In Bioshock 1 you encountered ghosts in a few places, but they were actually you experiencing the memories of other people. Extracting the Adam from bodies would occasionally result in the memories of the corpse imprinting itself in the Adam. As you spliced, you could experience them for yourself.
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BioShock Infinite: Burial at Sea - Episode Two - Spoiler OT
- Thread starter ElzarTheBam
- Start date
In Bioshock 1 you encountered ghosts in a few places, but they were actually you experiencing the memories of other people. Extracting the Adam from bodies would occasionally result in the memories of the corpse imprinting itself in the Adam. As you spliced, you could experience them for yourself.
I actually played and beat Bio 2 over the last couple of days (apparently started it in 2011 but going by the achievements I pretty much stopped at the start for one reason or another)
It's pretty focused, and the combat fits nicely between Bio1 and Infinite. The story is pretty damn good too, but at the same time, it lacks the ambition that both Irrational games exude, and the way you explore Rapture feels a bit more gamey and less organic than it did in BIoshock 1 or Burial at Sea.. Would definitely recommend playing it either way as it's still really, really good overall. Oh, and BaS definitely makes no mention of anything that is in Bioshock 2 though, but at the same time, I couldn't pick out anything that negated it either...
Gonna play through Minerva's Den later this week, and ill have played all the Bioshock stuff finally.
Trent Strong
Banned
This is an stealth game. :/ Oh well, got both DLC episodes for 5 bucks, so that's not too bad.
What Salamando said, basically. The "ghosts" in Rapture are essentially left over memories in ADAM.
As for Comstock, I don't think we ever got a real idea of what she was. They suggested that she was sort of half-brought back by siphoning Elizabeth's powers, but I think it was more magic hand-waving than anything else.
LordOfChaos
Member
Holy shit, just finished. Best DLC I've played in a while. Much better than 1, which I thought was pretty good too. The gameplay was better than the main game, more focused, more sneaking rather than just mowing down hoards. The story was amazing, blended together 1 and Infinite perfectly imo, and validated quite a few fan theories. When it shows Elizabeth approaching the Bioshock 1 character in the plane at the end, I actually yelled out "holy shit!".
When it faded to black and showed "Irrational Games", my heart cried a little. Very good way to go.
When it faded to black and showed "Irrational Games", my heart cried a little. Very good way to go.
LordOfChaos
Member
You can just run around with a shotgun if you want. There's no penalty for not using stealth.
Miles Quaritch
Member
Pretty sure they aren't referenced again, but I did miss a few audio logs, so perhaps they are? I thought it was interesting that the sister acknowledged her brother had needs and unfulfilled, I thought they were going to throw a swerve ball in there...
Anyway, I was a little underwhelmed with the ending. I loved the nods to BS1 and I quite liked seeing how Atlas got the activation phrase as well seeing Suchong get drilled in real time,, but overall, I didn't particularly like how it ended for Elizabeth.
I guess there was no other way for her story to end, but a wrench to the head felt so unsatisfying. Still, I loved the journey to that point and feel this was a good send off for Bioshock and a great way to tie the games together.
Killing Elizabeth, as a concept, is fine.
Killing her like that is kind of irresponsible.
I dunno if you can be "irresponsible" with a fictional character. You can be far less than satisfying from a story and character standpoint, however.
If I was Elizabeth and I knew what was going to happen to me once I delivered it, I don't think that I would go through with it.
Besides, it's immensely un satisfying that they seem to be abusing quantum mechanics to allow for an infinite number of Elizabeth's in infinitely many multiverses. Not good storytelling IMO.
Besides, it's immensely un satisfying that they seem to be abusing quantum mechanics to allow for an infinite number of Elizabeth's in infinitely many multiverses. Not good storytelling IMO.
Just played through both episodes. Loved it but my brain is fried. I thought I had a pretty good grasp on the whole multi-verse thing at the end of infinite but the end of EP1 started twisting my brain in new ways I wasn't prepared for and the end of EP2 seems like it flew by without too much explanation (or at least it seemed that way).
Things I liked:
- Stealth was fun. A nice change of pace from the other bioshock games.
- Amazing visuals. I know I'll never get it but I want the original bioshock to be playable with all of Infinite's visual bells and whistles. The art direction in this once again, blew me away.
- Really stellar voice acting
That paris scene... wow! It went from a Disney movie to a nightmare in a heartbeat.
Things I didn't like:
- Never ending enemies. Hang around in an area exploring too long and more splicers pour into the area.
- Not as much cool plasmids to work with. Invisibility was pretty much all I used with the exception of possessing the big daddy a few times to help deal with enemies.
- Feels bad man ending. Wasn't expecting it to end that way but I understand (I think) why.
- This
Also, I really liked the lobotomy scene. I was squirming in my damn chair the whole time. The way the screen started changing colors and stuff was pretty nuts. And maybe I'm reading too much into it but it seems like it was in that scene where Elizabeth sort of snapped in terms of not being afraid of Atlas anymore. It seems like he crossed the line with her when he brought in the little girl and had the pick/hammer on her.
2 other questions for you guys.
What was the deal with the little baby elizabeth (I assume?) that apparently got beheadded by a tear?
Also, at the end, the bit with Elizabeth on the plane in the bathroom, how was she there if she died in Rapture? Or was that a different elizabeth? I though Atlas said something at the end about getting her on the plane? I'm just assuming it was a different Elizabeth and she started bleeding once the Elizabeth in Rapture got smacked with the wrench?
Things I liked:
- Stealth was fun. A nice change of pace from the other bioshock games.
