Boehner: Nation on the path to default if Obama doesn't give concessions for ACA

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border said:
People claim that the wealthy and powerful control the Republican party. So why are they allowing this? Some CEO or investment banker really doesn't give a shit about Obamacare, if taking a stand on it is going to cause all his investments to collapse when a default tanks the market.

It seems to me that as the deadline looms nearer and the stock market begins a nasty downturn America's rich fatcats will call up all the people who they've contributed millions to and say "What the fuck are you doing? Stop this!" And it will be over very quickly.

Thank you 1%'ers!
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The Tea Party is in control of the House, even though they are a minority everywhere else. That's why this is happening. A small group of nutjobs have basically infiltrated the government thanks to dumb people voting for them and are holding the government hostage.
 
Tkawsome said:
Is it possible that could be a good thing (eventually). It seems the whole economy is based on debt, couldn't this force us to focus on what we have now instead of promises for the future? I mean, it's already a little ugly now, could something like this shake things up to restructure our priorities?

Again, I'm ignorant to most economy and budgeting talk so I'm probably talking out my ass here. Just trying to wrap my head around it.
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National debt is not bad. Our priorities should be for the future.
 
Riki said:
Or they have less control over the monkeys they put in charge than they think.
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Let's take a moment for to let that sink in:

The GOP and Tea Party might be so crazy and delusional at this point that, potentially, even the 1% can't control and reign them in

Holy. Shit.
 
Tkawsome said:
Is it possible that could be a good thing (eventually). It seems the whole economy is based on debt, couldn't this force us to focus on what we have now instead of promises for the future? I mean, it's already a little ugly now, could something like this shake things up to restructure our priorities?

Again, I'm ignorant to most economy and budgeting talk so I'm probably talking out my ass here. Just trying to wrap my head around it.
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Its not really like household debt though for a number of reasons, primarily because the US controls its own currency and the debt issuing takes the form of bond sales. I hope someone like EV can pop in here and do a much better job then I could explaining about how the system works
 
If we default it is 100% on the Republicans. Enjoy your House majority, Republicans -- keep it up and it'll be the last majority you ever have. I figured after the disastrous 2012 election they'd realize they were on a road to irrelevance and make some needed changes but all they've done since is double down on stupid.
 
I am confused by this. Obama got elected on his program, including the affordable care act, twice. I thought the Bill had passed all the gates to go into effect, it's in the books.

Is this just the worst kind of sore loserism or am I missing something?
 
border said:
People claim that the wealthy and powerful control the Republican party. So why are they allowing this? Some CEO or investment banker really doesn't give a shit about Obamacare, if taking a stand on it is going to cause all his investments to collapse when a default tanks the market.

It seems to me that as the deadline looms nearer and the stock market begins a nasty downturn America's rich fatcats will call up all the people who they've contributed millions to and say "What the fuck are you doing? Stop this!" And it will be over very quickly.

Thank you 1%'ers!
Click to expand...
Health care is massively profitable in the US, one of the most profitable industries in the entire country. Health care CEOs, board members, share holders etc are America's rich fat cats and Obamacare threatens their profiteering big time. They will fight to the death.
 
TacticalFox88 said:
Let's take a moment for to let that sink in:

The GOP and Tea Party might be so crazy and delusional at this point that, potentially, even the 1% can't control and reign them in

Holy. Shit.
Click to expand...

Who knows, perhaps some of the 1% are as crazy as the Tea Party. Remember, some are fucking rich to the point of not knowing anything outside of their super luxury bubble.
 
slit said:
Pretty much.
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My mind has blown.

I thought it was crazy enough when I assumed it was the house shutting down the government.
But one bloke doing it?
I doubt even the president has the power to shut down the government... he'd probably be impeached (or whatever) if he tried.
One bloke.....
How is this allowed?
 
elostyle said:
It doesn't seem like a rule like that has a place in a democracy.
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It's not even really a rule.

I guess I was wrong earlier. Hastert didn't OUTRIGHT say that the "rule" named after him should be set aside in this instance. But he's really, really heavily hinting that it should happen.

This thing could have ended on Wednesday with a simple up-or-down vote.

edit: Beat'd to the support link for my own post! Thanks Wilson :)
 
Neo C. said:
Who knows, perhaps some of the 1% are as crazy as the Tea Party. Remember, some are fucking rich to the point of not knowing anything outside of their super luxury bubble.
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They are smart enough to know that a ruined economy will cost them a lot more than having to buy health insurance.
 
