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BioShock Infinite: Burial at Sea - Episode Two - Spoiler OT

Tomodachi

Member
Just noticed that the cafe in Paris and the one in Rapture from Episode 1 share the same name (Les Temps Perdu, the lost times). Marcel Proust says hi ;)

Why was Atlas an Aussie-guy at first and then he was Fontaine? I thought Fontaine was a bald guy?

Or when did Fontaine die and Atlas overtook his identity? Wasn't somewhere in Bioshock 1?

What, when did this happen?

I... I think you should play Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite again :p

Atlas IS Fontaine. Fontaine pretended to be dead but simply took the alias of Atlas, with makeup and everything. He was some kind of master at this, having impersonated many characters in the past (it says so in an audiodiary in Bioshock 1).

The Luteces are dead in Bioshock Infinite, they even had tombs and a funeral. They are "scattered in the multiverse plane",as Rosalind put it in a voxophone, when they die. Actually, Comstock ordered their murder but it was carried out by Fink.
 

leng jai

Member
Just finished it and my mind is full of fuck. Is there a post or link that has an overview of the entire timeline of the Bioshock story?
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Not... really. Fontaine never would've taken over without Liz (ugh) making sure he could. And considering how important an event it was, someone else would've killed Fontaine if not Jack. He might've even just died on his own with no way out of Rapture prison.

The implication from Bioshock is that Atlas is on the verge of defeat, thanks to Ryan forsaking his principles and using pheromones to control the splicers. Ryan wouldn't have been left with much of a city left, but it's fairly clear Fontaine would have lost without Jack.

Just finished it and my mind is full of fuck. Is there a post or link that has an overview of the entire timeline of the Bioshock story?

http://bioshock.wikia.com/wiki/Rapture_Storyline

Don't think there's a straight timeline as the only media we actually get hard dates for things are in the Rapture novel and (strangely enough) the voxophones in BaS.
 

Fuu

Formerly Alaluef (not Aladuf)
On Atlas/Fontaine, there's also an optional secret room in the Manta Ray Lounge where he keeps his wigs, make-up and the like, you get access to it after you collect the 4 coded messages.

Btw, did Elizabeth ever call Booker her dad?
I don't think so. I felt she was about to in BaS 2 when she's rambling about Booker at one point and she says something like "you were my... (pause) My only friend.".

Edit: Holycrap...there were dead bodies in the ocean during the Lutece boat ride at the start of BaS EP2: http://youtu.be/68cs1NmoHOE
Aw hell naw. Freaky. Wish I had noticed it during the scene.
 
I'm not sure if she was already all knowing in EP1. She was just a Eli like the one in Infinite. In Infinite she didn't know everything either I would say.

i think she was cause,she did mentioned the BaS1 was kind of revenge plan for what comstock did in an alternate timeline.
 
Atlas IS Fontaine. Fontaine pretended to be dead but simply took the alias of Atlas, with makeup and everything. He was some kind of master at this, having impersonated many characters in the past (it says so in an audiodiary in Bioshock 1).

There's also a locked room in Burial at Sea Part 2 that Elizabeth comes across. It's Fontaine's dressing room, with makeup and wigs and such. That's how she comes to realize Atlas is Fontaine (though honestly, looking at the contents of the room, I don't know how she'd have figured that out) and says so out loud, presumably for the player's benefit.

--------

Finished the DLC yesterday. I still don't know if I really like Burial at Sea of if I just got taken for a ride with all the multidimensional stuff. I'm beginning to lean towards "great ride while you're in it, easy to poke holes in the story once you're out," what with the Sally issues and the vagueness of the timeline involving Elizabeth's death, remorse and return. This might also stem from some confusion about the end of Infinite, where I never truly understood the significance of having a bunch of Elizabeths in one place to drown Comstock.

So are we assuming that once all the Comstocks are dead, all the Elizabeths are too, since there'd be no Comstock to "buy" her? Also, do we assume that each Comstock is, in a sense, drowned by their Elizabeth counterpart, and that the only reason one Comstock survived is because he had no Elizabeth to drown him? (Because if that's not the case, why does he not also die when the infinite Elizabeths drown the infinite Comstocks?)