- Amazing visuals. I know I'll never get it but I want the original bioshock to be playable with all of Infinite's visual bells and whistles. The art direction in this once again, blew me away.
- Really stellar voice acting
That paris scene... wow! It went from a Disney movie to a nightmare in a heartbeat.
Things I didn't like:
- Never ending enemies. Hang around in an area exploring too long and more splicers pour into the area.
- Not as much cool plasmids to work with. Invisibility was pretty much all I used with the exception of possessing the big daddy a few times to help deal with enemies.
- Feels bad man ending. Wasn't expecting it to end that way but I understand (I think) why.
- This
Also, I really liked the lobotomy scene. I was squirming in my damn chair the whole time. The way the screen started changing colors and stuff was pretty nuts. And maybe I'm reading too much into it but it seems like it was in that scene where Elizabeth sort of snapped in terms of not being afraid of Atlas anymore. It seems like he crossed the line with her when he brought in the little girl and had the pick/hammer on her.
2 other questions for you guys.
What was the deal with the little baby elizabeth (I assume?) that apparently got beheadded by a tear?
Also, at the end, the bit with Elizabeth on the plane in the bathroom, how was she there if she died in Rapture? Or was that a different elizabeth? I though Atlas said something at the end about getting her on the plane? I'm just assuming it was a different Elizabeth and she started bleeding once the Elizabeth in Rapture got smacked with the wrench?
That plane scene was just her seeing through one of the doors into the future. She wasn't actually there. She still had remnants of her powers left, represented as Booker.
That baby Liz was the Anna that the Booker/Comstock in episode 1 tried to kidnap. Instead of cutting off the pinky, the tear beheaded her. This causes Comstock so much grief that he decides to escape his past by running away to Rapture. Liz finds out and goes to kill him because she wants him to pay for what he did.
That baby Liz was the Anna that the Booker/Comstock in episode 1 tried to kidnap. Instead of cutting off the pinky, the tear beheaded her. This causes Comstock so much grief that he decides to escape his past by running away to Rapture. Liz finds out and goes to kill him because she wants him to pay for what he did.
SoraanTribal
Member
1) That was just another version of Elizabeth who was killed in another universe. Elizabeth says she "feels everything every version of me felt", so she knew the pain that baby Elizabeth suffered. It was what sparked her plan to get revenge on that "final Comstock" who escaped the purge at the end of Bioshock Infinite (by going into another universe).
2) Elizabeth wasn't really on the plane. It was just a really dramatic way to show Elizabeth having the vision of future events/seeing through the doors (Jack being on the plane) and a cool way to reveal the "Would You Kindly" bit. Atlas was talking about Jack at the end.. The "freak of nature" or whatever he said is referencing putting Jack on the plane which sets off the events of Bioshock 1. Atlas wasn't talking about Elizabeth.
TiredGamer
Member
I don't know if I can really add to this discussion (it seems to be sputtering out), but I just finished this and I'm definitely on the side of "this was bad". I want to lay out more except that it would probably be considered "TLDR". Maybe the best I should write now is that I consider this DLC to be Ken Levine's "End of Evangelion" for Bioshock.
So the debt is paid in full. I see this post ran long so if anyone cares to give it a read I'll divide my thoughts in a more easy to read form.
Infinite: I adored the original Infinite. The gameplay might had been flawed, but I found it fun (I guess you can cheese a lot of encounters but I had fun trying out different setups and just jumping around gunning stuff down). I truly fell in love with the world though. Columbia might not had been as intricate as Rapture, but both the graphical and musical designs of the game were fantastic and among the best in the medium, that I'm sure of. What really set the game apart from the others were not gameplay or art, but the characters and the story. The story is really well laid out (apart from some hitches, like Lady Comstock Ghost) and watching it unfold is absolutely delightful. Characters are crafted in a way not often seen in gaming. They actually do have background (interesting, non-standard one, that is) and their development is actually quite believable. Oh and they change a lot, Elizabeth especially. Essentially, the story was about Liz, not Booker, and her character grows over Infinite in a pretty logical way. I liked these softer, more personal, more lively moments, like Elizabeth dancing at the beginning of the game, or, not surprisingly, "Will the circle be unbroken". They might be cheap, but they really added a certain flair and charm to the game. I was, also, completely satisfied with the ending. It made the game self-contained, it answered enough questions that had to be answered, it was poignant at moments and genuinely surprising (but not in a cheap way, you can infer a lot of the ending from the earlier narrative of the game). Pretty much the perfect ending. There was a possible sequel hook, but even without a follow-up the story was done, and it was done in a great way.
Episode 1: Then came Burial at Sea. Sadly. Episode 1 was simply disappointing, it felt more like a prologue than a full dlc, introduced barely any concepts to the game and for the most part did not push the story forward. Not much more can be said, really. It's not even shocking considering the development of it, if I had to guess they had to deliver on the promise of 3 dlcs, BI didn't reach insane sales goals, Ken's goal was to tell the story in Episode 2 so to fill the quota Irrational put together Episode 1. And it's fine at times. The middle is mostly blank and same-y, but the opening is quite strong (even if I found it distracting that it seemed like they inflated Elizabeth's breast for no reason, or at least it seemed like it) and it was interesting to have at least a brief glimpse at Rapture before it's fall. Then blah blah we went to warehouse which was more damp dank abandoned Rapture we've spent 2.5 (BS2 exists, no matter how Ken wishes it didn't) games before. The ending was mostly interesting and exciting, with prospect of BaS Ep2 at the horizon. Luteces appeared again, Liz did not only look like noir Femme Fatale, she actually seemed like she changed a ton since we last saw her at Booker's ill-fated baptism. Where will the story go? What's truly happening?