IISANDERII said:
Health care is massively profitable in the US, one of the most profitable industries in the entire country. Health care CEOs, board members, share holders etc are America's rich fat cats and Obamacare threatens their profiteering big time. They will fight to the death.
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Actually, they're probably making about as much or more profit since the ACA requires everyone to buy insurance. That's a huge untapped market, and the government is subsidizing them and giving those corporations lots of cash.

Now, government run universal health care would, however, threaten their profits.

Goodlife said:
My mind has blown.

I thought it was crazy enough when I assumed it was the house shutting down the government.
But one bloke doing it?
I doubt even the president has the power to shut down the government... he'd probably be impeached (or whatever) if he tried.
One bloke.....
How is this allowed?
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The people who made the rules falsely believed no one would ever be crazy enough and horrible enough do shit like modern Republicans do.
 
Clevinger said:
Actually, they're probably making about as much or more profit since the ACA requires everyone to buy insurance. That's a huge untapped market, and the government is subsidizing them and giving those corporations lots of cash.

Now, government run universal health care would, however, threaten their profits.



The people who made the rules falsely believed no one would ever be crazy enough and horrible enough do shit like modern Republicans do.
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Well, they were smart enough not to include something as idiotic as the debt ceiling. That shit was created in 1917.
 
Clevinger said:
Actually, they're probably making about as much or more profit since the ACA requires everyone to buy insurance. That's a huge untapped market, and the government is subsidizing them and giving those corporations lots of cash.

Now, government run universal health care would, however, threaten their profits.



The people who made the rules falsely believed no one would ever be crazy enough and horrible enough do shit like modern Republicans do.
Click to expand...

To be fair to the founding fathers, they were pretty much right for over 250 years until 2008 happened.
 
Ok so I've been balls deep in school work for the past month and I must profess to near total ignorance on this whole government shutdown/debt ceiling (I'm not American just to clear things up). This also may not be the best thread for this post and if it isn't, I apologize in advance.

I'll admit to having somewhat of a right-wing/conservative leaning when it comes to economic policy (while being a total liberal with most social aspects i.e. I'm in favour of abortion, gay marriage etc.). From what I do understand of this situation, the Republicans have been acting like douchebags by controlling the House of Representatives and not allowing Obama to pass anything. But part of me just can't shake the notion that no matter how shitty/in bad faith the Republicans have been acting, they are still acting in the USA's ultimate best interest. Regardless of whether things are Obama/Bush's fault (likely both), the US debt has risen at un unsustainable pace in the past couple of years. The USA has undoubtedly become more of a "welfare" state than it's been in a long time.

Without getting into a "this is all Obama's/the Tea Party's fault" discussion, can anyone address the following questions: How much debt is too much debt? At what point does the US government (regardless of party) change its ways and cut back on borrowing? How does the USA cut back on debt? Does pushing back the debt ceiling really allow for anything aside from the propagation of bad financial habits? Doesn't pushing back the debt ceiling also push the USA closer to higher interest rates/defaults on loans which it needs to run it's economy?

While now may not be the time for such measures, it seems like something has to give in terms of the USA's borrowing policies. From a somewhat objective/neutral/ignorant standpoint, raising the debt ceiling does not seem like the best course of action given the fragile state of the world's economy. I'm sure I'm wrong/inaccurate in saying this but it seems like Obama/Dems are pushing for a band-aid solution to a festering flesh wound, while the Republicans are refusing treatment. Neither side is actually helping to heal the wound, but the band-aid treatment will be more costly to everyone in the long run.
 
Legendary_Red said:
Because he is the damn president. Avoiding a national crisis is his #1 job, after that he can play politics and push his agenda, he can play the blame game later.
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Christ, so he should just show the Republicans that whenever they don't agree with things THAT ARE LEGALLY PASSED INTO CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, they can just shut down the US government until they get their way, like a bunch of spoiled, bitchy children?

You serious right now?
 
mikelb7 said:
Ok so I've been balls deep in school work for the past month and I must profess to near total ignorance on this whole government shutdown/debt ceiling (I'm not American just to clear things up). This also may not be the best thread for this post and if it isn't, I apologize in advance.

I'll admit to having somewhat of a right-wing/conservative leaning when it comes to economic policy (while being a total liberal with most social aspects i.e. I'm in favour of abortion, gay marriage etc.). From what I do understand of this situation, the Republicans have been acting like douchebags by controlling the House of Representatives and not allowing Obama to pass anything. But part of me just can't shake the notion that no matter how shitty/in bad faith the Republicans have been acting, they are still acting in the USA's ultimate best interest. Regardless of whether things are Obama/Bush's fault (likely both), the US debt has risen at un unsustainable pace in the past couple of years. The USA has undoubtedly become more of a "welfare" state than it's been in a long time.

