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[Goldrusher]

June 13, Belgians votes for a new federal government.

We already went voting for that in 2007, but attempts to create a functional government failed twice. Earlier this year, one of the Flemish parties said "fuck this" and so now Belgians have to vote again.

But why do we struggle with our federal government ?

A little introduction...

Because Belgium isn't what you (probably) think it is...

BELGIUM TODAY

The Kingdom of Belgium is a small country located in the middle of Western Europe. It shares borders with The Netherlands (north), Germany (east), Luxembourg (south-east) and France (south). In the west, across the English channel, is the United Kingdom.

To Americans, it's comparable in size to Maryland. There live 10.8 million people.

It's known as the land of chocolate, waffles, beer, fries, comic books, diamonds, the saxophone and balls of steel.

But actually, Belgium consists of two very different "sub-nations"... defined by a clear border and each with their own people, lifestyle, language, culture, flag, anthem, media, etc.
And most importantly, their own government and their own political parties.

FLANDERS

- the north
- population of 6.1 million
- people speak Dutch

WALLONIA

- the south
- population of 3.4 million
- people speak French

However, it is not a confederacy.

Finance, social security, justice, defense and foreign affairs are still handled on a federal (Belgian) level.



HISTORY OF BELGIUM

Modern Flanders dates back to the 8th century.

It has always been a rich and powerful region, and from the 15th to the 18th century, it was part of The Netherlands (Belgica), with whom it conquered the world.


The Eighty Year's War (1566-1648) against the Spanish lead to the creation of the Spanish Netherlands (Belgium of today) and the Dutch Republic (Netherlands of today).

Under the Treaty of Utrecht (1713), following the War of the Spanish Succession (1701-1713), what was left of the Spanish Netherlands was ceded to Austria and thus became known as the Austrian Netherlands.


Then came Napoleon, who conquered Europe and annexed the entire Netherlands by 1794.

Napoleon was defeated in the legendary Battle of Waterloo (1815), which lead to the reunification of both Netherlands, with the House of Orange-Nassau ruling.


Unhappy with that, the many French inhabitants (of basically today's Wallonia) revolted and in 1830, Belgian separatists declared the independence of Belgium from the Netherlands. The Flemish provinces were subordinated by a Belgian army consisting mainly of volunteers from Wallonia.

This Belgian Revolution ultimately led to the creation of the present day Kingdom of Belgium.

Unfortunately for the Flemish, the government, politics, law, etc. were now all French and the Belgian establishment deemed it unnecessary to invest in Flanders.

A long article here. Summary:

Pro-Flemish activities and organizations were set up and by the 1850s, Flanders had a newspaper, and by the 1860s a political party.

In 1898, the Dutch language was allowed in Belgian juridical matters.

By the 1930s, Dutch was recognized for the first time as the sole language of Flanders.

During World War II, The Third Reich enacted laws to protect and encourage the Dutch language in Belgium.

In 1962, the Belgian provinces were divided between a Flemish-speaking community and a French-speaking community.

In 1980, separate governments were created for Flanders and Wallonia.

In 1995, the province of Brabant, surrounding Brussels, was split into a Flemish Brabant and a Walloon Brabant.


Today, only the city of Brussels and a handful towns around it, are disputed territory.

THE FLEMISH DEMANDS

1. History, language, culture.

2. Economy. Flanders always has been, and still is very rich. It has no public debt and is the richest region in the entire world.
The federal government of Belgium on the other hand has managed to accumulate the 3rd highest public debt in Europe.

And Flanders pays ~10 billion euro per year to Wallonia in "life support", which does very little to generate its own income (a good example is speed cameras, Flanders has over 1000, Wallonia less than 50).

3. Politics. Every single political issue in Belgium, on a federal level, results in a gray solution. Even though in most cases Flanders wants black and Wallonia wants white.

4. Less is more. Belgium currently has no less than six governments, which is absurd for such a small country and very costly.