Episode 2: Burial at Sea Episode 2 happened. Sadly. OK, the opening is beautiful and amazing. Right off the bat we see this is not like Episode 1, this game will be surprising and add something substantial to Bioshock canon. Loved it. But then the things go off-rails. Sure, the gameplay is considerably different and the dlc overall is much more fleshed out, adding to the feel that BaS 1 was a stop-gap and this one was one of the originally planned dlcs. It feels like an actual meaty dlc. Stealth was an interesting idea, even if at times the implementation was sorta hamfisted (why can you run up to the enemy and knock them out before they see you!?). Peeping Tom was op, and the game didn't reward you in any way for using stealth, or punish you for simply annihilating everything in your path. I enjoyed the decoding scenes. Visually they were interesting and made BaS Ep. 2 stand that much out compared to BI. They were cool and improved the game, is what I'm saying. But the story. Oooh, the story. Ugh.
Elizabeth's existence: First, after the wondrous opening we get an explanation why we're not playing as an omniscient, omnipotent being. So for whatever reason Liz is killed by Big Daddy and due to plot she can't teleport. Or she foresaw she has to die in order to succeed or something. So in order to return to the land of the living she can choose to collapse all other Elizabeths into one that is still alive, though lacking powers. Why, how? Plot reasons. I understand it was done as not to break gameplay, it wouldn't make sense to play Elizabeth that knows everything that happens and can open any tear she wishes at a whim. But the way it was done was the very opposite of elegant. Why are there still Elizabeths around? Why are there more than BaS Ep 1 Elizabeths? This is not only stupid, but it's also the first time Ep 2 takes a jab at diminishing the importance of Infinite's story and it's ending.
Columbia's existence: Then of course we return to Columbia. But wasn't Booker's drowning means to end Columbia's existence across every possible reality? It's not some random Columbia either, it's exactly the same Columbia which we visited earlier and played through in Infinite! That means the ending of Infinite had no discernible effect on the timeline. The diminishing of the ending continues since now it's meaningless. Sure, maybe you can apply casuality in here, but wasn't Comstock's drowning at baptism supposed to end him and Columbia everywhere, across every timeline? Infinite's plot had no sense then, we didn't achieve anything, everything's as it was before and we can't do anything and it's not something that had to be included. It's not the way it was supposed to be. It makes the game the more non-important. Thanks Ken.
Fitzroy retcon: While we're in Columbia another shocker is dropped on us. Daisy Fitzroy's death was actually instrumented by the Luteces! She had to die in order for Liz to be become a woman. Because killing someone is what makes a girl a woman. Right. So now Fitzroy's turn in Fink Manufacturing timeline is made the less shocking because she didn't actually turn, she was forced to act like a villain and go as far as she can for Elizabeth to kill her. This is completely forced and included only as an apology to those who felt her change in attitude abrupt. I thought it made sense in the context of Infinite narrative's. I kinda thought it as some spin on "revolution devouring it's own children" (the quote probably came to my mind due to Elizabeth's happy-go-lucky "It's gonna be like Les Miserables ~♪" not short before). Nope, Luteces made her evulz. This at the same time cheapens Elizabeth's character development and one of the shocking moments in the original game. Daisy's death wasn't truly our heroine's decision, she was forced to do it, instrumented to do it. A man chooses, a slave obeys, Liz didn't have a choice, she had to obey. Once again, thanks Ken, great job developing Infinite's ongoing story.
Links to Bioshock 1: Finally, the big one. Elizabeth is instrumental in bringing Jack to Rapture and setting in motion the events of original Bioshock! This is so bad on so many levels. This lessens the impact of Bioshock Infinite's plot, it's setting, it's ending, it's characters, those character's development, pretty much everything about Infinite. This game wasn't it's own standalone story, it was a stepping stone so that Bioshock might happen and Jack can rescue Little Sisters. Adding insult to injury. I've got three monumental problems with this one. First of all, these games needing to be that closely tied together. It's ok that they exist in the same universe, but they don't have to ultimately lead into one another. I kinda feel like Ken was so enamored with his original creation in Bioshock and it's Rapture he couldn't let Infinite, bearing Bioshock's name, be too disconnected from it and to be lost among the infinite timelines presented in Infinite's final chapter. It doesn't add much to Bioshock at this point and it only detracts from Infinite's impact. Second, the story. Bioshock was the story of Rapture, the fallen utopia that has gone to hell. That was ultimately what made Bioshock stand out. The actual story, the plot, the events that transpired in the game were rather weak and not really of note. It does not stand out, it's there and it's mostly used to show us different faces and aspects of Rapture. Otherwise we're just travelling through the city guided by Atlas/Fontaine and there's not much to it apart from Would You Kindly. Especially since after that point the story goes to being really bad, the villain gets dumb and the ending as we all know was disastrous. The plot of Infinite was infinitely better which means retconning it to be instrumental to bring about Jack's trip through Rapture all that more insulting. Third, the characters. Eugh. Infinite had a great cast. Booker and Elizabeth, the Luteces, maybe even Comstock once we realize he is Booker and we can think about what made him so much different from Booker. The story in Infinite was much more personal and about the characters, which were interesting, intriguing, mysterious (Luteces!). Bioshock had... Andrew Ryan? Sander Cohen was one creepy goosebump-inducing madman and I guess Tenenbaum and Suchong were there, but they weren't terribly noteworthy and not much more than hands pulling the great chain, instrumental in development of Rapture. Our protagonist was Jack. A brainwashed mute in a white sweater with the most common name imaginable. He was ok for a player character in the game and perfect for Would You Kindly twist, but he wasn't any sort of interesting. Vessel to show us through Rapture. Let me take one brief moment here to rant about Frank Fontaine. I hate Fontaine. But I hate him not because he is a terrible human being, but because I consider him a bad character. We're told in the first game Fontaine is this cruel genius that rose to power as head of Fontaine Futuristics. He is also a man with vision (as Ryan himself notes) that managed to gather a following among splicers. I just can't reconcile how this man is supposed to be that idiot bloke that we meet repeatedly throughout the series (sure there were many political leaders that weren't the brightest bunch, but often they stumbled into power or were charismatic, which I don't see Atlas as to be honest). At would you kindly he gets hit with an idiotball hard and throughout the third act of Bioshock he is acting like a ridiculously over-the-top cliche-to-the-max villain. Final fight of the game doesn't help much. Ugh. Again through Episode 2 I went on hating him because I hate how he is presented as Atlas. I just can't. In my head he doesn't fit at all with what he is supposed to be like in the universe. It's jarring. He is not much more than a cruel (lobotomy scene or not, ugh that was disgusting, I had to look away from the screen jesus) run-of-the-mill mob boss. And Elizabeth, the best developed character of the series that we watched grow in Infinite as a character crash and burn in front of us. She is sacrificed for the non-character Jack. Killed by that despicable idiot Fontaine. To make way for the average story of Bioshock and it's horrid, horrid ending. In one sweep a ton of what made Infinite unique is undone.
