Instigator
Banned
trippingmartian said:
Which makes the need to worship him even more puzzling. Do you have to pay constant respect to a biological dad who is completely absent from your life?
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Because GAF Hates Jesus.
- Thread starter Macam
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Which makes the need to worship him even more puzzling. Do you have to pay constant respect to a biological dad who is completely absent from your life?
Late Stage Marxist
Member
He's more like an ancestor that you'll never get the chance to meet, except perhaps in your afterlife, if there is such a thing.Instigator said:
Late Stage Marxist
Member
They're made in God's image. Also: man did not design the universe and probably never will. Sure we may be able to clone, but we're really just copying source code.Raoul Duke said:
DonasaurusRex said:
OMG. SHUT THE HELL UP! Idiots and their incomprehensible brain dumps. Form fucking arguments before you write, instead of incoherent blatherings that sounds kinda nice in your head.
Sick of reading these posts with emotionally charged tones without actual content to them. Like they feel because everyone else is getting up in a huff, they have to too.
Belief in God and the Day of Judgement shows us that true justice occurs in the hereafter, and that the wrongs of this world will be fixed on the Day of Judgement.
So things like death, and the injustices of this World are all part of life. If someone is looking for true justice in this World from God, they aren't going to get it because God has been clear that the time for true justice and fairness will come on the Day of Judgement.
It's so easy and simple it seems odd for me that people would be confused about it.
So things like death, and the injustices of this World are all part of life. If someone is looking for true justice in this World from God, they aren't going to get it because God has been clear that the time for true justice and fairness will come on the Day of Judgement.
It's so easy and simple it seems odd for me that people would be confused about it.
Drinky Crow
Banned
uh
Late Stage Marxist
Member
uh
Dice
Pokémon Parentage Conspiracy Theorist
He is all-encompassing. The Creator.Zaptruder said:
Triune, unchanging, sovereign, all-knowing, all-powerful; infinitely holy, loving, wise, just, merciful and good.
He simply always has been, he is eternal. His plan is to demonstrate his righteousness and glory in the heavens and the earth. He has already done so by many of his creations (in our case our creation is an action of love toward us), but he will also do so by showing mercy to some through Christ, and in dealing with all who do not receive Christ with the same justice and wrath Christ received on behalf of those that did receive him. Since God is the creator and unchanging, it's reasonable to think that creative works are a constant, on-going process with him and he may be creating or planning to create things we don't know about. But he hasn't told us of them so that's a mystery we don't know of for sure.
What things on earth do we give adoration and allegiance to? That which has earned it, by status or by accomplishment. God is greater than all else, if not merely by the fact of his own greatness then on the merit that he created you, and if not by that then by the fact he is giving you every second of your existence and every good thing you have. If anything is worthy of any finite amount of adoration, then God is worthy of that same amount times infinity simply because of who he is but also because of all that he has done and does.
It doesn't exist. Science is based on naturalistic observation and God is supernatural. Science looks for what is replicable and you can't replicate God or any of his actions. The only place to find the reality of God is in the dealings of your own heart. If you simply don't have that faith, have you ever asked him to show himself to you and give you that faith? It might seem silly, but he exists then faith in him is a good thing, and if he is the giver of all good things it makes sense to ask.
Faith. So how do I know Dr Seuss isn't scripture? Faith. Additionally, just by the extent to which its teachings have shown true in my life and how accurately I think it has describes the heart of man including my own. Maybe that doesn't make complete sense, but I can't decide your own belief for you. I'm only a witness--I can tell you what I've seen and belief is up to you.
You can misunderstand certain aspects of the nature of God and yet be believing in the same one. However, like with anyone there reaches a point to which you are using the same name but obviously not talking about the same person anymore. Since I don't have a perfect understanding of God I don't know where that line is crossed, that's up to him to judge. However, I do know that some misunderstandings can direct a person to rely on things other than God even when in some sense trying to live for him--it's a form of idolatry that the Israelites often slipped into.
