a good idea to bring back this geriatric Phantasm? Does she hide a walker under that outfit? What is she doing with her life? Jesus Christ.

 

[av2k]

I like Terry as Batman but I gotta say, this show did not age well when I watched it again. I think the villains are wayyyy to bland because of their specific "gimmick" (Sound, radiation, ink.. etc) in comparison to Batman's psychologically based villains.

 

[Lagamorph]

Why the hell did they rename it Batman of the Future in some places anyway?

 

[neogaffer1]

You need to see Batman Beyond: Return of the Joker

I did, which is why I asked where they came from. I know the origin of the two twins are that they're

Spoiler

Harley Quinn's grandchildren

but I don't think it actually showed when that group met for the first time or why

Spoiler

other than that the Joker tells them what to do.

 

[Acquiescence]

Whaaaat?! Batman Beyond was the bomb from start to finish, with the sole exception of the final episode that did a piss poor job of concluding things. It was a shame that the show went out on such a low. Otherwise it was excellent, and there's still so much untapped potential to be found in the premise itself. A game based on the show would be amazing in the right hands.

How disappointing is it that Terry never hooked up with Maxine?

I was more pissed off that they had a perfectly good Catwoman equivalent...

...and squandered the relationship between them after season 2. She was the one he should've hooked up with. It not only felt right, but it would have pissed off Bruce something awful too, for the necessary dramaz.

 

[CorvoSol]

Whaaaat?! Batman Beyond was the bomb from start to finish, with the sole exception of the final episode that did a piss poor job of concluding things. It was a shame that the show went out on such a low. Otherwise it was excellent, and there's still so much untapped potential to be found in the premise itself. A game based on the show would be amazing in the right hands.

I was more pissed off that they had a perfectly good Catwoman equivalent...

...and squandered the relationship between them after season 2. She was the one he should've hooked up with. It not only felt right, but it would have pissed off Bruce something awful too, for the necessary dramaz.

He definitely hooks up with Ten in the comic books.

 

[Mr_Zombie]

Nope, Batman Beyond is a damn good series and season 2 was great. While it did lack an overarching plot, like the first season with Terry vs Blight, it still managed to keep high quality. Actually, with few exceptions I like BB villains.

Yes, Terry can act like an idiot and the show spends a lot of time on the high school stuff - but that's because the main protagonist is a 17-year-old guy who happens to be a part-time dark crusader, not a multimillionaire middle-aged playboy who devoted his life to fight crime. I actually like how the show expose differences between Terry and Bruce - how they act, think, relate with others.

I'm currently watching Batman Beyond. I have only 4 more episodes to finish the show.

 

[shira]

Nothing is worse than that Batman Beyond episode they did in JLU. You know, the one that revealed his true origin story.

This is by far the dumbest thing in fiction I've ever seen.

Wat!

The callbacks, that was supposed to tie all the series together as the grand finale.

 

[y2dvd]

Batman Beyond was great, but man was Terry a shitty Batman. He was unskillful and constantly got his butt whooped. Bruce should've gave Terry some technical training.

 

[Spring-Loaded]

It wasn't just science fiction mumbo jumbo.

Amanda Waller believes that she can create another Batman by... murdering a kid's parents? That's gonna do it? What kind of rational human being (nevermind a high level government black ops official) actually believes this is a good plan? Oh wait, they just so happened to have almost the identical psychological makeup of Bruce's parents. Because apparently the Waynes went to psychologists all the time before they were murdered and they kept excellent psychological profiles back then. Sure. Uh huh. That's totally plausible and makes a lot of sense.

So because Terry's parents are somehow mental matches for the Waynes, this means that killing Terry's parents when he's 8 will somehow recreate the identical urge for justice that will lead Terry to become a new Batman. There'll somehow be a Bat that flies in through a window somewhere and Terry will think to create a Batsuit and maybe make his headquarters in a batcave of some sort and maybe he'll also get a trusty butler or something. Wow. This is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Who thought up this plan? Where do you come up with this stuff? It's outrageously silly nonsense.

Old ass Phantasm. Really? Old wrinkley Andrea Beaumont's still running around rooftops in that goofy Phantasm outfit? Really? And she goes along with this whole plan at first? She really thinks this crazy ass scheme is gonna work? I'm sorry, but her arc was done after that Phantasm movie. Who thought it was a good idea to bring back this geriatric Phantasm? Does she hide a walker under that outfit? What is she doing with her life? Jesus Christ.