Random musings: One more word about answering questions and retcons. I disliked that they tried to answer questions that didn't need answering, didn't go far enough with some of the explanations and didn't have to retcon that much. I already wrote about Fitzroy, the retcon most likely made to mend some of the Internet backlash about her turn to the villain. Unnecessary. Same with Liz existing in Episode 2, some flimsy explanation about collapsing other versions of the character into one that is alive and mortal. The same is done to Luteces. Episode 1 ending teased us with Luteces, implying they will be involved in the plot of Episode 2. After that we see them once more only I think to deliver the Fitzroy retcon. Otherwise, somehow they managed to for some plot-no-jutsu reason become normal mortals again. Done. Unsatisfying, unnecessary. Songbird. Irrational went far enough to tell us about Songbird's origins with that weird lion with a thorn in it's paw logic, but stopped just at the end before everything would be revealed. Answering questions done wrong. Just do it, if you went as far as explaining how Songbird came to be just reveal it, you're seemingly not touching the series ever again anyway. Cheap, stupid. Connected to that, I don't know about that deal with imprinting and Big Daddies. It felt like Ken/Irrational went out of their way to retcon Bioshock 2 and Minverva's Den the hell out of existence. Which is made worse by the fact that Bioshock 2, and especially Minerva's Den were far more tasteful and respectful to source material and managed to enrich Rapture (I guess Bioshock 2 might be arguable to some, but Minerva's Den was great). None of which Burial at Sea is to Infinite.
So, to sum up. Mechnically, it's a good, meaty, meaningful dlc that presents us with a neat twist on the gameplay of the original. However, I wish I could just forget it. I wish I could just treat it as fan fiction but I can't. Infinite was a self-contained story that worked wonderfully. This right here. It's like that Spiderman 3 gif. Burial at Sea makes Infinite worse than it actually was. Which is a terrible thing because I loved the game. I'll always have Infinite but... I just wish I could erase Burial at Sea from my memory. It would be better that way.
Fake edit: I just remembered I forgot about it, Elizabeth's voice actor did a fantastic job in Burial at Sea. "Booker, I miss you". Damn, man. One of the high points of the dlc.
Infinite: I adored the original Infinite. The gameplay might had been flawed, but I found it fun (I guess you can cheese a lot of encounters but I had fun trying out different setups and just jumping around gunning stuff down). I truly fell in love with the world though. Columbia might not had been as intricate as Rapture, but both the graphical and musical designs of the game were fantastic and among the best in the medium, that I'm sure of. What really set the game apart from the others were not gameplay or art, but the characters and the story. The story is really well laid out (apart from some hitches, like Lady Comstock Ghost) and watching it unfold is absolutely delightful. Characters are crafted in a way not often seen in gaming. They actually do have background (interesting, non-standard one, that is) and their development is actually quite believable. Oh and they change a lot, Elizabeth especially. Essentially, the story was about Liz, not Booker, and her character grows over Infinite in a pretty logical way. I liked these softer, more personal, more lively moments, like Elizabeth dancing at the beginning of the game, or, not surprisingly, "Will the circle be unbroken". They might be cheap, but they really added a certain flair and charm to the game. I was, also, completely satisfied with the ending. It made the game self-contained, it answered enough questions that had to be answered, it was poignant at moments and genuinely surprising (but not in a cheap way, you can infer a lot of the ending from the earlier narrative of the game). Pretty much the perfect ending. There was a possible sequel hook, but even without a follow-up the story was done, and it was done in a great way.
Episode 1: Then came Burial at Sea. Sadly. Episode 1 was simply disappointing, it felt more like a prologue than a full dlc, introduced barely any concepts to the game and for the most part did not push the story forward. Not much more can be said, really. It's not even shocking considering the development of it, if I had to guess they had to deliver on the promise of 3 dlcs, BI didn't reach insane sales goals, Ken's goal was to tell the story in Episode 2 so to fill the quota Irrational put together Episode 1. And it's fine at times. The middle is mostly blank and same-y, but the opening is quite strong (even if I found it distracting that it seemed like they inflated Elizabeth's breast for no reason, or at least it seemed like it) and it was interesting to have at least a brief glimpse at Rapture before it's fall. Then blah blah we went to warehouse which was more damp dank abandoned Rapture we've spent 2.5 (BS2 exists, no matter how Ken wishes it didn't) games before. The ending was mostly interesting and exciting, with prospect of BaS Ep2 at the horizon. Luteces appeared again, Liz did not only look like noir Femme Fatale, she actually seemed like she changed a ton since we last saw her at Booker's ill-fated baptism. Where will the story go? What's truly happening?
