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[SUPREME1]

The idea of things which are considered unacceptable in secular society becoming justified in the context of religion, because they're done to garner favor from God, is unsettling to me. I keep up with current events and have some knowledge of history, so I know what people do to themselves and others to earn God's love. Not just beating themselves, but blowing themselves up, mutilating themselves, real sacrifices--not just ones of sorts--among other things.

Things that in secular society are considered disturbing, and even in religious society considered disturbing in other cultures even though they're done for the same reasons (Africa for instance). Admittedly most of the time much worse than a pope beating the crap out of himself, but with the Catholic Church having one billion followers I find it disturbing for anyone to suggest something like this puts you closer to God.

No one said you have to agree with my opinion.

You need not look passed your opening line. Who gives a sh*t what secular society deems acceptable? Definitely not those who hold their faith above all else. So why are you so surprised that they don't keep in step with secular society?


The church hasn't suggested people whip themselves or anything of the sort. This is something John Pual did behind closed doors and of his own choosing. Maybe it's something he felt would keep him humble and focused?


I never said you did. I was commenting. My opinion differs from your yours... and vice versa. Simply posting in a thread.

 

[Dude Abides]

This is absolute truth. In no way would somebody ever write something inflammatory about a dead personality in order to sell books.

That weirdo Pope guy.

....

according to a new book by the Polish prelate spearheading his sainthood case.

 

[xelios]

You need not look passed your opening line. Who gives a sh*t what secular society deems acceptable? Definitely not those who hold their faith above all else.

That's pretty obvious. All you gotta do is turn on the news and hear about the newest suicide or abortion clinic bomber. Really beside the point though.

And you're right the church hasn't suggested it, but someone suggested it put him closer to sainthood, which I found disturbing.

 

[Kurtofan]

I don't see how this is a problem.He didn't tell the Catholics to do the same and he kept it secret so I don't think it matters.

 

[WanderingWind]

....

So...that means he's not trying to sell anything?

 

[SUPREME1]

That's pretty obvious. All you gotta do is turn on the news and hear about the newest suicide or abortion clinic bomber. Really beside the point though.

Abortion clinic bomber? Really?

Do me a favor and list all the abortin clinic bombings of this past decade. I'm sure Wikipedia would have that info. Go ahead, I'll wait.


As far as suicide bombings, nobody ever said all religions teach the same message. I don't see many Catholic bombings on the news at night. I'll just leave that at that.

Lol, do yourself a favor and wiki John Paul II and see how much good he did in this world... instead of trying to lump him in with every religious radical who's gone off the deep end.

Also look up the amount of deaths over this last century which were the result of secular countries run amok. I'm sure wiki also has that info.

 

[DevelopmentArrested]

Abortion clinic bomber? Really?

Do me a favor and list all the abortin clinic bombings of this past decade. I'm sure Wikipedia would have that info. Go ahead, I'll wait.


As far as suicide bombings, nobody ever said all religions teach the same message. I don't see many Catholic bombings on the news at night. I'll just leave that at that.

Lol, do yourself a favor and wiki John Paul II and see how much good he did in this world... instead of trying to lump him in with every religious radical who's gone off the deep end.

Also look up the amount of deaths over this last century which were the result of secular countries run amok. I'm sure wiki also has that info.

I know right Hitler, Mao and Stalin were atheists lol; Christians getting a bad rap again

 

[xelios]

As far as suicide bombings, nobody ever said all religions teach the same message. I don't see many Catholic bombings on the news at night. I'll just leave that at that.

Lol, do yourself a favor and wiki John Paul II and see how much good he did in this world... instead of trying to lump him in with every religious radical who's gone off the deep end.

I never said John Paul II was a bad person, you completely missed the point. I said him beating himself should not be the focus of getting him to sainthood. It's ridiculous.

Anyway, you said , "...who gives a sh*t what secular society deems acceptable," as if that is something to be proud of. I was merely reminding you what ignoring everything but your religious beliefs can lead to. "Those who hold their faith above all else" (i.e. even the law) are why these things happen, even suicide bombings. Regardless of whether you share the same faith or not, you share the same mindset that enables it (that your religion > what society or anyone else has deemed acceptable). You think it's a good thing, I think it's stupid and dangerous, just as things suddenly becoming "OK" in religious context if they were wrong in secular society before.

