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BREAKING NEWS: BONDS ADMITS TO STERIOD USE, SAYS "I didn't know"

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Man some of you guys really like to jump on a guy. First of all this talk that the feds have all this evidence against him is bullsh!t. Plain and simple the feds have NOTHING on him. Anything Barry has said he has said because he chose to. If the feds actually had a bunch of evidence on him you would see WAY more going on and they wouldn't have agreed to keep his testimony secret. Fact is they only have 3rd or 4th person hearsay that he might have had access to certain substances. Fact is what Barry is admitting is what was already known basically. Everyone knew he was drinking this 'clear' liquid, and using this cream. The only news in this story is that in his testimony he admitted they were most likely steroids. Also the timeline of when he was given these 2 substances is well known. He used them openly and anyone could see this. There is no real proof of any knowing steroid use, let alone any real evidence of 'a decade on steroids' that a lot of you are alleging.

That said all of you whipped into a frenzy of 'OMG BARROID ON STEROIDS'. Think about the numbers this man put up ALWAYS. Hell think of the numbers he put up THIS YEAR for god's sake!?!! This past season after Balco and everything broke and they could detect any steroids taken and obviously he wasn't taking them, what did Barry Bonds do? Oh only have the best batting avg in baseball. One of the best slugging pcts of all time. Best on base % of all time and literally destroy everyone else in the league, and nearly carry his undertalented team into the playoffs! If his performance is in the juice then why NOW is he still the undisputed best player in baseball? You saw what happened to Giambi. If Bonds greatness was somehow steroid related it would show. IT HASN'T. I know a lot of people hate the guy, but they are just going to have to accept that regardless of this story and whatever else Bonds name is thrown into he has shown this past season even at 40 he is the best damn player period.
 

AirBrian

Member
Pimpwerx said:
Babe Ruth played in a different era with differenty calibre talent. Dare I say, anyone who can be a fat piece of shit and still the best player in the league isn't exactly facing the stiffest of competition. I'm not gonna take it all away from him, but give me a fucking break. There are guys in the Negro leagues that made Babe look like crap, and who put up enormous records. Why do we still pine over Babe Ruth to this day?
Here's an article that pretty much sums it up for Ruth:

Lovable Ruth was everyone's Babe
By Larry Schwartz
Special to ESPN.com

"He wasn't a baseball player. He was a worldwide celebrity, an international star, the likes of which baseball has never seen since," says broadcaster Ernie Harwell about Babe Ruth on ESPN Classic's SportsCentury series.

Babe Ruth's popularity and fame were so widespread that even America's enemies knew of him. Almost a decade after he had bashed his last home run, his presence still was felt.

During World War II, when Japanese soldiers charged American troops, they would sometimes scream, "To hell with Babe Ruth." Not "to hell with FDR" or "to hell with Douglas MacArthur," but "to hell with Babe Ruth."

Ruth was a man of mythic proportions. He became even more than the ultimate American sports celebrity. He was "a unique figure in the social history of the United States," wrote Robert Creamer in Babe: The Legend Comes to Life. "For more than any other man, Babe Ruth transcended sports, moved far beyond the artificial limits of baselines and outfield fences and sports pages."

The New York Times called Enrico Caruso "the Babe Ruth of operatic tenors" and Time magazine called Willie Sutton "the Babe Ruth of bank robbers." And even another sports icon was compared to him when Chicago Bulls owner Jerry Reinsdorf called Michael Jordan "the Babe Ruth of basketball."

A lifetime .342 hitter, Babe Ruth is second all-time to Hank Aaron in homers (714) and RBI (2,211).
Ruth belonged to the Golden Age of Sport. Of all the names that dominated the roaring twenties -- Red Grange, Jack Dempsey, Bobby Jones, Bill Tilden, Man o' War -- none was bigger than Babe. Known for devouring the most hot dogs to drinking the most beers to bedding the most women, he possessed an insatiable appetite for life.

The name "Babe Ruth" is synonymous with two other words, "home run." We hear his name and the numbers 60 and 714 instantly spring to mind. Prodigious homers are still described as Ruthian. What other athlete has ever had an adjective named for him?

Even his nicknames, such as "The Sultan of Swat" and "The Bambino," seem majestic. This is the man who truly made baseball the national pastime, the kid who started out looking like a Hall of Fame left-handed pitcher with the Boston Red Sox who became a Hall of Fame left-handed hitting outfielder with the New York Yankees.

The 6-foot-2, 215-pound Ruth revolutionized the game, changing it from a pitcher-dominated, scratch-out-a-run contest to a homer-hitting, dialing-long-distance event. Babe was the first to reach 30 homers, 40, 50, 60. Twelve times he led the American League in homers, 11 times he hit more than 40, four times more than 50. From 1920-33, he slugged 637 homers, an average of 45.5 per season. From 1926-31, from ages 31 to 36 when he was supposedly past his prime after a subpar 1925, he averaged 50 homers, 155 RBI, 147 runs and a .354 batting average. How would you have liked to have him on your Rotisserie League team?

A lifetime .342 hitter, Ruth has fallen to second all-time behind Hank Aaron in homers (714) and RBI (2,211) and third to Barry Bonds and Rickey Henderson in walks (2,062), but remains first in slugging percentage (.690).

With Ruth it's often difficult to separate truth from legend. Part of it is that we don't really seem to care. We want to believe that Ruth pointed towards the centerfield bleachers before homering in the 1932 World Series or that his "bellyache heard 'round the world," which caused him to undergo abdominal surgery in 1925, was the result of his eating too many hot dogs. We want to believe that he promised a sick kid in the hospital that he would belt a homer for him the next day and then he hit three.

He was born George Herman Ruth on Feb. 6, 1895 in Baltimore. He was not an orphan, as legend has it (his mother died when he was 16, his father when he was a major leaguer).

Growing up wild on the streets, he stole, skipped school, chewed tobacco and drank whiskey. In 1904, his parents placed him in St. Mary's Industrial School for Boys for his "incorrigible" behavior. Spending almost his entire youth there, he developed into a marvelous baseball player with the encouragement of Brother Matthias.

If it can be said that Ruth would eventually save baseball, the opposite might be equally true -- baseball saved Ruth from potential tragedy.

Though some have painted a picture of Ruth as a big blob, he was actually a remarkable physical specimen. As a boy and young man he was not fat, but graceful and fast. He could run, throw, field, hit and hit with power, although when he reached the majors in 1914, Boston was more interested in his pitching than his hitting.