- Belgium (federal)
- Flanders
- Wallonia
- Brussels
- the French Community (has power in Brussels)
- the German-speaking Community

THE WALLOON DEMANDS

1. Brussels.

Brussels is located in Flanders, is the capital of Flanders and has through history always been a Flemish city... So the Flemish parties think the idea is absurd. However, the majority of the population today speaks French.

The minimum demand of the Walloon parties is more Flemish territory so that Wallonia at least shares a border with Brussels.

IF BELGIUM SPLITS

    In the scenario of a true split, there are a few scenarios...

Flanders:

a) fully independent Flanders (with or without Brussels)

Brussels:

a) city in Flanders
b) independent city-state, governed by the European Union

Wallonia

a) fully independent
b) joins France
c) some provinces join France, others Luxembourg
d) some provinces independent, some join Luxembourg and/or France

Even though we vote for the federal government, Flanders and Wallonia vote for different parties. A person living in Wallonia cannot vote for a Flemish party and vice versa, with the exception of those living in Brussels.


WHAT WE VOTE FOR ?

    You'll have to vote twice. Once for the Chamber, once for the Senate.
    You can't do anything wrong by voting for the the same party for both.

Chamber:
- control of the Federal Government
- control of the the budget and the State accounts

Senate:
- sole powers to settle conflicts of interest that may arise between the Federal Parliament and the Parliaments of the Communities and the Regions

both:
- approval of laws
- ratification of international conventions
- revision of the Constitution
- the introduction of candidates for the Court of Arbitration, the Court of Cassation and the Council of State (the Supreme Administrative Court)


For everything else, it is the Chamber that has the final say. The Senate is a forum for reflection and is therefore only expected to pronounce on draft laws or proposals if it considers it necessary. The Senate may also take the initiative in putting forward a proposal for a law.

WHO TO VOTE FOR ?

    (percentages the latest estimates)

In Flanders...


26% N-VA | Nieuw-Vlaamse Alliantie ("New-Flemish Alliance")
> right
> strongly in favor of an independent Flanders

16% CD&V | Christen-Democratisch en Vlaams ("Christian-Democratic and Flemish")
> democrats
> moderately in favor of a more autonomous Flanders
> wants a minimum career length instead of a minimum retirement age

16% SP.A | Sociale Partij Anders ("Socialist Party Different")
> socialists
> wants higher pensions

13% Open VLD | Open Vlaams Liberalen en Democraten ("Flemish Liberals and Democrats")
> liberal-democrats
> wants to abolish the senate

15% Vlaams Belang ("Flemish Interest")
> right
> strongly in favor of an independent Flanders

7% Groen! ("Green")
> left
> in favor of a capital gains tax

4% Lijst Dedecker ("List Dedecker")
> center-right, libertarian
> strongly in favor of a more autonomous Flanders

In Wallonia...


30% PS | Parti Socialiste ("Socialist Party")
> socialists
> not in favor of a split, but thinks it's inevitable and would then be in favor of an independent Wallonia

20% MR | Mouvement Réformateur ("Reform Movement")
> right, liberal
>

18% Ecolo("Green")
> left
>

16% CDH | Centre démocrate humaniste ("Humanist democratic center")
> center-right
> strongly pro-Belgium

The people in the German-speaking Community (a strip of territory we got from Germany after WWI) have a few unique parties, but they all work together with their Walloon equivalent.

In Brussels (city) and a handful towns around it, people can vote for all parties.

There we go. Feel free to post corrections or suggestions.

 

[Tieno]

Pretty good summary! I'll use it as a reference whenever I have to explain the belgium problem to foreign friends.

 

[Dilly]

You forgot Brussel Halle Vilvoorde

Good summary, I wonder how long it's going to take before a new government is formed.

 

[Kaeru]

Is there a party resembling Vlaams Blook in this years election?

 

[Souldriver]

Is there a party resembling Vlaams Blook in this years election?

