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[corporate cheerleader]

And your post doesn't even respond to my point made about the heavily vision impaired.

Not trying to be a dick, but are those people you're talking about able to play games?

 

[Wallach]

I notice that people aren't disputing the suggestion that making the OP for an OT a love-letter to the game (or developer, that Uncharted 3 thread title is embarrassing) creates an echo-chamber effect which has a negative effect on discussion in the thread.

The same thing happens to "joke" OTs like Dragon Age 2. They both need to go away.

 

[notworksafe]

Not trying to be a dick, but are those people you're talking about able to play games?

Yes, actually. Quite well.

 

[corporate cheerleader]

Yes, actually. Quite well.

Just wanted to make sure.

 

[notworksafe]

Just wanted to make sure.

Valid question. Glad I could help.

 

[Irish]

Different people need different amounts of information. The ACR thread appears to be written exclusively for die-hard fans of the series. People who just need a few key pieces of information, or want some quick gaffer impressions about the game are going to get a lot less out of the OP. I feel that the latter composes the majority of people who browse GAF.

The first five posts after the table of contents are for them then (posts #2-6, with 2 being versions available for purchase, 3 being SP content, 4 being MP content, 5 being media, and 6 being reviews). Posts #8-11 are refreshers for events that are directly continued in this game.

For impressions, those never appear earlier than 10 or so pages in for the hotly anticipated games.

I don't know. I thought it was all very well organized. People can come right in and get the information they need and then stop reading once they have what they want.

 

[Sciz]

The first five posts after the table of contents are for them then (posts #2-6, with 2 being versions available for purchase, 3 being SP content, 4 being MP content, 5 being media, and 6 being reviews). Posts #8-11 are refreshers for events that are directly continued in this game.

I've said it a couple times now, but as someone who knows effectively nothing about the AC series, the AC:R OT tells me relatively little that I actually want to know. I got more out of watching a single Youtube video of the gameplay than I did from reading the thread.

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

The first five posts after the table of contents are for them then (posts #2-6, with 2 being versions available for purchase, 3 being SP content, 4 being MP content, 5 being media, and 6 being reviews). Posts #8-11 are refreshers for events that are directly continued in this game.

For impressions, those never appear earlier than 10 or so pages in for the hotly anticipated games.

I don't know. I thought it was all very well organized. People can come right in and get the information they need and then stop reading once they have what they want.

But that's the thing, key information is succint and obvious, not spread out over five posts with fluff in between. As a person with no prior knowledge in the AC franchise I have no idea what the game is even about just by skimming through the first few posts in that thread (seriously, I've never played AC and I don't know what the deal with ACR is).

 

[Irish]

I understand that, but, at the same time, the ending of a trilogy really isn't the best place to be jumping into a series. If you wanted to know how the game played, a look at the trailers was where you would go to (or just gameplay videos of the previous three games).

 

[Angry Fork]

Different people need different amounts of information. The ACR thread appears to be written exclusively for die-hard fans of the series. People who just need a few key pieces of information, or want some quick gaffer impressions about the game are going to get a lot less out of the OP. I feel that the latter composes the majority of people who browse GAF.

You can google small bits of info and get that within seconds.

OP's are always for die hard fans, why wouldn't they be?

 

[Steve Youngblood]

You can google small bits of info and get that within seconds.

OP's are always for die hard fans, why wouldn't they be?

Is there some reason why the OT can't attempt to cater to different audiences with varied levels of interest and experience simultaneously?

 

[Boss Doggie]

You can google small bits of info and get that within seconds.

OP's are always for die hard fans, why wouldn't they be?

Not really - it should also be inviting to people curious to the game.

A lot of well-done OTs are even capable of convincing a person to buy it.

 

[LiK]

I don't mind info even if it's too much but could OT makers calm down with the giant images? I don't need a wall of text in image form. If it takes a while to load on my PC, then maybe it'll take even longer to load on my phone.