As for abortion clinic stats from Wiki, getting off topic again but since you asked:

The majority of anti-abortion violence has been committed in the United States of America.

In the U.S., violence directed toward abortion providers has killed at least eight people, including four doctors, two clinic employees, a security guard, and a clinic escort.[5]

According to statistics gathered by the National Abortion Federation (NAF), an organization of abortion providers, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, there have been 17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, and 3 kidnappings committed against abortion providers.[10

The first anthrax hoax letters claiming to contain anthrax were mailed to U.S. clinics in October 1998, a few days after the Slepian shooting, and since then, there have been a total of 655 such bioterror threats made against abortion providers. None of the "anthrax" in these cases was real.[11][14]

According to NAF, since 1977 in the United States and Canada, property crimes committed against abortion providers have included 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats, 1630 incidents of trespassing, 1264 incidents of vandalism, and 100 attacks with butyric acid ("stink bombs").[10] The first clinic arson occurred in Oregon in March 1976 and the first bombing occurred in February 1978 in Ohio.[15] More recent incidents have included:[5]

 

[speculawyer]

 

[Rapstah]

I don't get it. It's not like this Polish organisation is going to go to the official Sainthood Board and say "We request Pope John Paul II be granted sainthood because he travelled around the world generally helping people, stopping wars and was a good guy", and the Sainthood Board'll go "Nah, we don't know", and this organisation'll go "AND HE WHIPPED HIMSELF WITH A BELT OCCASIONALLY" like that'll change the whole thing.

 

[Pimpwerx]

Crazy zealotry doesn't go over well with me. :? PEACE.

 

[Lucky Forward]

I was raised Catholic and then drifted away as an adult, but I always had a generally positive opinion of JPII, even though he was out of step with the modern world in so many ways at least he seemed well intentioned. But honestly, this news just strikes me a a little bit sad and disturbing, and I picture him as this lonely old man debasing himself behind closed doors for...what? To be closer to God? It just doesn't seem healthy. And where do you draw the line on this kind of self abuse? Would cutting or burning yourself bring you even closer to Him?

On a lighter note, I wonder if he ever gave himself a good lash with the belt...

*crack*

...and yelped, "Ow, fuck!"

"uh oh...better do another one for that..."

*crack*

"Jesus Christ! Uh oh..."

 

[Rapstah]

I was raised Catholic and then drifted away as an adult, but I always had a generally positive opinion of JPII, even though he was out of step with the modern world in so many ways at least he seemed well intentioned. But honestly, this news just strikes me a a little bit sad and disturbing, and I picture him as this lonely old man debasing himself behind closed doors for...what? To be closer to God? It just doesn't seem healthy. And where do you draw the line on this kind of self abuse? Would cutting or burning yourself bring you even closer to Him?

On a lighter note, I wonder if he ever gave himself a good lash with the belt...

*crack*

...and yelped, "Ow, fuck!"

"uh oh...better do another one for that..."

*crack*

"Jesus Christ! Uh oh..."

Why would the pope consider saying "Jesus Christ" a sin?

 

[3rdman]

What they don't mention is the raging hard on he got every time he whipped himself.

 

[Zeke]

Why would the pope consider saying "Jesus Christ" a sin?

lords name in vain I imagine

 

[Lucky Forward]

Why would the pope consider saying "Jesus Christ" a sin?

Catholics consider that taking the lord's name in vain.

 

[SUPREME1]

I never said John Paul II was a bad person, you completely missed the point.

Anyway, you said people, "...don't give a sh*t what secular society thinks," as if that is something to be proud of. I was merely reminding you what ignoring everything but your religious beliefs can lead to. "Those who hold their faith above all else" (i.e. even the law) are why these things happen, even suicide bombings, regardless of whether you share the same faith or not. If you want to be proud of such a mindset go ahead. You think it's a good thing, I think it's stupid and dangerous, just as things suddenly becoming "OK" in religious context if they were wrong in secular society before.

As for abortion clinic stats from Wiki, getting off topic again but since you asked:

Actually, what I said was: "Who gives a sh*t what secular society deems acceptable?"