Episode 2: Burial at Sea Episode 2 happened. Sadly. OK, the opening is beautiful and amazing. Right off the bat we see this is not like Episode 1, this game will be surprising and add something substantial to Bioshock canon. Loved it. But then the things go off-rails. Sure, the gameplay is considerably different and the dlc overall is much more fleshed out, adding to the feel that BaS 1 was a stop-gap and this one was one of the originally planned dlcs. It feels like an actual meaty dlc. Stealth was an interesting idea, even if at times the implementation was sorta hamfisted (why can you run up to the enemy and knock them out before they see you!?). Peeping Tom was op, and the game didn't reward you in any way for using stealth, or punish you for simply annihilating everything in your path. I enjoyed the decoding scenes. Visually they were interesting and made BaS Ep. 2 stand that much out compared to BI. They were cool and improved the game, is what I'm saying. But the story. Oooh, the story. Ugh.
Elizabeth's existence: First, after the wondrous opening we get an explanation why we're not playing as an omniscient, omnipotent being. So for whatever reason Liz is killed by Big Daddy and due to plot she can't teleport. Or she foresaw she has to die in order to succeed or something. So in order to return to the land of the living she can choose to collapse all other Elizabeths into one that is still alive, though lacking powers. Why, how? Plot reasons. I understand it was done as not to break gameplay, it wouldn't make sense to play Elizabeth that knows everything that happens and can open any tear she wishes at a whim. But the way it was done was the very opposite of elegant. Why are there still Elizabeths around? Why are there more than BaS Ep 1 Elizabeths? This is not only stupid, but it's also the first time Ep 2 takes a jab at diminishing the importance of Infinite's story and it's ending.
Columbia's existence: Then of course we return to Columbia. But wasn't Booker's drowning means to end Columbia's existence across every possible reality? It's not some random Columbia either, it's exactly the same Columbia which we visited earlier and played through in Infinite! That means the ending of Infinite had no discernible effect on the timeline. The diminishing of the ending continues since now it's meaningless. Sure, maybe you can apply casuality in here, but wasn't Comstock's drowning at baptism supposed to end him and Columbia everywhere, across every timeline? Infinite's plot had no sense then, we didn't achieve anything, everything's as it was before and we can't do anything and it's not something that had to be included. It's not the way it was supposed to be. It makes the game the more non-important. Thanks Ken.
Fitzroy retcon: While we're in Columbia another shocker is dropped on us. Daisy Fitzroy's death was actually instrumented by the Luteces! She had to die in order for Liz to be become a woman. Because killing someone is what makes a girl a woman. Right. So now Fitzroy's turn in Fink Manufacturing timeline is made the less shocking because she didn't actually turn, she was forced to act like a villain and go as far as she can for Elizabeth to kill her. This is completely forced and included only as an apology to those who felt her change in attitude abrupt. I thought it made sense in the context of Infinite narrative's. I kinda thought it as some spin on "revolution devouring it's own children" (the quote probably came to my mind due to Elizabeth's happy-go-lucky "It's gonna be like Les Miserables ~♪" not short before). Nope, Luteces made her evulz. This at the same time cheapens Elizabeth's character development and one of the shocking moments in the original game. Daisy's death wasn't truly our heroine's decision, she was forced to do it, instrumented to do it. A man chooses, a slave obeys, Liz didn't have a choice, she had to obey. Once again, thanks Ken, great job developing Infinite's ongoing story.
Links to Bioshock 1: Finally, the big one. Elizabeth is instrumental in bringing Jack to Rapture and setting in motion the events of original Bioshock! This is so bad on so many levels. This lessens the impact of Bioshock Infinite's plot, it's setting, it's ending, it's characters, those character's development, pretty much everything about Infinite. This game wasn't it's own standalone story, it was a stepping stone so that Bioshock might happen and Jack can rescue Little Sisters. Adding insult to injury. I've got three monumental problems with this one. First of all, these games needing to be that closely tied together. It's ok that they exist in the same universe, but they don't have to ultimately lead into one another. I kinda feel like Ken was so enamored with his original creation in Bioshock and it's Rapture he couldn't let Infinite, bearing Bioshock's name, be too disconnected from it and to be lost among the infinite timelines presented in Infinite's final chapter. It doesn't add much to Bioshock at this point and it only detracts from Infinite's impact. Second, the story. Bioshock was the story of Rapture, the fallen utopia that has gone to hell. That was ultimately what made Bioshock stand out. The actual story, the plot, the events that transpired in the game were rather weak and not really of note. It does not stand out, it's there and it's mostly used to show us different faces and aspects of Rapture. Otherwise we're just travelling through the city guided by Atlas/Fontaine and there's not much to it apart from Would You Kindly. Especially since after that point the story goes to being really bad, the villain gets dumb and the ending as we all know was disastrous. The plot of Infinite was infinitely better which means retconning it to be instrumental to bring about Jack's trip through Rapture all that more insulting. Third, the characters. Eugh. Infinite had a great cast. Booker and Elizabeth, the Luteces, maybe even Comstock once we realize he is Booker and we can think about what made him so much different from Booker. The story in Infinite was much more personal and about the characters, which were interesting, intriguing, mysterious (Luteces!). Bioshock had... Andrew Ryan? Sander Cohen was one creepy goosebump-inducing madman and I guess Tenenbaum and Suchong were there, but they weren't terribly noteworthy