In 1915, his first full season, he went 18-8 with a 2.44 ERA. That was followed by seasons of 23-12 with a league-leading 1.75 ERA and nine shutouts and 24-13 with a 2.01 ERA (and 35 complete games in 38 starts). By then, though, because he had displayed such power in his limited plate appearances, the Red Sox were using him more as an outfielder than pitcher in 1918 and 1919.

He tied for the major-league lead in homers with 11 in 1918 and set a record with 29 in 1919. That winter, Boston owner Harry Frazee, needing money to finance his Broadway shows, sold him to the Yankees for four payments of $25,000 plus interest and a $300,000 loan. The Red Sox, who won the World Series in 1916 and 1918 behind Ruth's magnificent pitching, haven't won a Series since.

Meanwhile, Ruth ignited the greatest dynasty in sports. The Yankees, who had never even won any title, captured seven pennants and four Series with Ruth. Their 1927 team often is considered the greatest in baseball history.

Red Sox fans don't sit around talking about Babe Ruth or their team's impending doom.
Ruth shattered his home-run record in 1920, belting 54 (no other player had more than 19). Only one team, the Philadelphia Phillies, hit more homers.

In the aftermath of the Black Sox scandal, Ruth set a homer record for the third consecutive season, blasting 59 in 1921. He also led the league with 171 RBI, 177 runs (still the modern major league record), a .512 on-base percentage and an .846 slugging percentage.

Two years later, the Yankees were playing in their beautiful new ballpark after being kicked out of the Polo Grounds by John McGraw and the Giants. Officially, it was Yankee Stadium. Unofficially, it was "The House That Ruth Built."

In 1927, Ruth's legend grew when a September spree enabled him to boost his home-run total to the magical number of 60, a record that would last for 34 years, until Roger Maris hit 61. Ruth continued to lead the league in homers every year through 1931. However, after managing just 22 in 1934, the Yankees let him go.

He had his last hurrah with the Boston Braves on May 25, 1935, when he walloped three homers in Pittsburgh. A week later, hitting .181, he said he was quitting at the same time the Braves announced he was released. He held 56 major-league records at the time.

Ruth never had his dream fulfilled of managing the Yankees, or any other team. Jacob Ruppert, Yankees owner, supposedly told him, "Manage the Yankees? You can't even manage yourself!"

About Ruth's life after baseball, Creamer wrote, "He was like an ex-President, famous but useless, creating a stir whenever he appeared in public, but curiously neutered, no longer a factor. He played golf, he bowled, he hunted and he waited, but the call to manage never came." Stricken with throat cancer, Ruth died on Aug. 16, 1948. He was 53.

"Sometimes I still can't believe what I saw," said Harry Hooper, a Boston teammate of Ruth's. "This 19-year-old kid, crude, poorly educated, only lightly brushed by the social veneer we call civilization, gradually transformed into the idol of American youth and the symbol of baseball the world over - a man loved by more people and with an intensity of feeling that perhaps has never been equaled before or since.

"I saw a man transformed into something pretty close to a god."
http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/ruth_babe.html
 

Eminem

goddamit, Griese!
Fact is they only have 3rd or 4th person hearsay that he might have had access to certain substances. Fact is what Barry is admitting is what was already known basically.

wtf? we NEVER, EVER EVER EVER had Bonds admit to even using them. Don't know what you're talking about...
 

Eminem

goddamit, Griese!
also:

Think about the numbers this man put up ALWAYS.

to quote Bat:

His pre-2000 stats (where he began a myserious and enormous jump in productivity...at age 36) and his stats since then:


HR/OBP/SLG/AVG

1986-2000: 31.8 0.407 0.561 0.288
2000-2004: 51.6 0.535 0.782 0.341
Jump : 19.8 0.128 0.221 0.054

I mean....those are really outrageous jumps. And I can't emphasize this enough: they happened when he was 36 years old a time when his numbers should be going in the opposite direction.

Steroids turned Bonds from a very good hitter (someone at the level of a Hideki Matsui or so) to the best hitter ever at an age where he'd otherwise be declining...end of story.


and from espn.com:

1) Do you believe Barry Bonds when he says he did not know the clear substance and cream he received from Greg Anderson were steroids?


84.5% No

15.5% Yes


2) How big an impact do you think these substances had on Bonds' output?


52.6% Significant - probably added 20 home runs

30.6% Moderate - probably added 10 home runs

16.8% Small - they didn't help his hand-eye coordination


3) Should Bonds have an asterisk next to his name in the record books?


66.4% Yes

33.6% No


4) Should these revelations affect Bonds' eligibility for the Hall of Fame?


52.7% No

47.3% Yes


5) Will the BALCO investigation prompt Bonds to retire?


77.9% No

22.1% Yes


6) What is worse, in terms of the propriety of baseball?


53.8% Taking steroids

46.2% Gambling on the game


7) Will Barry Bonds break the all-time home run record?


48.9% Yes, in 2006

29.2% Yes, next season

21.9% No, he will retire before he breaks the record


8) How will Barry Bonds be remembered years from now?


55.5% Steroid user

28.0% Greatest HR hitter of his era

16.5% Greatest HR hitter of all-time
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Eminem said:
also:

to quote Bat:

His pre-2000 stats (where he began a myserious and enormous jump in productivity...at age 36) and his stats since then:

HR/OBP/SLG/AVG

1986-2000: 31.8 0.407 0.561 0.288
2000-2004: 51.6 0.535 0.782 0.341
Jump : 19.8 0.128 0.221 0.054

I mean....those are really outrageous jumps. And I can't emphasize this enough: they happened when he was 36 years old a time when his numbers should be going in the opposite direction.

Steroids turned Bonds from a very good hitter (someone at the level of a Hideki Matsui or so) to the best hitter ever at an age where he'd otherwise be declining...end of story.

and from espn.com:

It's actually post-2000 when he allegedly was using steroids, but I digress.

Comparing to Bonds to Hideki Matsui is asinine. The guy has always hit for power, average, stole bases, was amazing defensively, etc. He was a five tool player in a era where those kind of players weren't abundant. We still don't have anyone comparable to him save for maybe Beltran.

I am not doubting that steroids helped his HR and slugging percentage. But to argue that steroids does anything to increase your average to the extent Bonds has and on base percentage is stupid. Those aren't physical talents, those are mental talents.

It's sad that it has come to this, one of the best players in the past 25 years, not content with being great, opting to use steroids to manufacture a legacy that will now forever be tarnished.
 