It is just a sci-fi justification to get Terry to go after Waller, and feel as if he's been betrayed. "Sci-fi justification" is the basis for most superhero stories and anyone with some perspective will understand that what is done with that justification is what matters.

It's a plot lifted from The Boys From Brazil, and a concept explored across other mediums (never play Metal Gear Solid if this is too hard for you to swallow). The nazi scientists didn't expect their Hitler clones to start rocking his signature mustache or inexplicably draw swastikas on the walls in crayon, but they believed they could mold a person to fill a specific role they believed had utmost importance. It's the same thing here &#8212; if cadmus' plan worked, they'd have a person who'd be willing to go as far as Batman had, and it's safe to assume they'd be willing to influence the subject's life after that.

We have comic storylines where Superman gets cloned with memories programmed in &#8212; government organization attempting to shape children into becoming vigilantes is simply no more ridiculous than what happens on an episode-by-episode basis in this show, let alone the comic back stories of every character. You happen to find this too far-fetched, which is fine. But let's not pretend this episode is somehow objectively notable in its absurdity over people controlling plants with their minds, or talking gorillas with laser guns.

The episode even says that the plan is a folly, that it doesn't matter Terry shared Bruce's DNA, that him having the drive to become Batman, or someone like him, was his own doing. It reinforced what actually mattered in Terry's storyline (hint: it wasn't the sci-fi pseudo-clone attempt), similar to what justified the episode's setup.

The Phantasm cameo is good, and LMAO at someone trying to say it isn't. Her story continued on beyond MotP in TAS tie-in comics. You're reaching sooooo far just to voice to the world you take all the wrong parts of a kid's cartoon seriously. Take a step back and consider how silly your nitpicks are in context &#8212; even if they were all valid, the good would outweigh the bad.

 

[Rarity]

I hate hate HATE the Bruce-Terry retcon in Epilogue, but its still got one of the best scenes in the whole DCAU where he confronts Ace. Its like the Batman equivalent of the "You're much stronger than you are" scene from All-Star Superman, with that dark Gotham twist to it.

This is just so good.

 

[Delta Assault]

It is just a sci-fi justification to get Terry to go after Waller, and feel as if he's been betrayed. "Sci-fi justification" is the basis for most superhero stories and anyone with some perspective will understand that what is done with that justification is what matters.

It's a plot lifted from The Boys From Brazil, and a concept explored across other mediums (never play Metal Gear Solid if this is too hard for you to swallow). The nazi scientists didn't expect their Hitler clones to start rocking his signature mustache or inexplicably draw swastikas on the walls in crayon, but they believed they could mold a person to fill a specific role they believed had utmost importance. It's the same thing here — if cadmus' plan worked, they'd have a person who'd be willing to go as far as Batman had, and it's safe to assume they'd be willing to influence the subject's life after that.

We have comic storylines where Superman gets cloned with memories programmed in — government organization attempting to shape children into becoming vigilantes is simply no more ridiculous than what happens on an episode-by-episode basis in this show, let alone the comic back stories of every character. You happen to find this too far-fetched, which is fine. But let's not pretend this episode is somehow objectively notable in its absurdity over people controlling plants with their minds, or talking gorillas with laser guns.

The episode even says that the plan is a folly, that it doesn't matter Terry shared Bruce's DNA, that him having the drive to become Batman, or someone like him, was his own doing. It reinforced what actually mattered in Terry's storyline (hint: it wasn't the sci-fi pseudo-clone attempt), similar to what justified the episode's setup.

The Phantasm cameo is good, and LMAO at someone trying to say it isn't. Her story continued on beyond MotP in TAS tie-in comics. You're reaching sooooo far just to voice to the world you take all the wrong parts of a kid's cartoon seriously. Take a step back and consider how silly your nitpicks are in context — even if they were all valid, the good would outweigh the bad.

You're gonna pull out Kojima's crazy ramblings from MGS to try and defend this story? Oh boy...

 

[Ashodin]

Zeta was cool as hell from batman beyond. Admit it

 

[unholyrevenger72]

What is this whole "Batman moment with Ace" everyone is talking about?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWHHsdE_oQg

and now Ace's (the dog) name means so much more

 

[ffejeromdiks]

You're gonna pull out Kojima's crazy ramblings from MGS to try and defend this story? Oh boy...

