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[Carl2291]

Some of you lots posts in here are hilarious to read after just reading the thread about Britain being one of the least racist countries in Europe.

We've had literally millions of well integrated "browns" and "blacks", as you like to say, for decades. Furthermore, to directly call millions of voters racist because they wanted some kind of control on immigration is disgusting. Just because Nigel Farage paraded some nazi-like poster doesn't mean anyone voting leave agreed with him on that. He (and UKIP) was highly criticized for it, by every side of the argument. The official Leave campaign distanced itself from Farage and UKIP for a reason.

The concern towards EU immigration started to gather steam long before any refugee crisis and "floods of brown people". You can see this through the rise of UKIP in British politics. The 2009 and especially the 2014 EP elections speak volumes in regards to UKIP's rise pre refugee crisis.

If you want to see how the British look at racists, I ask you to look at the failures of the BNP, the National Front, Britain First and the EDL to name a few.

 

[RenditMan]

You actually just kind of helped cement my argument. Cheers.

You need to accept people vote for their own reasons, it's their vote. A lot vote labour because their parents did. Some vote labour because of Thatcher. Others vote Conservative because of benefits and stuff.

Are these reasons I feel important when voting? No, definitely not, but I wouldn't pigeon hole labour voters as Thatcher hating sheep either in an attempt to make sense of peoples inclination to vote a certain way.

 

[Joni]

The concern towards EU immigration started to gather steam long before any refugee crisis and "floods of brown people". You can see this through the rise of UKIP in British politics. The 2009 and especially the 2014 EP elections speak volumes in regards to UKIP's rise pre refugee crisis.

In that case we'll call them hilariously stupid idiots for not realizing the UK could already curb EU immigration. Just like the other countries actually do. Of course, we could also go into the skewed nature of that other thread but that was already explained there.

 

[Stinkles]

Some of you lots posts in here are hilarious to read after just reading the thread about Britain being one of the least racist countries in Europe.

We've had literally millions of well integrated "browns" and "blacks", as you like to say, for decades. Furthermore, to directly call millions of voters racist because they wanted some kind of control on immigration is disgusting. Just because Nigel Farage paraded some nazi-like poster doesn't mean anyone voting leave agreed with him on that. He (and UKIP) was highly criticized for it, by every side of the argument. The official Leave campaign distanced itself from Farage and UKIP for a reason.

The concern towards EU immigration started to gather steam long before any refugee crisis and "floods of brown people". You can see this through the rise of UKIP in British politics. The 2009 and especially the 2014 EP elections speak volumes in regards to UKIP's rise pre refugee crisis.

If you want to see how the British look at racists, I ask you to look at the failures of the BNP, the National Front, Britain First and the EDL to name a few.

I'm glad you find it hilarious. But racism doesn't have to be a skinhead stomping on someone with Bovver Boots. Or the National Front demanding that the country forces expatriation of Pakistanis. It can be soft. And provincial. And dog whistle-y. And in fact IS. And maybe you live in a part of Britain where nobody complains about the Polish carpenter stealing jobs, or Aussies puking in their hedge, or "sheikhs" buying all the mansions in Chelsea. But it covers a tremendous gamut of feelings and intensity. And personally I think it's jingoism rather than ethnically driven "pure" racism, but the success of Farage and May and brexit itself is backed by context, blunt and nuanced.

The Brexit campaign was fueled by a bunch of disproven malarkey and short sighted reactionist rhetoric. And this thread is about a concrete example of things Remain folks carefully and truthfully warned about.


The contraexamples are thin, and apparently have a twenty year waiting period to see how true they were.

 

[tuxfool]

In that case we'll call them hilariously stupid idiots for not realizing the UK could already curb EU immigration. Just like the other countries actually do. Of course, we could also go into the skewed nature of that other thread but that was already explained there.

Whatever other reasons you could summon don't paint them in a good light either. Stupid, full of themselves, short sighted, suffering from nationwide victim complexes.

 

[Air Zombie Meat]

I see it as a cocktail of xenophobia and nationalism. Also the bogus idea of british exceptionalism.

 

[RenditMan]

In that case we'll call them hilariously stupid idiots for not realizing the UK could already curb EU immigration. Just like the other countries actually do. Of course, we could also go into the skewed nature of that other thread but that was already explained there.