Followed directly by: "Definitely not those who hold their faith above all else. So why are you so surprised that they don't keep in step with secular society?"

I was merely pointing out that from your point of view, it's hard to understand their line of thinking. While form their point of view, they are thinking the exact same thing of you.

So, AGAIN, why are you so surprised when they don't attempt to live up to your standards? Are you not used to it by now? I'm mean seriously.


As far as the death stats go, I thank you for proving my point.

8 deaths since 1977.

There are over 300 MILLION people in the US alone... and since 1977, only 8 people have been killed in the name of Christians against abortion.

Yet you see this nightly on the news? : \



That's a terrible stat and all and I don't want to trivialize their deaths, but come on. Don't make it seem like Christians in the US are running around blowing sh*t up and killing at the same rate as religious radicals in other parts of the world. It's just not the case.


Also, just some clarification, because a few times you said "you" directed at me. I never said I don't give a sh*t about what secular society thinks. Just want to make that clear. I was just pointing out why they don't care.


I'm in the camp of: "I don't f*ck with people, I expect them not to f*ck with me."

 

[BreakyBoy]

Why would the pope consider saying "Jesus Christ" a sin?

Probably was referring to:

You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

 

[Rapstah]

Catholics consider that taking the lord's name in vain.

Interesting, I didn't know that.

 

[SUPREME1]

Interesting, I didn't know that.

When used in a certain manner.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Wow. Add this to the list of things (speaking tongues, having visions) that, if done by a non-religious person, would land them in a psychiatric institution to seek treatment, but when done in the name of religion are perfectly logical and admirable.

Your deep and nuanced understanding of the human psyche is impressive. Or not.

 

[Rapstah]

When used in a certain manner.

If we're going to get interpretive, you can read certain Bible passages to be against harming yourself physically as well (this took me twenty minutes of googling to find):

You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD. (Leviticus 19:28)

But you really have to read it in this specific manner to get it to be against the practice we're talking about here, so let's leave this subject and not respond to this post. Ever.

 

[xelios]

Your deep and nuanced understanding of the human psyche is impressive. Or not.

Regardless, my statement isn't any less true because of my (lack of) understanding.

People who self-mutilate or asphyxiate and the like are considered disturbed and recommended to get help. Many, including religious people, think people in Africa mutilating/scarring/burning themselves for whatever purpose is sick. The pope beats himself and it gets him closer to God. It only shows that when put in the context of religion disturbing acts can become perfectly acceptable.

8 deaths since 1977.

There are over 300 MILLION people in the US alone... and since 1977, only 8 people have been killed in the name of Christians against abortion.

17 attempted murders, 383 death threats, 153 incidents of assault or battery, 41 bombings, 173 arsons, 91 attempted bombings or arsons, 619 bomb threats...

But you're right, maybe I should've gone to previous centuries as far as what the Catholic Church specifically did to please the Lord that was not considered acceptable outside the context of religion, but I'd be getting too far away from the OP.

 

[exarkun]

Wow a mod actually used an IP address to ban someone who was previously banned. HAven't seen that in a while.

OT, its odd that they use this as a case for saint hood because self flagellation is so polarizing for the not so devout. Kinda taints his public image in the history books no?

 

[SUPREME1]

Regardless, my statement isn't any less true because of my (lack of) understanding.

People who self-mutilate or asphyxiate and the like are considered disturbed and recommended to get help. Many, including religious people, think people in Africa mutilating/scarring/burning themselves for whatever purpose is sick. The pope beats himself and it gets him closer to God. It only shows that when put in the context of religion disturbing acts can become perfectly acceptable.

...and why does this bother you so much?

 

[Zeke]

Wow a mod actually used an IP address to ban someone who was previously banned. HAven't seen that in a while.

OT, its odd that they use this as a case for saint hood because self flagellation is so polarizing for the not so devout. Kinda taints his public image in the history books no?

I think its gonna take a lot more than that to taint his image, its far more likely to be one of those things everyone will know about but not really care about, kinda like JFK banging Marilyn.

 

[xelios]

...and why does this bother you so much?

Why does it bother me that disturbing acts can become justified and acceptable when put in the context of religion? Read about the history of the Catholic Church and what they've done for God, that was otherwise not acceptable, since the formation of the church and get back to me. Not really worth explaining otherwise.