Bat

Member
Willco said:
It's actually post-2000 when he allegedly was using steroids, but I digress.

Comparing to Bonds to Hideki Matsui is asinine. The guy has always hit for power, average, stole bases, was amazing defensively, etc. He was a five tool player in a era where those kind of players weren't abundant. We still don't have anyone comparable to him save for maybe Beltran.

I am not doubting that steroids helped his HR and slugging percentage. But to argue that steroids does anything to increase your average to the extent Bonds has and on base percentage is stupid. Those aren't physical talents, those are mental talents.


As I already said, i'm comparing Bonds to Matsui purely in terms of their hitting stats, which are comparable. I'm not talking about his other skills earlier in his careers (which I also already mentioned).

And of course steroids helped his AVG and OBP. Steroids made him an all around much better hitter....AB that would normally end in long fly balls started becoming HRs (which would increase your AVG and OBP). In turn, that led to pitchers not giving him any good pitches, which is why he has so many walks (and is responsible for the unheard of OBP he racked up). Furthermore, your strength directly effects your bat speed, which not only gives you power but lets you swing later on pitches, reducing your strike outs. The increased strength that steroids allow make you a better all-around hitter, no questions asked.

And to somehow think that professional baseball players (who have taken batting practice every day since they were 6) can suddenly gain new mental talents and better hand-eye coordination overnight at age 36 is just an absolutely ridiculous argument. I mean....you can't really believe that?

I agree that Bonds was a great, great player before he took steroids...but your underestimating what effects they had on his hitting ability.

EDIT- Also, the stuff the goverment has about Bonds using steroids isn't some 3rd and 4th hand sources...they are papers confiscated from Anderson's home that have Bonds name right on them and steroids he was taking...calenders and such. That's pretty damning evidence. They are not showing any of it yet, of course, because they will use it in the upcoming BALCO trial.
 

Ramirez

Member
Steroids or not,the mofo is a good hitter,he matches everyone with a hell of alot less at bats,steroids help with HRs,but all the other stuff,not really.
 

Eminem

goddamit, Griese!
Bonds 2001, 2002, 2003 seasons deserve *, perhaps more depending on if any more concrete evidence exists.
He is still a definite hall of famer though. Pretty sad what's happened to him, but it's his own dumb fault.

HEY THIS FLAXWEED STUFF IS GIVING ME 30 LBS OF MUSCLE. I LOVES ME SOME FLAXWEED
 

hiryu

Member
I don't know how anyone can defend this. The guy is a fucking cheater and probably so are almost every other pro athlete. I hope all this scandal causes all of the sports leagues to have mandatory 365 days a year random testing. Sadly, this will probably never happed because of the money involved. Have societies morals sunk so low that they will put up with cheating as long as it's entertaining? I think it a pretty interesting dilemna that will hopefully change all sports for the better.
 
BigGreenMat said:
Man some of you guys really like to jump on a guy. First of all this talk that the feds have all this evidence against him is bullsh!t. Plain and simple the feds have NOTHING on him. Anything Barry has said he has said because he chose to. If the feds actually had a bunch of evidence on him you would see WAY more going on and they wouldn't have agreed to keep his testimony secret. Fact is they only have 3rd or 4th person hearsay that he might have had access to certain substances. Fact is what Barry is admitting is what was already known basically. Everyone knew he was drinking this 'clear' liquid, and using this cream. The only news in this story is that in his testimony he admitted they were most likely steroids. Also the timeline of when he was given these 2 substances is well known. He used them openly and anyone could see this. There is no real proof of any knowing steroid use, let alone any real evidence of 'a decade on steroids' that a lot of you are alleging.

That said all of you whipped into a frenzy of 'OMG BARROID ON STEROIDS'. Think about the numbers this man put up ALWAYS. Hell think of the numbers he put up THIS YEAR for god's sake!?!! This past season after Balco and everything broke and they could detect any steroids taken and obviously he wasn't taking them, what did Barry Bonds do? Oh only have the best batting avg in baseball. One of the best slugging pcts of all time. Best on base % of all time and literally destroy everyone else in the league, and nearly carry his undertalented team into the playoffs! If his performance is in the juice then why NOW is he still the undisputed best player in baseball? You saw what happened to Giambi. If Bonds greatness was somehow steroid related it would show. IT HASN'T. I know a lot of people hate the guy, but they are just going to have to accept that regardless of this story and whatever else Bonds name is thrown into he has shown this past season even at 40 he is the best damn player period.

PREACH IT!!!!!!!
jam.gif
jam.gif
jam.gif
 

Eminem

goddamit, Griese!
well as far as baseball, blame the MORONIC players union. they're to blame as far as baseball goes.
 
how about blaming the players? These guys are grownass men. They know what kind of shit and stigma goes along with steroids. And Bonds is an ass. Both he and Giambi acting all high and mighty all preseason, acting insulted that reporters would even bring up steroids, all the while knowing they had testified to using them to a grand jury. No wonder nobody likes his ass.

even going back to the 80s, from Mark Gastineou to Lyle Alzedo, everyone knows what kind of cloud steroids brings, whether they were "officially" banned by MLB or not, and these guys still chose to use them. The fact that Bonds was great BEFORE roids makes it even worse IMO. What a fuckin ego, that being great wasn't enough for him. He chose to use steroids, and associate with a known steroid dealer as his friend/trainer. He brought this on himself. He just tainted his entire legacy. He could have been known as the 4 time MVP, the 500/500 guy regardless, w/o the roids, but now whenever people think of Barry Bonds, they are gonna think of steroids. The asterisk will be there, officially or not.
 

Eminem

goddamit, Griese!
Ninja Scooter said:
how about blaming the players? These guys are grownass men. They know what kind of shit and stigma goes along with steroids. And Bonds is an ass. Both he and Giambi acting all high and mighty all preseason, acting insulted that reporters would even bring up steroids, all the while knowing they had testified to using them to a grand jury. No wonder nobody likes his ass.

even going back to the 80s, from Mark Gastineou to Lyle Alzedo, everyone knows what kind of cloud steroids brings, whether they were "officially" banned by MLB or not, and these guys still chose to use them. The fact that Bonds was great BEFORE roids makes it even worse IMO. What a fuckin ego, that being great wasn't enough for him. He chose to use steroids, and associate with a known steroid dealer as his friend/trainer. He brought this on himself. He just tainted his entire legacy. He could have been known as the 4 time MVP, the 500/500 guy regardless, w/o the roids, but now whenever people think of Barry Bonds, they are gonna think of steroids. The asterisk will be there, officially or not.

oh, no doubt i blame the players first. but as far as policing the issue, the mlb players union is a complete fucking joke.
 