You're right actually. Blairs labour government actively encouraged it and he'd laugh at anyone who tried to suggest it was starting to cause problems. A decade later and cheap labour fed on government subsidies was the norm and the economy became hooked on it to the point that any sign of wage rises in the market gets met with screams of "labour shortage," by the large corporations.

 

[Stinkles]

You're right actually. Blairs labour government actively encouraged it and he'd laugh at anyone who tried to suggest it was starting to cause problems. A decade later and cheap labour fed on government subsidies was the norm and the economy became hooked on it to the point that any sign of wage rises in the market gets met with screams of "labour shortage," by the large corporations.

Are there receipts for this?

 

[Joni]

You're right actually. Blairs labour government actively encouraged it and he'd laugh at anyone who tried to suggest it was starting to cause problems. A decade later and cheap labour fed on government subsidies was the norm and the economy became hooked on it to the point that any sign of wage rises in the market gets met with screams of "labour shortage," by the large corporations.

If only the British had elected a non-Labour PM that could have changed that. After 7 years of Tory government, the UK doesn't get to blame the Labour government anymore. The Tory didn't care either. And that is the simple truth. The British have now given more power to the people that didn't want to bother fixing the problem about which the British are complaining. Imagine a world where Trump in 2023 is still blaming Obama for his failures, that is a Tory voter in 2017 looking at Labour.

 

[avaya]

Are there receipts for this?

There are no receipts.

 

[RenditMan]

Are there receipts for this?

I lived through it, did you?

The guy is still asked about it today.

 

[tuxfool]

Imagine a world where Trump in 2023 is still blaming Obama for his failures, that is a Tory voter in 2017 looking at Labour.

Not hard to imagine.

Though it should be noted that Conservatives all around the world are never about personal responsibility. It is always the others' fault for their problems.

 

[Joni]

I lived through it, did you?

The guy is still asked about it today.

 

[2MF]

They'll make some movies and parodies based on Brexit, should bring in enough

How about asking Rowan Atkinson to play David Cameron

Or Theresa May really:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ugh-photo-opportunity-in-school-a7582231.html

 

[RenditMan]

If only the British had elected a non-Labour PM that could have changed that. After 7 years of Tory government, the UK doesn't get to blame the Labour government anymore. The Tory didn't care either. And that is the simple truth. The British have now given more power to the people that didn't want to bother fixing the problem about which the British are complaining. Imagine a world where Trump in 2023 is still blaming Obama for his failures, that is a Tory voter in 2017 looking at Labour.

I voted for Blair twice before I started to think he might not be the best thing going forward tbf.

 

[RenditMan]

Are there receipts for this?

Is it really that difficult to Google Tony Blair immigration policies?

 

[plagiarize]

If only the British had elected a non-Labour PM that could have changed that. After 7 years of Tory government, the UK doesn't get to blame the Labour government anymore. The Tory didn't care either. And that is the simple truth. The British have now given more power to the people that didn't want to bother fixing the problem about which the British are complaining. Imagine a world where Trump in 2023 is still blaming Obama for his failures, that is a Tory voter in 2017 looking at Labour.

If Trump gets reelected we won't have to imagine that. *shiver*

Is it really that difficult to Google Tony Blair immigration policies?

If challenged for the source of a claim on NeoGAF it is good etiquette to provide it. You cannot expect us to do the research into whether or not your claim is true. You want us to accept it? Provide a source.

 

[Muffin1611]

Or Theresa May really:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/u...ugh-photo-opportunity-in-school-a7582231.html

She's blown away by friggin Lego NXT robots, really

She can come to my college and play with them all day if she wants, maybe she'll think about this whole Brexit thing

 

[Billy_Pilgrim]

It's almost as if Project Fear was nothing but facts

 

[CyclopsRock]

I agree with those arguing that Britain is one of the *least* racist places in the world, for a number of reasons. Issues with immigration doesn't require racism, especially when the immigration in question is from prodominantly white majority countries.

Anyway, I think some of the money issues will turn on the intelligence issue. Most of the EUs intelligence communities are absolute horse piss and whilst ours isn't quite what it used to be, it's long been the best in the EU. Given the issues faced in the EU, it's not hard to see how this could end up being a significant bargaining chip.

 

[fanboi]

Is it really that difficult to Google Tony Blair immigration policies?