and not much more than hands pulling the great chain, instrumental in development of Rapture. Our protagonist was Jack. A brainwashed mute in a white sweater with the most common name imaginable. He was ok for a player character in the game and perfect for Would You Kindly twist, but he wasn't any sort of interesting. Vessel to show us through Rapture. Let me take one brief moment here to rant about Frank Fontaine. I hate Fontaine. But I hate him not because he is a terrible human being, but because I consider him a bad character. We're told in the first game Fontaine is this cruel genius that rose to power as head of Fontaine Futuristics. He is also a man with vision (as Ryan himself notes) that managed to gather a following among splicers. I just can't reconcile how this man is supposed to be that idiot bloke that we meet repeatedly throughout the series (sure there were many political leaders that weren't the brightest bunch, but often they stumbled into power or were charismatic, which I don't see Atlas as to be honest). At would you kindly he gets hit with an idiotball hard and throughout the third act of Bioshock he is acting like a ridiculously over-the-top cliche-to-the-max villain. Final fight of the game doesn't help much. Ugh. Again through Episode 2 I went on hating him because I hate how he is presented as Atlas. I just can't. In my head he doesn't fit at all with what he is supposed to be like in the universe. It's jarring. He is not much more than a cruel (lobotomy scene or not, ugh that was disgusting, I had to look away from the screen jesus) run-of-the-mill mob boss. And Elizabeth, the best developed character of the series that we watched grow in Infinite as a character crash and burn in front of us. She is sacrificed for the non-character Jack. Killed by that despicable idiot Fontaine. To make way for the average story of Bioshock and it's horrid, horrid ending. In one sweep a ton of what made Infinite unique is undone.
Random musings: One more word about answering questions and retcons. I disliked that they tried to answer questions that didn't need answering, didn't go far enough with some of the explanations and didn't have to retcon that much. I already wrote about Fitzroy, the retcon most likely made to mend some of the Internet backlash about her turn to the villain. Unnecessary. Same with Liz existing in Episode 2, some flimsy explanation about collapsing other versions of the character into one that is alive and mortal. The same is done to Luteces. Episode 1 ending teased us with Luteces, implying they will be involved in the plot of Episode 2. After that we see them once more only I think to deliver the Fitzroy retcon. Otherwise, somehow they managed to for some plot-no-jutsu reason become normal mortals again. Done. Unsatisfying, unnecessary. Songbird. Irrational went far enough to tell us about Songbird's origins with that weird lion with a thorn in it's paw logic, but stopped just at the end before everything would be revealed. Answering questions done wrong. Just do it, if you went as far as explaining how Songbird came to be just reveal it, you're seemingly not touching the series ever again anyway. Cheap, stupid. Connected to that, I don't know about that deal with imprinting and Big Daddies. It felt like Ken/Irrational went out of their way to retcon Bioshock 2 and Minverva's Den the hell out of existence. Which is made worse by the fact that Bioshock 2, and especially Minerva's Den were far more tasteful and respectful to source material and managed to enrich Rapture (I guess Bioshock 2 might be arguable to some, but Minerva's Den was great). None of which Burial at Sea is to Infinite.
So, to sum up. Mechnically, it's a good, meaty, meaningful dlc that presents us with a neat twist on the gameplay of the original. However, I wish I could just forget it. I wish I could just treat it as fan fiction but I can't. Infinite was a self-contained story that worked wonderfully. This right here. It's like that Spiderman 3 gif. Burial at Sea makes Infinite worse than it actually was. Which is a terrible thing because I loved the game. I'll always have Infinite but... I just wish I could erase Burial at Sea from my memory. It would be better that way.
Fake edit: I just remembered I forgot about it, Elizabeth's voice actor did a fantastic job in Burial at Sea. "Booker, I miss you". Damn, man. One of the high points of the dlc.
I agree with pretty much everything you said. Except for Infinite having a way better plotline than Rapture, but that's a difference in taste.
The pooch got screwed a bit in pretty much every area in BaS2's plot. Regressed the power of both stories by a huge margin. Did a massive disservice to the kind of story arc and ending Elizabeth deserved if they were going to keep her around.
And yeah, Columbia existing and negating Infinite's ending.. I'd already come to that conclusion with Comstock still existing in BaS1. There's just no way around that unless you retcon the logic of Infinite, and if you do that, you retcon the importance of the ending of that game.
And what's more, Columbia seemed to exist just so you could see it one more time, not so it could have any relevance to the plot. That Songbird thing was a totally dropped ball, almost tragically so. But the development, I would assume, was rather strange and tortured, so I guess there just wasn't an opportunity to create an actual story that would do Elizabeth and the world of Infinite justice. They went with the quick and cheap "storytelling cheat code" and connected her to a story that was already finished (Rapture) so they could end it quick, ship the product, and dissolve Bioshock forever.
Kinda sad.
Amen on Minerva's Den and the idea that it enriched Rapture. Totally. I also loved the idea that Tanenbaum was close to discovering a cure for ADAM sickness, and I really wanted to see that play out. Really felt like they were approaching the redemption of Rapture, and ending the story at last. Minerva's Den, I assume, is as close as we're going to get now that Bioshock is never coming back.
The pooch got screwed a bit in pretty much every area in BaS2's plot. Regressed the power of both stories by a huge margin. Did a massive disservice to the kind of story arc and ending Elizabeth deserved if they were going to keep her around.