That's all you could come up with? Dude writes up with an in-depth rebuttal to each of your nitpicks and the only thing you have to say in response has nothing to do with it? Weak

 

[kame-sennin]

The whole clone thing was just because they didn't have the balls to have Terry's mom fuck Bruce and cheat on her husband.

 

[Verger]

Yeah, I loved Batman Beyond Season 1 and wondered wtf happened to Season 2 with getting rid of Blight and never bringing him back (and not conclusively stating he died).

Batman Beyond gets high marks though for the Episode concluding Mr. Freeze's storyline from BTAS. I also enjoyed the episodes with Bruce being more active, though the episode concluding the Ras/Talia Algoul storyline stank.

But I enjoyed the Epilogue, and the revelation didn't phase me. It was probably the most easy-to-believe thing actually, especially after Return of the Joker (using a microchip to implant his consciousness).

 

[Green Biker Dude]

If science fiction mumbo jumbo (in a cartoon based on comics) overshadows everything else that's amazing in the episode for you, then all I can do is feel bad for you.

it's not the science fiction mumbo jumbo, it's the fact that the new batman was just a regular punk who got put in a similar situation to bruce's rather than being someone "destined" to be it. that retcon completely ruins everything

 

[Coffee Dog]

it's not the science fiction mumbo jumbo, it's the fact that the new batman was just a regular punk who got put in a similar situation to bruce's rather than being someone "destined" to be it. that retcon completely ruins everything

You missed the point so unbelievably hard

the entire point was that despite his origins, he wasn't bruce. The fact that he isn't the same batman. It reinforces terry's role someone who was able to grow past his trauma and not let it cripple him.

Terry is a regular punk. That's what makes him special.

 

[Delta Assault]

That's all you could come up with? Dude writes up with an in-depth rebuttal to each of your nitpicks and the only thing you have to say in response has nothing to do with it? Weak

Well, I was at work at the time, so yeah... I didn't write that much. Hey, it happens.

And I'm sorry, but I don't see any in-depth rebuttal. You mean stuff like "The Phantasm cameo is good, and LMAO at someone trying to say it isn't" is an in-depth rebuttal? How so? Basically, he just says it's good, and LMAO I'm wrong. That's not really anything. Why would I response to that?

And then he says stuff like "But let's not pretend this episode is somehow objectively notable in its absurdity over people controlling plants with their minds, or talking gorillas with laser guns."

First of all, I never said it was objectively anything. I think it's pretty obvious that I was subjectively judging the episode according to my own personal standards, and by my subjective standards, the story was really fucking dumb. I never said that it was gonna be the dumbest thing in fiction, objectively, for everybody. Never said it once.

Secondly... yes, I do think this episode is notable in its absurdity over people controlling plants with their minds, or talking gorillas with laser guns. Poison Ivy and Gorilla Grodd are way less absurd. Their powers and origins actually do fit tonally within the context of their universe. I mean, maybe not in something like Nolan's film universe, but in a comic book, they both work. You can buy into the existence of a woman controlling plants with her mind, because of some serum or something. That is justified in the comic world. The comic world doesn't justify why someone intelligent would somehow hatch up a dumb project named "Project Batman Beyond," designed to recreate another Batman by randomly murdering some poor kid's parents. I mean gosh, is Amanda Waller gonna be hiding outside Terry's apartment with a bat, ready to throw it through the window and somehow inspire him to dress up as a bat? Is she planning for that as well? We're really gonna watch a fat Amanda Waller in black camo gear hiding outside Terry's fire escape with a dead bat in her hand, just waiting for the right moment to shatter his window and turn his anger into righteous Bat justice? Is that what we're talking about here? Cause this is dumb. This is real dumb. I can't believe how dumb you'd have to be to come up with a story like this. It's boggling my mind.

Amanda Waller is a hard nosed government official. She's supposed to be a pragmatist. So I really don't see why she'd ever embark on this crazy, nonsensical, goofy ass plan to somehow, magically, incomprehensibly, perfectly recreate another Batman. People react to their parents getting killed in any number of ways. Maybe seeing his parents die would turn him into a... gun control activist. Why would she think that Terry would follow Bruce Wayne's exact footsteps? Because Terry's parents had the same general mental state as Bruce's? Huh? Why would that mean anything? How does this work? Who could think that this plan would ever lead to anything?

