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Blu Ray and HD-DVD Could Both Fail
- Thread starter Stinkles
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Nerevar said:
10 years is a lifetime in the CE industry. 10 years ago few of us even used the Internet. Try comprehending what is said.
Nerevar said:
Nevermind, look at who I'm talking to -- excellent artilculation, way to make the point....
PlayStation3 cements the format, that's all it does. Nobody is going to fight against the BRD format knowing that it will be in XXX Million households within 5 years.
By way of your own convoluted argument you prove mine; if you don't believe people will pay a small premium for addition content contained in BRD, then most of these households which are likely to contain a PlayStation3 (assumption of PS2 penetration) are sure as shit not going to pay for an entirely new standard which is equivalent or inferior to one they get "for free" in PlayStation3. QED. Go jerk off.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
just to be sure on this , there is HDMI enabled and there is HDMI with CP enabled.
And they ain't the same.
(?)
that's right - but this isn't about HD-DVD vs BLuray, this is about both of them failing and DVD retaining it's place.
5 million units in the home, where only 1/2 a million have the required set isn't going to help that much is it?
Warm Machine
Member
Actually, in the newest Sound and Vision or Home Theater mag they were saying that via component a Blu-Ray/HD-DVD movie may max out at 540p 16:9. So you'll get what amounts to a better picture, by a few hundred pixels, than regular DVD right out of the box. They have to make it somewhat of an upgrade to early adopters even if they don't have HDMI in (like me).
Lord Error
Insane For Sony
I'm not sure about most TVs not having HDMI. All models sold in the last two years have it, and as the HDTV adoption accelerates, I have a feeling this issue will be largely irrelevant for most people (as in, most don't yet have HDTV but will eventually buy it over next few years)Stinkles said:
Even if that holds true, I don't think it's anything to care about. You can bet that every big, visually impressive movie will be available in HD, and that's what matters.Yusaku said:
As far as I know, HDMI = DVI + HDCPDCharlie said:
My adelphia HD-DVR has a DVI input that only accepts HDCP. The components work without it, but the DVI input requires copy protection. Now, I don't know if it is different for the BRD, but my DVI/HDMI convertor works fine with the DVR. My TV has HDMI
I think the convertors work fine with HDCP. I need one to watch TV, but I'm all set with HDMI interfaces for the PS3. How messed up is that?
Also, what about firewire? Most Mits sets have those. From what I understand the only difference between HDMI/DVI is that the sound is carried seperately on DVI, correct?
I think the convertors work fine with HDCP. I need one to watch TV, but I'm all set with HDMI interfaces for the PS3. How messed up is that?
Also, what about firewire? Most Mits sets have those. From what I understand the only difference between HDMI/DVI is that the sound is carried seperately on DVI, correct?
My buddy bought one of those 30" Sanyo sets from Walmart (The sub 600 dollar set) and it had an HDMI connection on the back. HDMI will soon be a new stardard connection. Don't see the problem. Unless you spent money on a HDTV set before standards were made. But this is the chance you take for adopting early.
V
Vennt
Unconfirmed Member
Mrbob said:
Spot on IMO.
Early adopters don't make a market, they just make the market entry less painful for the CE companies. Early adopters are free "Beta" testers, who'll pay through-the-nose for the CE companies technological experiments.
Early adopters nearly always get screwed, on price, on features, on everything, and better yet, they'll pay a premium for the honour of doing so.
So, what I can gather from this thread is:
-HDMI connections have been available on HDTVs for the past 2 years.
-The people who're screwed are the ones that bought HDTVs more than 2 years ago*.
-The people that bought HDTVs years ago probably spent a fuckload of money.
-Those people probably make a fuckload of money.
-Those people probably won't have any problem selling off their old HDTV and buying a newer HDTV, thanks to the fuckloads of money they got.
So...what's the problem again?
*if you bought a HDMI-less tv recently, then it's your own fault for being uninformed
-HDMI connections have been available on HDTVs for the past 2 years.
-The people who're screwed are the ones that bought HDTVs more than 2 years ago*.
-The people that bought HDTVs years ago probably spent a fuckload of money.
-Those people probably make a fuckload of money.