Are the infinite Elizabeths already essentially one being, able to think and act as one (or just able to communicate with one another across universes)? Because if they're not, then who's the Elizabeth that hunts down the last Comstock? It's clearly not the Elizabeth of that timeline, since she's already dead because of the tear. Is it the Elizabeth we see begging Comstock (Booker?) to bring the baby through the tear (or let her go freely before it closes)? Who IS this Elizabeth? Do we assume it's "our" Elizabeth, the one we followed this whole time? Is she somehow an Elizabeth that existed in that Rapture timeline? What is she doing in the past, trying to save one version of her child self? Is it an attempt to repair that timeline so that that Comstock actually DOES die like the rest?

Then we come to Sally, which I think makes some sense but the casual link is weak. I assume the intent behind Elizabeth's return was something like this: Elizabeth had found the final Comstock, who had fled to Rapture in order to forget his sins (like baby-napping turned infanticide). At one point during Part 2, in the Manta Ray Lounge, you come across a poster of Elizabeth singing in Sander Cohen's artistic revue, and the fake Booker Elizabeth constructs for herself asks how that happened. She says she spent two months under Cohen trying to prep Comstock's demise; head-Booker asks why not kill him as soon as she gets there, and she says "he had to know why."

So she concocts a plan whereby something equally precious is taken away from him, like he tried to do to Booker, and once he understands the pain and torment this causes she can dispatch him. This is where things get fuzzy for me, and maybe it's just because I haven't heard enough audio logs or something, but: how much was Elizabeth involved in Sally's transformation into a Little Sister?

There's a lot of discussion in this thread about Sally being a weak link in the story--that she doesn't provide enough of a reason for Elizabeth to throw away her transdimensional abilities just to save one girl we don't even get to know. At first, I figured there was an easy answer for this: Elizabeth feels guilty because she used Sally as bait for Comstock, and this doesn't sit well with her. Sally, after all, isn't even his daughter; her role in all this is entirely incidental. But if Elizabeth just took advantage of an existing situation to lure Comstock out, she doesn't have much to be guilty for: temporarily putting Sally in peril for her own ends, yes, but nothing that seems strong enough to drive Elizabeth's self-sacrifice.

That's why I wonder if somehow Elizabeth is the one responsible for making her a Little Sister in the first place. It would then better explain her guilt at dooming Sally to a horrific life; it would explain her strong feelings about the Little Sister program in general; it would explain why she felt sacrificing herself to save ALL the Little Sisters was worth it. Basically, it translates an abstract notion of "Little Sisters are an abomination and the girls need to be rescued from that life" into something very concrete and personal. And though Elizabeth is very principled in some ways, it feels like she needs that extra push to collapse her transdimensional self into one mortal self.

Then there's the stuff with Elizabeth dying, what exactly that was supposed to mean for all Elizabeths (did they feel it? which Elizabeth died? etc.), how our second Elizabeth knew about the first (are they all linked or not?), etc. But those answers are even further beyond my reach because multiverse time-travel is confusing as all heck to me.
 
Are the infinite Elizabeths already essentially one being, able to think and act as one (or just able to communicate with one another across universes)?

snip

Then there's the stuff with Elizabeth dying, what exactly that was supposed to mean for all Elizabeths (did they feel it? which Elizabeth died? etc.), how our second Elizabeth knew about the first (are they all linked or not?), etc. But those answers are even further beyond my reach because multiverse time-travel is confusing as all heck to me.

I really have no concrete answers for most of your post, but at the beginning of the DLC (after Atlas leaves her), Elizabeth says: "I felt everything that every version of me felt. All of that knowledge. I lost a pinky, but that version of me lost everything." So by these lines, I think it's fairly safe to assume that when one Elizabeth dies, they all feel it. They all know what the others are thinking and what all knowledge they have. I think, anyways.

As far Sally, she just says "I didn't orphan that girl. I didn't kidnap her." Booker: "Nah, but she made for some exceptional bait, didn't she?" I don't think Elizabeth had anything to do with her being a Little Sister. I think she was just feeling guilty over using Sally as bait for Comstock and potentially leaving her to die in the heated vents.