Without getting into a "this is all Obama's/the Tea Party's fault" discussion, can anyone address the following questions: How much debt is too much debt? At what point does the US government (regardless of party) change its ways and cut back on borrowing? How does the USA cut back on debt? Does pushing back the debt ceiling really allow for anything aside from the propagation of bad financial habits? Doesn't pushing back the debt ceiling also push the USA closer to higher interest rates/defaults on loans which it needs to run it's economy?

While now may not be the time for such measures, it seems like something has to give in terms of the USA's borrowing happens. From a somewhat objective/neutral/ignorant standpoint, raising the debt ceiling does not seem like the best course of action given the fragile state of the world's economy. I'm sure I'm wrong/inaccurate in saying this but it seems like Obama/Dems are pushing for a band-aid solution to a festering flesh wound, while the Republicans are refusing treatment. Neither side is actually helping to heal the wound, but the band-aid treatment will be more costly to everyone in the long run.
Click to expand...

Shutting down the government. Denying access to essential programs and pay for millions. Dragging the country towards financial ruin.
These are not the actions of people that want the best for a country. They're the actions of mad men.

As for the debt ceiling, it's meaningless. It literally means nothing. Many other first world countries function without a debt ceiling. It's an arbitrary number. It needs to be gotten rid of.
The only problem is we still have it. And default is very bad. For everyone. So until such a time that we can get rid of it (Hint: Republicans don't want that) we have to keep raising it.
 
mikelb7 said:
Ok so I've been balls deep in school work for the past month and I must profess to near total ignorance on this whole government shutdown/debt ceiling (I'm not American just to clear things up). This also may not be the best thread for this post and if it isn't, I apologize in advance.

I'll admit to having somewhat of a right-wing/conservative leaning when it comes to economic policy (while being a total liberal with most social aspects i.e. I'm in favour of abortion, gay marriage etc.). From what I do understand of this situation, the Republicans have been acting like douchebags by controlling the House of Representatives and not allowing Obama to pass anything. But part of me just can't shake the notion that no matter how shitty/in bad faith the Republicans have been acting, they are still acting in the USA's ultimate best interest. Regardless of whether things are Obama/Bush's fault (likely both), the US debt has risen at un unsustainable pace in the past couple of years. The USA has undoubtedly become more of a "welfare" state than it's been in a long time.

Without getting into a "this is all Obama's/the Tea Party's fault" discussion, can anyone address the following questions: How much debt is too much debt? At what point does the US government (regardless of party) change its ways and cut back on borrowing? How does the USA cut back on debt? Does pushing back the debt ceiling really allow for anything aside from the propagation of bad financial habits? Doesn't pushing back the debt ceiling also push the USA closer to higher interest rates/defaults on loans which it needs to run it's economy?

While now may not be the time for such measures, it seems like something has to give in terms of the USA's borrowing happens. From a somewhat objective/neutral/ignorant standpoint, raising the debt ceiling does not seem like the best course of action given the fragile state of the world's economy. I'm sure I'm wrong/inaccurate in saying this but it seems like Obama/Dems are pushing for a band-aid solution to a festering flesh wound, while the Republicans are refusing treatment. Neither side is actually helping to heal the wound, but the band-aid treatment will be more costly to everyone in the long run.
Click to expand...

America's debt is not some monstrosity. A lot of countries have comparable debt, several have higher debt to GDP than us. Japan has twice as much debt to GDP as the US, yet they can borrow at extremely low interest rates. Why is that? Well, people have faith that they will pay it back A good way to destroy that faith is to default on our debt, and that is what the GOP is threatening. Its completely idiotic. They are not being fiscally responsible at all since they are threatening the world economic system.

I honestly don't care if they think they are doing what is right. It is not. They are blackmailing the US government to give into demands that they cannot achieve through normal democratic means. Their actions will undermind our democracy and set precedence that a minority party can threaten government shut down or refuse to raise the debt ceiling to gain concessions out of the administration.

Would you be cool with a republican controlled house and white house being blackmailed by democrats in the senate and saying that they will only raise the debt ceiling if single payer, repeal of the bush tax cuts or expanded social security happens? Well, that is exactly what is happening now.
 
mikelb7 said:
Without getting into a "this is all Obama's/the Tea Party's fault" discussion, can anyone address the following questions: How much debt is too much debt? At what point does the US government (regardless of party) change its ways and cut back on borrowing? How does the USA cut back on debt? Does pushing back the debt ceiling really allow for anything aside from the propagation of bad financial habits? Doesn't pushing back the debt ceiling also push the USA closer to higher interest rates/defaults on loans which it needs to run it's economy?
Click to expand...