Ninja Scooter said:
even going back to the 80s, from Mark Gastineou to Lyle Alzedo, everyone knows what kind of cloud steroids brings, whether they were "officially" banned by MLB or not, and these guys still chose to use them. The fact that Bonds was great BEFORE roids makes it even worse IMO. What a fuckin ego, that being great wasn't enough for him. He chose to use steroids, and associate with a known steroid dealer as his friend/trainer. He brought this on himself. He just tainted his entire legacy. He could have been known as the 4 time MVP, the 500/500 guy regardless, w/o the roids, but now whenever people think of Barry Bonds, they are gonna think of steroids. The asterisk will be there, officially or not.

The guy was a childhood friend of his who he played with growing up? You think maybe he trusted the guy because of that. I swear the GA-Forums are like the media now over-sensationalizing every story that comes across their door to garner attention. Any small thing now and it causes an uproar
 
BigGreenMat said:
The guy was a childhood friend of his who he played with growing up? You think maybe he trusted the guy because of that. I swear the GA-Forums are like the media now over-sensationalizing every story that comes across their door to garner attention. Any small thing now and it causes an uproar

the guy was a childhood friend, but according to his own words, he didn't start training with the guy until before the 2001 season (coincidentally, the year he hit 73 homeruns). Barry Bonds is an intelligent guy, he's always preached about how he's a workout demon and is very cautious about how he trains. WOuldn't you think he'd be pretty cautious about what he puts into his body?
 
Pimpwerx said:
Babe Ruth played in a different era with differenty calibre talent. Dare I say, anyone who can be a fat piece of shit and still the best player in the league isn't exactly facing the stiffest of competition. I'm not gonna take it all away from him, but give me a fucking break. There are guys in the Negro leagues that made Babe look like crap, and who put up enormous records. Why do we still pine over Babe Ruth to this day?

That said, Bonds is probably guilty, but I don't care. I don't think he's alone, and would wager that a majority of players use something, or have cycled roids at some point in their lives. Roids are used all the way down to high school, it would be naive to think otherwise. And this bullshit about the asterisk is stupid too. You think hitters are the only ones using roids? Don't think greater arm strength benefits a pitcher too? The whole game is screwed up, and it doesn't stop at baseball. I guess this is good in a way, b/c now we can stop pretending that the pros are really these fantastic athletes with god-given physiques. From football to hoops to baseball and hockey, you'll find juicers. But what's the end result of this big expose gonna be? Are players gonna stop using? Doubtful. Might as well just make them legal. Hell, they made it legal in horse racing. PEACE.



if babe ruth was so "bad" how come it tok over 70+ years to break all of his records?
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Bat said:
As I already said, i'm comparing Bonds to Matsui purely in terms of their hitting stats, which are comparable. I'm not talking about his other skills earlier in his careers (which I also already mentioned).

And of course steroids helped his AVG and OBP. Steroids made him an all around much better hitter....AB that would normally end in long fly balls started becoming HRs (which would increase your AVG and OBP). In turn, that led to pitchers not giving him any good pitches, which is why he has so many walks (and is responsible for the unheard of OBP he racked up). Furthermore, your strength directly effects your bat speed, which not only gives you power but lets you swing later on pitches, reducing your strike outs. The increased strength that steroids allow make you a better all-around hitter, no questions asked.

And to somehow think that professional baseball players (who have taken batting practice every day since they were 6) can suddenly gain new mental talents and better hand-eye coordination overnight at age 36 is just an absolutely ridiculous argument. I mean....you can't really believe that?

I agree that Bonds was a great, great player before he took steroids...but your underestimating what effects they had on his hitting ability.

EDIT- Also, the stuff the goverment has about Bonds using steroids isn't some 3rd and 4th hand sources...they are papers confiscated from Anderson's home that have Bonds name right on them and steroids he was taking...calenders and such. That's pretty damning evidence. They are not showing any of it yet, of course, because they will use it in the upcoming BALCO trial.

Actually, steroids don't make you an all around better hitter. That's quite laughable. Anyone who has played baseball can tell you that more muscle doesn't make you a better hitter.

Causes a reduced strikeout rate? :lol

Giambi averaged 100 strikeouts a year during his four year stint with steroids. ONE-FUCKING-HUNDRED.

Ken Caminiti, another steroid user, averaged over 100 strikeouts a year during his stint with steroids, including his MVP season.

Neither had the OBP of Bonds.

Steroids don't help with your average, strikeouts or OBP. Most of the players never deviated that much from their usual output, just in HRs, RBIs and SLG, the statistics steroids will help you in.

That argument is ludicrous.
 
but when you have the power to turn a flyball into a towering homerun, that can affect all those things Willco. Changes the strikezone, makes pitchers pitch differently to him.
 
Ruth shattered his home-run record in 1920, belting 54 (no other player had more than 19). Only one team, the Philadelphia Phillies, hit more homers.

Webster's should include that as the definition of "dominant" in their dictionary.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
Eminem said:
Willco, would you * Bonds?

I would asterisk Bonds? No. I don't think you should asterisk any statistics.

I do, however, believe if all these charges levied against him are true, he should forfeit all his MVP awards from 2001-2004. Any any other awards based on his hitting statistics.
 
Willco makes some valid points. Bonds has the best eye in baseball. Nobody is even close. The man can pick up the spin of the baseball and recognize the type of pitch with unmatched ability. The guy hit more homers than he struck out last season! That's insane! However, the thing is that the juice, and specifically HGH, allows him to increase his strength, recover faster, and allows for a longer career (and productive) that he might not otherwise have had without these steroids.

That is the real problem with him taking these steroids. It might not be an advantage for him stats wise in today's game since so many players are on it, but it really does cheapen what he's done when one looks at the legends like Aaron, Ruth and Mays.
 

Bat

Member
Wilco, just because two known steroid users who never had any plate discipline to begin with were big on SO doesn't mean that using steroids won't indirectly result in fewer strikouts for a disciplined slugger like Bonds.

You never even argued my assertion that since Bonds is such a homerun threat, pitchers don't give him many hittable pitches because they won't take the risk of it getting blasted out of there. Thus, he gets a ton of walks from that. The reason Bonds is getting so many walks (and thus has a very low SO total and very high OBP) is because of his power hitting, which is directly affected by steroids. The steroids make pitchers pitch to him differently, which makes him a more productive all-around hitter. I don't see how that is in any way "ludicrous".