-Those people probably won't have any problem selling off their old HDTV and buying a newer HDTV, thanks to the fuckloads of money they got.
So...what's the problem again?
*if you bought a HDMI-less tv recently, then it's your own fault for being uninformed
DCharlie said:
Ok, then wouldn't you have to agree that since we're in consensus that it's basically BRD or DVD, that over the next 5 years there will be a growing movement towards HDTV? And with that grows the propoensity to save HDTV broadcasts, watch movies, etc...
While your argument is extremely valid, it's somewhat unlikely due to a number of factors IMHO.
Without unification, the prospects for both formats tanked majorly IMO. HD-DVD will fail miserably. BD will linger around only on the legs of PS3 sales, but never amount to more than LD...IMO again. I just don't see the lure of mainstreamers switching formats without a true, unified push. Oh well. PEACE.
EDIT: BD may stand a chance if Sony can push its recording ability more. They are currently doing that. It would be great to get BD video cams or BD DVRs. This is why all their research attention is on recordable media and less so the ROMs.
EDIT: BD may stand a chance if Sony can push its recording ability more. They are currently doing that. It would be great to get BD video cams or BD DVRs. This is why all their research attention is on recordable media and less so the ROMs.
DCharlie
And even i am moderately surprised
oh definitely. I don't see HD-DVD being able to get a foothold at all.
The only way i could see it is if they didn't require HDMI - and that's not there decission to take it would seem, and the movie companies aren't likely to back down on one format but not the other.
One thing i'd be interesting in seeing is what happens with the control of HDTV recorded broadcast. We've already seen the recent TiVo flagging incident, i'm just wondering if there will be a similar tech applied to all BRD Recorders?
jett said:So, what I can gather from this thread is:
-HDMI connections have been available on HDTVs for the past 2 years.
-The people who're screwed are the ones that bought HDTVs more than 2 years ago*.
-The people that bought HDTVs years ago probably spent a fuckload of money.
-Those people probably make a fuckload of money.
-Those people probably won't have any problem selling off their old HDTV and buying a newer HDTV, thanks to the fuckloads of money they got.
So...what's the problem again?
*if you bought a HDMI-less tv recently, then it's your own fault for being uninformed
HDMI hadn't become mainstream until the beginning of this year. That's 3+ years of HDTV sales in America (since 2002, a breakout year in terms of sales) where your average TV had either VGA/Component/DVI and no HDMI.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Besides PLAYSTATION 3s, BRD drives will be in Apple, Dell and HP computers in the future...which, I'm sure you know, are popular computer companies, to say the least...
Niche product?
I doubt it....
Niche product?
I doubt it....
Vince said:
Typical Vince, condescending Sony lapdog. When you get your face out of Kaz's lap, get back to me and try responding in an intelligent and respectful manner (which you seem to be entirely incapable of). My point was that regardless of PS3 penetration, until high end HDTV penetration becomes mainstream (which it isn't right now), the added resolution on the disc is useless, and consumers won't pay for it. There's a far cry from the obvious benefits moving to PS3. The idiot speak was intentional because certain Sony fans perceive the PS3 as the end-all, be-all CE device that will invariably make everyone want BRD (which is usally accompanied by a fallacious argument that PS2 made DVD popular, which is entirely untrue).
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
xabre said:
No MGS4 for you then....
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
Actually there are 7 Metal Gear games....MG, MG1, Ghost Babel, MGS, MGS2, MGS3, MGA
sonycowboy
Member
trmas said:
The quality of HD source for current HD transmissions is quite poor as of right now. HD Discovery and NFL look great, but HBO, ABC, CBS, NBC, etc, etc aren't much better than upscaled content right now, IMO. The networks are forced to do HDTV, but they aren't really forced to do it excellent. And the movie studios ARE NOT giving HBO & Showtime master quality video.
You will see a big difference when you watch Blu-Ray / HD-DVD over what is coming in over the airwaves.
Kleegamefan
K. LEE GAIDEN
sonycowboy said:
Yeah, the max bitrate for HD transmissions via Digital Cable/Satellite is 17.4mbps (IIRC), this is less than *half* of a recordable Blu-ray (36mbps) let alone the bitrate of a BRD movie (54mbps)....this is also why you do not see 1080p HD transmissions because there is not enough bandwidth....though this will change with DirecTVs new MPEG4 satellites....