How about you tell us how much debt is too much since you seem to think it's a problem. Instead of asking how the USA should cut back on debt we should ask why it should. DO you even know?

Not raising the debt ceiling is a bad financial habit. Hands down. End of story. End of question.


mikelb7 said:
While now may not be the time for such measures, it seems like something has to give in terms of the USA's borrowing policies. From a somewhat objective/neutral/ignorant standpoint, raising the debt ceiling does not seem like the best course of action given the fragile state of the world's economy. I'm sure I'm wrong/inaccurate in saying this but it seems like Obama/Dems are pushing for a band-aid solution to a festering flesh wound, while the Republicans are refusing treatment. Neither side is actually helping to heal the wound, but the band-aid treatment will be more costly to everyone in the long run.
Click to expand...

From a very objective standpoint not raising the debt ceiling is the worst course of action given the fragile state of the world's economy. It would send ripples of chaos throughout the entire world's economy and could start another recession.

Seriously, there's so much wrong with your post I'm sure more people will pick it apart later and probably a bunch have before I even hit submit reply on this. You should do yourself a favor and research this sort of stuff before talking about it. I don't think you could have posted something more completely wrong if you had tried.
 
Riki said:
Shutting down the government. Denying access to essential programs and pay for millions. Dragging the country towards financial ruin.
These are not the actions of people that want the best for a country. They're the actions of mad men.

As for the debt ceiling, it's meaningless. It literally means nothing. Many other first world countries function without a debt ceiling. It's an arbitrary number. It needs to be gotten rid of.
The only problem is we still have it. And default is very bad. For everyone. So until such a time that we can get rid of it (Hint: Republicans don't want that) we have to keep raising it.
Click to expand...

No offence but this is the kind of answer I was trying to avoid. These aren't solutions (which is what I was after), these are logical conclusions and one could argue that these are also logical conclusions to an America which has defaulted on its loans and can no longer borrow money from any other countries.

Can you name me a country that has no debt ceiling that is also in good economic standing? Again, the same questions I have above apply... how much debt is too much debt? How does the USA ween itself off debt?

I know the hate for Republicans/their ideology is strong but I'm looking for answers which answer the systemic issues America now faces (aka please go beyond "fuck the Republicans!")
 
IISANDERII said:
Health care is massively profitable in the US, one of the most profitable industries in the entire country. Health care CEOs, board members, share holders etc are America's rich fat cats and Obamacare threatens their profiteering big time. They will fight to the death.
Click to expand...

Maybe if there was a public option, sure, but the way it's set up now the health care industry is gonna make out like bandits from ACA.
 
mikelb7 said:
But part of me just can't shake the notion that no matter how shitty/in bad faith the Republicans have been acting, they are still acting in the USA's ultimate best interest.
Click to expand...

House Republicans - and particularly Tea Party Republicans - are not acting in the country's best interests, though. They're a minority group that is acting in the best interests of a minority group of constituents.

What's in the country's best interests is to have a functioning and funded federal government, with the country obligated to pay back the money it has already spent. What's in the country's best interests is to show that a law that passes through all three branches of government, with the majority support of Congress, the Supreme Court, and the voting public IS the law - and grounding that entire system to a halt because a minority doesn't like it is an undemocratic and dangerous precedent.

I'm sure I'm wrong/inaccurate in saying this but it seems like Obama/Dems are pushing for a band-aid solution to a festering flesh wound, while the Republicans are refusing treatment. Neither side is actually helping to heal the wound, but the band-aid treatment will be more costly to everyone in the long run.
Click to expand...

How in the world is a placing a band-aid on a wound a better alternative to not treating the wound at all?
 
mikelb7 said:
Can you name me a country that has no debt ceiling that is also in good economic standing? Again, the same questions I have above apply... how much debt is too much debt? How does the USA ween itself off debt?
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Well, we're a fiat monetary system. We don't actually have to borrow, nor do we have to have 'debt.' That's just another spending program. It is a sound investment that a lot of people rely on, though, so we should probably keep some of it around.

If you're trying to advocate for us to ween ourselves off "debt" by cutting spending then you're a lunatic. We already have evidence of what austerity does. Why exactly do you think it'll work now? Why exactly do you think it's a good idea with high unemployment and low inflation to contract our monetary pool?