 

[echoshifting]

You can google small bits of info and get that within seconds.

OP's are always for die hard fans, why wouldn't they be?

Don't the die hard fans already know most of that information?

 

[Cosmo Clock 21]

You can google small bits of info and get that within seconds.

OP's are always for die hard fans, why wouldn't they be?

I could google it, but why would I when I could just read the OT?

Or at least that's what I'd like to do. The SM3DL OT is cool like that cause it has exactly the information I'm looking for: release dates, general overview of gameplay, and gaffer impressions. Nothing more.

It makes me wonder why people even try to cram rich text formatting and images into an OP when a few simply hosted HTML files would give them more flexibility in terms of formatting and size limits.

 

[Hari Seldon]

I also agree with this thread. The Assassin's Creed OT is fucking terrible. Same with the BF3 one. I definitely prefer a concise OT with the most updated information (patches, controversies, etc.) in front.

 

[Volcynika]

You can google small bits of info and get that within seconds.

OP's are always for die hard fans, why wouldn't they be?

Uh, no?

 

[Angry Fork]

Is there some reason why the OT can't attempt to cater to different audiences with varied levels of interest and experience simultaneously?

Because we're on neogaf and I'd surmise most people who post on here regularly are not casuals or have no clue what Assassins Creed is.

And like others have said all the basic info you need to know is still in the beginning of the OP like any other. The only difference is there's tons of optional info after you can read. If you don't want to you can just scroll down/go to page 2.

There's literally no reason to be against long OP's except if you're afraid of mouse scrolling or something (which is avoidable since all the basic info is at the beginning and OP's aren't on every page).

Don't the die hard fans already know most of that information?

Assassins Creed's story in particular is very confusing and hard to remember. There are lots of characters involved and people don't feel like checking the AC wiki to read up on all of that when this OP has it nicely organized in one spot.

I could google it, but why would I when I could just read the OT?

Or at least that's what I'd like to do. The SM3DL OT is cool like that cause it has exactly the information I'm looking for: release dates, general overview of gameplay, and gaffer impressions. Nothing more.

It makes me wonder why people even try to cram rich text formatting and images into an OP when a few simply hosted HTML files would give them more flexibility in terms of formatting and size limits.

I see those kinds of OP's as cheap, lazy and boring. If I'm really hyped for a game then it's like it's own event. MGS4 had a HUGE OP and everyone was hyped nobody was complaining then because it was something everyone was looking forward to. A lot of people are looking forward to Assassins Creed as well and want to catch up on everything about the series in one spot without having to click dozens of links.

 

[Steve Youngblood]

Because we're on neogaf and I'd surmise most people who post on here regularly are not casuals or have no clue what Assassins Creed is.

As far as I'm concerned, I think many arrive at faulty, binary conclusions wherein they oversimplify the diversity of the audience. I'm sure most people here have some clue in regards to what Assassins Creed is about, but that doesn't mean that everyone clicking the thread is a series veteran only interested in every last tidbit of information. Despite people acting as though NeoGAF is one giant, monolithic entity that consists of posters that all have the same background, there is more diversity than many give it credit for.

And like others have said all the basic info you need to know is still in the beginning of the OP like any other. The only difference is there's tons of optional info after you can read. If you don't want to you can just scroll down/go to page 2.

The basic info presented in the first several posts, as far as I could tell, consisted only of informing those about nuances they probably don't currently care about unless they were already pumped about the title. The first post doesn't say anything. The second just talks about the differences between the versions. The gameplay post talks about new additions, but mentions nothing in particular about what the Assassins Creed series gameplay is all about, and for that matter it reads like dry, PR copy.

There's literally no reason to be against long OP's except if you're afraid of mouse scrolling or something (which is avoidable since all the basic info is at the beginning and OP's aren't on every page).