I'm just going to leave this one alone now, I've already made my point.

 

[LiveFromKyoto]

Regardless, my statement isn't any less true because of my (lack of) understanding.

People who self-mutilate or asphyxiate and the like are considered disturbed and recommended to get help. Many, including religious people, think people in Africa mutilating/scarring/burning themselves for whatever purpose is sick. The pope beats himself and it gets him closer to God. It only shows that when put in the context of religion disturbing acts can become perfectly acceptable.

No, you're way off base. People "need help" if they're unable to function in society. A conscious decision to undertake ascetic practice is actually a sign of somebody able to function above an everyday level. They possess a drive and a will to overcome pain and the simple pleasure-drive which dominates most people. They are able to transcend the grip of mundane ego-function in an attempt to get in touch with something beyond their limited conscious self. This is not done for erotic pleasure or due to a disintegrative personality.

You don't get to be Pope by being a raving lunatic who lacks self control. It is an unbelievably demanding position requiring a level of mental and spiritual poise beyond what even a President is expected to provide. And one competes for the job with a number of spiritually advanced people.

You would do well to study spiritual practices and their transcendent psychological functions before posting rolleyes smileys like it's the same thing as a miserable kid cutting themselves.

 

[Peronthious]

Am I the only one who read the title as" John Paul II used belt to wipe himself "
What an awful thing to imagine.

Now that is one dedicated clergyman.

 

[SUPREME1]

Why does it bother me that disturbing acts can become justified and acceptable when put in the context of religion? Read about the history of the Catholic Church and what they've done for God, that was otherwise not acceptable, since the formation of the church and get back to me. Not really worth explaining otherwise.


I'm just going to leave this one alone now, I've already made my point.

Again, who made you (secularism) the authority on what's acceptable?

 

[WHY WHY WHY?]

He was a badass. Best pope ever.

He's not seeing Pope Alexander the 6th...

Pope Alexander's claims to fame were taking over much of Italy by force with the help of his son Cesare (yes, his son), a racy relationship with his daughter Lucrezia (some say her son was his), and his affinity for throwing large parties, bordering on orgies, that usually culminated with little naked boys jumping out of large cakes.

This dude was so crazy, it's said he drew flies. Flies of awesome.

 

[SUPREME1]

No, you're way off base. People "need help" if they're unable to function in society. A conscious decision to undertake ascetic practice is actually a sign of somebody able to function above an everyday level. They possess a drive and a will to overcome pain and the simple pleasure-drive which dominates most people. They are able to transcend the grip of mundane ego-function in an attempt to get in touch with something beyond their limited conscious self. This is not done for erotic pleasure or due to a disintegrative personality.

You don't get to be Pope by being a raving lunatic who lacks self control. It is an unbelievably demanding position requiring a level of mental and spiritual poise beyond what even a President is expected to provide. And one competes for the job with a number of spiritually advanced people.

You would do well to study spiritual practices and their transcendent psychological functions before posting rolleyes smileys like it's the same thing as a miserable kid cutting themselves.

Wow, LiveFromKyoto.... very impressive.

And here I thought you were just a sorry hedo-loving cRaptors fan!

 

[Obsolete Observation]

You don't get to be Pope by being a raving lunatic who lacks self control. It is an unbelievably demanding position requiring a level of mental and spiritual poise beyond what even a President is expected to provide. And one competes for the job with a number of spiritually advanced people.

He's not seeing Pope Alexander the 6th...

Pope Alexander's claims to fame were taking over much of Italy by force with the help of his son Cesare (yes, his son), a racy relationship with his daughter Lucrezia (some say her son was his), and his affinity for throwing large parties, bordering on orgies, that usually culminated with little naked boys jumping out of large cakes.

This dude was so crazy, it's said he drew flies. Flies of awesome.

:lol

 

[DarknessTear]

Also, most Christian churches don't do the speak in tongues or having visions things anymore.

I've only ever been to one that did, and it was full of freaks.

My mom is like that. I can't really understand it but I know she's a good person who tries to help people, and she's sweet. To me it's offensive that you'd call my mom a freak.

 

[Dude Abides]

So...that means he's not trying to sell anything?