If there is one thing I did like about the story of BaS is how they handled the parallel of Booker and Elizabeth - both used a child to get what they wanted (Booker sold Anna to pay off his debt; Elizabeth left Sally to "rot" to get petty revenge on the final Comstock), both had huge regrets over what they did and ended up sacrificing themselves to stop the cycle of violence. As the Luteces said, "The apple doesn't fall far from the tree." I feel like Booker's story was handled a lot better, though. I didn't really feel satisfied at the conclusion to BaS, and I think that is mostly due to me not giving a shit about Jack or the Little Sisters. Elizabeth saving them/Sally didn't pull any emotional heartstrings with me.
 
@chrominance
1 part of her motivation could be her own condition,how she was used as a test subject in Columbia.so when she was able to see all outcomes,she must have seen how this would save all the girls from this test subject faith and provide redemption for using the girl sally.


although 2 questions are still raised:-
1)the timelines of All comstocks in Columbia were destroyed at wounded knee,how is she still able to got there,do we assume,that even though those possibilities are gone,they can be still visited when going thru tear time machine.

2)Why was Eli in BaS1 not able to see her own demise and stop it somehow.
 

Hesemonni

Banned
rWgZalwl.jpg

Best Marketing notes.
 

BrokenBox

Member
I really enjoyed this DLC. You can kind of tell the idea was to bring back pretty much every main character to send the series off. In a 4-6 hour DLC, I'm surprised with how (mostly) well they did with this. Being a big fan of the series, I think it's funny I never heard the Daisy criticisms pre-DLC.

I was incredibly sad watching Elizabeth's end. One part touching due to Sally, the other part since it was a goodbye to the character and the great potential of playing as her again, as some other posters mentioned. Seriously, I loved the tense, stealth gameplay in this. I think the only time I didn't use stealth/the crossbow was when Ryan throws all the Splicers at you. I'm guessing most posters enjoyed the gameplay more this time since I'm not seeing as many complaints compared with BaS p1?

I haven't played B2 in awhile, so I'm not sure how the DLC fits or doesn't fit within B2 being canon other than some of the posts in the thread. As a fan of the series and that particular game, I'd love for B2 to be canon.

One other disappointment for me initially was how Elizabeth dies for a phrase. You later think about it and the ramifications to it, and it seems like a much better cause (i.e. the ending of B1). I still think it's a bit disappointing since I believe most of us thought the characters in Infinite, at least story-wise, had more weight to the story of the whole series. Still not a terrible end.

Last thing: getting nearer and nearer towards the end and seeing more references to the final boss fight with Atlas in B1 and Elizabeth mentioning the possibility of making small changes to history -- I thought Ken was going to rewrite the boss fight after it not being satisfying for fans and (as a result, later) himself. Turned out I was off on that.

Thanks, Irrational, 2K, and all the other teams that helped make this series! I really enjoyed it.
 

Terra_Ex

Member
Just finished, enjoyed both DLCs. Not really sure of my feelings on the ending right now, wasn't a fan of the multi-dimensional shenanigans in Infinite's ending (or in general) so it'll take me a while to settle on how I feel about the whole thing. There were a lot of feels with this dlc though, lots of nice callbacks to B1, will have to read up on the B2 theories later, hopefully that hasn't been rendered non-canon simply because a different team made it instead of Ken, I quite liked that game. Elizabeth's death, it just kind of came off like she was giving up as she knew that Jack would ultimately get Fontaine in the end and I'm sure how that sits with her initial plans in BaS1 where she supposedly sees all the doors/outcomes... It was a good DLC though, wasn't really happy to see B1 dragged into the dimensional nonsense tbh, but regardless, its sad that Irrational are no longer around to bring us more titles of this caliber.

On a side note, I quite enjoyed getting to see the plasmids in use in everyday life - that bit at the start of BaS1 with the waiter zipping around was pretty cool.
 
I present to you a compilation of Easter eggs found in EP2, shamelessly sourced from the internet.

rItZAMGh.png


Foreshadowing:

akKbXpVh.jpg


In BS1, one of Frank Fontaine's audio diaries says the following:

Nice work, boyo! Hahahahaha! Hahaha! Hahahaha! It's time to end this little masquerade. There ain't no 'Atlas', kid, never was. Someone in my line of work takes on a variety of aliases. Hell, once I was even a Chinaman for six months. But you've been a sport, so I guess I owe you a little honesty. Name's Frank Fontaine.