I already dealt with this, but I'll try to rephrase in short. God is not an agent of evil, but he is in control of all agents of evil--lest he be thwarted in many of his dealings. Being eternal in nature, God's view of the ultimate goodness of events is not based on the single event but also it's outcome. He will bring everything to a satisfactory, good and just end. Any injustice will be paid back in full, any pain will be healed and beyond. If this idea differs from ones own idea of good, then no, we don't reclassify God but we redefine how we understand goodness because God is the one who has defined all things.
I just answered this a couple questions ago. We study his word to find the truth and follow it as best as we can, he'll work out the rest. Do you think God will damn someone for some confusion about his nature? How much minsunderstanding does it take? I don't know, I can't make that call because there is only one judge and that is God. I believe he is a perfectly just God with a perfect perspective and all wisdom, so whatever he decides will be right.
Now, I know you said no scripture but this is aside from your questions I'll say this... I know that many christians try to prove the things of God, but if that were possible we'd all be christians. They do this based on what I believe to be a misinterpretation of 1 Peter 3:15. I don't think the "reason" for my belief that verse talks about is ontological evidence or proof. It seems to me that 1 John 4:13 considers God's Spirit within me as reason enough, so that will do and that's my answer.
Does it make reasonable sense? No, but if my answer made total logical sense I'd be concerned, because 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 promises in ample detail that faith in Christ doesn't make sense, even that it will be considered foolishness by most people. But as it is, it doesn't make sense even to myself. My faith is simply there, since it's been there my life has been a lot better, and I think I've experienced God himself--and not by some external means, but in my own heart where the perspective and interpretation of my eyes can't confuse things. Those verses describe it as the power and wisdom of God, and that simple description is the best I could ever put it.
I hope you can recognize that I'm a reasonable man who understands the rules of logic. So what would cause a reasonable man to go against his own best reason? Hebrews 11;1 says that faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. So maybe this faith I have is your evidence, maybe that's where God shows himself in this world. Call me a fool or call it the power of God upon my heart, all I know is that I can't deny it--it's unshakable no matter what understanding I have in my mind.
So I guess if you wanted to show that my faith doesn't follow the reasoning of man or that it's plain foolish--I'm glad I could help, haha. Honestly, as one who is trying to follow Christ's example I think helping the broken is a higher priority than sitting around trying to prove myself to everyone through arguments anyway. So I hope this is enough of what you wanted to know about my beliefs, because I think once we understand one another it's only trouble to try and go an extra step and force change in the other.
brooklyngooner
Member
my cat's breath smells like cat food
Boogie said:
Thus far, the atheists are a lot more concise, which I think is what he's getting at. If you're going to be incoherent, at least be quick about it.
I agree, those posts don't really deserve such aggression. I, for one, couldn't stop laughing at what Bomba was writing. "The way god works is like this"? "It really is vitally important"? Just golden.
Drinky Crow
Banned
Man, if dramatically regurgitating dogma can make Dice and Bomba so pointlessly prolix, imagine what it could do for me!
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Loki.
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Loki.
Warm Machine
Member
It is simple! God be praised if things so right, nature, politics, humanity, society, etc. be damned if things go wrong.
why does gaf have such a problem with people practicing their own religions?
i'll never understand athiests who take it upon themselves to wreck the beliefs of everyone else. Always just seems kind of mean and coldhearted and completely unnecessary. I mean, convince them that their beliefs are their own and not yours, yes. But why does everyone get a hardon for trying to prove that God doesn't exist? It's nothing to be proud of.
i'll never understand athiests who take it upon themselves to wreck the beliefs of everyone else. Always just seems kind of mean and coldhearted and completely unnecessary. I mean, convince them that their beliefs are their own and not yours, yes. But why does everyone get a hardon for trying to prove that God doesn't exist? It's nothing to be proud of.
Because there's religious right wackos that think they can make laws based of their beliefs and enforce them on all people. My quarrel is with them.
I don't try to shove it in people's faces.
