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[Burger]

Approximately 10 calories of fossil fuels are required to produce every 1 calorie of food eaten in the US.

Taken from http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

Makes for pretty sombre reading...

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

I feel very dirty when I look at Burger's avatar.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

Americas already thought of this and invaded Iraq. Problem solved right? RIGHT?

 

[Boogie]

Peak Oil scares the crap out of me.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

why doesn't it worry the goverments very very badly? Is it labelled as hogwash or something?

 

[explodet]

Any way to get the ten calories from the oil instead of the food and cut out the middleman?

 

[Burger]

why doesn't it worry the goverments very very badly? Is it labelled as hogwash or something?

Basically we run out of oil in 50 years, so...

Change "The war on terror will last 50 years" (as quoted by bush) to "The war for oil will last 50 years" and everything becomes clearer.

Governments do know about it, but what are they going to do ? Basically if you are a politician, you are old, so you don't really give a toss as you will be dead by then.

 

[teh_pwn]

I've never understood why we haven't switched all electricity to nuclear. I mean seriously.

 

[Space Age Playboy]

You sound like George on Six Feet Under.

 

[lexi]

I love peak oil alarmists.

Hint: It's not going to happen.

 

[Warm Machine]

I love peak oil alarmists.

Hint: It's not going to happen.

It is going to happen but by the time it is serious, corporations will have focused on alternatives and people will just accept it and transition like nothing happened. Like film to digital.

 

[NLB2]

I've never understood why we haven't switched all electricity to nuclear. I mean seriously.

WTF do you think? 'Cause nuclear power is way more expensive than power from fossil fuel. The only reason nuclear power is used now is because it is neccesary to produce weapons. If and when nuclear power becoms cheaper than fossil fuel power, then you will see nuclear power become used more widely than fossil fuel power.

 

[God's Hand]

We all die anyway. Why do we bother living and wasting natural resources?

 

[NLB2]

We all die anyway. Why do we bother living and wasting natural resources?

:lol

 

[teh_pwn]

WTF do you think? 'Cause nuclear power is way more expensive than power from fossil fuel. The only reason nuclear power is used now is because it is neccesary to produce weapons. If and when nuclear power becoms cheaper than fossil fuel power, then you will see nuclear power become used more widely than fossil fuel power.

In the short term, yes. But if all that money spent on oil was confined to the US economy...

 

[Boogie]

WTF do you think? 'Cause nuclear power is way more expensive than power from fossil fuel. The only reason nuclear power is used now is because it is neccesary to produce weapons. If and when nuclear power becoms cheaper than fossil fuel power, then you will see nuclear power become used more widely than fossil fuel power.

But Canada has nuclear power plants, as does Japan I believe, and these nations don't have nuclear weapons programs.

 

[NLB2]

But Canada has nuclear power plants, as does Japan I believe, and these nations don't have nuclear weapons programs.

When were those power plants built? Nuclear power was much more cost competitive in the '70's due to the OPEC embargo, so that could be why Japan and Canada have nuclear plants.

Burger, are you gonna have a new fact of the day today?

 

[WedgeX]

When were those power plants built? Nuclear power was much more cost competitive in the '70's due to the OPEC embargo, so that could be why Japan and Canada have nuclear plants.

Burger, are you gonna have a new fact of the day today?

Here's a list for the plants in Canada.

The vast majority were made in the 80's, with some in the 70's, and some in the 90's.

-edit-

Forgot Japan.

http://www.icjt.org/npp/lokacija.php?drzava=14&kontinent=4

Seems about half of Japan's reactors are from the 70's.

 

[Deleted member 1235]

I love peak oil alarmists.

Hint: It's not going to happen.

But why not?

 

[NLB2]

Here's a list for the plants in Canada.

The vast majority were made in the 80's, with some in the 70's, and some in the 90's.

-edit-

Forgot Japan.

http://www.icjt.org/npp/lokacija.php?drzava=14&kontinent=4

Seems about half of Japan's reactors are from the 70's.

It seems as if most of Canada's nuclear reactors are going to be shut down in the not too distant future.

I didn't realize Japan had so many nuclear power plants.

 

[Burger]

I love peak oil alarmists.

Hint: It's not going to happen.

Uhhh, yeah it is.