Vlaams Blok has become Vlaams Belang when they got a judicial conviction for racism.


So: Vlaams Belang.

 

[Mr. Sam]

Wouldn't a better translation for Mouvement Réformateur be "Movement for Reform"?

 

[Kabouter]

Read in the Dutch media that the Flemish Green Party thinks it can get 30 billion euro extra just from fighting tax fraud, and that the PS proposes 90+ new things that cost money whilst proposing nothing to save money. Even though Belgium has a mountain of debt and a high deficit. Is this true, or just bullshit by the Dutch media?

 

[Souldriver]

Read in the Dutch media that the Flemish Green Party thinks it can get 30 billion euro extra just from fighting tax fraud, and that the PS proposes 90+ new things that cost money whilst proposing nothing to save money. Even though Belgium has a mountain of debt and a high deficit. Is this true, or just bullshit by the Dutch media?

In 2009 belandde België op de grijze OESO-lijst met fscale paradijzen. Zowel professor Schneider als Dulbea
becijferden dat onze schatkist zowat 30 miljard euro aan inkomsten misloopt door massale fraude. Alleen al het
terugdringen van de fscale fraude tot het gemiddelde, zou in België goed zijn voor een imposante 10 miljard euro
extra inkomsten. Op initiatief van de Ecolo-Groen!-fractie kwam er een ‘Parlementaire commissie Fiscale Fraude’,
die 108 concrete voorstellen deed voor de strijd tegen fscale fraude. Deze aanbevelingen wachten nog steeds
op uitvoering.

Basically Groen! says the total amount of tax money the Belgian government can't take in because of fiscal fraud is 30 billion euros. They don't claim to be able to get those 30 billion, because no country is fraud free. They do say that a tighter control and better regulation could bring the losses down with 10 billion to the European average.





About the PS thing. I have no idea. It is true that the general observation is that they are trying to lure voters with free money and don't wanna talk about budget cuts. But if it's specifically 90+ initiatives and no cuts at all, I don't know. I just hope to god they realize their (and therefore our) situation is completely fucked up, and that cuts will have to be made.

 

[Furoba]

Flanders doesn't have any public debt because the federal level takes on all the debt of the regions (and even pension payments of civil servants). Split Belgium and Flanders would become one of the most indebted countries of Europe. Worse even, Flanders' credit rating would be lower than that of Belgium now, and would likely worsen debt problems.

Pretty important to note is that there isn't a Flemish or Walloon front with unified demands. All parties have different views, and depending on the election results this won't make negotiations any easier.

I personally highly doub Belgium will break up any time soon though, proponents are still a miniority and there's just too many opinions in between.
I agree the system has to be changed, but not by politicians who can't even clearly explain what a confederacy is... One of the biggest changes needed is within the political class IMO, but a more efficient, responsible and transparant government is much needed also.

Flanders being attached to The Netherlands, or Wallonia to France or Luxembourg is completely unrealistic.

 

[Cronox]

Belgium is already so small though... Splitting it up further seems silly. But at least this thread presents better arguments than the Belgians I've talked to.

 

[Kabouter]

Flanders being attached to The Netherlands, or Wallonia to France or Luxembourg is completely unrealistic.

Why is Wallonia being annexed by France completely unrealistic? And obviously Flanders should be an independent state.

 

[Souldriver]

Flanders doesn't have any public debt because the federal level takes on all the debt of the regions (and even pension payments of civil servants). Split Belgium and Flanders would become one of the most indebted countries of Europe. Worse even, Flanders' credit rating would be lower than that of Belgium now, and would likely worsen debt problems.

Pretty important to note is that there isn't a Flemish or Walloon front with unified demands. All parties have different views, and depending on the election results this won't make negotiations any easier.

I personally highly doub Belgium will break up any time soon though, proponents are still a miniority and there's just too many opinions in between.
I agree the system has to be changed, but not by politicians who can't even clearly explain what a confederacy is... One of the biggest changes needed is within the political class IMO, but a more efficient and transparent government is much needed also.