I like this argument since you imply it is very easy to find the information needed, then it shouldnt be a problem providing a source youself.

 

[KingSnake]

I like this argument since you imply it is very easy to find the information needed, then it shouldnt be a problem providing a source youself.

He hasn't provided one single source for his statements. It's a pointless discussion. It's better to ignore him all together.

 

[RenditMan]

If Trump gets reelected we won't have to imagine that. *shiver*



If challenged for the source of a claim on NeoGAF it is good etiquette to provide it. You cannot expect us to do the research into whether or not your claim is true. You want us to accept it? Provide a source.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=...+policies&gfe_rd=cr&ei=DEIKWY-OL5T98we6qIOADQ

Literally hundreds of articles on the subject, seriously. The guy encouraged mass migration, it was too much too quick. Some even blame his choices for the rise in the Brexit sentiment.

People are still writing about it today from all sides of the political fence.

I should note its very easy in political discussion to demand proof as a means of trying to kill the debate as singular sources are easy to dismiss. With all politics numerous view points should be considered before taking a stance.

 

[tuxfool]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?ie=...+policies&gfe_rd=cr&ei=DEIKWY-OL5T98we6qIOADQ

Literally hundreds of articles on the subject, seriously. The guy encouraged mass migration, it was too much too quick. Some even blame his choices for the rise in the Brexit sentiment.

People are still writing about it today from all sides of the political fence.

Not good enough. Point to a source. This is little better than telling us to google it.

Stop Gish Galloping.

 

[Bobnob]

Some of you lots posts in here are hilarious to read after just reading the thread about Britain being one of the least racist countries in Europe.

We've had literally millions of well integrated "browns" and "blacks", as you like to say, for decades. Furthermore, to directly call millions of voters racist because they wanted some kind of control on immigration is disgusting. Just because Nigel Farage paraded some nazi-like poster doesn't mean anyone voting leave agreed with him on that. He (and UKIP) was highly criticized for it, by every side of the argument. The official Leave campaign distanced itself from Farage and UKIP for a reason.

The concern towards EU immigration started to gather steam long before any refugee crisis and "floods of brown people". You can see this through the rise of UKIP in British politics. The 2009 and especially the 2014 EP elections speak volumes in regards to UKIP's rise pre refugee crisis.

If you want to see how the British look at racists, I ask you to look at the failures of the BNP, the National Front, Britain First and the EDL to name a few.

All cabbies are racist..... heard it on Gaf

 

[RenditMan]

Not good enough. Point to a source. This is little better than telling us to google it.

Stop Gish Galloping.

If I'm debating politics with people who aren't willing to at least read multiple view points of a debate that would be disappointing.

And pointless.

 

[Walshicus]

Anyway, I think some of the money issues will turn on the intelligence issue. Most of the EUs intelligence communities are absolute horse piss and whilst ours isn't quite what it used to be, it's long been the best in the EU. Given the issues faced in the EU, it's not hard to see how this could end up being a significant bargaining chip.

I really, really doubt that.

 

[GhaleonEB]

Is it really that difficult to Google Tony Blair immigration policies?

It's on the people making a claim to back up said claim. If your argument is so fragile that it's knocked over with a simple request for proof, you're not making much of an argument. Certainly not one worth taking seriously.

 

[tuxfool]

If I'm debating politics with people who aren't willing to at least read multiple view points of a debate that would be disappointing.

And pointless.

Then provide a curated selection. Geez, you're not very good at this are you?

 

[ClosingADoor]

Nothing nazi about the picture that was posted.

What's your position on immigration controls for non EU nationals?

The parallels that can be made between that pictures and others in history is just nasty. And the other stuff the UKIP stands for makes it not that much of a step to call it that.

As for immigration, it's a bit off-topic, but I am against the current policy of organisations basically picking up refugees in the middle of the ocean and bringing them to Italy. It just works to help smugglers and cause more suffering. We need to work with the countries they come from to stop them migrating by giving them 1) more legal options and 2) invest in the countries and open up trade more and 3) work with the UN to transfer families and vulnerable people from refugee camps in a safe way. The ones that do try to come through illegal means need to be sent back quickly.

The UK is kind of funny with this, since they have little problems with this stuff. They are not a border country. They have France policing their border because of the agreements they have. I can understand Italy, Greece, Hungary, Spain being pissed about refugees, but the UK? They have a pretty good deal with just getting people through the UN already.

