Could that be because the older players didn't like SCV that much due to the roster? Always felt old SC (but not SC5 due to Just Impact being so strong) was a game that was perfectly suited for old heads.
Being bad at fighting games is the single most frustrating thing in my gaming history
- Thread starter Dr_Boris_Goltz
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Could that be because the older players didn't like SCV that much due to the roster? Always felt old SC (but not SC5 due to Just Impact being so strong) was a game that was perfectly suited for old heads.
I remember buying Super Street Fighter IV 3D on the day the 3DS launched. It was the first time I ever bought a Street Fighter game, as I never came in touch with these kind of games, although I grew up with the Super Nintendo. I was absolutely terrible and looking at the move sets just confused me more and more. So I figured I suck at anything that isn't Smash and let it be. Now, yesterday, in a sudden, spontaneous urge to get something from that fancy arcade game sale at the EU PSN, I bought Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo HD Remix. And I even suck more at it than in SSF4. I don't know if it's the DualShock or my general incompetence but I can't even pull off my moves properly. Getting a Hadouken or a Shoryuken to work is incredibly difficult, so I get my ass whooped by the AI. And as I said, looking at the movelists does not help at all. I get really confused by this stuff really quickly.
I'm kind of sad about this. I know a lot of people who adore this genre and really can get into these kind of games, but it never caught on for me, except Smash Bros., especially Melee. But Smash is completely different in terms of movement, so there's that. I would love to play this kind of stuff, but the learning curve is so extremely high, that I get unmotivated really quickly. And that's coming from a guy who invested over 400 hours to learn CSGO properly in order to play it quite decently.
I'm kind of sad about this. I know a lot of people who adore this genre and really can get into these kind of games, but it never caught on for me, except Smash Bros., especially Melee. But Smash is completely different in terms of movement, so there's that. I would love to play this kind of stuff, but the learning curve is so extremely high, that I get unmotivated really quickly. And that's coming from a guy who invested over 400 hours to learn CSGO properly in order to play it quite decently.
DannyDanger
Member
My trick is to only memorize 3 moves
1 high low combo
1 kick him while he's down attack
1 quick jab/kick combo (to interrupt his combo)
edit: maybe memorize a Forth move. I use an inverted uppercut (downercut?) when they block the low part of my high low combo
I bet none of you can beat me when i play as Steve Fox in Tekken
1 high low combo
1 kick him while he's down attack
1 quick jab/kick combo (to interrupt his combo)
edit: maybe memorize a Forth move. I use an inverted uppercut (downercut?) when they block the low part of my high low combo
I bet none of you can beat me when i play as Steve Fox in Tekken
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Few notes:
"You will get better by finding players of equal skill." No, you won't. You only get better by getting rekt and understanding why you got rekt. You don't get this through playing casual players. Casual players aren't showing you spacing or teaching you when to tech or which way to block. They're jumping around like a scrub like you.
"How many hours do I have to put in to get better?" At least 30 a week. There's a Jwong Q&A video somewhere where he talks about how after school he'd play the cpu on MvC for 3 hours a day and how he'd be at Ctown Fair every Saturday at 10am waiting for people. Nowadays you can do this in the comfort of your own home.
"I learned all the combos and still get rekt" So speaking strictly from the most popular game, SF right now, combos are not what make this game. You have to understand what frames are. You have to understand what footsies are. You have to understand what crossups are. You have to understand frame traps, overheads, teching, fast/slow wakeup, links, feints, etc. You really need to dedicate time to reading, watching videos, watching streams, and playing playing playing playing.
Look up JWong playing MKX, or better yet go back to last week or launch week and watch him play people online. He bodies everyone with one simple technique - crossups. 99% of stream and tournament monsters have no idea how to block crossups and they lose 25% of their life every combo. It's so sad to watch. Op mentioned how he doesn't know how to guess high/lows or crossups. There is no guessing. A good player can see/read it and react accordingly. A great game to see this in is SFxT where one normal can lead into a 30% combo. Watch old streams and see how easily people can read the overheads. Or watch videos of Sako (like the recent Daigo fight at Topanga) and watch how Daigo knows how to block every mixup setup.
"You will get better by finding players of equal skill." No, you won't. You only get better by getting rekt and understanding why you got rekt. You don't get this through playing casual players. Casual players aren't showing you spacing or teaching you when to tech or which way to block. They're jumping around like a scrub like you.
"How many hours do I have to put in to get better?" At least 30 a week. There's a Jwong Q&A video somewhere where he talks about how after school he'd play the cpu on MvC for 3 hours a day and how he'd be at Ctown Fair every Saturday at 10am waiting for people. Nowadays you can do this in the comfort of your own home.
