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BBC: Ukraine on brink of 'civil war'

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Santo

Junior Member
Opposition leader Viktor Yushchenko rejected the official results declaring Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych as president, and urged a general strike.

Outgoing President Leonid Kuchma called on world leaders not to interfere.

US Secretary of State Colin Powell said Washington "cannot accept" the election result as legitimate.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4040041.stm

EEK?
 
http://apnews.myway.com/article/20041124/D86IEPNO1.html

Putin Vexes West With Ukraine Support

THE HAGUE, Netherlands (AP) - Increasingly, Russian President Vladimir Putin walks alone. He has alarmed the West with authoritarian policies at home. He announced last week that Russia was developing new nuclear missiles. And now he has embraced the official outcome of a Ukrainian election that Western observers say was rigged.

When he succeeded Boris Yeltsin nearly five years ago, the longtime KGB officer was an enigma whose past raised eyebrows and concerns about his intentions. But as the months passed he seemed to throw his lot in with the West, stepping up ties with the European Union and NATO and pledging to develop a clean, transparent economy.

He became fast friends with European leaders, picnicking in a hunting cabin outside Moscow with Italian Premier Silvio Berlusconi and chatting in German with Chancellor Gerhard Schroeder. Early on, he forged close ties with President Bush - a strategic bond that remains strong today.

When he arrives in The Hague for a summit with the European Union on Thursday, Putin is bound to be in for a chillier reception.

The meeting, postponed earlier this month, comes days after he set the stage for sharp confrontation with the West by congratulating Viktor Yanukovych as the winner of Ukraine's bitterly disputed presidential vote.

Ukraine election officials on Wednesday insisted that the result would stand, drawing prompt criticism from Secretary of State Colin Powell, who said, "We cannot accept this result as legitimate."

Putin's gesture, which capped an unabashed campaign of support for his favored candidate in a country at the crossroads of Russian and Western interests, was the latest in a long line of statements, actions and policies that have dismayed and alienated Europe and the United States.

His move to legitimize an election result widely viewed abroad as fraudulent will add to their already persistent growing concerns about where he is leading his own country.

When many in the West look at Russia, they see a bleak political landscape painted in Putin's bold brushstrokes: a parliament seemingly manipulated at will by the Kremlin; regional governors no longer elected but appointed directly by Putin; a media that hews closely to the government line; a prominent business leader who challenged Putin thrown into prison.

EU concerns about a drift toward authoritarianism have hampered efforts to forge a new "strategic partnership" agreement with Russia. Europe is demanding that Russia pledge adherence to what it says must be the "common values" of Europe.

Putin said Tuesday that it was important "to avoid creating new dividing lines between us and Europe," but there is increasing concern in the EU that by strengthening control over Russia at the expense of democracy and supporting heavy-handed leaders in former Soviet republics, the Russian leader is throwing up new divisions - or even rebuilding a Cold War curtain.

Some of Putin's recent statements give off the chilling air of that era.

Last week he boasted that Russia is developing new nuclear missiles he stressed no other nation would have for years. After the Beslan hostage-taking tragedy he darkly suggested that terrorists plotting to tear Russia apart had Western sympathy or support.

But while such statements are meant at least partly for hawks at home, Putin's involvement in the Ukraine election is likely to be the most serious test yet of his ties with the West.

By supporting the establishment candidate in Ukraine - where the United States and Europe are actively promoting a seminal shift to a more open, democratic society, in part as a buffer to his newly assertive Russia - Putin is taking his challenge of the West to a new level.
 

Grimlock

Member
Y'know, I have to admit that Putin has always disturbed me ever since I read an article in the paper about when he first assumed control. His background was bad enough, but the article was accompanied by a pic of him looking up from his desk during a press conference. His pic had a severe case of red-eye (from all the camera flashes), but the way he was looking up at that instant made the image so very sinister. I just wish I could find it-it's been more than several years since I've seen it.
 

FightyF

Banned
Yushchenko: I am the Victor!
Yanukovych: No! I am the Victor!

*civil war ensues*

Seriously though, this has to be straightened out, and if we really are keen on democracy...we better be the first to help. IMO, it's what we gotta do, but I have a feeling that our leaders won't do much other than talk about how it's a bad situation.
 
"US Secretary of State Colin Powell said Washington "cannot accept" the election result as legitimate."

So let me get this straight, the USA cannot accept another countries election result because the speculation of fraud but can accept their own bullshit presidential result???