Flanders being attached to The Netherlands, or Wallonia to France or Luxembourg is completely unrealistic.

Agreed. On all accounts.



There has to be a reorganization of the country's structures, because right now the way things are financed is ridiculous.

The federal government take in all taxes, and then hands it out to the communities. The communities swim (relatively) in the money, while the Federal level is bankrupt. And yet, the communities don't have all that many costly responsibilities, while the Federal level still has to pay for social security and the pensions. That's just totally unrealistic.

And this totally plays in the cards of the separatists. "Oh look, the federal level is such a mess. They can't even clear their check book! We on the other hand balance our budget every year! *fist pump*" That's like punishing your daughter because you sent her away with 10 euros to buy a new car and she came back empty handed, while you praise your son because you sent him away with 1000 euros to get a loaf of bread and he came back with a delicious pie too.

This has to change. Either you give the communities more responsibilities to go along with the money, or you restructure the financing laws so that the federal government has financial backing to fulfill its duties. I'm pragmatic enough to agree with either one of those options: re-federalize Belgium, or make it a confederation. Either way, the fairytale story that the separatists now can claim to be true, would end pretty quickly in either scenarios: Flanders or Wallonia would suddenly have a lot more troubles to balance their budget.

 

[Kaeru]

Vlaams Blok has become Vlaams Belang when they got a judicial conviction for racism.


So: Vlaams Belang.

Exactly what was considered racist?

 

[Desiato]

It's all such a mess. I'll give a blank vote tomorrow. It's not that I don't care, it's that I don't believe any party will be able to fix my country. I've been following the debates and everything, but they're all so vague about what they want to do with Belgium. For example, some times NVA say they want a confederacy, and other times they want to split Belgium entirely it seems.

The parties that want to split Belgium make it seem like the best solution, but as Furoba said, I'm not too sure about that.

And then on the other hand, the parties that want to keep Belgium as it is rarely give any compelling arguments to do so. They seem to think emphasizing the symbolical value of "Belgium" is enough to convince the people. I'd rather hear some more facts.

I just can't wrap my head around it all. I used to vote for Open VLD, but I'm pissed at them for ruining the BHV talks, just when it seemed there was finally a solution in sight.

 

[E-phonk]

Exactly what was considered racist?

They are quite open about their racism, although a bit less nowadays since the conviction.

A lot of the party founders have links or had sympathy with german collaborators in WWII and some of them are holocast deniers. Some have been filmed/photographed while "sieg heiling" or show up at supreme white/KKK/nazi meetings.

 

[E-phonk]

I'm left leaning, and will vote for Frank Vandenbroucke (sp.a).

I think the socialist party is in kind of a mess right now, mostly because of Gennez and the people surrounding her. I really hope Frank Vandenbroucke will have a huge amount of votes behind him, because to me he is one of the more intelligent politicians we currently have.

I also agree with Souldriver, I don't care how they fix it, although I have a slight preference for a more confederate system, just because it could work more effecient.

 

[Dascu]

I'm of the opinion that a separation would result in much more problems than it would solve. I'm very annoyed that so many of the big parties, at least on Flemish side, advocate independence over reform. It's not a good mindset to bring to the negotiation tables after the elections. That's why I'm inclined to vote more moderate or left (read: CD&V or even SP.A) because even if they're not inclined to a big structural reform, at least they'd get some kind of compromise done instead of NVA or possibly OpenVLD wasting time bickering about independence with Wallonian parties and not getting anything done at all.

Signs point to NVA and OpenVLD winning though. Hopefully, in case they do, they won't be stubborn. Fix up the economy first and tie state reform to financial reform in so far that it is necessary. Do not waste anymore time with this Brussel-Halle-Vilvoorde nonsense. Compromises are not a taboo if they get things done.

Oh, and I'm so pleased that LDD looks like a sinking ship. :lol

Exactly what was considered racist?