Once you are an EU national however, you have every right to move within the EU and try to find work in other countries. The UK being upset about this doesn't make sense, since that is what they signed up for.

 

[Tonedeff]

I will communicate in moving images then. The McPoyle brothers are playing the part of the UK here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCY6uKE1Dq8

Just chiming in to say, this was fucking perfect

 

[CyclopsRock]

I really, really doubt that.

Tbh me too, but it's about the only thing I can think of where we actually have a specialty which is basically unique in the EU which is difficult and time-consuming to replace.

 

[PJV3]

I really, really doubt that.

Didn't we try and bring it up already? , and it went down like a lead balloon.

 

[pronk420]

Whether britain is less racist than other countries is kind of irrelevant. Less racist doesn't mean not racist.

 

[tuxfool]

Whether britain is less racist than other countries is kind of irrelevant. Less racist doesn't mean not racist.

Yeah, this is kind of the crux. The other countries might have bigger issues, but the UK is the only one that swung that axe.

 

[RenditMan]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ggnMAM&usg=AFQjCNHNzLs1_E8iGu-rvns-dXmB59c9nQ

Some light reading on the Tony Blair question here. He waived the rights to transitional controls to Eastern Europe migration and opened up the UK economy to cheap labour as we were in the midst of a boom and his government had deluded themselves that they'd fixed boom and bust.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

The Guardian has a look at the subject too.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Whether britain is less racist than other countries is kind of irrelevant. Less racist doesn't mean not racist.

Evidently. But if you're trying to work out if a country's attitudes and responses to immigration are preferable to other country's attitudes and responses, it doesn't help to compare it to some mystical paradise that doesn't exist. The relative nature is important because there is no control. Or, to put it another way, when you have one country which has a historically very large proportion of immigrants, has large communities from all over the world living peacefully with "natives", has many cosmopolitan cities AND voted to leave the EU, then you have other countries where none of these things are the case and yet where support for remaining in the EU is very high (note my contrast), it demonstrates who there are significant question marks over the simple, black and white "voted to leave = racist" assumption that's so frequently made. Even dumb things like the treatment of black football players see's the UK (which used to have a big problem with it) be by far the most welcoming big league in Europe.

Edit: We are also a country that has never had a significant far right political presence do well in elections. Not all other countries have, but many have.

 

[plagiarize]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&s...ggnMAM&usg=AFQjCNHNzLs1_E8iGu-rvns-dXmB59c9nQ

Some light reading on the Tony Blair question here. He waived the rights to transitional controls to Eastern Europe migration and opened up the UK economy to cheap labour as we were in the midst of a boom and his government had deluded themselves that they'd fixed boom and bust.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....immigration-came-to-haunt-labour-inside-story

The Guardian has a look at the subject too.

Thank you.

 

[Nilaul]

Greece's Economy will look like heaven compared to what will become of UK in a few years time.

 

[RenditMan]

Thank you.

The waiving of transitional controls for Eastern Europe was a huge error, because the likes of Germany and France implemented them so we got the brunt of the aggressively priced labour with nowhere else to go.

The nation wasn't ready and we struggled, particularly when the crash hit with this flood of supply in the labour market this played a massive part imo in starting the shaping of the nations mind in the Brexit vote.

We see articles today of companies siting labour shortages yet wage inflation is stagnant, this cannot happen under the rules of supply and demand. Labour shortage is now code for wages are starting to rise, the economy is hooked on low cost labour and doesn't know how to deal with normal market forces anymore. Crucially there's a shortage of people willing to learn skills to do certain jobs as the rewards don't provide enough value for the effort involved.


https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp....ur-shortages-brexit-as-eu-worker-numbers-fall

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

The parallels that can be made between that pictures and others in history is just nasty. And the other stuff the UKIP stands for makes it not that much of a step to call it that.

As for immigration, it's a bit off-topic, but I am against the current policy of organisations basically picking up refugees in the middle of the ocean and bringing them to Italy. It just works to help smugglers and cause more suffering. We need to work with the countries they come from to stop them migrating by giving them 1) more legal options and 2) invest in the countries and open up trade more and 3) work with the UN to transfer families and vulnerable people from refugee camps in a safe way. The ones that do try to come through illegal means need to be sent back quickly.