Oh right, you are one of those people who believes that oil 'magically' appears from 'magic' springs and is a 'renewable resource'.

 

[Burger]

It is going to happen but by the time it is serious, corporations will have focused on alternatives and people will just accept it and transition like nothing happened. Like film to digital.

You are forgetting that you spend $1 in the middle east to pull $30 of oil out of the ground.

Tell me something else that is that cheap (and needs no oil in the first place). This shit is serious now, we are at the top of a steep hill, and the only way is down.

 

[Chony]

Maybe we will get some alien technologies that will work.

Either way, in 50 years I will be 70, and I will be too old too care. I will be pissed that there is no power to play my Playstation 13, but I will just sit back and think of the good old days.

 

[Mr. E. Yis]

I love peak oil alarmists.

Hint: It's not going to happen.

:lol It seems you haven't done your research.

Either way, in 50 years I will be 70, and I will be too old too care.

What a selfish attitude. Do you plan on having kids?

 

[Burger]

Either way, in 50 years I will be 70, and I will be too old too care. I will be pissed that there is no power to play my Playstation 13, but I will just sit back and think of the good old days.

Does it worry you that you could be forraging for food in a freezing, post apocolyptic wasteland ??

The scary thing is, that unlike most of the terrible things we are doing to the planet, this one is going to hit us really hard, and not 'us' as in our kids, but me and you.

And we are all to blame.

 

[Chony]

Really we are to blame, it is a collective action problem. There is only one way to solve it, everyone needs to do the right thing. One person (like me) will think that if I take the bus, I am only one person, it doesn't help save pollution, and is only a hassle to me, and not benefitting anyone. Problem is, everyone has this mentality. Do we need all of this mass aura of technological improvements. The more improvements, the more problems. Are we living any better than a Native American pre-Columbus? With new cures come new diseases. With the search for land came wars. With technology came wars. With energy came wars. Our entire economy is dependant on oil, and assuming everything collapsed (economy, political institutions, etc.) how much worse off would I be? Granted I love all that technology has brought me, warmth, comfort, entertainment, health, etc.

I don't know if I will have kids, I am not saying that I don't care for them, it's just that they will develop in a different world than I did. Same for my grandkids etc. Just as some people grew up in rural America to have the sons live in Industrial America and there sons fight in World Wars. We can't predict the future, of course I want what is best for my children, and society in general, but we can't expect to live the same lives as we are now in 100 years.

As we have grown up in this world of technological achievments, we don't need to forage for our own food, build our own shelter, etc. Will our grandchildren have to? I don't know. Since being raised as we are, we cannot fend for ourselves, I am not Thoreau; but our children raised in a different society could. People have been doing it for hundreds of thousands of years.

Rant done...

 

[Inumaru]

Approximately 10 calories of fossil fuels are required to produce every 1 calorie of food eaten in the US.

Taken from http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/

Makes for pretty sombre reading...

Physics, Newton's 2nd Law, and Common Sense laugh at this idiotic assertion.

Please, try to find the logical fallacy in the calorie argument. You'll sleep better if you do.

 

[videogamer]

Physics, Newton's 2nd Law, and Common Sense laugh at this idiotic assertion.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Burger]

Really we are to blame, it is a collective action problem. There is only one way to solve it, everyone needs to do the right thing. One person (like me) will think that if I take the bus, I am only one person, it doesn't help save pollution, and is only a hassle to me, and not benefitting anyone. Problem is, everyone has this mentality. Do we need all of this mass aura of technological improvements. The more improvements, the more problems. Are we living any better than a Native American pre-Columbus? With new cures come new diseases. With the search for land came wars. With technology came wars. With energy came wars. Our entire economy is dependant on oil, and assuming everything collapsed (economy, political institutions, etc.) how much worse off would I be? Granted I love all that technology has brought me, warmth, comfort, entertainment, health, etc.

I don't know if I will have kids, I am not saying that I don't care for them, it's just that they will develop in a different world than I did. Same for my grandkids etc. Just as some people grew up in rural America to have the sons live in Industrial America and there sons fight in World Wars. We can't predict the future, of course I want what is best for my children, and society in general, but we can't expect to live the same lives as we are now in 100 years.