In the Manta Ray lounge, you find this:

lS6Sohyh.jpg


Finding out what the note really said:

oGMGqgjh.png


w5Etxgsh.png


More foreshadowing:

Ap0tVVFh.jpg


Even more foreshadowing (wrenches on the left):

27e3pVQh.jpg
 
Always with the foreshadowing, Ken. edit: lol one post too late, oh well.

I present to you a compilation of Easter eggs found in EP2, shamelessly sourced from the internet.

rItZAMGh.png


Foreshadowing:

akKbXpVh.jpg


In BS1, one of Frank Fontaine's audio diaries says the following:

Nice work, boyo! Hahahahaha! Hahaha! Hahahaha! It's time to end this little masquerade. There ain't no 'Atlas', kid, never was. Someone in my line of work takes on a variety of aliases. Hell, once I was even a Chinaman for six months. But you've been a sport, so I guess I owe you a little honesty. Name's Frank Fontaine.

In the Manta Ray lounge, you find this:

lS6Sohyh.jpg


Finding out what the note really said:

oGMGqgjh.png


w5Etxgsh.png


More foreshadowing:

Ap0tVVFh.jpg


Even more foreshadowing (wrenches on the left):

27e3pVQh.jpg

Great finds. I feel like there is so much to find in this. I will replay this a couple of times I'm sure
 
Some other things I found, there are bodies in the water while you are in the boat with the Luteces, but they're really bad 2D art and I can't quite tell who they are supposed to be. Other Elizabeths maybe?


Also if you wait around a bit after the Luteces leave, they start to sing rowrowrow your boat.
 

Bricky

Member
I'm suprised to find out quite a few people in this thread didn't like it. Then again I was suprised too when people started hating on the main part of Infinite so maybe I'm the weird one.

Where Episode 1 truly felt like a short and sweet DLC this was almost its own mini-Bioshock and I absolutely loved it. The whole opening in Paris was great, I really digged the stealth (it fits the game perfectly, funny that this was maybe the better Thief game than Thief was this year :p) and I thought the ending and all other plot-stuff really tied up the whole Bioshock universe quite nicely. Although I agree as others have already stated that it would've been nice to get a bit more closure/expansion on the Infinite-universe too.

After reading some explanations there's only two things left confusing me; what role Elizabeth actually plays in the events setting up the original Bioshock (so she is somewhat responsible for what ends up happening in the original? If so, does that make the whole Bioshock/Infinite story a loop even though closing a loop was the entire point of the events in Infinite?) and why the hell she went back to save one Little Sister. Maybe I don't get it, but it felt like a bad excuse to make her go back to Rapture more than something she did because of her feelings of guilt.
 

EliCash

Member
Really enjoyed 1998 mode, actually found it easier than my first playthrough. I guess it's partly down to getting used to playing as Liz, but I feel like the peeping tom mods were a little too generous - with the not taking up any Eve while standing still thing. I was surprised to find that you could just go invisible and knock out the Houdini splicers.

I found myself feeling profoundly sad during the final shot, with the song as she lies there with the backdrop of Rapture, and the realization that there's no happy ending for the Elizabeth we've come to know (even if there is that possible world with Booker and Anna, from Infinite's after credit sequence, it's not the Elizabeth with the memories and experiences we've seen her through) Her saying "Booker -- I miss you" to a projection of her own imagination, then asking Booker to humor her after he reveals that he's not really there, was damn tragic.

Anyway, all in all I think they did an incredible job of playing to the players nostalgia for both Rapture and for Infinite. (and the whole thing was artistically stunning, some of the shots were fantastic)

Although, going about Rapture again just made me want to see more of it :( I think it was especially great having to be in Rapture as a more vulnerable character - where every encounter is potentially deadly. The stealth really suits the setting I think.
 
Despite my earlier complaints, I played through again today on easy so I could really soak the smaller details of the story in.

So, when Liz says to Booker "us DeWitts, we just can't leave well enough alone". I didn't really think about this beforehand (as I was too horrified by Liz almost getting lobotomized and then being bludgeoned to death), but I guess BaS 1 and 2 are a condensed version of her following the same path Booker did, right? Doing something shitty (selling Anna/using Sally as bait) and then atoning for it (heading to Rapture/Columbia and dying as a result).