"I learned all the combos and still get rekt" So speaking strictly from the most popular game, SF right now, combos are not what make this game. You have to understand what frames are. You have to understand what footsies are. You have to understand what crossups are. You have to understand frame traps, overheads, teching, fast/slow wakeup, links, feints, etc. You really need to dedicate time to reading, watching videos, watching streams, and playing playing playing playing.
Look up JWong playing MKX, or better yet go back to last week or launch week and watch him play people online. He bodies everyone with one simple technique - crossups. 99% of stream and tournament monsters have no idea how to block crossups and they lose 25% of their life every combo. It's so sad to watch. Op mentioned how he doesn't know how to guess high/lows or crossups. There is no guessing. A good player can see/read it and react accordingly. A great game to see this in is SFxT where one normal can lead into a 30% combo. Watch old streams and see how easily people can read the overheads. Or watch videos of Sako (like the recent Daigo fight at Topanga) and watch how Daigo knows how to block every mixup setup.
Osu 16 Bit
Member
I don't know what you're talking about. There's a ton of guessing in fighting games. A lot of overhead vs. low mixups or cross up mixups are 50/50 guesses. You can read the opponent but ultimately you're just guessing.
Good players will avoid the mixup if possible or choose which way to block based on reads but everyone is guessing.
I'm an expert
Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Let me rephrase. You're not guessing at that point. You're reading. I think another good recent example is all the Smug Dudley games. Again, watch his bout where Daigo bodies him. Watch how Daigo can read the overhead multiple time. It's beyond guessing that point. You download your opponent and understand when the mixup is coming. Good players "guess" correctly more than 50%. It is not 50/50 for a good player.
Osu 16 Bit
Member
I do not play that game enough to know Dudley's mix up options and which are reactable and which are not. So I have no comment on that particular set.
You're right that a good player can get into another good player's mind and put them on tilt and prey on predictability. At the end of the day though raw guessing is happening more than those kinds of poetic examples. The more common skill is spacing the opponent out to avoid the mix up, knowing the punishes for when you guess right, and understanding the most efficient ways to defend that cover the most options.
I made hay in Injustice with Catwoman setplay. True 50/50 mixups and pure guessing. Doesn't matter if it's Daigo, he'd be guessing.
Top guys are guessing constantly, they're just winning because they minimize the times they have to guess and capitalize on mistakes better.
A probability is a probability is a probability.
No matter how much evidence, no matter how sure, you're still fundamentally guessing.
So what do you feel is stopping you?
No matter how much evidence, no matter how sure, you're still fundamentally guessing.
So what do you feel is stopping you?
Crayon
Member
I've been thinking about this and the best advice I can come up with is cultivate your relationship with losing. You shouldn't like losing but you can't hate it. You cant make excuses for it. You should never try to avoid it.
With the right mindset, you should be able to lose at street fighter all day and still have a good time. Then you can enjoyably put in the time to learn, and eventually win.
With the right mindset, you should be able to lose at street fighter all day and still have a good time. Then you can enjoyably put in the time to learn, and eventually win.
Osu 16 Bit
Member
It depends where in the tournament season it is and how new the game is.
My preparation for EVO 2014 was playing at least 6 hours a day. I would play local competition 3-5 days a week.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Usually the old players want perfectly safe risk free movement. If a SC doesn't offer that, they just go back to romanticizing sc2.
paolo11
Member
Before reading this thread, it's confidence and being smart. While reading this thread, if people who say that anyone can be competitive or good in FGC tourney as long as you practice really hard and be smart about it is telling the truth, I'll give it a shot. My ignorance tells me that good FGC players are just born with that talent.
I want to play Street Fighter 4. If I take hundreds of loses but I progress, I will get back to it. To be honest, there is a nagging feeling in my heart that I want to be a competitive SF4 FG player. It's not that combo heavy that's why I prefer that rather than UMVC (which I love that game but I suck at it).
Osu 16 Bit
Member
Well I can tell you that I do not feel I was born with super talent. Just the will to work hard.
I also don't have good execution and reaction time. My combos are notoriously criticized by other people that main my character. It doesn't matter. If I can't do a 40% combo I find a bnb I can do that does 35% and still win.
I disagree with your thoughts on fighting someone around your skill level. Yes, you need to learn all those things you listed but no one just prints of a fighting game terms glossary and checks off cross-ups, frame traps, etc. when they learn them. I imagine 99% of players fight someone around their skill level or slightly above it, lose, figure out why they lost, and fix that weakness using the knowledge gained. Getting obliterated gives you so little useful info on top of discouraging you from playing further.