Literally no reasons? We can agree to disagree about this, and that's groovy, but I think there are some cogent arguments presented in this thread for why these threads can be counterproductive. Again, you don't have to agree, but dismissing that there are "literally" no reasons is silly.

 

[notworksafe]

I see those kinds of OP's as cheap, lazy and boring. If I'm really hyped for a game then it's like it's own event. MGS4 had a HUGE OP and everyone was hyped nobody was complaining then because it was something everyone was looking forward to. A lot of people are looking forward to Assassins Creed as well and want to catch up on everything about the series in one spot without having to click dozens of links.

It had all info needed, trailers, images, impressions and everything else one would need. Clearly it was missing 20 more posts about every powerup and game in the Mario canon.

Like I said, the OT for different games should be expected to be different depending on story tie-ins and such, but to call an appropriate OT "boring" is a bit much.

 

[pancakesandsex]

The first five posts after the table of contents are for them then (posts #2-6, with 2 being versions available for purchase, 3 being SP content, 4 being MP content, 5 being media, and 6 being reviews). Posts #8-11 are refreshers for events that are directly continued in this game.

For impressions, those never appear earlier than 10 or so pages in for the hotly anticipated games.

I don't know. I thought it was all very well organized. People can come right in and get the information they need and then stop reading once they have what they want.

If your post on a forum needs a table of fucking contents you are doing it wrong.

 

[PjotrStroganov]

I often click on the OT to check out the releasedate of the PC version. If I can't find it after two scrolls, screw you.

Put all the important data at the top, in text. The rest of the fluff, whatever the size, can be below that.

 

[Volcynika]

It had all info needed, trailers, images, impressions and everything else one would need. Clearly it was missing 20 more posts about every powerup and game in the Mario canon.

Like I said, the OT for different games should be expected to be different depending on story tie-ins and such, but to call an appropriate OT "boring" is a bit much.

No posts full of fluff = boring!

 

[Strummerjones]

"Bloated, PR paste-bin |OT|s are a plague on these boards." The title alone reeks of exaggeration. It's hard not to enter the thread without being facetious.

My own personal dislike of them is that they are part of the revolting advertising circle jerk that permeates gaming. At every level of this hobby, be it the gaming publications to the fans themselves there is a bizarre obsession with "helping" games and developers that "deserve" to succeed - this fantasy that "we" are part of the games industry and need to do our "part". I'm not part of the games industry, I'm just a consumer (as are most of the posters here), and while I certainly hope developers who have consistently made good games continued success, I can't imagine the mentality to need to make what amounts to an advert for their next title before even playing it.

Let's not forget these are basically uncritical adverts for games that for the most part no one has even played yet. They play into the horrible need for "hype" that again permeates gaming and especially this board. People don't just want game A to be good, it has to be the best ever, and be aggrandised by gushing nonsense backed with cherry picked bullshots. Everyone desperately wants to be part of this rush to the next big thing and not be left out. A product as an event. Everyone made the right choice, well done! This also helps lead to nonsense like many of the game of the year choices on here that surely even half the people who voted for them must be cringing over barely even 6 months later (MGS4 best game of 2008? Really?).

The LOL GAME IS BAD joke OT posts are just as bad (even when a game really is awful) because they equally feed into this need for concensus that filters out reasoned opinion and just leads to mindless uncritical praise or equally unthinking "haters" real or imagined (see the awful COD vs Battlefield thread. Or don't because it's total shit).

 

[Metroid Killer]

MGS4 had a HUGE OP and everyone was hyped nobody was complaining then because it was something everyone was looking forward to.

Why are you saying this when it's not true at all. Why exactly do you think Bruceleeroy the maker of the MGS4 OT is only making 1 post OTs now? He learned his lesson, and now his OTs are so much better because of it.

 

[Puddles]

Guys, all of this can be solved with a single tweak:

Get rid of the construction yard for OTs.