Sorry if I sound like I missed something obvious, but this makes me feel a LITTLE better about the story. I still think all the lion/paw/Big Daddy stuff was the worst example of retconning, but the overarching similarities between the two DeWitts makes a lot more sense to me now.
 
After reading some explanations there's only two things left confusing me; what role Elizabeth actually plays in the events setting up the original Bioshock (so she is somewhat responsible for what ends up happening in the original? If so, does that make the whole Bioshock/Infinite story a loop even though closing a loop was the entire point of the events in Infinite?) and why the hell she went back to save one Little Sister. Maybe I don't get it, but it felt like a bad excuse to make her go back to Rapture more than something she did because of her feelings of guilt.

Elizabeth is the reason Atlus is able to survive and send for Jack (putting in motion the events of original Bioshock). She gives him "the ace in the hole" which is the phrase that would allow Atlus to control Jack. So she is basically solely responsible for the events of Bioshock.

And yes she does go back just for the one little sister. It's pretty thin, but she feels that Sally is suffering because of her own need for revenge against Comstock (a parallel to her father). Obviously this develops into wanting to free all the little sisters, but they just needed a reason to get Elizabeth back to Rapture without powers.
 
And yes she does go back just for the one little sister. It's pretty thin, but she feels that Sally is suffering because of her own need for revenge against Comstock (a parallel to her father). Obviously this develops into wanting to free all the little sisters, but they just needed a reason to get Elizabeth back to Rapture without powers.

I thought the idea was that when she could see through all the doors, she knew that it would lead to saving ALL the little sisters? But for the purposes of the keeping the player in the dark she isn't aware of this throughout the DLC (lost her powers post death). She asks herself why bother saving one, but comes to realises that in saving this one and even helping the bad guys, it will lead to the ultimate demise of the bad guys and save every little sister. I think the lutece quote about caring more about your part or the play more is relevant here. She gives up her part for the good of the play.

This was my interpretation anyway.
 
I thought the idea was that when she could see through all the doors, she knew that it would lead to saving ALL the little sisters? But for the purposes of the keeping the player in the dark she isn't aware of this throughout the DLC (lost her powers post death). She asks herself why bother saving one, but comes to realises that in saving this one and even helping the bad guys, it will lead to the ultimate demise of the bad guys and save every little sister. I think the lutece quote about caring more about your part or the play more is relevant here. She gives up her part for the good of the play.

This was my interpretation anyway.
Yeah that's what I meant, the all powerful version of her knew, but as you said, player Elizabeth is kept in the dark. So when we first see her in Paris her focus is only on Sally, but dead Elizabeth knew all along.
 
I don't think so. I felt she was about to in BaS 2 when she's rambling about Booker at one point and she says something like "you were my... (pause) My only friend.".