I've been playing fighting games at home in the arcade and at home since the original SF2. My progression as a player was extremely slow due to lack of competition. My game didn't improve when I would thrash players who couldn't manage to do a Super Arts in SF3: NG at my local mini golf's arcade and it didn't improve when I would get wrecked by far superior players in 3S on GGPO.
What worked with SF4 is that it allowed a very large playerbase of all skill levels play each other online. There was a clear, gradual progression where you would move from beating guys struggling to chuck plasma to guys who couldn't throw tech all the way up to tournament caliber players. I learned how fighting games work 30x faster playing SF4 than any other fighting game because of the thriving online.
In fact, I think why a lot of people new to fighting games get frustrated with USF4 is that they missed the whole '09 new players boat. They didn't get to gradually improve with everyone else. They're playing the 5th (or 6th) revision of a game where the playerbase is almost entirely intermediate or expert players. The bottom of the competitive pool has fallen out.
Seraph_Nicholas
Member
It took playing almost nothing but MvC3 for close to a year for me to break through the barrier of being totally hopeless at fighting games. It helps to find one you like, but it's mostly down to wanting it enough to hammer your reflexes until you can see the moves coming from the animations/read your opponents intent. A LOT of it is rote practice.
But! If you want a head start, buy Skullgirls and play the ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE tutorial which will teach you everything I learned in that first year in extremely neat lessons.
No money for Skullgirls? http://shoryuken.com/2014/07/07/lea...ng-games-with-our-free-beginners-guide-ebook/ Here's a book about the same subjects. Reference at will. Shoryuken also has nifty wikis for several fighting games.
It's worth it, though. Not just the improvement in reflexes and general gaming abilities, but also for the mindset.
But! If you want a head start, buy Skullgirls and play the ABSOLUTELY INCREDIBLE tutorial which will teach you everything I learned in that first year in extremely neat lessons.
No money for Skullgirls? http://shoryuken.com/2014/07/07/lea...ng-games-with-our-free-beginners-guide-ebook/ Here's a book about the same subjects. Reference at will. Shoryuken also has nifty wikis for several fighting games.
It's worth it, though. Not just the improvement in reflexes and general gaming abilities, but also for the mindset.
Sounds about right.
FGs that restrict movement generally suck.
SCV is fine, just not as good as SC2 in that dept.
Of course it's true. Why wouldn't it be?
I'm sure you've succeeded at things in life. Some victories larger than others. Whatever mindset put you on course for accomplishing those tasks, apply it here. That' assuming it's something you REALLY want.
"Inborn Talent" is one of the greatest and most destructive myths of our time.
shadowstar
Member
There is definitely something to just playing a game you love until it feels natural. Eventually you get comfortable enough where you just perform the strategy or react how you want rather than thinking about how to do what you want. It's like just hitting a free throw rather than thinking about the motion while shooting it. Eventually it will click and you'll find that everything you learn transitions to every other fighter. However, we're back to probably losing a lot until you get there and people just can't get past that.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
SC2 was stupidly broken relative to step.
1) There was a built in system that let you just frame step horizontals.
2) Step G eradicated almost all risk in movement.
3) You could move while guarding breaking block strings.
4) Step G evaded throws.
SCV's movement requires a calculated read for the most part. (Less so now with 665G, and all movement being cancelable into GI, which is then cancelable into JG if the GI whiffs)
SC2, if you weren't constantly stepping, you had no reason to bother playing. There was no reason to do anything other than bait a whiff and punish from there. High level play devolved into scooting around endlessly until someone screwed up. Incredibly boring to watch.
I agree with you there. The way movement was handled in SCV was great (it was very similar to VF)
unfortunately 665G is also VF-esque. failed evades should be unbufferable into anything except crouch
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
Yeah, like VF there are still tradeoffs there. You gut whatever step you were attempting with the 665G cancel. Doesn't help much vs throws or lows. Mainly checks CE's with super good tracking.
Talent is only one part. A big component is just playing a lot. Plenty of players who place well in games like SF4,MVC3 or MKX just practiced for hour upon hour even though they were terrible when starting out. If you put in enough effort you can probably become very good in a years time, if that's what you want.
SmartWaffles
Member
You need to sink tons of time to be half decent at any competitive game so is that remotely surprising?
That's why I don't bother playing FGs at all since I can't even execute Hadokens.
That's the problem- sometimes it's hard to tell why you're losing, and you have to figure it out.