(l'm referring to the first election victory for Bush when the Florida result was in question)
 
rhs_yushchenko.jpg

ooooo-k

Mr Yushchenko was known for his ruggedly handsome, almost movie-star looks. Now his complexion is pockmarked and a sickly green. His face is haggard, swollen and partially paralysed. One eye often tears up.

"It's becoming a puzzle," said Dr Marc Siegel, an associate professor at New York University's School of Medicine who has studied the case. "The longer it goes on, the less I think of food poisoning."
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2004/11/24/1101219617923.html?oneclick=true
 

ourumov

Member
Well...
Schevchenko is a good reason to do something :) Well...that if he doesn't win the gold balloon against Ronaldinho/Deco.

:)

I was just wondering what kind of interests can Europe/US have there...
 

teiresias

Member
One has to admit that Putin has played this off perfectly though. It's really been a mystery to me why Bush , if he believes his "spread democracy" doctrine, would become so closely allied with one the likes of Putin.

But now Putin has a "close relationship" with Bush, Russia has troops in Iraq, and now we have a conflict of interest. I'll be interested to see how far the administration pushes this opposing Putin's and the Russian governments support for the declared election results. Is Bush willing to break down this "relationship" and if so is he willing to call Putin on the power grab he's making in his own country - taking Russia even further away from what Bush is trying to spread in the middle east?
 
Newman: I'm not beaten yet. I still have armies in the Ukraine.

Kramer: Ha ha, the Ukraine. Do you know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting
duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's
time to put the hurt on the Ukraine.

Ukrainian: I come from Ukraine. You not say Ukraine weak.

Kramer: Yeah, well we're playing a game here, pal.

Ukrainian: Ukraine is game to you?! Howbout I take your little board and smash
it!

The Ukrainian pounds the game board, destroying it and sending army pieces
flying.
 

scorcho

testicles on a cold fall morning
according to NPR the protests have been downright peaceful with the local police refusing to enforce anything. the Army has likewise refused to intervene in the matter at all to lend a greater sense of legitimacy to elections, if that makes sense. military deployment in and around the capital could be seen by many as another example of a corrupt government working against the people.

something has to change soon. with the EU recently coming out and stating on the record that they believe the election results are questionable, some type of change will be occurring. Ukraine is dependent on their EU membership for their future, and holding onto a possibly corrupt leader could jeopordize it.
 

navanman

Crown Prince of Custom Firmware
It looks like the tide is turning with Yushchenko. I saw a Channel 4 news, which is BTW the best news programme in the UK, that the police a re starting to change sides and support Yishchenko. I saw on the report policemen go up on the stage and kiss the Ukraine flag and say they stand behind Yushchenko.

I saw that report on his face too. I heard that he had been poisened, who not suprise me
 

Takuan

Member
Outlaw Pro Mod said:
Newman: I'm not beaten yet. I still have armies in the Ukraine.

Kramer: Ha ha, the Ukraine. Do you know what the Ukraine is? It's a sitting
duck. A road apple, Newman. The Ukraine is weak. It's feeble. I think it's
time to put the hurt on the Ukraine.

Ukrainian: I come from Ukraine. You not say Ukraine weak.

Kramer: Yeah, well we're playing a game here, pal.

Ukrainian: Ukraine is game to you?! Howbout I take your little board and smash
it!

The Ukrainian pounds the game board, destroying it and sending army pieces
flying.
:lol I was just about to type that.
 

Chopin Trusty Balls

First casualty in the war on idioticy.
As an ex Russian,i am quite shocked at the Conflict coverage in the Western Media,they dont mention THE biggest problem,which that the Western half are Catholics and the eastern one is Russian Orthodox,so according to this they voted,Russians hold vast majority of economic and cultural positions in Ukraine,so the Russian Eastern Ukraine is well developed while Western is pretty much piss poor neighbor sitting on the Easts neck.
There were also 3 Cities in the Western Ukraine that had a 95% of voters,if you add them up they make even votes then Donetz which is being used as example of "cheating" in the Media.
It seems to go the same way as Georgia/Jugoslavia,same Organisations are at work organizing revolts,quite depressing,though luckily the Russians wont fell for it,so it will either not work or cause the nation to split,then Western Ukraine will be pretty much second poorest country in Europe,next to Albania.

Edit:Now they say People are protesting against the Regime on CNN :lol :(
 

Azih

Member
From what I know the Eastern Catholics Outnumber the Western Russians.