I'm an agnostic, but I used to be a Christian. I used to think that in general atheists shove it in people's faces, but then I got to college and had the crazy religious people screaming on the streets that women that had abortions regardless of circumstances, homosexuals and thieves (as if the previous two are comparable) were going to hell. They go out over fvcking weekend and try to give you pamphlets and ask you if ya've been saveeedah.
Around that time I began paying attention to politics...and well these people's influence on society.
There's bastards on both sides. I focus on the ones that try to make our nation a theology. The overspoken atheists are lame too, but that's their right to freedom of speech. I don't recall them making laws banning churches.
Kai Dracon
Writing a dinosaur space opera symphony
whytemyke said:
Except to some athiests and self-professed materialists skeptics it is something to be proud of. Some people do it because they're egostistical and/or condescending toward those who they consider ignorant. It's ironic actually that the "manifesto" originally posted uses what today would be considered wonky, fringe beliefs - such as a literal belief in Zeus - as examples. Because frequently, people wouldn't think anything of a person being attacked or mocked for believing in something like that. But there is where you can really see the arrogance of some people show up - you can find some pretty insulting and hostile attacks by so-called rationalists on metaphysical beliefs that aren't mainstream. But only a relative few among atheists have the chutzpa or ego to attack the big religions with the same zeal, things that more people consider to be "more real" than the minority ideas.
However, I believe for a lot of atheists and rationalists, it's not so much ego that drives them to attack religion, but fear. They're afraid of their image of crazy, superstitious, irrational people using their beliefs to justify insane and damaging behavior. Their fear can make them see religion/metaphysics as inherently crackpot, inherently "bad" from an intellectual perspective. I know some athiests like this; believe me when I say that they really don't want to hurt anyone. They don't want to interfere with the thinking of other people - they wish the entire issue would just go away. But they're very afraid; and I have to give them that with so many stripes of fundamentalism (not just "christian") making so much noise around the world today, there's a lot to justify their fear.
I used to get really mad at religious people until I argued with a few of them offline. They have a sort of sad desperation that can really only come across in person. I always felt like I was stealing something very precious from them, and their acute fear of losing their imaginary friend was so earnest that it almost broke my heart.
I still hate these online assholes, though. And don't even get me started about the political repercussions of their beliefs.
I still hate these online assholes, though. And don't even get me started about the political repercussions of their beliefs.
Drinky Crow
Banned
I'm not so much confused as I am appalled
Boogie said:
The two I quoted were christians?
Actually I think they were sitting on the fence people, cherry picking from both sides in order to appease their lack of thinking on the subject. You know... just a sponge of generic mishmash spirituality.
No, I'm just riling against posts that are hard to read and don't mean anything (or less than nothing).
Dice. Faith. Scientology. These three things are interconnected somehow.
Kaijima said:
How about a moral belief that humanity shouldn't labor under a delusion? I'd be happy to let religion be if it would only be smiles all around... but that's far from the truth.
Not only does it dramatically distort our understanding of the world, we allow so many of our own to labor under so much pain and sufferring because there's hope that it'll be better regardless of what happens in THIS life.
When you begin to have an inkling of how dramatically religion and unfounded, illogical memes affect the fabric of humanity, then you might reconsider the stance of religion as "been 'harmless' as long as they keep it to themselves."
Well I think it's quite obvious that there's a lot of an intellectual elitism going on among athiests that I just don't quite get. And I used to really believe that there wasn't a God, until I backed off and simply stuck to my guns on the "I don't know" thing. I think that in order to profess with certainty one way or the other requires both a lot of arrogance and a lot of blind faith. Just as athiests believe there's no God, everyone else believes there is a God.
And I understand having a problem with Christians who want to change the nation, but there's a large difference between coming on here asking them to stop trouncing your rights, and coming on here and revelling in the feeling that one causes by talking down various holy books.