Here is what SI's Tom Verducci says about it:

SI.com: What can these drugs do specifically for baseball players?

Verducci: You take a good baseball player and you can make him great by improving his bat speed, his strength and his ability to train and recover. And that is not even getting into the proven results of HGH on eyesight. There are tangible benefits. That's why athletes are using this stuff. That's why track and field athletes are setting these records. It works.

That speaks for itself...
 

bionic77

Member
Has anyone said anything about Mark Macguire? He was more steroids then man at the end. Seems like all the HRs of the past 15 years need an * next to them.
 

Salt&Slug

Banned
Roids don't make a man a better hitter, or a better baseball player? So what're they taking the roids for, then? Huh? As an antidepressant?
 

Future Trunks

lemme tell you something son, this guy is SO FARKING HUGE HE'LL FLEX AND DESTROY THE SUN no shit
Barry...hook a brutha up.

**slaps vein in his biceps like a heroin addict**
 

Shinobi

Member
DCX said:
....speechless, i really wonder what the fallout of this will be...MLB can't come off looking like punks in front of the NFl and NBA ( NHL is behind even NASCAR right about now )

DCX

:lol You say even as if it's some sort of great surprise. NASCAR has been the number two sports television product behind the NFL for years, and it isn't even close.





Meier said:
ahaha best news ever. Can we please stop calling this man the greatest hitter of all time? Please. The best hitters in baseball are 2 Spanish guys and a dude from Japan. Albert Pujols, Alex Rodriguez and Ichiro Suzuki.

And what makes you think they're innocent? And Iciro? Bitch please...at least mention someone with a bit of pop in his bat as well, like Ted Williams, not to mention someone who's had more then four years in the league. Bonds had OBA's of .456 and .458 in '92 and '93, and slugged .624, .677 and .647 from '92 to '94. So he was putting up world beating numbers even before the alleged 'roid period began.




Pimpwerx said:
Babe Ruth played in a different era with differenty calibre talent. Dare I say, anyone who can be a fat piece of shit and still the best player in the league isn't exactly facing the stiffest of competition. I'm not gonna take it all away from him, but give me a fucking break. There are guys in the Negro leagues that made Babe look like crap, and who put up enormous records. Why do we still pine over Babe Ruth to this day?

That said, Bonds is probably guilty, but I don't care. I don't think he's alone, and would wager that a majority of players use something, or have cycled roids at some point in their lives. Roids are used all the way down to high school, it would be naive to think otherwise. And this bullshit about the asterisk is stupid too. You think hitters are the only ones using roids? Don't think greater arm strength benefits a pitcher too? The whole game is screwed up, and it doesn't stop at baseball. I guess this is good in a way, b/c now we can stop pretending that the pros are really these fantastic athletes with god-given physiques. From football to hoops to baseball and hockey, you'll find juicers. But what's the end result of this big expose gonna be? Are players gonna stop using? Doubtful. Might as well just make them legal. Hell, they made it legal in horse racing. PEACE.

Good to see some people on this board still have a fucking brain. Listen to what Conte said...half the league is on some sort of juice. Which means in a league where half the league were using the same sort of additives that Bonds was, he was still MILES ahead of the pack.

Also, someone's gonna have to show me some scienctific data regarding how much yardage 'roids can add to a fly ball. It isn't like the majority of Bonds' home runs have landed in the first or second row, where 'roids might've given it the extra five or ten feet. The vast majority of his home runs have been absolutely tatooed. Smashed, demolished, destroyed, sent into fucking orbit. If 'roids is shown to add 70 or 80 feet to the average fly ball then I guess that's a problem, but someone needs to cite that evidence first. My point being that if he wasn't on the juice, 90% of those fly balls would be home runs anyway.





Donkeypuncher said:
That is the real problem with him taking these steroids. It might not be an advantage for him stats wise in today's game since so many players are on it, but it really does cheapen what he's done when one looks at the legends like Aaron, Ruth and Mays.

Actually, the real problem with steroids is that it'll kill you. Caminiti's dead. Flo Jo's dead. The former was an admitted 'roid user, the latter was a heavily suspected one. Both didn't even see the age of 42, despite being top athletes in their professions. I won't even get into the wrestling deaths from the past seven years. If these people choose to use the shit and die early as a result, that's their problem.
 

Shinobi

Member
This editorial echos a lot of what I feel, not to mention giving some solid theories as to why Bonds numbers are as good as they are, instead of just saying "JUICE!!" as if anyone really understands the shit.



So Bonds cheated? Spare me the criticisms
Even if he did know, it still wasn't against the rules

Jeff Roberson / AP
Barry Bonds may have taken steroids, but he didn't do anything against the rules of baseball, writes columnist Mike Celizic.
COMMENTARY
By Mike Celizic
NBCSports.com contributor
Updated: 3:24 a.m. ET Dec. 3, 2004

I don’t know where to go with this any more, nor do I know what else to say.

But it’s no surprise that Barry Bonds took something to make him bigger and stronger and better. It’s no surprise Jason Giambi took human growth hormones and steroids. And it’s no surprise this is allegedly the biggest story in sports since big stories were invented.

It’s a big story because we are all hypocrites. People cheat. We know that, and still we deny it. So when we find out that what we both know and deny is true, we have to react with shock and amazement. We can’t help it. We’re wired to react that way.

So Barry Bonds may have cheated? That’s a story? Like we didn’t know?

Give me a break. Finding out that Bonds may have taken banned substances — even if you want to buy into his excuse that he didn’t know he was doing anything wrong — is a surprise on the level of discovering that the sun rises in the east, that two-year-olds like sweets, that fox terriers bark at strangers and that it’s a bad idea to tell a woman she’s got a fat backside.

You can’t even talk about taking away his records or diminishing them. He did what he was allowed to do. No one can get punished for that. If you take away his MVPs and home runs, then take away Don Sutton’s and Gaylord Perry’s Hall of Fame plaques. Take way Norm Cash’s batting title. Take away Mike Scott’s perfect game. They all cheated, just as surely as Bonds and Giambi did, as surely as Ken Caminiti did. As surely as more players that you want to know about did.

What Bonds and these others did was deeply rooted in the game. Pete Rose and most players of his generation couldn’t take batting practice without first downing a handful of “greenies” — amphetamines. Willie Mays kept a bottle of “red juice” in his locker — the same stuff as greenies, but in a liquid form. We can’t say Hank Aaron was clean, because we don’t know what stimulants he took, if any. We can’t vouch for anyone’s purity.