The party itself was not sentenced (it's even impossible in Belgium law to summon a political party to court), but several of its supporting organizations were sentenced on racist and discriminatory practices. In particular for printing slanderous and racist leaflets, I think. Either way, the party changed its name (but not its politics).

I just can't wrap my head around it all. I used to vote for Open VLD, but I'm pissed at them for ruining the BHV talks, just when it seemed there was finally a solution in sight.

Same here. OpenVLD is a competent party on other fronts, but Alexander Decroo's attack on the BHV dossier annoyed me quite a bit.

I think the socialist party is in kind of a mess right now, mostly because of Gennez and the people surrounding her. I really hope Frank Vandenbroucke will have a huge amount of votes behind him, because to me he is one of the more intelligent politicians we currently have.

I'm glad to see Vande Lanotte back in action. He's a great professor as well. His human rights classes at Ghent University are fantastic.

 

[Xyphie]

Best of luck to your liberal parties.

 

[Furoba]

Why is Wallonia being annexed by France completely unrealistic? And obviously Flanders should be an independent state.

Because French speaking isn't equal to being French?

And why would it be obvious that Flanders should be independent? Why can't it be a region like it is now?
Outside of the arguments of 'credit transfers' and some presumed 'Flemish identity' there's little else going for it tbh.

 

[alba]

I fear that even after this, nothing is going to change and we'll get stuck in a dead end yet again

 

[Desiato]

Oh, and is it me, or has Rik Torfs turned into a complete asshole ever since he entered politics?

 

[confuziz]

Can someone explain to me, why it is more likely for Wallonia to join france, than for Flanders to join the dutch?

 

[2San]

I always felt like Flanders tried a lot more to be a unity. Afaik the Flanders know Flemish and French. While the vast majority Wallonians only know French.

 

[E-phonk]

Can someone explain to me, why it is more likely for Wallonia to join france, than for Flanders to join the dutch?

Most of the political parties that stand for a strong Flanders, aim for independence. It would be silly to end an independence declaration by joining the Netherlands.

Wallonia has been more dependent in the last 30-40 years. In this case dependence on Belgium. That's why some say it might try to join France if Flanders would declare independence.

But I don't really think the country will split. An evolution to an confederal model or big structural reforms are a lot more likely, especially because the political landscape is so fractured. We also have a strong political history of compromising.

 

[Prez]

It's all such a mess. I'll give a blank vote tomorrow.

Don't do that, your vote will go to the most popular party. Just vote for an insignificant party like Groen!

 

[Dilly]

Don't do that, your vote will go to the most popular party. Just vote for an insignificant party like Groen!

I don't know why people still think that.

Voting blanco doesn't give a vote to the biggest party.

 

[Furoba]

I don't know why people still think that.

Voting blanco doesn't give a vote to the biggest party.

It does give more weight to real votes, while you should be giving a counterweight to the votes you don't agree with.

And compromising, how ugly it might seem to some, is likely to be the only way forward, if some common ground can be found at least.
Compromising is actually an advantageous quality on the European level. If you manage to get a compromise in Belgium, harmonising European countries big and small is easy. :lol

 

[Tieno]

I'm pretty much for a confederal belgium. Flaanders and Walloon are different region and people, different language, we want different things, have different problems and want different solutions. We hamper each other's development because we can't agree on fundamental issues. We need simpler system that demands less compromise across language borders, otherwise we'll keep wasting money on inefficiënt systems. The regions need more responsibilities to go along with the shitloads of money they get. (although flaanders has shitload of money, I wonder if this is the same for wallonie and if not, why?)

I'll be voting NVA, not because I absolutely want to separate (though I wouldn't mind it) but because they will stray the least from this issue of more independent flaanders once they're sitting at the table with other parties. Bart De Wever is also a pretty smart, funny and atypical politician, a historian not a lawyer. We have way too many lawyers in politics, this inbreeding is dangerous when it comes to making clear and healthy laws.