In general, all I see when I see people set on changing everyone else is a sense of fear or immaturity, or some sense of both. At least Christians are indoctrinated generally by their churches to go out and invade rights, yet so many atheists are so busy defending their right not to believe, that they then impede on other peoples rights to believe.
And then let me get to a greater idea here, too... is it really that bad to have religion? It just seems like as long as people believe in religion, there's a sense of magic and awe that comes along with it, insofar as the idea that anything can happen. Do you all really want to live in a world where we know that not anything can happen? Do you really want to live in a world simply defined by natural laws? So many good things we have in this world today stems from people whose sole purpose for creating it was their belief in God of some sort or another. Why are people so hasty to ruin it? It just really bums me out when I see everyone attacking each other like this with no real cause... and I'm not speaking out of line here because I've seen it happen in damn near every thread, where once a believer speaks up, three or four other people try to slam them for a) being stupid by believing and b) trashing books which aren't considered historically accurate anyways.
Being right isn't the most important thing in the world... believe it or not.
And the same could be said for you... when you begin to have an inkling of how dramatically religion and unfounded, illogical memes affect the fabric of humanity, then you might reconsider your own stance on religion.
But then, if we're going to attack religion for being the downfall of so many people throughout history, I suppose we better dispel the idea of government too, right? I mean, if we're going to be fair here, governments have killed just as many, if not more people than religion has throughout history, and if we're going to eliminate ideals for which people can aim, maybe equality in representation can be there too, hm? One might say these are separate issues but I consider them equal. Both are capable of doing amazing things when in the right hands and heinous thinsg when in the wrong hands... yet it is only religion which we blame wholeheartedly for the wrongs instead of those who used the religion.
Is American Democracy the reason the people in Iraq are toiling... or is it perhaps the person weilding democracy?
Extreme decisions and measures get nobody anything. Remember that.
And I understand having a problem with Christians who want to change the nation, but there's a large difference between coming on here asking them to stop trouncing your rights, and coming on here and revelling in the feeling that one causes by talking down various holy books.
In general, all I see when I see people set on changing everyone else is a sense of fear or immaturity, or some sense of both. At least Christians are indoctrinated generally by their churches to go out and invade rights, yet so many atheists are so busy defending their right not to believe, that they then impede on other peoples rights to believe.
And then let me get to a greater idea here, too... is it really that bad to have religion? It just seems like as long as people believe in religion, there's a sense of magic and awe that comes along with it, insofar as the idea that anything can happen. Do you all really want to live in a world where we know that not anything can happen? Do you really want to live in a world simply defined by natural laws? So many good things we have in this world today stems from people whose sole purpose for creating it was their belief in God of some sort or another. Why are people so hasty to ruin it? It just really bums me out when I see everyone attacking each other like this with no real cause... and I'm not speaking out of line here because I've seen it happen in damn near every thread, where once a believer speaks up, three or four other people try to slam them for a) being stupid by believing and b) trashing books which aren't considered historically accurate anyways.
Being right isn't the most important thing in the world... believe it or not.
Does it really distort our understanding of the world moreso than ethnocentrism does? Than CNN does, or Hollywood? You're attempting to justify taking away so much that people have all because it provides people with an illusion. What exactly is so wrong with hope?zaptruder said:
And the same could be said for you... when you begin to have an inkling of how dramatically religion and unfounded, illogical memes affect the fabric of humanity, then you might reconsider your own stance on religion.
But then, if we're going to attack religion for being the downfall of so many people throughout history, I suppose we better dispel the idea of government too, right? I mean, if we're going to be fair here, governments have killed just as many, if not more people than religion has throughout history, and if we're going to eliminate ideals for which people can aim, maybe equality in representation can be there too, hm? One might say these are separate issues but I consider them equal. Both are capable of doing amazing things when in the right hands and heinous thinsg when in the wrong hands... yet it is only religion which we blame wholeheartedly for the wrongs instead of those who used the religion.
Is American Democracy the reason the people in Iraq are toiling... or is it perhaps the person weilding democracy?