Man, that was quite depressing. :-(

~~~~~~~~~~

Also the ending with Jack would have been more poignant if he was not just a cipher for the player.. but then I guess the impact of "would you kindly" might have been lost. Still, he could have been voiced, is all.
 
Despite having some issues with the way Liz's arc ended and some apparent plot holes overall this was a great love letter to Bioshock fans and one of the best pieces of dlc I've ever played.
Both episodes combined have the length of you average shooter campaign these days and it cost 20 euros (and there's also CitC included).
There were so many great little details, references and fan service. The whole thing is friggin' gorgeous, they really nailed the gameplay in the final episode, the voice acting was tremendous.
I feel that some (legitimate) issues with the story are making this thread overall seem more negative than it should be.
I look back at the whole Bioshock saga and as a whole it's one of my favorite memories in gaming and I started on the Commodore 64.
 

Tomodachi

Member
Could be a depiction of River Styx maybe?
Visually it could be a reference to Styx, yeah, but I think the dead bodies are there reflecting Elizabeth's state of mind, just like when Paris turns to shit when the guilt starts rising.
And yeah, I think they are all Elizabeth corpses. She says something like "I felt what every single Elizabeth felt in every single dimension Booker, I lost a pinky but she lost everything" at the beginning of Episode 2.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Visually it could be a reference to Styx, yeah, but I think the dead bodies are there reflecting Elizabeth's state of mind, just like when Paris turns to shit when the guilt starts rising.
And yeah, I think they are all Elizabeth corpses. She says something like "I felt what every single Elizabeth felt in every single dimension Booker, I lost a pinky but she lost everything" at the beginning of Episode 2.

Odd they don't look anything like her then.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
My first thought was that they were the passengers of Jack's plane but that's probably not it.

My first thought was that they were the passengers of Jack's plane but that's probably not it.

I'm not sure there's any way to take it as actually happening (even though the boat ride is similar to the one that did happen in Infinite.) It's allegorical at best.

Speaking of which, doesn't it seem odd that the Leuteces are involved at all? I guess it's info-plot-dump territory, but you'd think that the boat ride stuff is unnecessary for Elizabeth (not to mention I doubt they were taking a rowboat across the whole North Atlantic…)

Also, can someone explain the rules for Elizabeth's loss of omniscience applying to the twins? Because if returning to the universe where you were killed makes you mortal, how can they run around in the Infinite campaign willy-nilly in the universe (or universes) where they were killed?
 
I'm not sure there's any way to take it as actually happening (even though the boat ride is similar to the one that did happen in Infinite.) It's allegorical at best.

Speaking of which, doesn't it seem odd that the Leuteces are involved at all? I guess it's info-plot-dump territory, but you'd think that the boat ride stuff is unnecessary for Elizabeth (not to mention I doubt they were taking a rowboat across the whole North Atlantic…)

Also, can someone explain the rules for Elizabeth's loss of omniscience applying to the twins? Because if returning to the universe where you were killed makes you mortal, how can they run around in the Infinite campaign willy-nilly in the universe (or universes) where they were killed?

in infinite only booker was killed in one of the alternate versions,eli was very much alive and captured by comstock.
only thing that is not answered is why the Eli in BaS1 would not be foresee her own demise.
 

abrack08

Member
in infinite only booker was killed in one of the alternate versions,eli was very much alive and captured by comstock.
only thing that is not answered is why the Eli in BaS1 would not be foresee her own demise.

Why do you assume she didn't? Omniscient-Elizabeth could see all the possible futures, and that's the one she chose; maybe that was the only future that resulted in every Little Sister being saved and she felt that was worth her life. Since we don't have the power to see what she saw, we just have to trust she made the right decision.

And if you want to argue she could have saved them and lived too (which we have no way of knowing), maybe she chose to die because she felt guilty over the way she used Sally
 
Despite having some issues with the way Liz's arc ended and some apparent plot holes overall this was a great love letter to Bioshock fans and one of the best pieces of dlc I've ever played...

...I feel that some (legitimate) issues with the story are making this thread overall seem more negative than it should be.
I look back at the whole Bioshock saga and as a whole it's one of my favorite memories in gaming...

I would agree with this. I'll dissect and rip apart every single aspect of this story, and it's hard not to come off as extremely critical in doing so. I did really like the whole Burial at Sea campaign though. Everything from the art to the combat was new and fresh and yet just as polished as the main game; it was definitely worth playing and a fun experience. I'll give all of Irrational credit for that.

My only real issue with it is that it often feels like it's valuing emotion over logic. It's clearly an attempt to be a love letter to the fans but what they seem to have missed is that the main reason a lot of people are a fan of these games is because of their extremely tight, well developed and virtually plot-holeless stories. By attempting to add in some interesting fan service they actually messed up what I, as a fan, most wanted to see. Outside of some annoying retcons in Bioshock 2 I don't think a Bioshock story has ever been this flawed, so it does taint the whole series in a way.