Being broke for the win! Never amassed a huge collection of DVDs anyway.
At any rate, the same ol' arguments keep popping up...
Nobody is forcing you to re-buy stuff on BRD/HD-DVD...get whatever is worth the higher fidelity for you.
BRDs do NOT require caddies anymore!
Movies will *gasp* still continue to be made and released after BRD/HD-DVD come out.
At any rate, the same ol' arguments keep popping up...
Nobody is forcing you to re-buy stuff on BRD/HD-DVD...get whatever is worth the higher fidelity for you.
BRDs do NOT require caddies anymore!
Movies will *gasp* still continue to be made and released after BRD/HD-DVD come out.
Well you'd gather incorrectly.
I don't have fuckloads of money to spend 2-3k for a TV every few years. It just so happens that in January 2003, when I bought my TV, I got an unexpected $2500 bonus so it went to that TV.
The problem here is that TV manufacturer's will not leave it the fuck alone. We had a good what 50 or 60 year run with analog TV and it wasn't fucked with. Now it seems they're wanting to change standards every few years. So for all of you that think you're so damn brilliant for not jumping on the HDTV bandwagon a few years ago.... just wait. Go ahead and dish out 3 grand for your new HDMI TV and then join me in the losers club in a few years when they come up with a new standard... AND OH YES, THEY WILL COME UP WITH A NEW STANDARD, once the pirates bust HDMI. So get ready to take a seat next to me and put your "I got fucked" hat on. I promise I won't make fun of you.
DVI seems to have been pretty short lived, at least as far as HDTV's are concerned.
My Samsung Capt. Kirk has both a HDMI and DVI.
I have two HDMI outputs on my new Sony receiver. Also has 2 component video outs.
I currently have a upscaling Sony DVD player on one HDMi and a HD DVR (Warner cable) on component.
My XBox 360 will be on the other component and the PS3 will be on the other HDMI output.
Happiness awaits.
My Samsung Capt. Kirk has both a HDMI and DVI.
I have two HDMI outputs on my new Sony receiver. Also has 2 component video outs.
I currently have a upscaling Sony DVD player on one HDMi and a HD DVR (Warner cable) on component.
My XBox 360 will be on the other component and the PS3 will be on the other HDMI output.
Happiness awaits.
jett said:Just like DVD, I'm pretty sure blu-ray will start off slow. Eventually a must-have blu-ray disc(like the matrix did for DVDs) will appear and sales will skyrocket. People are going to make the change to HD movies sooner or later anyways...with HDTVs sales climbing and more HD channels appearing soon enough DVDs will start to look ugly.
You're talking about an uptake of 5 years or more. DVD players were around as early as 1996, it didn't really take off until 2000 when the Matrix DVD came out.
I'm assuming this thread is here w/ relation with PS3/Xbox360 and 3 years in the life of a console, even a successful one, is a lifetime.
I can see HD-DVD failing, due to lack of support. But both fail? I don't see how that can happen with the ravenous demand from tech geeks of HD movies. If both fails then something has to take their place, and I don't see what that is.
Either way in the end Sony is the winner for the foresight of putting Blu-Ray in the PS3. Even if people don't plan to use it as a BR movie player right away, it'll be a nice feature to have "just in case".
Either way in the end Sony is the winner for the foresight of putting Blu-Ray in the PS3. Even if people don't plan to use it as a BR movie player right away, it'll be a nice feature to have "just in case".
Mr_Furious
Member
I used to think I was an expert on this kind of crap but with how quickly and widely UMD support and success has spread (to my surprise), I can honestly say "I have no fucking clue" any more. The market is getting ever more complicated. That being said, I think Blu Ray has an advantage 
Kleegamefan said:
And how does having, using your argument, tons of BRDs on your computer translate into watching HD movies in your living room? The issue here is viewing HD quality movies through your HD TV sets in your family room, not at your computer desk. BRDs, by installed on popular computers, could push the large storage capability more than HD movies (which may stay as a niche product for videophiles)...remember Zip, Jaz, and tape drives???