Extreme decisions and measures get nobody anything. Remember that.
whytemyke said:
These kinds of arguments would hold more water with me if we had exhausted our capacity of knowledge with regards to natural laws and the universe, but we've only been really making tremendous progress in the last few centuries in particular. I view the world as anything but simple, and there's a tremendous sense of magic and awe to me when I read about things like the latest scientific breakthroughs or a new astronomy report. Moreover, anything can happen, but that's a relative comparison against the religious types of events. I, and most scientific evidence, suggests that collecting every species on the planet in pairs and putting them on an ark won't happen any time soon, but I don't think because things of that nature can't or won't happen doesn't take away from what can happen from a secular viewpoint. Being an atheist doesn't equate to living some unfulfilling, soulless existence.
Look, I don't care what people believe. But when it comes to the public sphere in terms of government and legislation, leave the religion at home. Kajima certainly made a valid point. You know something? It creeps me the fuck out when I hear government officials attempting to justify the Ten Commandments being perched outside a court of justice, when the president goes slinking the word "crusade" into public speeches, when Texas governors sign legislation on a religious school's grounds, and so on.
Warm Machine
Member
demon said:
Yeah. Besides, the only people who can feel that their beliefs are impeded are themselves. Until someone puts a gun to their head and forces them in one way or another there is simply no such thing. Even then, what one professes verbally is not necessarily what is going on inside their head.
whytemyke said:
Being an Agnostic, IMO, is a cop-out. When I don't have any reason to believe something--any concrete or factual data beyond, "well maybe this", type grasping--I tend not to believe it until events (/etc) demonstrate otherwise. I'm open to the possibility, but all signs point to "no," so I'll think no.
That doesn't mean one has to be an obnoxious asshole about the whole thing, like oh... 99.9_ % of Atheists out there.*
Your comments about government and so on are not worth addressing however.
Macam said:
They're legislating for a religious people, who feel that religion has a valid role in shaping public policy. There's a fine line, but that is different than actually establishing a state religion, which is the line that's been drawn for the US. People's beliefs, people's philosophies, people's sense of spirituality, and so on, definitely shape their policies, and to say people should "leave [that bit of what guides their lives] at home" is arrogant and also impossible.
* [ technically that's all of them though ]
Callo Merlose
Banned
APF said:That doesn't mean one has to be an obnoxious asshole about the whole thing, like oh... 99.9_ % of Atheists out there.*
Your comments about government and so on are not worth addressing however.
* [ technically that's all of them though ]
*hands you a kevlar vest*
Drinky Crow
Banned
mmm, conservatives arguing for the tyranny of the majority
jesus and jefferson am cry
jesus and jefferson am cry
CabbageRed
Member
"Being an Agnostic, IMO, is a cop-out. When I don't have any reason to believe something--any concrete or factual data beyond, "well maybe this", type grasping--I tend not to believe it until events (/etc) demonstrate otherwise. I'm open to the possibility, but all signs point to "no," so I'll think no."
A cop-out? That seems a bit harsh. Obviously, there is a lot left unexplained and much that never will be and in turn there are those of us who are not compelled to fill in the blanks with assumptions. Until we have more of the factual data you are talking about, a simple "yes" or "no" answer to "is there a higher power" are equally questionable.
A cop-out? That seems a bit harsh. Obviously, there is a lot left unexplained and much that never will be and in turn there are those of us who are not compelled to fill in the blanks with assumptions. Until we have more of the factual data you are talking about, a simple "yes" or "no" answer to "is there a higher power" are equally questionable.
I think I explained my position clearly enough: I tend not to believe things I have no evidence of. Further, if you allow yourself to not to hold a position one way or another, regarding any issue about which someone can uncover a point of contention--with someone, somewhere--you will never be able to believe anything.CabbageRed said:
CabbageRed
Member
APF said:
You made yourself perfectly clear about the way you view things
, it was the "cop-out" comment that I was responding to.As for not believing anything, to extent I think that is healthy. Obviously, to some degree one has to make certain assuptions to get through life sane. However, over the very short period of time that our species has been kicking around, what we "know" has changed a great deal and will continue to do so. Being open to that change is, in my opinion, key in moving forward as an individual and as a species.