Don't be obtuse. It means he's not trying to sell something by casting the Pope in a bad light; i.e. it's not akin to some salacious celebrity biography, as your post implied. He's trying to show JPII in a good light.

 

[DevelopmentArrested]

No, you're way off base. People "need help" if they're unable to function in society. A conscious decision to undertake ascetic practice is actually a sign of somebody able to function above an everyday level. They possess a drive and a will to overcome pain and the simple pleasure-drive which dominates most people. They are able to transcend the grip of mundane ego-function in an attempt to get in touch with something beyond their limited conscious self. This is not done for erotic pleasure or due to a disintegrative personality.

You don't get to be Pope by being a raving lunatic who lacks self control. It is an unbelievably demanding position requiring a level of mental and spiritual poise beyond what even a President is expected to provide. And one competes for the job with a number of spiritually advanced people.

You would do well to study spiritual practices and their transcendent psychological functions before posting rolleyes smileys like it's the same thing as a miserable kid cutting themselves.

I think covering up hundreds probably thousands of child molestation cases while declaring that condoms make Aids in Africa worse, makes you a raving lunatic but hey maybe that's just moi.

 

[Aske]

Again, who made you (secularism) the authority on what's acceptable?

Secularism tries to base its morality (or what is and is not acceptable) on logic - on provable streams of cause and effect. For example, secular society generally considers beating children unacceptable these days because the analysis of unbiased scientific authorities suggests it does much more harm than good. Where once corporal punishment was commonplace, beating a child with a strap in this day and age would generally be viewed as extremely immoral, if not illegal. By contrast, religious people can make anything they like acceptable, because justification simply requires the phrase "it's God's will."

I would never argue that a Pope thrashing himself with a belt was evidence of mental illness, and I certainly wouldn't expect said Pope to hold himself to the standards of secular society - his worldview is entirely different. But for secularists to note that the act of a Pope whipping himself is at best eccentric, and at worst a dangerous example to set Catholics who may view his behaviour as divine, seems extremely reasonable. Many defenders of religion claim that faith in the unprovable supernatural claims of ancient texts does no harm to the faithful. This example undermines that argument.

 

[Onemic]

Catholics consider that taking the lord's name in vain.

that would be all Christians, not just Catholics.

 

[Wickerbasket]

As long as his perversion didn't hurt anyone I don't see the issue. If he wants to whip himself that's his prerogative. People should be less critical of him, everyone has their kinks.

It shouldn't stop him from being named a saint.

 

[lethial]

Maaaaaaan.

 

[Bluecondor]

Reading this about Pope John Paul II gives me an Assassin's Creed-esque, Templars vs. Assassin's vibe.

If you've ever been to the Vatican and Popes' tombs underneath (and the Castle Santangelo for that matter), it's actually quite eerie - and you can imagine secret meetings with the fate of humanity in the balance, etc.

 

[Diablos]

...

...


:lol

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

Am I the only one who read the title as" John Paul II used belt to wipe himself "
What an awful thing to imagine.

JP likely used this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PZeJZs2fdYo

 

[WanderingWind]

Don't be obtuse. It means he's not trying to sell something by casting the Pope in a bad light; i.e. it's not akin to some salacious celebrity biography, as your post implied. He's trying to show JPII in a good light.

No, I implied that he is probably making something up in order to sell books. His motive behind doing so is irrelevant.

 

[mclem]

You shall not make any cuts in your body for the dead nor make any tattoo marks on yourselves: I am the LORD. (Leviticus 19:28)

I love the fact that the second assertion in that sentence has absolutely no association with the first.

 

[SmokyDave]

JPII just went up in my estimation, the kinky devil.

I bet Ratzinger just writes shitty emo poetry.

 

[EmSeta]

Lucky for him he didn't end up like David Carradine.

 

[TheHeretic]

Again, who made you (secularism) the authority on what's acceptable?

Secularism is based on logic, the religious worldview is based on faith. An evidence based perspective is more likely to be correct than one based on belief without knowledge.

Self mutilation isn't a virtue by any appreciable standard. It sounds to me like the Pope was punishing himself for being human, which is absurd, as is decreasing your own quality of life in such absurd ways to get "closer to Jesus", whatever that means.