Kojima has no concept of economy. The plot in this game is somewhat complex - as time travel inevitably always is - but it is still relatively concise and streamlines most things you'd find in other similar stories.
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Bioshock Infinite | Official Spoiler Thread |
- Thread starter BruceLeeRoy
- Start date
Kojima has no concept of economy. The plot in this game is somewhat complex - as time travel inevitably always is - but it is still relatively concise and streamlines most things you'd find in other similar stories.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Was it really an accident, though?
If Comstock has knowledge of how Liz comes into her powers because of what he saw through the tears on how to get Anna from a Booker in the first place, it's definitely plausible that he either had her arranged to lose her finger on purpose.
There's also the possibility that the nature of the way the two universes intertwine due to the tear machine led to Liz losing her finger to be a certainty, rather than a variable.
Her being tested upon was to create the Siphon and drain her powers to stop her from getting out of control before she was fully malleable due to the research that was being done to control her (i.e. the pain association implant)
GoddyofAus
Banned
Down the rabbit hole, PT.
SlasherJPC
Banned
I'd say its too close to say it wasn't done on purpose...I mean what is the odds?
The Xtortionist
Member
Drowning Booker creates a paradox.
Booker accepts baptism->Liz drowns him->Booker is dead so no Bioshock Infinite->Liz doesn't exist to drown him->etc...
As a paradox, this scenario is obliterated by nature so the only remaining timelines are where Booker refuses baptism. These timelines don't involve any tampering with spacetime and everyone lives happily ever after.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Bro Kojima wishes he could write something like this. Its not even that complicated its just that there is a lot of detail going on that is necessary to catch to put it all together.
GoddyofAus
Banned
So same sound effect, in the exact same spot at the exact same time in the scripted sequence. There is no way that is randomized ambient sound effects.
The signs and luggage still strewn about indicate that the lockdown is in place
Huh? I'm talking about things that very clearly happen in the game that are either going unnoticed or completely ignored. Things happen in that final scene, and before that final scene that don't track. Like why Liz' choker disappears - it's implied (by way of Booker not recognizing her) that it's a different Liz. Where is his. Why do the Elizabeth's act like automatons? Almost as though a command is being disseminated down the line.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/92324/neogaf/8870_2013-03-27_00047.png
"Are you SURE you want to do this Booker"?
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/92324/neogaf/8870_2013-03-27_00048.png
"This isn't the same place Booker"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlDz0wlSVkA#t=13m15s
Pay attention to what Booker says. So if your Elizabeth didn't come through the final portal. Who, or what, the fuck is the one that drowns him at the end. Not to mention how very purposefully the bandage on his hand disappears towards the end of the game, even though he has it almost completely up until the ending sequence.
https://dl.dropbox.com/u/92324/neogaf/8870_2013-03-31_00003.png
This is the last place he retains the bandage.
Some Funky stuff happens. My point is there are serious questions hanging in the air still. Things that will change the meaning of the entire game.
Team Klimt
Member
The difference is Kojima would have a 60 minute cinematic trying to explain it to you. Irrational keeps explanation to a minimum and lets the internet do it's thing. God bless 'em.
Voice of Reason
Banned
Compare the ending of MGS4 and the ending of Bioshock Infinite.
One is a clever tieup of concepts and ideas throughout the game, along with a clever twist that doesn't last more than 20 minutes.
The other is a 30+ minute info dump that only relies on your familiarity and love of the characters to keep you interested.
Don't compare Levine to Kojima when it comes to things like this.
See my edited post, the sound recurs in the same video at 12:10.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
Found it.
The twists in Infinite actually makes sense, though, while never losing sight of the intimate tale of redemption it's telling. It's gracefully executed, with crisp editing, tasteful restraint, and not a single moment feeling bloated.
Kojima, meanwhile... Well... One word: "Drebin." The semi-regular PowerPoint presentations in MGS4 were borderline maddening.
And I say this as someone who teared up during the Big Boss scene at the end of MGS4. (After his PowerPoint presentations, I mean.)
With Kojima, it feels like he makes up shit as he goes along, and occasionally says something profound or paints an interesting picture. With Levine and Infinite, it's one carefully crafted clockwork construct that works backwards and forwards and inside and out, from start to finish.
They're not even comparable.
SpacePirate Ridley
Member
What an amazing thread!
BTW You can read that one of the names of this image is Saltonstall:
Saltonstall was one of the choices to be elected for Columbia in the first gameplay video of the game.
So he was in the that version of Columbia and killed in the Vox Populi rebellion, but we never see him in the final game. Maybe part of the DLC?
BTW You can read that one of the names of this image is Saltonstall:
Saltonstall was one of the choices to be elected for Columbia in the first gameplay video of the game.
In that gameplay video, before he turns crazy, theres a tear in his columbia pin and transforms into one of the symbol of the communist party. That was also the first indication of travel through space and time we saw of the game.