That’s the reality, folks. And if Bonds is now revealed as a cheater, where is the element of surprise? We’ve known he wasn’t natural for half a decade or more. But we kept watching him and writing about him and calling him the greatest thing since pine tar.

So did he go from great to a fraud? Or did we go from incredibly naïve to equally judgmental?

We have no right to condemn Bonds. Not after we marveled at his talent. Not after we declared him one of the best of all time. And especially not after he’s admitted to doing things that baseball never — until last year — said he couldn’t do.

This, friends, is not a story. Barry Bonds, we learn, took things that made him bigger and stronger. He continues to deny culpability, saying he didn’t know what he was taking were illegal steroids.

All he’s saying now — or said to a grand jury — it that he followed the advice of a coach, didn’t ask exactly what he was ingesting and rubbing on his body and got bigger than he could get naturally. And he didn’t think it was illegal.

What balderdash. It’s like aiming a gun at someone, pulling the trigger, watching that person fall, then protesting that you didn’t know the gun was loaded.

The denials are meaningless. But, so, too, are the charges. Bonds took “cream” and “clear.” Then he hit a whole lot of home runs and won so many MVP’s you got the feeling he was playing a different game than everyone else.

You can call it cheating. But baseball called it legal. There was no law against taking every drug in the CVS warehouse, no law against doing whatever you could to get stronger and better. There is still virtually no law; you get tested once a year on a date you either know exactly or are alerted to.

If you can’t dodge that test, you’re dumber than a driver who sees a cop sitting on the side of the road a half mile ahead and still blows past him at the speed limit plus 20.

It’s not just baseball, it’s life. If you’re running for president and you can get the Supreme Court to help you to a win, you do it. Or if it takes cemeteries in Chicago and Jersey City to vote en masse for you, you accept the votes.

I’m not saying it’s fair. It just is.

If there were a drug that could make us write like Mark Twain — my hero — or H. L Mencken, whose name is as foreign to most kids in this business as Iron Man McGinnity’s is to baseball players, don’t kid yourselves. We’d all be taking it.

A lot of writers of my generation grew up when Gonzo journalism and Hunter S. Thompson ruled. We took the same drugs and tried to write the same way. We couldn’t, because Thompson was a great writer before his first hit or toke or snort or whatever he was doing. We weren’t going to catch him, no matter how stupid we tried to make ourselves through liberal application of controlled substances.

If you were a little older, Red Smith was the standard, and Red never took anything stronger that vodka and tonic. I’ve poured down a lot of vodka’s and tonic — no fruit — because that’s the way Red drank it, and also because there might be a vitamin in that slice of lime, and you don’t want one of those to enter your system. But despite this, I can’t write three words as good as any three Red put down.

The point is if you’re good, you’re good. Nothing you take is going to make you bad. It might kill you early, but it won’t take away your talent. And if there is something you can take to make you better, the great ones are still going to be great and the good ones are still going to be willing to mortgage their souls to be in the same area code as their betters.

Barry Bonds is a great baseball player. Last year, he hit 45 home runs and struck out 41 times. I don’t know what he did or took to help the balls fly out of the park. But I do know there is no drug that can keep you from striking out. If Bonds had played in Ruth’s era, he’d have hit more home runs than he hits now.

That’s a fact, because in Ruth’s day, they didn’t put you on base two out of every five times you came to the plate. They didn’t walk you intentionally nearly 100 times a year. They didn’t have relief pitchers who could get God out four out of five times.

What they had was starting pitchers getting tired who threw the ball over the plate and made you beat them. They had pitchers who didn’t nibble in the second inning. Ruth hit all those home runs because he got a lot of pitches to hit. Bonds hit his despite having no pitches to hit.

But here’s something few people talk about, and it has as much to do with Bonds’ success as any drug he may have taken, wittingly or not. It’s that piece of armor on his elbow. Bonds and other hitters can hang over the plate and dig in with no fear of getting hit, because the armor stops it from hurting. And, if a pitcher throws too far inside, the pitcher can get thrown out of the game.

So if you want Bonds or anyone else to play fair, forget the drugs. Tell him he can’t wear that pad on his arm and elbow. Then tell the pitchers to go ahead and throw high and tight, the same way Don Drysdale did, without fear of ejection and/or suspension. All the ‘roids in the world won’t protect your elbow, and they won’t make it easier to hit the dirt to keep from getting hit.

Baseball could do a lot of things. One is to have a meaningful policy on drugs and cheating. Another is to make batters stand up there without body armor. A third is to give pitchers the right to throw inside.

Adopt any of those policies, and I’ll care about Bonds again. But don’t bore me with sanctimonious drivel about abuses everyone knew existed. Bonds has done what he’s done under the rules of the game. If the game doesn’t like it, it can change the rules. Otherwise, everyone should just shut up.
 

Eminem

goddamit, Griese!
Shinobi, you're one of the better posters here, and one of the the better sports clique posters here...

but, come on:

It’s a big story because we are all hypocrites. People cheat. We know that, and still we deny it. So when we find out that what we both know and deny is true, we have to react with shock and amazement. We can’t help it. We’re wired to react that way.

So Barry Bonds may have cheated? That’s a story? Like we didn’t know?

I read that and stopped. Sorry to say, but many, many, many people didn't think Bonds roided. This is a huge deal. An opinion on his "defense" of not knowing what they were is ludicrous, almost everyone knows that.

But, I don't care if they didn't help him one bit. Why did he take them? EVERYONE knows he knew what he was taking from Anderson...he was a great player without them. Why did he have to start?

Fuck him. He knew what he was doing, and no matter if it helped him or not, he's a gigantic moron for using them anyway. As is any MLB player that does...but he's going for the holiest of holy records. Way to ruin his career.

He'll go down as a controversial steriod user. And I am glad. Treat the public like fools. You deserve what you get.
 

Willco

Hollywood Square
While I argue that Bonds shouldn't be thrown to the wayside or his records discounted, I think he cheated and he brought this public shitstorm upon himself.

I think we always had a silent understanding that he used performance enhancing drugs, but the fact that he's trying to insult everyone's intelligence makes it just that much harder to swallow.

We're not naive. We see that your head has ballooned to the size of the Death Star (that's no moon!). We know you hit the ball farther.

Again, how sad is it that he felt the need to manufacture a legacy when he could've been one of the all-time greats on his own merits. Hell, if he hadn't signed with San Francisco and been forced to sit in that hitter's hellhole that's known as Pac Bell, he probably could've gotten his home runs the way everyone else does -- good 'ole elbow grease.

