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[Lashley]

Would you say that about transgender people as well?

No.

Are you a fucking moron? How can you compare the two?

 

[SmokyDave]

It's interesting that so many people are saying nothing is lost or impeded when transitioning from male to female (unlike able-bodied to disabled). Seems male privilege ain't worth what it used to be.

The ability to reproduce is not as important as the ability to walk, hear, see.

That's right. I said that.
Come at me, bros.

You're probably right. I'll tell you one thing though, you can take both my arms and both my legs before you can take my daughter.

 

[Transhuman]

No.

Are you a fucking moron? How can you compare the two?

They're analogous in the sense that their perception of their bodies doesn't match how their brains are telling them their bodies ought to be.

The main difference is the fact that trans people have normal brains, it's just that the body surrounding is of an incompatible gender with that brain. People with BIID have normal bodies, but their brains have abnormalities. Maybe down the line drugs or some sort of chemical or physical therapy could repair or inhibit this abnormality, but no amount of drugs is going to turn a female brain into a male brain, or vice-versa.

 

[Necromanti]

It's interesting that so many people are saying nothing is lost or impeded when transitioning from male to female (unlike able-bodied to disabled). Seems male privilege ain't worth what it used to be.


You're probably right. I'll tell you one thing though, you can take both my arms and both my legs before you can take my daughter.

I'd imagine people who still wanted biological children could freeze and preserve their sperm or eggs for the future. Adoption is always an option, as well.

 

[hendersonhank]

That is practically word for word exact same argument people used for deriding transgender people some decades ago. If there's actual scientific research that says these people are not mentally ill, but instead have the neural mapping gone wrong in some places, I'm not going to ignore that.

Screwed up neural mapping vs mental illness, what's the difference? Why is chopping off limbs okay in one instance vs the other?

 

[keuja]

as someone who identifies as otherkin i agree with this post, i do not need mental help nor am i strange for wanting to identify as a lone fox howling near the river

Wait... what?

 

[FortuneFaded]

You're probably right. I'll tell you one thing though, you can take both my arms and both my legs before you can take my daughter.

This could be taken two ways; either it shows how much you love your daughter or you want to have your legs and arms removed.

 

[SmokyDave]

I'd imagine people who still wanted biological children could freeze and preserve their sperm or eggs for the future. Adoption is always an option, as well.

Oh sure, it's a totally different thing with totally different ramifications. I was just idly musing that although I agree losing reproductive capacity isn't as 'disabling' as losing a limb, I'd much rather lose all my limbs than I would lose the result of my ability to procreate. I'm not really making any point, just rambling.

This could be taken two ways; either it shows how much you love your daughter or you want to have your legs and arms removed.

Maybe I quite like the kid, and have an 'on and off' relationship with my limbs?

 

[FaustsBoon]

One way or another, i'm wondering how certain positions will look in 10 years.
But yeah, whether this is a form of mental illness, or something else, there's no reason to ridicule these people.

Sure there is...

As a person born with a physical, and severe disability which has impacted my life in every way, every day... these people feel equivalent to walking around in black-face, claiming they felt black inside, and should be treated as the race they FEEL they should have been born, despite it not being genetic truth.

Edit: Incidentally, as I didn't state it very eloquently let me add...

I am sincerely repulsed by this, because it feels like people co-opting my culture, pain, and struggles. I STILL have to fight for things like benefits, or accessibility on a regular basis. I have had to halt promising career moves because a suddenly non-working power-wheelchair leaves me homebound, while looking for ways to fund a repair. There are real challenges the disabled (born, or created through tragedy) face that we as a society have yet to find good answers to.

Adding individuals who for whatever reason want to distract from real debate does nothing but diminish us as a society.

THAT ALL SAID, I would be a hypocrite if I didn't say they have every right to see themselves however they wish, or act in this fool-hardy way. I can be repulsed, and hate that we are even having this discussion, but I would never deny them their right to do this. I am simply using my own right to say that I will not embrace or support this cause in any way, and will not go out of my way to share the limited resources the disabled already get, with such individuals.