Still, overall this is easily one of my favorite franchises ever. If TakeTwo ever makes another one I'll still probably pick it up despite the whole universe becoming a bit of a mess now. It provided enough thought-provoking material and closure to at least keep me that satisfied.
 
Why do you assume she didn't? Omniscient-Elizabeth could see all the possible futures, and that's the one she chose; maybe that was the only future that resulted in every Little Sister being saved and she felt that was worth her life. Since we don't have the power to see what she saw, we just have to trust she made the right decision.

BaS2 played out like amnesia,u know what needs to be done,but in order to do the right thing,u must forget what needs to be done.

the opening scene from BaS2 where she is confronted by Big daddy it felt like she did not know what was going to happen and had made a mistake.
 

abrack08

Member
BaS2 played out like amnesia,u know what needs to be done,but in order to do the right thing,u must forget what needs to be done.

the opening scene from BaS2 where she is confronted by Big daddy it felt like she did not know what was going to happen and had made a mistake.

Ah I forgot about that scene. I only saw it the one time so I could be off base, but still, you can know and accept that you're going to die because of the plan you set in motion and still be terrified when a Big Daddy attacks you. I can't remember if she says or does anything that specifically shows she didn't know that was going to happen.
 
Ah I forgot about that scene. I only saw it the one time so I could be off base, but still, you can know and accept that you're going to die because of the plan you set in motion and still be terrified when a Big Daddy attacks you. I can't remember if she says or does anything that specifically shows she didn't know that was going to happen.

don't remember the dialogs,but she was kind of trying to defend her self,reason with him.asking him to stop.so it felt that she was unaware of this event.
 

Fuchsdh

Member
in infinite only booker was killed in one of the alternate versions,eli was very much alive and captured by comstock.
only thing that is not answered is why the Eli in BaS1 would not be foresee her own demise.
You're missing my point. I'm asking how the Leuteces in the campaign can be omniscient ghosts in the universes where they were killed, unless the explanation is "they just got scattered to the multiverse winds, they didn't really die".
 

Salamando

Member
The more I try and think about Burial at Sea, the more confused I get about it.

I thought Infinite established that for every choice or random event, a universe is created for each of the potential outcomes. Hence why we had to drown Booker right as he would've became Comstock. But in Burial, we kill Comstock after he'd been in Rapture for years, having creating an infinite number of Comstock-in-Rapture timelines.

And then there's the implications of branching on Sally's rescue. While Elizabeth's actions do create a path where Sally is rescued, there'd be infinite paths where she wasn't. Maybe Jack decided to harvest little sisters that playthrough or something.
 

Guri

Member
Could someone explain to me the connection of Liz being in the plan with Jack? I thought she was there to make sure he was going to crash there. Also, was he shooting her?
 

Fuchsdh

Member
Could someone explain to me the connection of Liz being in the plan with Jack? I thought she was there to make sure he was going to crash there. Also, was he shooting her?

Liz isn't physically in the plane. It's just an embellished way of showing that she knows what's going to happen and spelling it out for people who don't know the story of Bioshock.
 
Could someone explain to me the connection of Liz being in the plan with Jack? I thought she was there to make sure he was going to crash there. Also, was he shooting her?

I'm not actually sure that sequence makes any sense, assuming a standard interpretation of space-time casuality (which obviously is not necessarily true with these games, also I think I just wanted to say "assuming a standard interpretation of space-time casuality"). By the time that plane sequence occurs, both versions of Elizabeth that show up in Rapture are dead. My assumption is that either the plane is one of the "doors" she sees into when she's still transdimensional Elizabeth, or else it's some sort of latent premonition about how the words "Would You Kindly" would affect the world of Rapture later on. Or maybe a bit of both, since she initially sees herself in the mirror after Atlus captures her (and I think after she gets drugged and is knocked out for two weeks).

I've been thinking more about Elizabeth choosing to collapse herself to return to a single reality and save one/all of the Little Sisters. I think the big question I still want answered is why this particular reality? Is it really just that she put Sally in harm's way to fulfill her pact against Comstock and feels guilty? Because it still feels like a lot to give up just for that. And even if it's to rescue all the Little Sisters, that somehow doesn't feel like enough either; surely there are plenty of other ways Elizabeth could make the multiverse a better place, erase injustice in other places and times, without having to collapse herself and render herself useless for that task.