Now nobody will ever consider his records legitimate and if he had an ounce of credibility or respect for the game, he'd retire.
 

Shinobi

Member
Eminem said:
Shinobi, you're one of the better posters here, and one of the the better sports clique posters here...

but, come on:



I read that and stopped. Sorry to say, but many, many, many people didn't think Bonds roided. This is a huge deal. An opinion on his "defense" of not knowing what they were is ludicrous, almost everyone knows that.

But, I don't care if they didn't help him one bit. Why did he take them? EVERYONE knows he knew what he was taking from Anderson...he was a great player without them. Why did he have to start?

Fuck him. He knew what he was doing, and no matter if it helped him or not, he's a gigantic moron for using them anyway. As is any MLB player that does...but he's going for the holiest of holy records. Way to ruin his career.

He'll go down as a controversial steriod user. And I am glad. Treat the public like fools. You deserve what you get.

Why did Carl Lewis juice up when he was on his way to being the greatest track and field athlete of all time? Why did Ben Johnson take roids when he already had the quickest reaction time to a starter's pistol ever recorded, and a ready-made sprinting body? Why did Sosa cork his bat? To get an edge. Any edge. The best don't simply do things "by the book", when you know half the fucking league is taking the same shit.

If Michael Jordan could take a pill that could give him the skills and body of his 35 year old self, he'd take it tomorrow and be wearing the jersey of a NBA team on Monday. Does he need to do that? Nope. But he didn't need to make his last comeback either.

When you're driven to succeed, you're going to take every edge you can to win. Is talking trash really playing it even? Nope. Technically speaking things should be left to the play on the court. But talking trash is part of gaining an edge, ANY edge, be it mental over your opponent, or a way to psyche up yourself. That's a simple example, but it all ties in...more athletes then we'll admit to will do whatever it takes to win.

And again, Bonds didn't "cheat", because steroids was 100% legal until two years ago. You can disagree all you like, you can philosphize all you like, but that's just a fact. Doesn't matter what I think either, though as the columnist pointed out if we're gonna talk about keeping Bonds out of the hall, then throw Gaylord Perry out on his ass first.

Willco's right though...Bonds is doing NOTHING to help his cause. Though I don't know why he made those denials to begin with. Should've just said no comment and been done with it. It isn't that much different to Pete Rose's situation...before he came clean, most people believed he should be in the hall of fame. But because of the way he came clean (he basically made a nice buck off of doing so), more people are against him now then ever, and certainly the vast majority of the surviving hall famers want nothing to do with him.

When you're caught with your hand in the cookie jar, or caught with your pants down, then pull the hand out, or pull the pants up, say sorry, and move on. Don't insult the intelligence of a populace that were looking for any reason to hate your ass to begin with.
 

DJ_Tet

Banned
Shinobi said:
And again, Bonds didn't "cheat", because steroids was 100% legal until two years ago.



I agree with your general statement, but steroids were 100% illegal two years ago, and many years before that. Just because baseball didn't test for them doesn't make them legal. They are and were extremely illegal, which is why the federal government is involved in the first place.
 

Bat

Member
A few points....


1) The "this wasn't illegal till last year!" assertion is a huge myth going around. Steroids (especially testosterone, which the cream and the clear were based on) were illegal, they just weren't tested for. Not like testing would make a difference, anyways, because these drugs are designed to evade and negate testing. That doesn't somehow make them legal though, no matter how you slice it. Furthermore, even if it wasn't written expressed in the rules that they are illegal, these are still illegal drugs by law. Hell, the rule book doesn't say anything against hiring someone to kill the other team, but that doesn't mean that doing that would not be cheating.

2) After Wilco's point about Giambi's SO not falling after taking steroids, I looked at Giambi's non-power stats after he took steroids (which I assumed to be the time when his HR totals jumped). Between the 1997 and 2001, Giambi's HR jumped from 20 to 38 (with a peak of 43 in 2000). Expectedly, his SLG went from .495 to .660.

However, his non-power numbers all took similar (huge) jumps. OBP went from .362 to .477 and AVG went from .293 to .342. The numbers don't lie.

3) People forget that these drugs are also really, really dangerous. Especially for baseball players, who have really long careers, using steroids to make your career wills shorten your life significantly. In 10-15 years, we are gonna see a bunch of really prominent guys drop like flies from mysterious deaths.

4) Yes, no one should have been suprised by these revelations (I certainly wasn't) but that doesn't make them insignificant. I can't remember how many columns and TV commentray (i'm thinking of Wilbon on PTI specifically right now) have made the point that Bonds/Marion Jones/etc. have never failed a drug tests. These admissions make the constant denial (even among people who I think deep down did know what was happening) of the problem impossible anymore.
 

Shinobi

Member
Yeah I know...I meant legal in the confines of Major League Baseball. Or put another way, MLB didn't define steroid use as being against their rules. Retroactive punishment wouldn't last five seconds in a court of law, so people need to just drop the whole asterisk/hall of fame non-entry idea...it's nothing but a pipe dream.

I find the government's involvement in steroids now to be pretty suspicious as well. There's nothing new going on here...we've had admitted steroid users for decades, and a TON of whispers regarding what the US Track and Field team were doing during the '80's and '90's, yet nobody said shit for fear of getting sued. In fact, the few athletes that did test positive were going to court to sue for the tests to get overturned. Everyone knew that was going on, but where was the outcry? Nowhere. Hell, even when Big Mac and Sosa were doing their thing in '98, with bodies that were double the size of what they were a decade before, only a handful of people had the nuts to say anything. But as soon as Barry Bonds really got going, it's now become an issue? Come on...something ain't right there.
 

Bat

Member
Shinobi said:
Yeah I know...I meant legal in the confines of Major League Baseball. Or put another way, MLB didn't define steroid use as being against their rules.


That's simply not true. They did, they just didn't test for it because the MLBPA used the privacy argument.
 
Shinobi said:
Yeah I know...I meant legal in the confines of Major League Baseball. Or put another way, MLB didn't define steroid use as being against their rules. Retroactive punishment wouldn't last five seconds in a court of law, so people need to just drop the whole asterisk/hall of fame non-entry idea...it's nothing but a pipe dream.