So he was in the that version of Columbia and killed in the Vox Populi rebellion, but we never see him in the final game. Maybe part of the DLC?
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
Well, one explanation is that there are other bookers in the multiverse who do not even go to the baptism, but that seems rather irrelevant to the nature of the game to be included such a way in the post-credit scene.
The nature of the paradox argument is that by ever having the choice to accept the baptism, Booker eventually is killed by Liz before the choice can actually be made in order to prevent Comstock from ever happening, which leads to old Liz destroying the world in fire Noah's ark style.
But as soon as Booker dies before the choice is ever made (the when is important), Liz as we know her, with her Tear abilities, ceases to exist. This happens because Liz only exists due to Comstock taking her, which was what led to her ability to create tears and eventually kill Booker before the choice is made.
But if she ceases to exist before Booker actually makes a choice, which is necessary for her to exist to drown him, how could she have ever killed Booker in the first place before the choice was made?
Thus, Booker ever accepting the baptism and creating Comstock will inevitably lead to the whole chain series of events of Infinite, which in the end, creates a paradoxical event that immediately 'rights' itself by removing the possibility from the universe.
Now, if Booker NEVER accepts the baptism, it's impossible for him to become Comstock. And since any Booker ever accepting the baptism will (as we understand it) always lead to the Comstock/Liz paradox, which erases itself, Booker refusing the baptism becomes the only remaining variable which is possible for the universe to accept and for time to continue. In essence, refusing becomes a constant of the universe, instead of a variable, hence the post-credits scene's existence.
GoddyofAus
Banned
I find it interesting that in the old demo, he's bald, but in Infinite, his full head of hair has been scalped off.
Comstock never wanted her to have powers. All he wanted was a blood heir. The rest is the kind of freak accident that happens when you decided to have kids.
The Xtortionist
Member
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Yup. Fuck it, I say confirm this sucker!
Haunted
Member
As far as writers go, Kojima isn't even in the same universe as Levine.
You can dislike Infinite's story as much as you like, but putting it on the same level as the shit Kojima produces is just an insult.
edit: also, I can't be the only one that was often reminded of Singularity during the middle parts (but Infinite separates and elevates itself with the more complex multiverse stuff towards the end, that distinction has to be made).
GoddyofAus
Banned
Constants and variables
Fucking genius.
While Levine went way overboard with mixing time travel and alternative universe and every trope associated with it, he at least didn't pretend to be a terrible b-movie director.
I think the second one is right - Comstocks vision doesn't have to include the exact means for how his daughter will reign fire from Columbia, just that he's seen it happen and he can't have one in his reality. The finger cut to me was a heat of the moment accident that also happens to set everything else in motion, even if the science behind why isn't quite understood. Catches Comstock and the Luteces by surprise, but he realizes she can be contained and used to further their goals.
Something I noticed watching these videos, not sure if it's an intended reference or coincidence or whatever:
In Bioshock, Fitzpatrick is killed with the silhouettes of girls with scissors behind him
In Infinite, Fitzroy is killed by Elizabeth stabbing her with scissors from behind.
GoddyofAus
Banned
....You motherfucker.
I WANTED TO GET SOME SLEEP TONIGHT! Now I'll be glued to this fucking thread.
/jksplzdontbanme
The Xtortionist
Member
Woah.
Something similar: The reveal trailer for Infinite begins with Booker being drowned. The final game ends with Booker being drowned.
Thank you. This did it.
We have to go deeper.
PowderedToast
Junior Member
i wasn't arguing kojima was better, rather hinting at a possible double standard here. to me, both are bad. infinites plot is excessively convoluted to a fault. when someone feels the need to draw up a diagram to explain the timelines, somethings gone wrong.
but i will bow out, i recognise that i'm in the lions den.
But why is her losing a finger the sole attribution to her powers? The luteces are able to travel among alternate universes just fine through simply understanding their studies and Quantum Mechanics. Why can't the same be applied to Elizabeth? I really just feel the bit of her losing her finger was there to just drive home to players that "hey, Anna and Elizabeth are the same person."
MvmntInGrn
Member
Wow I just went back and watched this. The game certaintly did change. The city uses a different technology to float in the final game right? Something female Lutece invented I think?
The Xtortionist
Member
The universe goes crazy when parts of the same person exist in two separate timelines, giving that person powers.
The Luteces got their powers from their quantum machine exploding next to them.
BruceLeeRoy
Banned
APZonerunner
Member
The Lucete duo were able to get extremely limited travel with the use of very draining technology. Worse, dangerous technology - it left Comstock sterile, remember. After Fink sabotaged their machinery on Comstock's orders, when it malfunctioned it didn't kill them but instead scattered them into a kind of zero-space, essentially making them sort of time-gods who could travel anywhere but not actually change anything directly. As such, they used Booker to right their own wrongs, for they couldn't.