I hope I can vote for actual important issues next elections but this needs to be 'resolved' before we can actually start to 'govern' efficiently.

For European elections I'll keep voting Groen! (Green) because their ideas are better brought to fruition at that level.

 

[Tieno]

Just came back from voting. Very smooth, no lines, in and out. Whole process took 20minutes (picking up grandma, going to the bureau by car, handing in my ID, voting on the computer, waiting for grandma and then going back)
Very smooth, but it's always been very smooth and efficient experience at my municipality

 

[Dascu]

Voted CD&V, something I hadn't contemplated until recently. Maybe it's because it was my birthday 2 weeks ago and I'm starting to feel like an old person.

 

[Furoba]

Voted for Groen! for their coherency and vision in their green / social policy concerning economy, climate, human rights and the environment, their constructive approach to negotiations, and because they have capable people that can make a difference in policy. Voted on women on both accounts also.

Smooth voting at the polling stations here, the queues at the local bakeries were longer in comparison. :lol

 

[Damian]

Excellent thread! Very good summary of Belgian politics!

We had no problems here either (region of Ghent). Had to wait in line for about 2 minutes!
Now we wait for the results...

PS: Didn't know there were some many Belgians on this board! High five, guys!

 

[Dilly]

Voted for VLD in Senaat and NVA in Kamer.

 

[E-phonk]

I voted for frank vandenbroucke like I said before. Everything went smooth here also. Only 15 minutes or so.

Now watching tv all day - I love the appleconference-election day-E3 combination. Excitement all the way!

 

[Turfster]

I was the first at around 9 am this morning.
The poor guys that had to sit there had been sitting there for over an hour without anyone coming to vote.

 

[alba]

Same, very smooth and fast took 10 mins max

 

[Walshicus]

As an outsider sitting 200km from Belgium I'm sure there's a lot we don't see... but what's the point in keeping such a divided state locked in a tight political union when there's a perfectly functioning layer of government above Belgium [the EU] which would serve as a better mechanism for the countries of Flanders and Wallonia to cooperate in? Would not both Flanders and Wallonia be better off expending their political energies on things like tackling the recession and creating jobs?

 

[Vitten]

I still have to go.. got 50 minutes left :lol .
Not sure if I even want to cos I couldn't give a flying fuck. I know the voting is 'compulsary' ( which is absolutely ridiculous this day and age ) but apparently they let you off the hook if you don't go.

 

[Tieno]

I'm left leaning, and will vote for Frank Vandenbroucke (sp.a).

I think the socialist party is in kind of a mess right now, mostly because of Gennez and the people surrounding her. I really hope Frank Vandenbroucke will have a huge amount of votes behind him, because to me he is one of the more intelligent politicians we currently have.

I also agree with Souldriver, I don't care how they fix it, although I have a slight preference for a more confederate system, just because it could work more effecient.

I know someone who has worked with Frank VDB on a high level and says that while he's an intelligent guy, he's absolutely ruthless and doesn't shy away from using his power to intimidate people and steal the fruits of other people's labor.

That said, I'll never vote socialist here, too many opportunities to freeride the system already.

 

[Souldriver]

As an outsider sitting 200km from Belgium I'm sure there's a lot we don't see... but what's the point in keeping such a divided state locked in a tight political union when there's a perfectly functioning layer of government above Belgium [the EU] which would serve as a better mechanism for the countries of Flanders and Wallonia to cooperate in? Would not both Flanders and Wallonia be better off expending their political energies on things like tackling the recession and creating jobs?

While this attitude is very understandable and logical, you should heed from taking this to the extreme, because then you fall into rational insanity. Working together with people and structures that are different from you(rs), can be just as much an advantage as it is a disadvantage. It leads to debate, compromise, understanding, ability to take advantage of economies of scale and scope, and -in case of no deadlock- better governing in general.