Make it so thread creators have to post them in realtime the same way every other thread on the forum is posted. Sure, they can write up a draft in Wordpad or whatever, but they can't make post after post and tweak it for weeks before it goes up.

The gratuitous OPs will disappear completely.

 

[Boss Doggie]

I've always wondered where this "OT sandbox" people are talking about. Anyone minding a link?

I mean, couldn't one view it anyway via Preview?

 

[Puddles]

I've always wondered where this "OT sandbox" people are talking about. Anyone minding a link?

I mean, couldn't one view it anyway via Preview?

Pretty sure you can only view it if an admin gives your account permission.

This is how you get official threads where the OP is 36 posts long. Because otherwise, someone would definitely post in that thread for the combo-breaker.

 

[Christine]

Guys, all of this can be solved with a single tweak:

Get rid of the construction yard for OTs.

Make it so thread creators have to post them in realtime the same way every other thread on the forum is posted. Sure, they can write up a draft in Wordpad or whatever, but they can't make post after post and tweak it for weeks before it goes up.

The gratuitous OPs will disappear completely.

Survey says:

XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX
XXXXXX           XXXXXX
XXX XXX         XXX XXX
XXX  XXX       XXX  XXX
XXX   XXX     XXX   XXX
XXX    XXX   XXX    XXX
XXX     XXX XXX     XXX
XXX      XXXXX      XXX
XXX       XXX       XXX
XXX      XXXXX      XXX
XXX     XXX XXX     XXX
XXX    XXX   XXX    XXX
XXX   XXX     XXX   XXX
XXX  XXX       XXX  XXX
XXX XXX         XXX XXX
XXXXXX           XXXXXX
XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX

There are lots of tools with which to construct massive BBCode posts.

http://www.tinymce.com/tryit/bbcode.php

 

[Metroid Killer]

I've always wondered where this "OT sandbox" people are talking about. Anyone minding a link?

I mean, couldn't one view it anyway via Preview?

When contacting a mod calling dibs on an OT you'll recieve a link to the sandbox, where mods and official devs will give your OT criticism and offer graphical help (and official artwork from the devs).

 

[Puddles]

Right, they could still use tools, but you wouldn't get 36 post OPs because someone would break up the initial string of posts. With a one post per minute limit, it would take 36 minutes. The longest OP that would be practical would be 2-3 posts.

Eliminating the sandbox eliminates the issue entirely.

 

[Christine]

Right, they could still use tools, but you wouldn't get 36 post OPs because someone would break up the initial string of posts. With a one post per minute limit, it would take 36 minutes. The longest OP that would be practical would be 2-3 posts.

Eliminating the sandbox eliminates the issue entirely.

If I recall correctly, the mega-OPs were going on before the sandbox was available. The OP would race to get it all up ASAP, usually with a note asking people not to post and by using the method of making empty placeholder posts to populate with text later.

Someone would invariably break the combo and there would be much bitching. It's not really an improvement over the current scenario.

 

[Puddles]

Well, shit.

Guess the only solution is to ask thread creators to use discretion.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

The same thing happens to "joke" OTs like Dragon Age 2. They both need to go away.

Where do I sign? Honestly, the only reason I left them out was because they happen so much less often.

Obviously I'm not exactly someone who goes out of his way to avoid an argument, but I like to think that there are threads for contention and debate, and threads for discussion, if that makes sense. The latter is more about sharing opinions and discussing them without looking for a "right" answer, whereas a thread with a provocative or fawning OP is just looking for a fight around here.

 

[Metroid Killer]

Haha wtf I thought I was trolling along with puddles... but there actually exsists such a sandbox?

 

[Wallach]

Where do I sign? Honestly, the only reason I left them out was because they happen so much less often.

Obviously I'm not exactly someone who goes out of his way to avoid an argument, but I like to think that there are threads for contention and debate, and threads for discussion, if that makes sense. The latter is more about sharing opinions and discussing them without looking for a "right" answer, whereas a thread with a provocative or fawning OP is just looking for a fight around here.