Plus the Russian candidate had Putin support, and Putin is evil. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the poisoning stories are true. Edit: It's already obvious that there was widespread fraud due to the reports from the international observers.
 

Chopin Trusty Balls

First casualty in the war on idioticy.
Azih said:
From what I know the Eastern Catholics Outnumber the Western Russians.

Plus the Russian candidate had Putin support, and Putin is evil. I wouldn't be surprised at all if the poisoning stories are true. Edit: It's already obvious that there was widespread fraud due to the reports from the international observers.

International Observers arent all that independant ;)

And Russians are in the East,Catholics are in the West,there a bit more Catholics
 

Azih

Member
ahah, if I had to choose between international observers and Putin, then well, as I've already said. Putin is evil.

Plus according to the CIA world fact book

Ethnic groups:
Ukrainian 77.8%, Russian 17.3%, Belarusian 0.6%, Moldovan 0.5%, Crimean Tatar 0.5%, Bulgarian 0.4%, Hungarian 0.3%, Romanian 0.3%, Polish 0.3%, Jewish 0.2%, other 1.8% (2001)
Religions:
Ukrainian Orthodox - Moscow Patriarchate 26.5%, Ukrainian Orthodox - Kiev Patriarchate 20%, Ukrainian Catholic (Uniate) 13%, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox, Protestant, Jewish

So. Ethnically speaking Russians are less than 20% of the population but from what you've yourself described, lord it over the rest of the 80% of the population.

And religiously, I'm assumming that the Moscow Patriachate is the same as Russian orthdoox, if that's the case then only a quarter qualify.. and yet they had all the plum positions in government hmmm?
 

Chopin Trusty Balls

First casualty in the war on idioticy.
Azih said:
ahah, if I had to choose between international observers and Putin, then well, as I've already said. Putin is evil.

Plus according to the CIA world fact book

Ethnic groups:
Ukrainian 77.8%, Russian 17.3%, Belarusian 0.6%, Moldovan 0.5%, Crimean Tatar 0.5%, Bulgarian 0.4%, Hungarian 0.3%, Romanian 0.3%, Polish 0.3%, Jewish 0.2%, other 1.8% (2001)
Religions:
Ukrainian Orthodox - Moscow Patriarchate 26.5%, Ukrainian Orthodox - Kiev Patriarchate 20%, Ukrainian Catholic (Uniate) 13%, Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox, Protestant, Jewish

So. Ethnically speaking Russians are less than 20% of the population but from what you've yourself described, lord it over the rest of the 80% of the population.

And religiously, I'm assumming that the Moscow Patriachate is the same as Russian orthdoox, if that's the case then only a quarter qualify.. and yet they had all the plum positions in government hmmm?

I am not sure how CIA splits people into Russians/Ukrainians,7 out 10 Biggest Ukrainian Companies are owned by Russians,almost all econicmaly important objects are located in the East,the Western part is very rural and poor.
 

Azih

Member
Fleming said:
I am not sure how CIA splits people into Russians/Ukrainians,7 out 10 Biggest Ukrainian Companies are owned by Russians,almost all econicmaly important objects are located in the East,the Western part is very rural and poor.

Look everything you've said so far is the fact that Russians have all the wealth and all the power. Which *newsflash* has nothing to do with population. In fact it only reinforces the notion that the Russian minority in Ukraine dominates the rest of the population, and are in fact used to being in charge, and thus makes it more likely that they'd resort to underhanded tricks to stay in power ESPECIALLY considering the fact that they make up only NINETEEN PERCENT OF THE COUNTRY. You're bringing a Russian prespective to this and it's disconcerting frankly because you dismiss the entire non Russian population of the Ukraine as rural, poor, backwards, a burden..... in fact not even worthy of consideration it seems.
 

Socreges

Banned
Fleming said:
I am not sure how CIA splits people into Russians/Ukrainians,7 out 10 Biggest Ukrainian Companies are owned by Russians,almost all econicmaly important objects are located in the East,the Western part is very rural and poor.
All the more reason for us to believe that the election was manipulated.

Everything points to that, at any rate. The Central Election Commission needs to be recreated and hold a second vote. Hell, bring in a third-party mediator (Switzerland) if either side is concerned of fraud.
 