I find the government's involvement in steroids now to be pretty suspicious as well. There's nothing new going on here...we've had admitted steroid users for decades, and a TON of whispers regarding what the US Track and Field team were doing during the '80's and '90's, yet nobody said shit for fear of getting sued. In fact, the few athletes that did test positive were going to court to sue for the tests to get overturned. Everyone knew that was going on, but where was the outcry? Nowhere. Hell, even when Big Mac and Sosa were doing their thing in '98, with bodies that were double the size of what they were a decade before, only a handful of people had the nuts to say anything. But as soon as Barry Bonds really got going, it's now become an issue? Come on...something ain't right there.


its all got to do with Balco. Sosa, and McGuire i guess were smart enough to get their roids from somewhere else. I don't follow the track and field stuff much, but to my knowleddge with guys like Camenetti and Canseco, it wasn't this organized. When you've got a million dollar corporation that has records of giving illegal drugs to superstar athletes, or course the shits gonna hit the fan when the Feds start investigating.
 

Shinobi

Member
Yeah I guess...the funny thing is that if someone hadn't sent a syringe of the stuff to someone, no one would've known shit, Marion Jones would still be a queen, Giambi would still look like the Michelin Man, and Bonds and Sheffield would still be best buds. :lol The way people found out about them is probably what's added to the intrigue, mainly because it raises the possibility of similar operations doing similiar things.



Bat said:
That's simply not true. They did, they just didn't test for it because the MLBPA used the privacy argument.

Far as I'm concerned it amounts to the same thing...not the players problem if the league is dickless.
 

DJ_Tet

Banned
I told the whole forum about this in July, and it was ignored. I'm telling you, Marion Jones ex husband, shot putter CJ Jones, was the one who sent the vial in. He found out Jones was getting railed and training with Tim Montgomery, and sent their asses up the river. CJ was caught before the Olympics in 2000, and has been bitter ever since his wife at the time won 5 medals. Victor Conte last night only confirmed my suspicions about CJ. Marion Jones and "Tiny Tim" were two of the names he named on 20/20.


Here is the original thread that was ignored at the time. I'm over 90% positive that CJ Hunter was the whistle-blower in this scandal. I told you guys on the old forum, and I told ya here.
 

Future Trunks

lemme tell you something son, this guy is SO FARKING HUGE HE'LL FLEX AND DESTROY THE SUN no shit
DJ_Tet said:
I told the whole forum about this in July, and it was ignored. I'm telling you, Marion Jones ex husband, shot putter CJ Jones, was the one who sent the vial in. He found out Jones was getting railed and training with Tim Montgomery, and sent their asses up the river. CJ was caught before the Olympics in 2000, and has been bitter ever since his wife at the time won 5 medals. Victor Conte last night only confirmed my suspicions about CJ. Marion Jones and "Tiny Tim" were two of the names he named on 20/20.


Here is the original thread that was ignored at the time. I'm over 90% positive that CJ Hunter was the whistle-blower in this scandal. I told you guys on the old forum, and I told ya here.

I thought his name was CJ Hunter.

I just find it funny that you change his last name every time you say his name in a new post. :lol First Williams, now Jones, then Hunter finally. :)
 

DJ_Tet

Banned
Future Trunks said:
I thought his name was CJ Hunter.

I just find it funny that you change his last name every time you say his name in a new post. :lol First Williams, now Jones, then Hunter finally. :)


:lol

I've been drinking but my point stands. His name IS CJ Hunter. It SHOULD HAVE BEEN CJ Jones. And I went to high school with a soccer player/shot putter named CJ Williams.

CJ Hunter is who/whom I've been talking about though. My bad ;)
 

Future Trunks

lemme tell you something son, this guy is SO FARKING HUGE HE'LL FLEX AND DESTROY THE SUN no shit
You're right, m'man. It just stuck out to me as I was reading your post, it was like something from a comedy sketch. :lol

This goes to show that Marion chose the wrong Two-letter acronym....:(

FT, Marion! Not CJ! Then came Tim, c*ckblocking the FT-Marion Starchild..... >:|
 

Bat

Member
Shinobi said:
Far as I'm concerned it amounts to the same thing...not the players problem if the league is dickless.

That's like saying betting on baseball is legal (in the game) because the MLB doesn't do random checks on each player's bank accounts twice a year. Steroid testing is needed because of the widespread nature of its use, but its nonexistance doesn't somehow make using steroids legal. Not testing is the equivalence of MLB looking the other way, but if your caught, your caught, and it is still illegal and against the rules.
 

Shinobi

Member
Bat said:
That's like saying betting on baseball is legal (in the game) because the MLB doesn't do random checks on each player's bank accounts twice a year. Steroid testing is needed because of the widespread nature of its use, but its nonexistance doesn't somehow make using steroids legal. Not testing is the equivalence of MLB looking the other way, but if your caught, your caught, and it is still illegal and against the rules.

The problem here is proof. They had proof of Pete Rose gambling on baseball for years thanks to documents that went back several years (though they only needed one to ice him). But how do they prove that Bonds was 'roiding up in say, 1997, even though it's optically obvious? When it comes down to it, America is all about the courts. Unless they can find documentation or other strong evidence that Bonds was taking this stuff in the 90's, there isn't much they can do. And so far he's passed the tests that have been held. As of now, I don't think MLB has a legal leg to stand on.
 

Shinobi

Member
Then again, I say that as if MLB has to deal with their game in legal terms. It's their game, they can do what the fuck they want with it. It's just gonna be tricky for them to determine just when you start discounting Bonds' home runs. And then you have to look at the fact that they did nothing with McGuire, even though he was taking andro for an unspecified period, and even though his body ballooned as much as Bonds did over the course of his career. If MLB decides to do something about Bonds' home runs while doing nothing to McGuire's, you and I both know what that will lead to...


ph_revjjacksonjr.jpg


www_republicansforsharpton_com_03.jpg
 

Bat

Member
Shinobi said:
The problem here is proof. They had proof of Pete Rose gambling on baseball for years thanks to documents that went back several years (though they only needed one to ice him). But how do they prove that Bonds was 'roiding up in say, 1997, even though it's optically obvious? When it comes down to it, America is all about the courts. Unless they can find documentation or other strong evidence that Bonds was taking this stuff in the 90's, there isn't much they can do. And so far he's passed the tests that have been held. As of now, I don't think MLB has a legal leg to stand on.

Yes, of course. Finding proof is the problem, I agree with that. I think they'll dig up stuff, though, as the feds apparently have a ton of papers about his steroid use (that they confiscated from his trainer). And I don't think they have to do anything about the records and all, but people will always consider steroid use when reviewing those of Bonds (and all the others too).
 
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