Elizabeth has her finger in a different world to where she is, and the universe sort of rejects that idea. There's an audio log where Lutece basically says "It seems the universe does not like its peas with its porridge," - and that's the gist of it.
The luteces can only do what they do because their bodies are scattered across dimensions because comstock tried to kill them with the machine, they could not travel like they do before the accident, they were essentially like BOoker
Tokubetsu
Member
Because she's doing it with her mind essentially. Her power is innate. The Lutece's did it with machines and science only until they were "killed" and scattered thanks to Fink's sabotage. If we don't go with the pinky theory there is literally no othe valid explanation other than "well i guess she's special or something."
Also, Dr. Lutece pretty much confirms this theory with her audio message about the universe not liking peas in it's porridge.
Metroidvania
People called Romanes they go the house?
The Luteces can travel using the tear machine, but their voxophones and presence in game shows that they only became truly able to travel through the multiverse to watch/guide multiple Bookers came after their atoms were spread throughout the multiverse when Fink wrecked the machine when they were using it.
Traveling utilizing the tear machine is very different from being able to open tears up without it, as the Luteces do in the end-sequence when bringing you to get Liz, or what Liz is seen to do.
Alternatively, the finger could just be a "hey look" moment, and Liz's finger being cut by the Tear Machine's 'tearing' field could also be a reason that she has the abilities, as do the Luteces.
As the female Lutece says in her voxophone, it's not a certainty that Liz's finger is the only possible reason, just a very likely one.
Haunted
Member
What's up with the Barbershop quartet at the beginning singing a song from the 1960s? Reminded me of Battlestar Galactica's All Along the Watchtower bits.
That said, for a story involving time travel and multiverses, it's a fairly straightforward tale with a finite ending and few holes. Same as with Inception, I think people are just a bit overwhelmed with the amount of information presented - it's actually not all that complicated once you wrap your head around a couple key concepts.
Well, but they're not just "both bad". You can call Infinite bad all you like, but don't put Kojima and Levine on the same level. Kojima is an infinitely worse writer. The differentiation is important.
That said, for a story involving time travel and multiverses, it's a fairly straightforward tale with a finite ending and few holes. Same as with Inception, I think people are just a bit overwhelmed with the amount of information presented - it's actually not all that complicated once you wrap your head around a couple key concepts.
N
Noray
Unconfirmed Member
Two questions I haven't had answered satisfactorially yet, then I can let it go:
1) Why do we see multiple Bookers and Elizabeths in the sea of lighthouses? Is it just the game's shorthand for illustrating the multiverse thing or are we to make more of it? If our Elizabeth is the only one to break the siphon (a reasonable assumption), she'd also be the only one in the sea of lighthouses.
2) Why doesn't she wear the medallion anymore in the final scene? Booker says "You're not... who are you?" when multiple Liz's start entering the scene, but this could be just confusion.
1) Why do we see multiple Bookers and Elizabeths in the sea of lighthouses? Is it just the game's shorthand for illustrating the multiverse thing or are we to make more of it? If our Elizabeth is the only one to break the siphon (a reasonable assumption), she'd also be the only one in the sea of lighthouses.
2) Why doesn't she wear the medallion anymore in the final scene? Booker says "You're not... who are you?" when multiple Liz's start entering the scene, but this could be just confusion.
The Xtortionist
Member
The musician Albert Fink used the Luteces' quantum machine to steal music from future timelines.
Umm, the Luteces are traveling among multiple universes just fine because they were killed within their machine and they basically broke apart at the molecular level across an infinite amount of realities.
Dynamite Ringo Matsuri
Member
I kept saying that after I had completed the game. Kojima could never convey such a complicated story in such an economical fashion
I love coming into the analysis thread to come across something I had missed or never considered, so much careful thought went into this game, I just love it
bodyofanamerican
Member
Time to check out Fort Frolic on the copy of Bio1 on my PS3 disc.
Yeah, the source of the Luteces' power was a simple lab "accident". Same kind of thing that gave birth to the Hulk or Dr. Manhattan.
The finger thing, even in-universe, it's just a theory. The honest answer is no one really knows why Elizabeth has powers. My theory has more to do with her simple existence in that universe. The game makes it apparent that one entity entering another universe causes a superposition of the new universe's version of that entity onto the visiting entity...causing nosebleeds and such. Elizabeth has no counterpart. She has a kind of quantum "exists and doesn't exist" state that tears the universe up.
If the bolded were true (which I've thought about before), how do the Luteces kill the lighthouse keeper?
GoddyofAus
Banned
The second one I can't answer, however there is a logical fallacy in your first question. WHY is it reasonable to assume that "our" Liz is the only one to be freed from the siphon? We're talking about Infinite Possibilities.