And I do stand by my assessment that, born out of mental disorder or not, this is akin to a white-person donning black-face, and claiming it is who they are inside. I feel like if that happened outrage would be more universal, but the vast majority of supporters of this here, likewise, likely, don't know what it is to be disabled either, and it makes it easier to misunderstand the relationship a disabled person has with their identity.

 

[FortuneFaded]

Maybe I quite like the kid, and have an 'on and off' relationship with my limbs?

Is today an off day then?

 

[Metra]

As far as I know, BIID's etiology is currently unknown. "Transsexualism" (quotation marks because I'm using a generic, umbrella term), on the other hand, is known to be related to sexual differentiation of the brain. In fact, some studies (1, 2) on the brains of male-to-female transsexuals have found that the sexual differentiation of stria terminalis' bed nucleus (a region of the brain) follows a female pattern.

With that said, at this moment - unless there's evidence showing otherwise - anyone comparing "transsexualism" to BIID is endorsing an induction-based fallacy.

And regarding the "transsexual x transabled" argument/comparison:
Surgical treatment is an option for gender dysphoria because there's evidence showing that the benefits surpasses the risks involved. It's the last step of treatment, and there's a well-defined criteria for surgery eligibility:

- Are of the legal age of majority in their nation.
- Have used cross-sex hormones continuously and responsibly during 12 months (if they have no medical contraindication).
- Had a successful continuous full-time real life experience (RLE) during 12 months.
- Have (if required by the mental health professional [MHP]) regularly participated in psychotherapy throughout the RLE at a frequency determined jointly by the patient and the MHP.
- Have shown demonstrable knowledge of all practical aspects of surgery (eg, cost, required lengths of hospitalizations, likely complications, postsurgical rehabilitation, etc).
Source

BIID, on the other hand, is a rare condition and - as far as I know - there's no evidence that the benefits of surgery surpasses the risks, nor medical criteria for eligible patients.

Also, it's not my intention to prove anyone wrong. I'm simply stating - based on evidence available at this moment - why comparing BIID to "transsexualism" is misguided (from a medical perspective, at least). Oh, and as I said before - based on what's currently known - only gender dysphoria is considered a "mental illness"; transgender, transsexual and gender nonconformity are not disorders.

 

[Principate]

There already was discussion about how much of an advantage Oscar Pistorious might have with his artificial legs. Though I agree that when it's about actually replacing a limb, meaning that you actually having feeling in it etc., that's very far off, if ever.


Obviously depends on the reasons for doing so. If it stems from "those legs are not my own" likely yes. If it comes from "those legs are better than organic ones" maybe not.

No it's not there's prototypes that exist right now in terms of pressure sensitivity for artificial limps..

 

[braves01]

No.

Are you a fucking moron? How can you compare the two?

No need for insults, I only asked because transgender and transable are very similar.

these people feel equivalent to walking around in black-face, claiming they felt black inside, and should be treated as the race they FEEL they should have been born, despite it not being genetic truth.

/

I'm not sure that wouldn't be okay, as it also seems very similar to both transgender and transable and could be a step towards skin color modification if necessary/medically possible. Someone could neurologically not match their outward skin color/ethnic appearance and want to reconcile that with their identity. In fact, it might be even less problematic than transgender or transable if there's less medical risk or loss of function.

 

[Metra]

No need for insults, I only asked because transgender and transable are very similar.

Do you have any source?

 

[braves01]

Do you have any source?

I know you're getting at the point there's not enough medical study done yet, but the conditions appear analogous on their face. So I guess I should have said they appear very similar and there's no medical evidence suggesting they're not at this point.

 

[Metra]

I know you're getting at the point there's not enough medical study done yet, but the conditions appear analogous on their face. So I guess I should have said they appear very similar and there's no medical evidence suggesting they're not at this point.