 

[Coffee Dog]

Well, I was at work at the time, so yeah... I didn't write that much. Hey, it happens.

And I'm sorry, but I don't see any in-depth rebuttal. You mean stuff like "The Phantasm cameo is good, and LMAO at someone trying to say it isn't" is an in-depth rebuttal? How so? Basically, he just says it's good, and LMAO I'm wrong. That's not really anything. Why would I response to that?

And then he says stuff like "But let's not pretend this episode is somehow objectively notable in its absurdity over people controlling plants with their minds, or talking gorillas with laser guns."

First of all, I never said it was objectively anything. I think it's pretty obvious that I was subjectively judging the episode according to my own personal standards, and by my subjective standards, the story was really fucking dumb. I never said that it was gonna be the dumbest thing in fiction, objectively, for everybody. Never said it once.

Secondly... yes, I do think this episode is notable in its absurdity over people controlling plants with their minds, or talking gorillas with laser guns. Poison Ivy and Gorilla Grodd are way less absurd. Their powers and origins actually do fit tonally within the context of their universe. I mean, maybe not in something like Nolan's film universe, but in a comic book, they both work. You can buy into the existence of a woman controlling plants with her mind, because of some serum or something. That is justified in the comic world. The comic world doesn't justify why someone intelligent would somehow hatch up a dumb project named "Project Batman Beyond," designed to recreate another Batman by randomly murdering some poor kid's parents. I mean gosh, is Amanda Waller gonna be hiding outside Terry's apartment with a bat, ready to throw it through the window and somehow inspire him to dress up as a bat? Is she planning for that as well? We're really gonna watch a fat Amanda Waller in black camo gear hiding outside Terry's fire escape with a dead bat in her hand, just waiting for the right moment to shatter his window and turn his anger into righteous Bat justice? Is that what we're talking about here? Cause this is dumb. This is real dumb. I can't believe how dumb you'd have to be to come up with a story like this. It's boggling my mind.

Amanda Waller is a hard nosed government official. She's supposed to be a pragmatist. So I really don't see why she'd ever embark on this crazy, nonsensical, goofy ass plan to somehow, magically, incomprehensibly, perfectly recreate another Batman. People react to their parents getting killed in any number of ways. Maybe seeing his parents die would turn him into a... gun control activist. Why would she think that Terry would follow Bruce Wayne's exact footsteps? Because Terry's parents had the same general mental state as Bruce's? Huh? Why would that mean anything? How does this work? Who could think that this plan would ever lead to anything?

Your entire argument seems to come down to "The science is dumb"

Well, yeah. It is. It's goofy comic book science that is done to justify and reinforce the overarcing themes of the episode by forcing terry to distrust bruce, question his origins, and confront The Wall. That's something the DCAU has done many times before. Hell, it still might not be as bad science wise as the plot twist of ROTJ.

 

[MikeBreezy92]

Amanda Waller is a hard nosed government official. She's supposed to be a pragmatist. So I really don't see why she'd ever embark on this crazy, nonsensical, goofy ass plan to somehow, magically, incomprehensibly, perfectly recreate another Batman. People react to their parents getting killed in any number of ways. Maybe seeing his parents die would turn him into a... gun control activist. Why would she think that Terry would follow Bruce Wayne's exact footsteps? Because Terry's parents had the same general mental state as Bruce's? Huh? Why would that mean anything? How does this work? Who could think that this plan would ever lead to anything?

She even admits how silly and wrong it was in the episode. Hell even the Phantasm called her out on her bullshit.

Terry is his own Batman and in a way I compare him to Dick once he became Batman just with less experience. He's not as driven as Bruce because he's not as insane as Bruce. He's relatively emotionally stable and throughout the series both in the comic and the show they constantly point out to Terry and Terry realizes himself that he shouldn't become Bruce and his talk with Amanda and him calling Dinah show that he's his own hero.

Tbh though never seen so many people dislike Batman Beyond....shit is weird.