More importantly, if she really is omniscient and has some degree of power over how events unfold in various realities, why doesn't she simply find a way to avoid dying in Rapture the first time? The only thing that makes sense to me is that when she originally crafted her plan, keeping that one Elizabeth alive didn't matter (which implies she's so beyond a corporeal presence at that point that her physical bodies in all the other universes are just tools to execute her agenda) because the only goal was to kill Comstock. But do the rules of the multiverse suggest that once she's meddled in a timeline, she can't re-meddle without collapsing herself? Is this just something we're not supposed to think about because if you look at the mechanics too hard it falls apart?

And thus we bring to a close another round of me asking big questions that will probably never be answered (or questions that have obvious answers I forgot about while playing the DLC). Tune in tomorrow?
 

Sande

Member
Gameplay was... okay. I think the enemies were a bit too omniscient, especially to sound. I'm just minding my own business and very slowly step in water puddle and everyone in 20 meter radius instantly rushes to investigate. They're also very erratic in their movement. I didn't think I'd ever get to say this as a negative thing in a stealth game but at times enemy movement is so random and sudden that it feels like broken AI and almost impossible to sneak around. This has lead to (or maybe the other way around, chicken and egg) peeping tom plasmid being insanely good. See every enemy through walls and become invisible so that even alerted enemies lose track of you at no Eve cost? Sure, why not.

I ended up playing it for the story and I liked it in the end. The stuff they added felt pretty unnecessary though in the grand scheme of things. It doesn't mean anything for Bioshock 1's story that Elizabeth "helped" Atlas or caused a Big Daddy to bond with Little Sisters. It's basically "Hey, remember anything that we didn't explain in Bioshock in great detail? Well, Elizabeth did it!" But I'm OK with that. It works in this DLC and makes its story good and memorable. The thing that I liked the most was that it made me think about Bioshock 1 again, which is by far the best Bioshock game.

That Daisy bit was totally a cop out over the complaints about the cop out of making her comparable to Comstock, wasn't it?

The more I try and think about Burial at Sea, the more confused I get about it.

I thought Infinite established that for every choice or random event, a universe is created for each of the potential outcomes. Hence why we had to drown Booker right as he would've became Comstock. But in Burial, we kill Comstock after he'd been in Rapture for years, having creating an infinite number of Comstock-in-Rapture timelines.

And then there's the implications of branching on Sally's rescue. While Elizabeth's actions do create a path where Sally is rescued, there'd be infinite paths where she wasn't. Maybe Jack decided to harvest little sisters that playthrough or something.
The thing is, two new universes are born only when it's convenient for the story. I kind of wish they had gone with a little more discrete and toned down approach with the whole multiverse setting. Right now it feels impossible to truly understand anything and everything just creates more plotholes and questions when you apply the infinite universe theory to it.

You are totally correct with the Sally part. Both endings of Bioshock happen in different universes. Anything else would be completely against the (shoddy) rules they've established.

In the end Infinite was a lot like Lost. You're supposed to be in it for the ride and not to nit-pick the events. I enjoyed both but they would have benefited immensely if they held up better to closer scrutiny.
 

Guri

Member
Liz isn't physically in the plane. It's just an embellished way of showing that she knows what's going to happen and spelling it out for people who don't know the story of Bioshock.

I'm not actually sure that sequence makes any sense, assuming a standard interpretation of space-time casuality (which obviously is not necessarily true with these games, also I think I just wanted to say "assuming a standard interpretation of space-time casuality"). By the time that plane sequence occurs, both versions of Elizabeth that show up in Rapture are dead. My assumption is that either the plane is one of the "doors" she sees into when she's still transdimensional Elizabeth, or else it's some sort of latent premonition about how the words "Would You Kindly" would affect the world of Rapture later on. Or maybe a bit of both, since she initially sees herself in the mirror after Atlus captures her (and I think after she gets drugged and is knocked out for two weeks).

I think it makes sense that it's one way to do the narrative. As a premonition of the events happening there.
 

Markitron

Is currently staging a hunger strike outside Gearbox HQ while trying to hate them to death
Why was Atlas an Aussie-guy at first and then he was Fontaine? I thought Fontaine was a bald guy?


Or when did Fontaine die and Atlas overtook his identity? Wasn't somewhere in Bioshock 1?



What, when did this happen?

That's a pretty strong Dublin accent. It sounds nothing like an Australian accent
 
You're missing my point. I'm asking how the Leuteces in the campaign can be omniscient ghosts in the universes where they were killed, unless the explanation is "they just got scattered to the multiverse winds, they didn't really die".

my theory abt Leuteces were that they gained their powers after comstock killed them while they were in the tear.so i don't think they had the powers before,but knowledge of multiverse yes they did. it kind of explains how eli got her powers,her body was tore between to universe and that kind of gave her the powers.
 
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