Again, to you, how much debt do you think is to much, and precisely why?
 
mikelb7 said:
No offence but this is the kind of answer I was trying to avoid. These aren't solutions (which is what I was after), these are logical conclusions and one could argue that these are also logical conclusions to an America which has defaulted on its loans and can no longer borrow money from any other countries.

Can you name me a country that has no debt ceiling that is also in good economic standing? Again, the same questions I have above apply... how much debt is too much debt? How does the USA ween itself off debt?

I know the hate for Republicans/their ideology is strong but I'm looking for answers which answer the systemic issues America now faces (aka please go beyond "fuck the Republicans!")
Click to expand...

Who does the U.S. Borrow money from?
 
mikelb7 said:
No offence but this is the kind of answer I was trying to avoid. These aren't solutions (which is what I was after), these are logical conclusions and one could argue that these are also logical conclusions to an America which has defaulted on its loans and can no longer borrow money from any other countries.

Can you name me a country that has no debt ceiling that is also in good economic standing? Again, the same questions I have above apply... how much debt is too much debt? How does the USA ween itself off debt?

I know the hate for Republicans/their ideology is strong but I'm looking for answers which answer the systemic issues America now faces (aka please go beyond "fuck the Republicans!")
Click to expand...

Well, technically, no country is in good economic standing. But every country is in debt. And countries like Britain, France, Canada. They all have debt with no limit. They're all in better shape then us.
There is no way to "ween us off debt." It's impossible. You can't run a country without debt. You are always borrowing money from someone. Other countries, your citizens. Someone. It is impossible to not have debt.
You want a real solution? Get rid of the Tea Party. I'm not saying get rid of Republicans. Just the Tea Party. They are the only group that is being a problem right now. They are literally holding the country hostage.
A vote, if brought to the floor by Boehner (A Tea Party supporting Republican) for a clean budget would pass this very minute.
But he won't do it.
And why? Because of a law that has already passed and is being funded that will help Americans get insurance.
 
mikelb7 said:
No offence but this is the kind of answer I was trying to avoid. These aren't solutions (which is what I was after), these are logical conclusions and one could argue that these are also logical conclusions to an America which has defaulted on its loans and can no longer borrow money from any other countries.

Can you name me a country that has no debt ceiling that is also in good economic standing? Again, the same questions I have above apply... how much debt is too much debt? How does the USA ween itself off debt?

I know the hate for Republicans/their ideology is strong but I'm looking for answers which answer the systemic issues America now faces (aka please go beyond "fuck the Republicans!")
Click to expand...

Japan does not have a debt ceiling, as was previously mentioned, and is in good economic standing. To answer your questions:

1) So long as you can service your debt payments, grow the economy faster than the debt does, and invest the money in a manner that generates a greater return than the interest rate, the debt is not a problem.

2) Accordingly, there is no need to ween the U.S. off of debt. Debt itself is not a bad thing.
 
mikelb7 said:
Can you name me a country that has no debt ceiling that is also in good economic standing? Again, the same questions I have above apply... how much debt is too much debt? How does the USA ween itself off debt?
Click to expand...

A better question would be, why does it matter? National debt isn't the same thing as personal debt.
 
mikelb7 said:
No offence but this is the kind of answer I was trying to avoid. These aren't solutions (which is what I was after), these are logical conclusions and one could argue that these are also logical conclusions to an America which has defaulted on its loans and can no longer borrow money from any other countries.

Can you name me a country that has no debt ceiling that is also in good economic standing? Again, the same questions I have above apply... how much debt is too much debt? How does the USA ween itself off debt?

I know the hate for Republicans/their ideology is strong but I'm looking for answers which answer the systemic issues America now faces (aka please go beyond "fuck the Republicans!")
Click to expand...

Youre talking as if debt in inherently bad for a State, while it would be preferable to ''save'' as much as possible. This is how you manage a household economy, not a nation's: national debt is used to fuel national spending, which goes to it's citizens, who in turn pay taxes and consume. Cutting national spending has historically been proven to have mostly negative effects both on economy AND politics.
 
This idea that permeates conservative mentality that the government needs to be run like household is something I will never understand when the comparison makes no sense.
 
metalslimer said:
This idea that permeates conservative mentality that the government needs to be run like household is something I will never understand when the comparison makes no sense.
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Because they're (mostly) greedy business men that think that because they can run a business they can run a country.
 
elostyle said:
I am confused by this. Obama got elected on his program, including the affordable care act, twice. I thought the Bill had passed all the gates to go into effect, it's in the books.

Is this just the worst kind of sore loserism or am I missing something?
Click to expand...

Nope. With a massive -1.7 million majority margin, the people have spoken and want the House to throw away Obamacare!
 
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