Personally, I think the one trait of teachable people when it comes to fighters is how they respond to something like that. If they just give up in-game, it's hopeless. If they try to come up with something, even if it's completely the wrong answer, or it's something that will only work on mega-gimmick, they can be taught.
Now, teachable does not mean they can end up good- as natural talent still counts for something, but they can become tourney-capable.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
When SF2 was released in arcades, nobody knew the motions at all. There was limited internet, no WWW, and the movelists trickled out months after the arcade game appeared.
So most people stumbled around with normals for that period and that's about it. Maybe some hundred hand slaps etc.
When the move lists dropped, guess what? It was hard to do the hadouken. On top of that, dragon punch might as well have not been in the game. I struggled with those for months.
In fact, I was still having issues by the time the SNES version came out. You know how I dealt with that?
I mashed like a madman. Just qcf over and over again while I hit punch buttons. Eventually I roughed out what I needed from the motion from there and got my DP's and fireballs going.
It's been like riding a bike since for the most part. (Though double fireball motions still mess me up more often than I'd like. So many "LOL! teleport" instead of Ultra with Dhalsim.)
The normals are still rather important however. Got those, and you have all the tools you're going to need to deal with any situation the game throws at you really. Supers are just trumped up normals, not the end all.
Unknown Soldier
Member
Wrong. The greatest and most destructive myth in our time is "You can be anything if you work hard." It's a blatant lie told in the modern democratic society to children the vast majority of which will never become trial lawyers, heart surgeons, professional athletes, Senators, or pop singers. In general the "American Dream" is the biggest myth in America that exists today, because the reality of upward social mobility in the US is so starkly in opposition to what the "American Dream" purports it supposedly is.
The vast majority of these children will be told they can become astronauts if they work hard enough and just how many astronauts are there in the world? The reality is that of the 7 billion people or so on Earth today, only one person is the President of the United States and no matter how hard the 1 million or so children in the US who believe they can become President work at it, only 1 will make it.
Inborn Talent is the truth, Bootstraps is the great lie.
I won't go that far. Take fighting games- I really, totally lack the raw talent- I have very bad hands. Yet, I've managed to win some locals, even scalped an EVO champ before many years ago. It does matter, but it can be overcome to a point. I may be washed up now, but I wasn't always washed up.
You go as far as your talent, work drive, and luck take you. Lack of talent is not a ticket to absolute failure.
ShinMaruku
Member
The truth is always something in the middle. Of course just working hard won't give you what you want, some of that is just luck. However you can have all the inborn talent in the world but if you lack ambition you will never realize it.
Unknown Soldier
Member
I've actually been arguing this the entire time, if you go back to my earlier posts on this I specifically said you need both talent/ability and practice/experience to succeed. Not just one or the other. Both.
Also many people mistake inborn talent for luck, and this is also a fatal mistake. People who appear to be always getting lucky and succeeding really aren't mysteriously lucky, that's the inborn talent that people delude themselves into believing doesn't exist at play.
its sad times.
You obviously don't remember who I am, Marginal. I know all about SC2, dude. The game isn't any more boring to watch than any other SC game, outside 4, at high-levels. In terms of how it played, the bolded was the game's strength, because the freedom in movement and focus on whiff punishing made the game feel a lot like a 2D fighter in terms of its pacing.
IMO, people didn't know what they had with SC2 - all they did was bitch and moan about the glitches and step G without really seeing how it affected the meta. Everyone just went and played Tekken.
Right. I said "one of the greatest myths". That was a hell of an entrance, though.
Yeah, you're right, you can work hard at something and achieve nothing. That is a truism. But as I alluded to before, the cult of self responsibility is an effective perspective to undertake when looking to achieve personal goals. If you're looking to actually explain factors of success and failure and its fluid social mechanisms - it's useless. On a psychological level, as a vehicle for a competitive attitude - it's an effective mind game. We're not looking to be a social scientist every time we're looking to actually do something or else we'd be forever paralyzed and no one would accomplish anything.
In the macrocosmic, scientific sense: they're both myths. But you can sit there and twiddle your thumbs if you'd like. I've got shit to do.
Freshmaker
I am Korean.
I do. But you're also saying SC2 had good movement. It was so powerful it nulled 90% of the movelists.
Tekken players left to play Tekken.
itzknickknac
Member
My response is to your mention in bold. Would footsies be a good neutral game against cross up?
I never played a fighting game hardcore until MvC3 came out (vanilla) and I'm still bad. Second game is TTT2. I think footsies is something I need to learn to do. I know fighting games require a lot of time investment to become good.