I think that's another fallacy, braves. It's called argument from ignorance ("lack of evidence to the contrary").
But I digress.

 

[King Tubby]

Would you say that about transgender people as well?

Transgender isn't self-harm, it's an alteration with a side effect that may or may not be distressing but still is outweighed by all of the psychological benefits (and a widely accepted loss of fertility that many people undertake on a voluntary basis, ex. vasectomy). People trying to disable themselves are self-destructive to a completely different degree.

It's like the difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. They're both "fringe" sexual orientations that aren't controllable and don't fit into the mainstream, and are ostracized in society to varying degrees. We accept homosexuality substantially more than pedophilia because of the negative effects of the latter on society and people (as well as other things, but in a basic sense), regardless of the fact that as sexual orientations they both occupy a similar element of a person's fundamental identity.

 

[braves01]

I think that's another fallacy, braves. It's called argument from ignorance ("lack of evidence to the contrary").
But I digress.

I don't think it's purely argument from ignorance because there is some evidence in the form of reported symptoms and alleviation of symptoms via modification. Obviously the sufficiency of that evidence can and should be called into question. There needs to be further study no doubt, but it's not as baseless as me claiming there's a giant cat at the center of the universe for example.

 

[Metra]

I don't think it's purely argument from ignorance because there is some evidence in the form of reported symptoms and alleviation of symptoms via modification. Obviously the sufficiency of that evidence can and should be called into question. There needs to be further study no doubt, but it's not as baseless as me claiming there's a giant cat at the center of the universe for example.

I see. I'd like to note that it's not my intention to ridicule you.

I disagree, however, with the claim that "transsexualism" and BIID are similar, and my arguments have been presented above. With that said, I don't think I could add anything more to this discussion.

 

[JasonUresti]

Sure there is...

As a person born with a physical, and severe disability which has impacted my life in every way, every day... these people feel equivalent to walking around in black-face, claiming they felt black inside, and should be treated as the race they FEEL they should have been born, despite it not being genetic truth.

Edit: Incidentally, as I didn't state it very eloquently let me add...

I am sincerely repulsed by this, because it feels like people co-opting my culture, pain, and struggles. I STILL have to fight for things like benefits, or accessibility on a regular basis. I have had to halt promising career moves because a suddenly non-working power-wheelchair leaves me homebound, while looking for ways to fund a repair. There are real challenges the disabled (born, or created through tragedy) face that we as a society have yet to find good answers to.

Adding individuals who for whatever reason want to distract from real debate does nothing but diminish us as a society.

THAT ALL SAID, I would be a hypocrite if I didn't say they have every right to see themselves however they wish, or act in this fool-hardy way. I can be repulsed, and hate that we are even having this discussion, but I would never deny them their right to do this. I am simply using my own right to say that I will not embrace or support this cause in any way, and will not go out of my way to share the limited resources the disabled already get, with such individuals.

And I do stand by my assessment that, born out of mental disorder or not, this is akin to a white-person donning black-face, and claiming it is who they are inside. I feel like if that happened outrage would be more universal, but the vast majority of supporters of this here, likewise, likely, don't know what it is to be disabled either, and it makes it easier to misunderstand the relationship a disabled person has with their identity.

That is nonsense. So you think a person who was disturbed/distressed/ill enough to chop off or mangle their own limbs in a sad quest to gain some sense of relief is worthy of ridicule because they are, somehow, stepping on your turf? That is repulsive.

 

[BajiBoxer]

Sure there is...

As a person born with a physical, and severe disability which has impacted my life in every way, every day... these people feel equivalent to walking around in black-face, claiming they felt black inside, and should be treated as the race they FEEL they should have been born, despite it not being genetic truth.

Edit: Incidentally, as I didn't state it very eloquently let me add...

I am sincerely repulsed by this, because it feels like people co-opting my culture, pain, and struggles. I STILL have to fight for things like benefits, or accessibility on a regular basis. I have had to halt promising career moves because a suddenly non-working power-wheelchair leaves me homebound, while looking for ways to fund a repair. There are real challenges the disabled (born, or created through tragedy) face that we as a society have yet to find good answers to.