 

[Delta Assault]

Your entire argument seems to come down to "The science is dumb"

Well, yeah. It is. It's goofy comic book science that is done to justify and reinforce the overarcing themes of the episode by forcing terry to distrust bruce, question his origins, and confront The Wall. That's something the DCAU has done many times before. Hell, it still might not be as bad science wise as the plot twist of ROTJ.

I've never seen anything in the DCAU that's as dumb as this. And if there is something else that's real dumb, well... that doesn't somehow make this episode good. It just means there are some real bad episodes in the DCAU.

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Amanda Waller believes that she can create another Batman by... murdering a kid's parents? That's gonna do it? What kind of rational human being (nevermind a high level government black ops official) actually believes this is a good plan? Oh wait, they just so happened to have almost the identical psychological makeup of Bruce's parents. Because apparently the Waynes went to psychologists all the time before they were murdered and they kept excellent psychological profiles back then. Sure. Uh huh. That's totally plausible and makes a lot of sense.

They also made young Terry genetically identical to Bruce Wayne. So you have the same genes, + similar parents + similar tragedy. It's not super realistic by any means but I think you might be playing up how absurd it is by the standards of a show where one of the villains plans is to create an army of super dinosaur human hybrids and then make the world's volcanoes erupt so that the temperature is warm enough for them.

 

[Jintor]

Every episode with her in it was instantly more interesting.

The (I think it's a JLU) episode where Batman is literally waiting for her to finish her shower is hilarious. Especially because it paints both sides in a bad light. Obvs the government secret kill laser superhero death teams are bad, but yo, you can't shower without Bats getting all in your business.

 

[Delta Assault]

They also made young Terry genetically identical to Bruce Wayne. So you have the same genes, + similar parents + similar tragedy. It's not super realistic by any means but I think you might be playing up how absurd it is by the standards of a show where one of the villains plans is to create an army of super dinosaur human hybrids and then make the world's volcanoes erupt so that the temperature is warm enough for them.

Wait, didn't they use Bruce's sperm with Terry's mom's egg? So... wouldn't that be half genetically identical? Or did they use some sci-fi thing to change that?

 

[ThoseDeafMutes]

Wait, didn't they use Bruce's sperm with Terry's mom's egg? So... wouldn't that be half genetically identical? Or did they use some sci-fi thing to change that?

Oh you might be right there. But Terry isn't as smart as Bruce anyway so I guess it makes sense that he only has half his genes

 

[Delta Assault]

Oh you might be right there. But Terry isn't as smart as Bruce anyway so I guess it makes sense that he only has half his genes

The McGinnises also weren't rich like the Waynes were. So they weren't really that similar.

 

[Maddocks]

it is that terry isn't as smart as Bruce, but they have the same passion and drive. Which is why he does a pretty good job at being batman. I mean in the animated series we are witnessing his birth as batman, hes going to make mistakes, hes going to get emotionally invested in things. It really wasn't till the comics that you can go ok this guy is now full blown batman and you get behind him and cheer for him. Because I know a lot of people at the time had a hard time cheering and seeing terry as batman because it was Bruce or nothing and I understand that, but if you do invest in the comics and the world they created you will be a very good batman.

 

[Earthanoid]

The McGinnises also weren't rich like the Waynes were. So they weren't really that similar.

I didn't really like the retcon of Epilogue either, but your missing the point of the episode apparently because you're getting caught up in the pseudo-science behind it (which is really like 10 seconds of the whole episode). It boils down to the lady wanting to create a second generation Batman, the explanation as to how she tries to do it is the same as the technobabble from Star Trek. It doesn't actually matter, it's just a plot device.

There are plenty of dumb things in DCAU, do you instantly hate episodes that revolve around magic? Because that's more nonsensical than Waller's plan. If bad science is your criteria then very little in the DCAU is going to hold up.

 

[m_shortpants]

I think Terry really needed a Joker level counterpart.

Blight never went anywhere, the closest recurring villian was Inque...yeah no thanks.

I love Batman Beyond as a whole but it did have some flaws.

 

[Jintor]

It was worth it to hear him peter parkering the hell out of joker.

him and spidey should team up

 

[Rest]

No, Terry's dad was shootin blanks, so they "took a sample" from him under the pretense they were going to use it for in vitro fertilization with Terry's mom but switched it with Sperm Engineered to be Bruce's Clone. All because Amanda Waller couldn't let the world exist with a Batman.

Wow, that's only marginally better.