Chopin Trusty Balls

First casualty in the war on idioticy.
Azih said:
Look everything you've said so far is the fact that Russians have all the wealth and all the power. Which *newsflash* has nothing to do with population. In fact it only reinforces the notion that the Russian minority in Ukraine dominates the rest of the population, and are in fact used to being in charge, and thus makes it more likely that they'd resort to underhanded tricks to stay in power ESPECIALLY considering the fact that they make up only NINETEEN PERCENT OF THE COUNTRY. You're bringing a Russian prespective to this and it's disconcerting frankly because you dismiss the entire non Russian population of the Ukraine as rural, poor, backwards, a burden..... in fact not even worthy of consideration it seems.

Actually Russians are more around 40%,Ukrainian 50%,and some other minorities for the rest.
The CIA Factbook isnt correct.

And btw Ukrainians have become a sort Mexicans in Russia,they(and some Chinese and Georgians) are doing all the lower level jobs,and there are many reports of Racist assaults due to the current events.
Fucked up situation.
 

Azih

Member
Fleming said:
Actually Russians are more around 40%,Ukrainian 50%,and some other minorities for the rest.
The CIA Factbook isnt correct.
Give me a link to some census, or some official breakdown of the Ukranian population or those figures won't fly. Because frankly I think you pulled those numbers out of thin air.

Edit:
And btw Ukrainians have become a sort Mexicans in Russia,they(and some Chinese and Georgians) are doing all the lower level jobs
I'm not sure how that has anything to do with the current discussion.. was it some sort of an interesting aside? Or are you trying to bolster your argument that non Russian Ukranians are backwards, poor, rural, a burden?
 

Socreges

Banned
Fleming said:
Actually Russians are more around 40%,Ukrainian 50%,and some other minorities for the rest.
The CIA Factbook isnt correct.
And where do you get your numbers from? I've heard a variety thrown around, but they're often close to ~20-25%.

And btw Ukrainians have become a sort Mexicans in Russia,they(and some Chinese and Georgians) are doing all the lower level jobs,and there are many reports of Racist assaults due to the current events.
Fucked up situation.
Alright. Then let's see a leader of Ukraine that isn't pro-Moscow (a la Kuchma).
 

Chopin Trusty Balls

First casualty in the war on idioticy.
Ok so the official number is 22%,but Ukrainians with Moscow Patriarchy who also live in the East are Pro Russian and could be described as Russians.

Here is some stats
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Bev.C3.B6lkerung

And my point is,all those people Protesting have been brought there with Buses,Trains and even Aircrafts for free(well US Funds paid for it,the same Funds who financed comparable organizations in Serbia and Georgia),they are also gave them Tents,Field Kitchen and Mobile Power generators,thier speakers are heating up the Crowd.

As for Independant Observers,where have they been in Serbia when a half Million of Serbs couldnt vote because there were Albanians armed in front of every Voting point, killing 5 and wounding around hundred that day,i havnt heard a criticque on Afghanistan either,and i guess we wont hear anything about Iraq.
 

Saturnman

Banned
Fleming said:
Ok so the official number is 22%,but Ukrainians with Moscow Patriarchy who also live in the East are Pro Russian and could be described as Russians.

Here is some stats
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukraine#Bev.C3.B6lkerung

And my point is,all those people Protesting have been brought there with Buses,Trains and even Aircrafts for free(well US Funds paid for it,the same Funds who financed comparable organizations in Serbia and Georgia),they are also gave them Tents,Field Kitchen and Mobile Power generators,thier speakers are heating up the Crowd.

As for Independant Observers,where have they been in Serbia when a half Million of Serbs couldnt vote because there were Albanians armed in front of every Voting point, killing 5 and wounding around hundred that day,i havnt heard a criticque on Afghanistan either,and i guess we wont hear anything about Iraq.

I wonder if Israel got the idea of settlements in occupied territories from the Soviets.
 

Saturnman

Banned
The Baltic states have large Russian minorities, encouraged during Soviet era to move there and neutralize separatist movements.
 

Azih

Member
Fleming said:
Ok so the official number is 22%,but Ukrainians with Moscow Patriarchy who also live in the East are Pro Russian and could be described as Russians.

And my point is,all those people Protesting have been brought there with Buses,Trains and even Aircrafts for free(well US Funds paid for it,the same Funds who financed comparable organizations in Serbia and Georgia),they are also gave them Tents,Field Kitchen and Mobile Power generators,thier speakers are heating up the Crowd

That's the first time I've heard that. You got anything to back that up or should I file it under conspiracy theory? Also what the the heck difference does it make?

Stats: oddly enough, I can't speak Russian/Ukranian so I don't know what the heck that says. But even if you take Moscow Patriarchy into account that's still only A QUARTER OF THE POPULATION.
 
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