Adding individuals who for whatever reason want to distract from real debate does nothing but diminish us as a society.

THAT ALL SAID, I would be a hypocrite if I didn't say they have every right to see themselves however they wish, or act in this fool-hardy way. I can be repulsed, and hate that we are even having this discussion, but I would never deny them their right to do this. I am simply using my own right to say that I will not embrace or support this cause in any way, and will not go out of my way to share the limited resources the disabled already get, with such individuals.

And I do stand by my assessment that, born out of mental disorder or not, this is akin to a white-person donning black-face, and claiming it is who they are inside. I feel like if that happened outrage would be more universal, but the vast majority of supporters of this here, likewise, likely, don't know what it is to be disabled either, and it makes it easier to misunderstand the relationship a disabled person has with their identity.

Honestly, I find it hard to be angry or outraged at someone who feels they need to remove their limbs regardless of your feelings that these people are co-opting your culture. It's such an extreme course of action to try and destroy a limb to feel "right" that I have a hard time not feeling sympathy for this person. The brain is a complex thing where certain damage or abnormalities can cause some crazy serious issues.

As for your blackface comment, similar has happened and been brought up on this forum before. I don't remember what the general reaction was though. I remember a thread about a young man who had procedures to look asian.

 

[Zelenogorsk]

I think I'd take a fully able body that doesn't "feel" right over a disabled one that felt like mine.

These people should probably get counseling before they go chopping anything off. Also I don't think I want people to get benefits for disabilities they knowingly inflict upon themselves.

 

[JeanGrey]

This is very offensive. As a disabled person I don't see this idiotic notion of transable and comparing it to transgender is offensive too. There is a big difference between fixing a problem you were born with, or accidentally acquired, and purposely harming yourself for what attention. Get the hell outta here. What they need is mental health therapy these people fall in the same category as a person who is a danger to themselves or others.

 

[braves01]

Woman says she is happier than ever after fulfilling lifelong wish of becoming blind

She told Barcroft TV that her fascination with blindness started when she was a child.

“By the time I was six I remember that thinking about being blind made me feel comfortable,” she said.

Shuping says that when she was a teenager, she started wearing thick black sunglasses, and even got her first cane when she was 18.

By the age of 20, Shuping says she was fluent in braille.

“I was ‘blind-simming’, which is pretending to be blind, but the idea kept coming up in my head and by the time I was 21 it was a non-stop alarm that was going off,” she told Barcroft TV.

Her need to lose her sight increased as she got older, and by 2006, she claims she found a psychologist who was willing to help her.

Shuping says the psychologist put numbing eye drops into her eyes, and then a couple of drops of drain cleaner.

“It hurt, let me tell you. My eyes were screaming and I had some drain cleaner going down my cheek burning my skin,” she said. “But all I could think was ‘I am going blind, it is going to be okay.”

The woman says it took about half a year for the damage to take full effect.

“When I woke up the following day I was joyful, until I turned on to my back and opened my eyes – I was so enraged when I saw the TV screen,” she told Barcroft TV.

One of her eyes eventually had to be removed, her other eye had glaucoma and cataracts, Barcroft TV reports.

Shuping says she originally told her family it was an accident, but they later found out the truth.

She says her mother and sister have since cut contact.

She told Barcroft TV that she has no regrets and that she hopes to help other blind people live an independent life.

“I really feel this is the way I was supposed to be born, that I should have been blind from birth,” she said. “When there’s nobody around you who feels the same way, you start to think that you’re crazy. But I don’t think I’m crazy, I just have a disorder.”

According to Barcroft TV, Shuping is hoping her story will help raise public awareness of BIID and encourage people with the condition to seek professional help.

It's a shame she had to get such primitive treatment for her condition, but it seems like she's fully capable of living independently in her new identity so good for her.