The fact of the matter is that once you start arbitrarily dividing people and geography into groups, the divide also becomes a reality. The divide makes it easier to pinpoint difference of opinions, and can lead to more radical positioning solely based on the fact that you can/should take the opposition stand of the other. So dividing Belgium into Flanders and Wallonia, would get rid of this divide, but it wouldn't take more than a few days before the divides between the provinces of Flanders itself become more profound.

So I am skeptical towards "if we differ, we split" mentality. On the other hand I'm not going to be completely delusional and deny that the divide between the Flemish and Walloons is big and problematic. There has to be a restructuring of the way we govern and work together. And I'm very happy that a structure like the EU spans over the Belgian level, so that getting rid of one level of government doesn't mean complete isolation and a slide into irrelevance. But the EU by itself is a macro-version of Belgium. There too you have to work together with different opinions. If you incorporate the differ/split mentality on a national level, I'm afraid it automatically shines through on the EU level as well.


So all in all, I'm very hesitant to elevate the differ/split idea into a dogma, a rule to live by. But I'm also realistic enough to realize that years of deadlock because of the difference, should lead to a serious talk on whether and/or on what working together at all is still advantageous.

 

[Dascu]

While this attitude is very understandable and logical, you should heed from taking this to the extreme, because then you fall into rational insanity. Working together with people and structures that are different from you(rs), can be just as much an advantage as it is a disadvantage. It leads to debate, compromise, understanding, ability to take advantage of economies of scale and scope, and -in case of no deadlock- better governing in general.

The fact of the matter is that once you start arbitrarily dividing people and geography into groups, the divide also becomes a reality. The divide makes it easier to pinpoint difference of opinions, and can lead to more radical positioning solely based on the fact that you can/should take the opposition stand of the other. So dividing Belgium into Flanders and Wallonia, would get rid of this divide, but it wouldn't take more than a few days before the divides between the provinces of Flanders itself become more profound.

So I am skeptical towards "if we differ, we split" mentality. On the other hand I'm not going to be completely delusional and deny that the divide between the Flemish and Walloons is big and problematic. There has to be a restructuring of the way we govern and work together. And I'm very happy that a structure like the EU spans over the Belgian level, so that getting rid of one level of government doesn't mean complete isolation and a slide into irrelevance. But the EU by itself is a macro-version of Belgium. There too you have to work together with different opinions. If you incorporate the differ/split mentality on a national level, I'm afraid it automatically shines through on the EU level as well.


So all in all, I'm very hesitant to elevate the differ/split idea into a dogma, a rule to live by. But I'm also realistic enough to realize that years of deadlock because of the difference, should lead to a serious talk on whether and/or on what working together at all is still advantageous.

I completely agree on all fronts. First Flanders, what then? Antwerp? Brabant? Constantly splitting up for the sake of "efficiency" is dangerous because it's not so sure that it will lead to actual progress, and also because it's against the concept of solidarity that has shaped modern Europe. I don't want to go back to a time of nationalistic and Darwinistic conflict between regions.

 

[Scipius]

But the EU by itself is a macro-version of Belgium. There too you have to work together with different opinions. If you incorporate the differ/split mentality on a national level, I'm afraid it automatically shines through on the EU level as well.

The difference is the supranational element of the EU is far less complex than the federal level that still exists in what was once a unified state. The process is reversed; whereas the EU consists of sovereign partners mutually agreeing what they should share, Belgium consists of two spouses involved in a noisy row that could lead to a messy divorce.

 

[Dascu]

De VRT brengt een eerste uitslag. In Heist-op-den-Berg is één stembureau geteld. NVA behaalt 32.3%.

As expected, I guess. NVA-OpenVLD coalition seems inevitable, though I don't know if they'll have enough seats for a majority. Maybe they'll need the CD&V?

Also, does anyone know what the likely winners in Wallonia are?