I only mentioned it because you were referencing the OP's argument, which vaguely supports those kinds of joke threads while at the same time admonishing the multi-post OTs for being fan wankery. Both need to be rejected if our goal is to prevent influencing discussion negatively.

 

[pakkit]

The same thing happens to "joke" OTs like Dragon Age 2. They both need to go away.

Certainly. It was a funny joke, but it wasn't fit for an OT.

NeoGAF is a pretty heavily modded forum (although the amount of active mods seems to have shifted a lot recently), and if we used that nice little oligarchy of enforcers to place some more guided rules regarding OTs and discussions, we could get a lot more directed, organized back and forths going.

It's not an unprecedented step either, the culling of all the official threads under an "OT" tag made organizational issues much easier within the community. And our FAQs and bannable offenses are pretty extensive compared to other forums.

Laissez-faire forums should be cast away to GameFAQs. We have younger voices, older voices, industry insiders, and journalists within our ranks, and it'd be nice if the place had even less of the fanaticism and immaturity that haunts other gaming communities. Yes, we're all videogame enthusiasts, otherwise we wouldn't have waited so long to get registered.

Keep on moving forward, what's wrong with that?

 

[Sciz]

I understand that, but, at the same time, the ending of a trilogy really isn't the best place to be jumping into a series. If you wanted to know how the game played, a look at the trailers was where you would go to (or just gameplay videos of the previous three games).

I think it's guaranteed that the developers constructed the first part of it as a tutorial for people new to the series. These aren't movies, they're games. Players can miss out on plot elements and still enjoy gameplay improvements without touching previous titles. An OT that can't accommodate newcomers is rather missing the point.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

I only mentioned it because you were referencing the OP's argument, which vaguely supports those kinds of joke threads while at the same time admonishing the multi-post OTs for being fan wankery. Both need to be rejected if our goal is to prevent influencing discussion negatively.

These kinds of decisions make me happy I don't have to make them.

I really like GAF, it's the only online community I've ever actually cared about remaining a part of and I've been involved in them for at least 15 years. The thing which drew me here initially was a stupid NPD gif but the thing which made me stay was the interesting NPD discussion and the low tolerance for trolling (this was during one of those periods when NPD threads were a graveyard by page 2).

It's similar to SA in that respect, the silliness which ends up elsewhere is actually great for attracting people, and when they arrive the strict moderation usually keeps them from causing trouble. But for that work, you have to maintain this constant balancing act between being draconian and killing the fun, and allowing too much silliness and killing the discourse. Hard decisions, it's like EviLore's Choice.

 

[jobber]

when I click on a "OT" I should just open it up and read stuff from users, not a fucking page I would see in a manual or magazine ad.

OP are becoming "(insert game's name here) for dummies" The UMvC3 thread is an example. I know where to locate the information for the game.

I don't come here to find information about video games. That's what google is for. I come to here to discuss video games. If I'm opening a "OT" about a game, it's likely that I actually have/played the game.

 

[Artadius]

GAF administration should setup a NeoGAF wiki site where insane game OT's could dump those mega projects into a wiki and then the actual topic itself could remain really short a sweet with only the most needed information and a few images.

Put a big bold link to the holy crap mother of god OT with all the wham bam thank you ma'am bells and whistles.

I dunno. Just thinking out loud here.

 

[Boss Doggie]

When contacting a mod calling dibs on an OT you'll recieve a link to the sandbox, where mods and official devs will give your OT criticism and offer graphical help (and official artwork from the devs).

So... in a way... mods are just letting the poorly done ones scott free out of "effort"?

 

[jim-jam bongs]

GAF administration should setup a NeoGAF wiki site where insane game OT's could dump those mega projects into a wiki and then the actual topic itself could remain really short a sweet with only the most needed information and a few images.

Put a big bold link to the holy crap mother of god OT with all the wham bam thank you ma'am bells and whistles.