In the end, my point is that some of us do not feel the need to live in a concrete universe and that is in no way a cop-out.
So because one side has bigger numbers than the other, automatically it makes it right? There's more white people in the US today than any other minority... does that preclude any white people from feeling persecuted when people try and attack them? Attacking peoples beliefs goes both ways, regardless of numbers or who believe them. Who are athiests to dis believers and then scream bloody murder when believers dis them back? It's really a two way street, and just because 100 times the people drive on one side of it doesn't mean that it's no longer a two way street.demon said:
Well, I appreciate the personal attack against me, and I also appreciate your ability to jump to one side or the other. If anyone ever calls you a fence-sitter in this debate, rest assured I'll have your back. But what's so wrong with saying you don't know? I mean, really... can you prove to me that God doesn't exist? Can you account for each and every miniscule little piece of happenstance or coincidence in the universe, and then give me solid, 100% proof that it was indeed all coincidence? I somehow doubt it. You BELIEVE it's a coincidence and that nothing is related... just like people who worship God via any religious medium believe that it is a coincidence and that EVERYTHING is related.APF said:
Now, if you asked me in a court of law which side I'm tilting to, I'd say "No God." But I can't say that with any certainty, and since you seem to be a numbers guy, I'll take it to mean that you understand that without a 100% certainty, everything is just conjecture.
No offense, but just because I brought the comparison to government into this doesn't mean I'm arguing about the separation of church and state. My personal belief is that EVERYBODY should be made to learn about the biggest religions in the world with respect to a social studies type course once they reach high school. No point in teaching these kids about the rest of the world if you're not going to help them understand how they think. But at the end of the day, I'm just as against politicians bringing religion into federal situations, because it's against the Constitution. Not because I'm against religion or anything.Macam said:
And whoever said they weren't gonna touch my government vs. religion debate as a societal evil, don't be afraid to take a stand. If you think i'm wrong, tell me how I'm wrong. However, I don't think I am and until people quit using rhetoric to downplay my points, I'm going to assume it's only because they've got nothing worthwhile to say in contrast to my argument.
on a sidenote here... does anyone else get really pissed when they're going through some bad times and people are like, "Oh just believe in Jesus! He'll get you through it!" or "I'm sure it's all a part of God's plan."
FUCK YOU! if YOU were God would you try and help every little bad thing that happens to everyone down here? FUCK NO. He cant even stop the BIG ones, what makes me think he's gonna help me with MY shit? Nothing. So GOOD DAY, SIR!
FUCK YOU! if YOU were God would you try and help every little bad thing that happens to everyone down here? FUCK NO. He cant even stop the BIG ones, what makes me think he's gonna help me with MY shit? Nothing. So GOOD DAY, SIR!
Christians are more vocal about their beliefs than almost anyone, and especially when their doctrine is being inappropriately used to run this country, they're leaving themselves open to criticism to say the least. Their beliefs are being "impeded" on? BullSHIT.whytemyke said:
I probably should note that when I refer to people getting shouted down in my first two posts, it was only in reference to GAF, and not 'the real world'.demon said:
And yes, their beliefs are being impeded. Regardless of number a people should have the right to believe what they want without getting shouted down. I'm sorry that you believe the minority deserves some special right, but it doesn't. It deserves the equal right as everyone else. If you're going to ask the loud annoying Christians to keep their views to themselves, then they certainly shouldn't be subjected to loud annoying athiests spouting off about how stupid and boorish christianity is, lest you look like a hypocrite.
Also, how about instead of blaming the Christians for their doctrine which is being used, you blame the people trying to manipulate the doctrine? This just goes back to my original point, that nobody is willing to address, that religion is just as lethal as government... no more, no less. It all depends on who's doing the manipulation and the ends that manipulation is meant to achieve.
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