As we have grown up in this world of technological achievments, we don't need to forage for our own food, build our own shelter, etc. Will our grandchildren have to? I don't know. Since being raised as we are, we cannot fend for ourselves, I am not Thoreau; but our children raised in a different society could. People have been doing it for hundreds of thousands of years.

Rant done...

You don't seem to be able to grasp that this isn't your kids future alone, it's your future.

If the oil crash happens (which seems unescapable at the moment) then you will loose your job, there will be no more food for you, you'll have no money, nothing. You might own a house, but the chances of society falling into general anarchy are pretty high, so you might loose that too.

Basically there is nothing we can to, we are too entrenched in our lifestyle, and too close to the end to be able to turn it around in time. Now we just wait for the inevatable.

 

[Burger]

Physics, Newton's 2nd Law, and Common Sense laugh at this idiotic assertion.

Please, try to find the logical fallacy in the calorie argument. You'll sleep better if you do.

Well perhaps I'm wrong but...

Lets say you eat a chocolate bar which contains 1 calorie.

There is the farmer that grows the ingredients, theres some energy right there, there is the transportation to the processing plant, fossil fuels right there. There is the processing, which uses electricity, which could be powered by a coal or gas power facility. There is the wrapper, more oil there. Transportation to the shop, more fossil fuels. You travelling to the shop etc etc.

Seems logical enough to me.

 

[Inumaru]

Care to elaborate?

Gotta go work out now, but if no one has touched this in a few hours, I will.

 

[Inumaru]

Well perhaps I'm wrong but...

Lets say you eat a chocolate bar which contains 1 calorie.

There is the farmer that grows the ingredients, theres some energy right there, there is the transportation to the processing plant, fossil fuels right there. There is the processing, which uses electricity, which could be powered by a coal or gas power facility. There is the wrapper, more oil there. Transportation to the shop, more fossil fuels. You travelling to the shop etc etc.

Seems logical enough to me.

I believe this is a false analogy, among other things. It also seems to ignore conservation of energy, and differences in caloric efficiency between living and non-living entities. Back in a few hours.

 

[Burger]

Here you go then:

Prior to the industrial revolution, virtually 100% of both endosomatic and exosomatic energy was solar driven. Fossil fuels now represent 90% of the exosomatic energy used in the United States and other developed countries.17 The typical exo/endo ratio of pre-industrial, solar powered societies is about 4 to 1. The ratio has changed tenfold in developed countries, climbing to 40 to 1. And in the United States it is more than 90 to 1.18 The nature of the way we use endosomatic energy has changed as well.

The vast majority of endosomatic energy is no longer expended to deliver power for direct economic processes. Now the majority of endosomatic energy is utilized to generate the flow of information directing the flow of exosomatic energy driving machines. Considering the 90/1 exo/endo ratio in the United States, each endosomatic kcal of energy expended in the US induces the circulation of 90 kcal of exosomatic energy. As an example, a small gasoline engine can convert the 38,000 kcal in one gallon of gasoline into 8.8 KWh (Kilowatt hours), which equates to about 3 weeks of work for one human being.19

In their refined study, Giampietro and Pimentel found that 10 kcal of exosomatic energy are required to produce 1 kcal of food delivered to the consumer in the U.S. food system. This includes packaging and all delivery expenses, but excludes household cooking).20 The U.S. food system consumes ten times more energy than it produces in food energy. This disparity is made possible by nonrenewable fossil fuel stocks.

Assuming a figure of 2,500 kcal per capita for the daily diet in the United States, the 10/1 ratio translates into a cost of 35,000 kcal of exosomatic energy per capita each day. However, considering that the average return on one hour of endosomatic labor in the U.S. is about 100,000 kcal of exosomatic energy, the flow of exosomatic energy required to supply the daily diet is achieved in only 20 minutes of labor in our current system. Unfortunately, if you remove fossil fuels from the equation, the daily diet will require 111 hours of endosomatic labor per capita; that is, the current U.S. daily diet would require nearly three weeks of labor per capita to produce.

Quite plainly, as fossil fuel production begins to decline within the next decade, there will be less energy available for the production of food.

more at: http://www.fromthewilderness.com/free/ww3/100303_eating_oil.html (Eating Fossil Fuels).