And yeah, Columbia existing and negating Infinite's ending.. I'd already come to that conclusion with Comstock still existing in BaS1. There's just no way around that unless you retcon the logic of Infinite, and if you do that, you retcon the importance of the ending of that game.
And what's more, Columbia seemed to exist just so you could see it one more time, not so it could have any relevance to the plot. That Songbird thing was a totally dropped ball, almost tragically so. But the development, I would assume, was rather strange and tortured, so I guess there just wasn't an opportunity to create an actual story that would do Elizabeth and the world of Infinite justice. They went with the quick and cheap "storytelling cheat code" and connected her to a story that was already finished (Rapture) so they could end it quick, ship the product, and dissolve Bioshock forever.
Kinda sad.
Amen on Minerva's Den and the idea that it enriched Rapture. Totally. I also loved the idea that Tanenbaum was close to discovering a cure for ADAM sickness, and I really wanted to see that play out. Really felt like they were approaching the redemption of Rapture, and ending the story at last. Minerva's Den, I assume, is as close as we're going to get now that Bioshock is never coming back.
The perfect Dark
Banned
It's possible. But honestly, after I saw the ending in Episode 2 I don't care anymore. Levine fucked it up.
Malmorian
Member
All of this talk saddens me, knowing that this is the last of Bioshock we'll ever see. My fav 1st person shooter in years has come to an end. I can only hope that it will inspire another studio to be this bold.
B1/2/I will always have a seat at the top for me, and after numerous playthroughs...well, I wish it was better but i'm happy with what I got.
B1/2/I will always have a seat at the top for me, and after numerous playthroughs...well, I wish it was better but i'm happy with what I got.
Not true. Bioshock is a valuable IP. Bioshock 2 was not developed by KL. Take-Two and 2K will create more Bioshock's for sure, but KL will not be involved is all.
Good post. I agree with most of it. I just wish that the DLC had not messed with the main story. I wanted to see a Fitzroy rebellion DLC, or some other side story. KL destroying the main story, and making it even more illogical than it already was... was just dumb.
A Fitzroy DLC would have been really interesting--could have been a way to get back to Columbia before everything went to shit, and it seems to me you could mine a lot out of the setting by just visiting it as a black woman and seeing how you were subtly treated worse.
Assuming the role of another Vox member and perhaps playing through events in the universe that Booker and Liz ultimately arrived in would also have been interesting.
And insofar as Booker, I always wondered if Booker really was a hero in that universe he died in. Was he honestly trying to make a just system, or was he just in it for his own motives and was deified after the fact?
What about a Vox member who fought by the side of Martyr-Booker, and then later you find the Booker from the other reality after the martyr is dead?
That's sort of what I was thinking about, but I don't think I need another Bioshock narrative where I (the playable character) end up getting killed in the end.
That's sort of what I was thinking about, but I don't think I need another Bioshock narrative where I (the playable character) end up getting killed in the end.
Maybe you wouldn't have to. First half of the game is fighting for the Vox, then seeing how fucked up the revolution really is, and when given the order to kill Booker, you refuse and all the crazies turn on you (save for the few friends you have from the Vox who join your side)
That's true. It would help (or at this point, I should say "would have added") dimension to the Vox cause, and maybe just make it a little more realistic--if we're talking real life I think it would be hard to immediately swallow "this hero we thought was dead is actually alive... but he's evil so just kill him" in the span on an elevator ride.
What would be the endgame? Until BaS screwed with a reasonable interpretation, all the Columbias ultimately ceased to exist, but I do wonder essentially if that didn't happen what would become of Columbia since the Vox essentially own it at the end of the campaign. Do you and your buddies get out of dodge like the Founders? Do you try and wrest control away from Fitzroy's allies? What are you left with by the end?
But yeah, Columbia would definitely have to be apocalyptic at that point. There are universes where Elizabeth rules Columbia like Comstock wanted, and this is not one of them. This is the one where Columbia falls. But how the fall is survived... is up to you.
And it'd be a cool opportunity to see some of the character types you saw as enemies have specific variations that are likeable characters with personalities and names. And since there were Two Elizabeths in the Vox universe, maybe you run into that second one.
And it'd be a cool opportunity to see some of the character types you saw as enemies have specific variations that are likeable characters with personalities and names. And since there were Two Elizabeths in the Vox universe, maybe you run into that second one.
.Oh. It just occurred to me that I'd always assumed the Elizabeth of the "Vox timeline" was still in her tower. Which would have meant (assuming that we're still in the same universe by the end of the game) that she would have been killed when the monument and siphon were destroyed. Never thought that through.
Alternatively she might have just been killed by the Vox at any point. They certainly have no reason to keep her alive.
(Yet another digressiondo the Vox know who Elizabeth actually is? Presumably not BaS I guess makes this clear as the Leuteces are just telling Daisy someone's coming that needs to "leave a woman".)
And, going back to BaS Episode 2 thoughts, I groaned at that "what makes a woman blood" line. The voice actors try their best but it's such a nonsensical point of logic and such an obvious menstruation gag it took me out of the moment.
I agree with most of that, but not with the Bioshock 1 stuff. In my opinion it was easily better than Infinite in almost every way. Infinite is better in the last hour or so, I'll give you that.
SoraanTribal
Member
I definitely agree with you in most everything. I enjoyed Bioshock 1, but I much preferred Infinite for the characters, story, and even the setting. But I feel like BaS kind of made Infinite worse in some ways. I'm just going to try my hardest to ignore BaS and consider it noncanon/fanfiction. In my mind, Infinite ended with all the Elizabeths and Columbias vanishing. That makes for a far better ending than Elizabeth bludgeoned to death by Atlas. Just thinking about the BaS ending still pisses me off.