Hurricane_Chris
DDK
BRD and HD-DVD have a long road ahead of them. One of the things I have worried about is remote key revocation. I haven't read up on the latest ideas put forth by the BRD and HD-DVD sides yet but If I remember correctly: AACS (HD-DVD) allowed for a device or line of devices to have their keys revoked rendering the player useless and BRD was slated to use a slightly different revocation policy that allowed for disabling the device but not being useable in a "downgraded state" (standard def) and able to have HD re-enabled (although I'm not sure of the mechanism).
What do you guys think about having your player (disabled if even for a short time) because some guy in Taiwan or Hong Kong cracked a box you purchased? How do you feel about potentially modding your machine to be region free or able to play imported games possibly disabling HD-movie playback (even if you purchased a TV with HDMI and whatnot)?
More importantly what does remote key revocation mean to the average Joe who is going to be buying these players? Is he going to understand if one night he goes in to watch a new movie on his player that won't work because his box has been cracked? Or worse yet, he goes to use an already purchased movie on his internet connected player and realizes that all movies won't play because it's been disabled ( AACS once had this feature and BRD committe was debating it when I last checked)....
The need for content protection is there...the question is should a customer who has done NOTHING at all wrong be inconvenienced by having his player not work because of a cracker or a hardwrae company that was careless in securing the box he purchased ?
What do you guys think about having your player (disabled if even for a short time) because some guy in Taiwan or Hong Kong cracked a box you purchased? How do you feel about potentially modding your machine to be region free or able to play imported games possibly disabling HD-movie playback (even if you purchased a TV with HDMI and whatnot)?
More importantly what does remote key revocation mean to the average Joe who is going to be buying these players? Is he going to understand if one night he goes in to watch a new movie on his player that won't work because his box has been cracked? Or worse yet, he goes to use an already purchased movie on his internet connected player and realizes that all movies won't play because it's been disabled ( AACS once had this feature and BRD committe was debating it when I last checked)....
The need for content protection is there...the question is should a customer who has done NOTHING at all wrong be inconvenienced by having his player not work because of a cracker or a hardwrae company that was careless in securing the box he purchased ?
Hurricane_Chris
DDK
empanada said:I'm sure some asian companies will come out with region-free HD-DVD/Bluray players that does HD component out....
I believe hat player won't be able to decode any movies or at the best have to have constant softwrae updates to stay a step ahead of key revocation if AACS and BRD (can't remember what they're calling it) get their content protection implemented properly....
Mr_Furious
Member
IIRC, only burners will be utilizing AACS. Stand alone readers will not nor will they require any kind of connection to the internet. Maybe KLeeGameFan can chime in here?
Hurricane_Chris
DDK
Mr_Furious said:
OK. I haven't kept up with the round for round action. If this is true then that's great...although it leaves me with one question:
What stops a you from straight ripping a movie once a key of a reader has been cracked or using a player from Taiwan/HK/somewhere else in Asia with some non-encrypted HD output capability and capturing that stream?
What makes it any different/more secure than DVD if they don't do this on the reader side? Once a player has been exploited couldn't you exploit it in the same way CSS was
Mr_Furious
Member
I'm not sure. Ultimately this won't deter hardcore pirates (nothing does) but it's possible it'll be just a deterrent for the "casual joes". That's just my guess though.ddksanrokumaru said:
jett said:So, what I can gather from this thread is:
-HDMI connections have been available on HDTVs for the past 2 years.
-The people who're screwed are the ones that bought HDTVs more than 2 years ago*.
-The people that bought HDTVs years ago probably spent a fuckload of money.
-Those people probably make a fuckload of money.
-Those people probably won't have any problem selling off their old HDTV and buying a newer HDTV, thanks to the fuckloads of money they got.
So...what's the problem again?
*if you bought a HDMI-less tv recently, then it's your own fault for being uninformed
HDTV's have been on the market in big box stores since the year 2000.
The problem is, there are a significant number of HDTV's without HDMI. That hurts adoption rates, and breeds contempt in consumers.
It's ill-informed to think that because someone had the money to buy an HDTV three, four, or five years ago has the disposable cash to just spring for another one at the whim of Hollywood.
TV's aren't equivalent to auto's. You just don't have the turnover in that space like you do with the auto industry.