 

[Raiden]

I still have to go.. got 50 minutes left :lol .
Not sure if I even want to cos I couldn't give a flying fuck. I know the voting is 'compulsary' ( which is absolutely ridiculous this day and age ) but apparently they let you off the hook if you don't go.

Love this attittude, i know a couple of people who dont care about voting, and fill in blanco, but they are always the first to complain if something goes wrong.

Not saying you're like that though ...

 

[Tieno]

We shouldn't split because we differ, if we differ too much to work something out together...why keep the status quo. Something has to change. Why were we grouped together in the first place? We don't share the same language, our language are two different families even.


Slippery slope argument goes past the fact that states are and never will be a fixed entity. They change composition, what worked in 1831 doesn't necessarily work now. A split/change doesn't prevent solidarity between countries. There's solidarity between countries in the EU, hell between BeNeLux atm too.

But there's no need for a split now, I'm still willing to see whether we can work together in a confederate state, where there's more responsibility at the regional level, not just handing out money flowing from the federal level.

 

[Dascu]

Certainly. A restructuring is necessary, no denying that.

 

[Furoba]

I completely agree on all fronts. First Flanders, what then? Antwerp? Brabant? Constantly splitting up for the sake of "efficiency" is dangerous because it's not so sure that it will lead to actual progress, and also because it's against the concept of solidarity that has shaped modern Europe. I don't want to go back to a time of nationalistic and Darwinistic conflict between regions.

Exactly, add to this the fact that many (but certainly not all) nationalist flemings in favor of a divide seem to be in favor of a Flemish identity revolving around 'Blut und Boden', which would go in against our multicultural reality and open society.

I like to think our diversity, and even differences can be one of our greatest advantages. It shouldn't be all negative.

 

[Souldriver]

The difference is the supranational element of the EU is far less complex than the federal level that still exists in what was once a unified state. The process is reversed; whereas the EU consists of sovereign partners mutually agreeing what they should share, Belgium consists of two spouses involved in a noisy row that could lead to a messy divorce.

True, but still, you could apply the same situation on the European level. There aren't any clear rules on how to secede from the Union and there are many competences that have been transferred to the EU level through the decades. So in a way the member states are also "forced" to work together. And if they really say "fuck this shit" they could leave the Union, but it would cause many problems. It's not different from Flanders saying "fuck this shit". A unilateral secession is possible, but it would cause problems. Also, if you follow European politics you can see how there has been complete deadlock on that level for 5 years, which is even longer than on the Belgian level.

And even more so than on the Belgian level, I shudder at the idea of what happens now in Belgium happening on the European level. If they current mentality in our country were to be omnipresent in Europe, it would only be a matter of time before what we have built up the last 50 years gradually gets broken down again. We'd end up with a European Parliament dominated by the non-inscrits, the "Europe of Freedom and Democracy", "European Conservatives and Reformists" and "European Free Alliance" fractions. I mean a bunch of people who rather point out the people who they don't want to work with instead of trying to work together, or regional fraction wanting a "Europe of Regions" that's mainly focusing on intergovernmental instead of supranational co-operation.

Off course, everyone is entitled to their opinion, but that sure as hell is not what I'm hoping for.

 

[Furoba]

As expected, I guess. NVA-OpenVLD coalition seems inevitable, though I don't know if they'll have enough seats for a majority. Maybe they'll need the CD&V?

Also, does anyone know what the likely winners in Wallonia are?

Looks like the general trend will be that OpenVLD, Vlaams Belang and LDD lost their votes to NVA, but I wouldn't rule out a PS/SPA and CD&V coalition out just yet.

 

[Dascu]

Looks like the general trend will be that OpenVLD, Vlaams Belang and LDD lost their votes to NVA, but I wouldn't rule out a PS/SPA and CD&V coalition out just yet.

Yeah, seems OpenVLD is doing worse than I had expected. NVA deserves to be part of the government in the sense that they'll be the clear winner, but a NVA-CD&V-SP.A coalition on the other hand doesn't look like it would work well.