The UK is kind of funny with this, since they have little problems with this stuff. They are not a border country. They have France policing their border because of the agreements they have. I can understand Italy, Greece, Hungary, Spain being pissed about refugees, but the UK? They have a pretty good deal with just getting people through the UN already.

Once you are an EU national however, you have every right to move within the EU and try to find work in other countries. The UK being upset about this doesn't make sense, since that is what they signed up for.

I have a feeling UK citizens forget that free movement is reciprocal. You are offered the same rights. Will being 3rd country nationals open people's eyes to its benefits? Automation is going to destroy the low skilled more than a million EU immigrants could.
EU migration was always controlled to ensure you can't claim benefits and sit around doing nothing without any large amount of savings. People come to work and pay taxes. If someone rents a flat in London as an EU migrant and stays there for ages on the basis of their savings for example, good for them? There never was this wage depression apocalypse destroying living standards either. The effect on wages is at most pretty low and people in the UK really should be blaming the UK government for not creating opportunities for people in economically depressed areas.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Greece's Economy will look like heaven compared to what will become of UK in a few years time.

Why do you think this?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

It's a pretty meaningless number. The UK will have to pay their dues but who knows how much that'll be really.

Still a fucking dumb isolationist half of a country.

 

[tuxfool]

Greece's Economy will look like heaven compared to what will become of UK in a few years time.

This is a gross exaggeration. The UK actually has people that pay their taxes.

Spoiler

wait for it to be a tax haven

 

[Westbahnhof]

Can't wait for official numbers.
It's not cool I guess, but on some level, a country shooting itself in the foot like this is fascinating to me.

Really feeling bad for the people who'll end up suffering though, especially those voting remain.
Because no matter what, the bad will outweigh any possible good.

 

[pronk420]

Or, to put it another way, when you have one country which has a historically very large proportion of immigrants, has large communities from all over the world living peacefully with "natives", has many cosmopolitan cities AND voted to leave the EU, then you have other countries where none of these things are the case and yet where support for remaining in the EU is very high (note my contrast), it demonstrates who there are significant question marks over the simple, black and white "voted to leave = racist" assumption that's so frequently made.

Well here immigration seems to be the main issue and people were campaigning based on that. Perhaps xenophobia is a better term.

For other European countries there are other factors that might make them want to remain, like being more keen on a unified Europe having been occupied during WW2 etc.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Well here immigration seems to be the main issue and people were campaigning based on that. Perhaps xenophobia is a better term.

For other European countries there are other factors that might make them want to remain, like being more keen on a unified Europe having been occupied during WW2 etc.

Why are you assuming that people who have a problem with the UK's policy with immigration are xenophobes, either? I ask for the same reasons as above - that by many metrics, the UK is as welcoming a country as you'll find. There are reasons beyond xenophobia as to why you might be against the existing immigration policy.

 

[Walshicus]

Why are you assuming that people who have a problem with the UK's policy with immigration are xenophobes, either? I ask for the same reasons as above - that by many metrics, the UK is as welcoming a country as you'll find. There are reasons beyond xenophobia as to why you might be against the existing immigration policy.

I don't think I've ever met someone who complained about immigration as a reason to leave the EU who *wasn't* a racist. And this includes members of my own family.

 

[ClosingADoor]

I have a feeling UK citizens forget that free movement is reciprocal. You are offered the same rights. Will being 3rd country nationals open people's eyes to its benefits? Automation is going to destroy the low skilled more than a million EU immigrants could.
EU migration was always controlled to ensure you can't claim benefits and sit around doing nothing without any large amount of savings. People come to work and pay taxes. If someone rents a flat in London as an EU migrant and stays there for ages on the basis of their savings for example, good for them? There never was this wage depression apocalypse destroying living standards either. The effect on wages is at most pretty low and people in the UK really should be blaming the UK government for not creating opportunities for people in economically depressed areas.

Pretty much. There are some sectors with a few problems, like international trucking. But the other side is that we in the West refuse farmer jobs that are now filled by people from Romania. In most countries it is on the government itself for not funding necessary services and maintaining rural areas.

 

[CyclopsRock]

I don't think I've ever met someone who complained about immigration as a reason to leave the EU who *wasn't* a racist. And this includes members of my own family.

Ah, well, case closed.