The Faceless Master
Member
one of these days i'll buy a HDTV... like after all the dust settles, etc...
for now i'll stick with my VGA box... VD-Z3 4 Lyf3!
for now i'll stick with my VGA box... VD-Z3 4 Lyf3!
Sorry, Stinkles, I don't see how HDMI makes Blu-Ray/HD-DVD the most complicated format shift ever. The market isn't unfamiliar with there being multiple video output options to choose from which then needs to be paired with one of multiple audio output options. It hasn't hurt DVD uptake, that's for sure.
Granted, not using HDMI means not getting the most out of Blu-Ray/HD-DVD but then, I'd wonder just how many people are really getting the most out of DVD spec as well. How many people forego full 720x480 resolution and digital surround sound? Even among those who have bought HDTVs this would be an interesting survey, because perhaps they didn't bother to upgrade their several year old DVD player that doesn't support component out or proscan, for example (I actually know a couple).
Still, they get benefit out of DVD even if they don't take full advantage of it: media doesn't deteriorate anywhere near as rapidly as VHS does, no rewind, chapter selection, commentary tracks, more compact storage, etc. By the same token, even if HDMI isn't available, Blu-Ray/HD-DVD formats offer the potential for improvements over DVD for those who wish to adopt: combination of physical capacity plus the use of more advanced video compression formats allows for far more SD content to be placed on one BD/HD-DVD, more advanced application layers designed into the format for more ambitious content interaction, networkability as standard for future content updates and, specifically in the case of BD, designed for recordability from the start to be suitable as an optical disc-based DVR.
Further, it's also odd to try to portray HDMI as a weakness based on its availability in current model TVs since, if we're talking about scenarios where BD/HD-DVD is no more successful than DVD has been, it would take at least 4 years for either format to reach real mass market levels of acceptance (because that's about how long it took DVD to really gain hold). Are we still going to be worried that there aren't enough HDTVs rigged with HDMI by then?
As for early adopters like myself, Vennt said it best with MrBob's assist.
And none of this is meant as an endorsement for an A/V connection that exists primarily for DRM purposes.
Granted, not using HDMI means not getting the most out of Blu-Ray/HD-DVD but then, I'd wonder just how many people are really getting the most out of DVD spec as well. How many people forego full 720x480 resolution and digital surround sound? Even among those who have bought HDTVs this would be an interesting survey, because perhaps they didn't bother to upgrade their several year old DVD player that doesn't support component out or proscan, for example (I actually know a couple).
Still, they get benefit out of DVD even if they don't take full advantage of it: media doesn't deteriorate anywhere near as rapidly as VHS does, no rewind, chapter selection, commentary tracks, more compact storage, etc. By the same token, even if HDMI isn't available, Blu-Ray/HD-DVD formats offer the potential for improvements over DVD for those who wish to adopt: combination of physical capacity plus the use of more advanced video compression formats allows for far more SD content to be placed on one BD/HD-DVD, more advanced application layers designed into the format for more ambitious content interaction, networkability as standard for future content updates and, specifically in the case of BD, designed for recordability from the start to be suitable as an optical disc-based DVR.
Further, it's also odd to try to portray HDMI as a weakness based on its availability in current model TVs since, if we're talking about scenarios where BD/HD-DVD is no more successful than DVD has been, it would take at least 4 years for either format to reach real mass market levels of acceptance (because that's about how long it took DVD to really gain hold). Are we still going to be worried that there aren't enough HDTVs rigged with HDMI by then?
As for early adopters like myself, Vennt said it best with MrBob's assist.
And none of this is meant as an endorsement for an A/V connection that exists primarily for DRM purposes.
http://www.cabledatacomnews.com/sep05/sep05-3.html
I think high-def DVD is coming at about the right time, but the restrictions are souring my interest, especially since I have a two-year old set without HDMI. And the bolded comment is rediculous.
I think high-def DVD is coming at about the right time, but the restrictions are souring my interest, especially since I have a two-year old set without HDMI. And the bolded comment is rediculous.
MetalAlien
Banned
There is no way in hell I'm buying all my DVDs again... For a select few movies, I'd upgrade them to whatever HD standard wins.
They are releasing this new standard WAY too fast..
They are releasing this new standard WAY too fast..
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