Doubtful. Once Booker is drowned and Comstock ceases to have ever existed, Elizabeth's entire existence becomes a paradox. Splitting paths or no, she can't exist.
Right now, I don't think it's possible to fit Burial at Sea into canon while meeting all the "rules" of Infinite. Hell, I'm still trying to figure out how Burial-Booker can be the last Comstock if splits keep on creating new ones.
My best attempts to rationalize everything involves everything taking place concurrently with the Vox revolution, Burial at Sea 2 Elizabeth being the Anna that had her head lopped off (she's the only Liz/Anna with all her fingers...and if a tear accident gave the Luteces powers, why not her?) and Rapture effectively being anchored, preventing any new splits or universes from branching off.
I could certainly see making some allowances to get her out of her tower. Like she gets out thanks to the chaos caused by the fighting, and sneaks around Columbia on her own, trying to hop on one of the ships out of the city without being seen by her father's men or the Vox. Unfortunately, she never quite makes it off due to Songbird, so she stays in Columbia helping regular people get out of the city until the Siphon is destroyed.
Or it happens in a parallel reality where the Siphon isn't completely destroyed, and she goes down with the city, helping people with her last breath; or Songbird is killed somehow - crushed by a falling building and plunged into the sea -and Liz is helped onto one of the ships by the ex-Vox rebels like the rest of the populace. There are lots of ways you could do it, depending on what story you want to tell. Levine's mechanics don't limit you here.
Well, everyone knows about "the lamb," right? They just haven't seen her. If she's freed because of the fighting, it's possible in this reality that a zeppelin or something eventually smashes into her tower, giving her an out.
She escapes by stealing an air hook from one of the bodies, but she's seen doing this by the Vox (maybe it was the city guard's zeppelins that got shot down, and the Vox responsible are flying around nearby.) Now they know she's out there - Comstock's daughter - and part of their insanity becomes about hunting her down. Posters and whatnot go up around the city. That makes her sneaking around Columbia doubly important. Stealth mechanics, if you wanted to make her playable instead of the ex-Vox. But keeping the POV unique in this case would probably be for the best, leaving her to one or two minor appearances, and when we see her, we just assume she's been sneaky. You could even put her in Belle's brown cloak from Beauty and the Beast.
Bedameister
Member
I just finished it for the third time. Still brilliant. The Intro and the Ending are probably the best I've ever played. I replayed Infinite and both DLCs and I while I was playing them I was writing down notes on paper; important dates, theories and all because I thought it would help me to understand all of it this time. It did help a little but I just have to deal with it: This multiverse stuff is too complicated and there is too much stuff that doesn't make sense. However I'm okay with that and I really loved both DLCs.
Now it's time to replay Bioshock 1 and 2.
Now it's time to replay Bioshock 1 and 2.
petran79
Banned
Regarding Bioshock Infinite, while more cinematic than its predecessors, it felt too convoluted at some points. Trying to add that sort of parallel universe story and then mixing it with the story of Bioshock 1 and 2 felt overboard after a certain point.
A linear story would have been just as attractive for the franchise, like Bioshock 1,2, prior to BaS production.
They really did well with the character development. Even the Big Daddies and Little Sisters in BaS get character. Something missing in Bioshock 1 and 2.
Regarding gameplay, not much has changed. Things got simplified even more. I didnt care for either the stealth or shooting. After a point I set it on easy for the story to progress.
Such a good story does not belong in an FPS.
While a good game, Minerva's Den remains still the best Bioshock episode and Bioshock 1 the best Bioshock game.
A linear story would have been just as attractive for the franchise, like Bioshock 1,2, prior to BaS production.
They really did well with the character development. Even the Big Daddies and Little Sisters in BaS get character. Something missing in Bioshock 1 and 2.
Regarding gameplay, not much has changed. Things got simplified even more. I didnt care for either the stealth or shooting. After a point I set it on easy for the story to progress.
Such a good story does not belong in an FPS.
While a good game, Minerva's Den remains still the best Bioshock episode and Bioshock 1 the best Bioshock game.
Play with a 15 minutes timer at first and take breaks, don't be too close to the tv (something other than the tv should be in your field of sight), don't play with your lights off. These are the things that usually work for me, but then again it heavily depends on the game and its control, never had any issue with Bioshocks. Also, I tend to get used to a particular game and can progressively extend the amount of time I play it per session. Do you suffer from motion sickness often?
No, almost exclusively from games. Certain FPS games are especially bad, the original Half Life had me bedridden after 30 minutes and I never finished it. I did play through BI, but I remember feeling pretty awful the whole time.
I will try your advice. Thanks.
I think FPSes are the most likely to cause it because of the perspective and movement. Sometimes a wide FOV helps me, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes a low, locked framerate helps, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes the feeling gets worse when I adjust for things that had previously helped. I don't know if it depends on the game, or the screen, or the environment, but I know the result is terrible and lasts for hours after turning off the game.
I've always had slight motion sickness from playing games, but it's become worse the older I get. One of the reasons I stick mostly to mobile now. Don't have that problem with small screens.
(unless i play in a car, in which case bleghh.)
Agreed. Burial at Sea to me will always be the black sheep of the franchise in terms of narrative.
PedroLumpy
Member
Interesting question for the Episode 2 Spoiler thread.
I ran into the same bug. No fix that I'm aware of, I had to restart.
I ran into the same bug. No fix that I'm aware of, I had to restart.