I dunno. Just thinking out loud here.

It's not a terrible idea, but I just feel like it's pandering to the type of obsessive fanboys who are usually looked down upon on GAF. If you really want to make a masturbatory fan-site for an upcoming game go and make a fucking Angelfire account.

 

[Wallach]

These kinds of decisions make me happy I don't have to make them.

I really like GAF, it's the only online community I've ever actually cared about remaining a part of and I've been involved in them for at least 15 years. The thing which drew me here initially was a stupid NPD gif but the thing which made me stay was the interesting NPD discussion and the low tolerance for trolling (this was during one of those periods when NPD threads were a graveyard by page 2).

It's similar to SA in that respect, the silliness which ends up elsewhere is actually great for attracting people, and when they arrive the strict moderation usually keeps them from causing trouble. But for that work, you have to maintain this constant balancing act between being draconian and killing the fun, and allowing too much silliness and killing the discourse. Hard decisions, it's like EviLore's Choice.

Absolutely agree, though in this specific case it wouldn't be a very hard choice were I asked to make it.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

Absolutely agree, though in this specific case it wouldn't be a very hard choice were I asked to make it.

Oh this one is easy, the hardest one is probably what I like to call the Drinky Crow Dilemma.

 

[Reave]

Holy shit... NeoGAF hates everything.

 

[pakkit]

Oh this one is easy, the hardest one is probably what I like to call the Drinky Crow Dilemma.

He's what NeoGAF needs him to be.

He is...the Drinky Crow.

 

[NoRéN]

Holy shit... NeoGAF hates everything.

A thread hating on threads? No we need the thread about threads hating on threads.

 

[jim-jam bongs]

NeoGAF 2 minutes of Hate |OT| Fuck Goldstein

He's what NeoGAF needs him to be.

He is...the Drinky Crow.

Jokes aside though, I love Drinky because he's hilarious, but it's hard to enthusiastically argue in favour of threads like the "uncharted 3 is doooooooooooomed!" as much as I enjoy them personally.

 

[CoffeeJanitor]

My own personal dislike of them is that they are part of the revolting advertising circle jerk that permeates gaming. At every level of this hobby, be it the gaming publications to the fans themselves there is a bizarre obsession with "helping" games and developers that "deserve" to succeed - this fantasy that "we" are part of the games industry and need to do our "part". I'm not part of the games industry, I'm just a consumer (as are most of the posters here), and while I certainly hope developers who have consistently made good games continued success, I can't imagine the mentality to need to make what amounts to an advert for their next title before even playing it.

Let's not forget these are basically uncritical adverts for games that for the most part no one has even played yet. They play into the horrible need for "hype" that again permeates gaming and especially this board. People don't just want game A to be good, it has to be the best ever, and be aggrandised by gushing nonsense backed with cherry picked bullshots. Everyone desperately wants to be part of this rush to the next big thing and not be left out. A product as an event. Everyone made the right choice, well done! This also helps lead to nonsense like many of the game of the year choices on here that surely even half the people who voted for them must be cringing over barely even 6 months later (MGS4 best game of 2008? Really?).

The LOL GAME IS BAD joke OT posts are just as bad (even when a game really is awful) because they equally feed into this need for concensus that filters out reasoned opinion and just leads to mindless uncritical praise or equally unthinking "haters" real or imagined (see the awful COD vs Battlefield thread. Or don't because it's total shit).

Agreed, although I get a kick out of the joke OTs. I remember playing through HL2 and going to the old topic for it to give my impressions, which weren't positive at all. I got pounced on by a bunch of HL fanboys there. This has happened in several different threads and it really is annoying.

Also I completely agree on the bullshots thing. If a screenshot is not a gameplay shot then don't fucking post it: it doesn't represent the game at all. I hate those images that show awesome camera views of the player, as well, because you're never going to have any of those views.

Ugh I hate hype.