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[Che]

The goal of the war was to get rid of Saddam, liberate a people and spread democracy in a region which so desperately needs it.

LOL!!! Democracy? Oh you mean that American pawns who are claiming to be the goverment of Iraq?

 

[Cooter]

The commission investigating the attacks on America of September 11 2001 has found "no credible evidence" of a relevant link between Iraq and al-Qaida, contradicting President George Bush's assertion that such a connection justified the toppling of Saddam Hussein.

I've got to go but I will say one thing about this.

They found no "link" but did say there was a relationship.

 

[Makura]

They'll probably know at least civil war, as plenty of Iraqi children will blame the United States for killing their parents or other relatives. Terrorists aren't born, they're made, and thanks to a rather wreckless campaign we've just opened up a factory in the mid-east that bin Laden could've only dreamt of.

Thats all quite presumptive. I think you'll be proven wrong.

 

[xsarien]

If we stay there and defend peace and freedom while building schools and hospitals it will be difficult to portray the USA as a cold-hearted nation that doesn't care about them.

If, if, if. Dwelling on the hypothetical is precisely what's caused this clusterfuck in the first place.

Why on earth would you remove 9/11 from history? September 11th change life and foreign policy as we know it. You are exactly right about not having the political muscle to remove Saddam before 9/11. The attacks on our homeland are why we can't stand around and wait for more. We must be on the offensive, remove threats and change attitudes of the people dedicated to change our way of life.

Well, for starters, I'd remove it because I had family and friends that skirted a little too close to death for comfort, but that's not really the issue here.

Our foreign policy is - at best - just dangerous. At worst, it sets a horrible precedent to follow. That being pre-emptive strikes are acceptable. The solution to the global terror threat isn't through our military, I'm sorry I have to break that to you. Terrorists exist because of ideology, and no amount of guns pointed at the heads of people willing to die anyway is going to change that. If you want to minimize future threats - and we've done just the opposite, our own state department says terrorism is UP since 2001 - it must be done through diplomacy, to put it in a nutshell.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

I've got to go but I will say one thing about this.

They found no "link" but did say there was a relationship.

Are you arguing semantics? The only relationship they had was a hateful one. Saddam and Osama hated each other. Now if you mean working relationship, that is a link.

 

[Makura]

LOL!!! Democracy? Oh you mean that American pawns who are claiming to be the goverment of Iraq?

You think it's all a conspiracy? You're aware there are going to be elections right? Do you you think those will be fixed?

 

[human5892]

I've got to go but I will say one thing about this.

They found no "link" but did say there was a relationship.

Sorry, that's not nearly enough to refute what I've said and what was said in those links.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt since you had to go and thus might not have had time to fully explain yourself, but really, most of the search results I got were saying very similar things. The 9/11 Commission itself -- a non-partisan commission -- made this conclusion in the face of what was generally agreed to be one of Bush's cases (if only by implication) for invading Iraq.

 

[Makura]

If you want to minimize future threats - and we've done just the opposite, our own state department says terrorism is UP since 2001 - it must be done through diplomacy, to put it in a nutshell.

Which the US has and is doing. Terrorists aren't interested in diplomacy.

Of course terrorism is up since 9/11. Even if we hadn't acted, the WTC attacks still would have galvanized terrorists.

You actually think terrorism is not going to go up before it goes down? Any action the US takes against terrorism will fuel hatred/recruitment.

 

[xsarien]

You actually think terrorism is not going to go up before it goes down? Any action the US takes against terrorism will fuel hatred/recruitment.

The President seems to think so, or am I completely misunderestimatstanding him when he boldly proclaims that we're "safer," "winning the war on terror," and "taking the fight to the terrorists" (which is such a grotesque claim that I'm honestly wondering if the man's had a stroke recently.)

 

[Makura]

I didn't ask what the president said.

 

[xsarien]

I didn't ask what the president said.

You asked a rather cocky hypothetical question. Given our actions, of course terrorism is going to increase. We've nurtured an environment for such ideology to prosper. You can thank Bush for uniting some people, at least. Our chance to let 9/11 be the gruesome apex, after which terrorism would decrease was lost the moment the White House adopted the "Our Way, or the Highway" approach to international cooperation in the "war on terror."

 

[Makura]

You asked a rather cocky hypothetical question. Given our actions, of course terrorism is going to increase. We've nurtured an environment for such ideology to prosper. You can thank Bush for uniting some people, at least. Our chance to let 9/11 be the gruesome apex, after which terrorism would decrease was lost the moment the White House adopted the "Our Way, or the Highway" approach to international cooperation in the "war on terror."

I wasn't trying to be cocky. You actually think that terrorism would have went down after 9/11 had we not reacted? I don't understand what you're implying here.

 

[ManDudeChild]

Thats all quite presumptive. I think you'll be proven wrong.

All things considered, do you really think you're in the place to be saying something like that?

If the U.S. had kept its course, Afganistan was a smart move, they not only wouldn't have the massive showing of hate in the internaional community, but would probably have Bin Laden by now. Or at the very least not be as paranoid as it is now. The sad reality of it all, is that the moves in Iraq are probably doing more to strenghten the ranks of terrorists. For every innocent that's killed or tortured unintentionally or intentionally by the U.S. in Iraq there's family member or friend that's angry and wanting revenge. The U.S. didn't put much thought into the enormous task that is nation building and, coupled with the arrogance beforehand, created quite the quagmire.

 

[Makura]

All things considered, do you really think you're in the place to be saying something like that?

It's just an opinion, I could turn out to be wrong.

I disagree regarding the idea that revenge fuels terrorism. Ideology does IMO.

 

[xsarien]

I wasn't trying to be cocky. You actually think that terrorism would have went down after 9/11 had we not reacted? I don't understand what you're implying here.

I'm certain that if we hadn't gone into Iraq, the level of terrorist activity in the world wouldn't be nearly as high as it is now. Saddam wasn't an immediate threat to the United States, there was little to no reason to enter that country. Now we have a destabilized country in the most destabilized part of the world, with enraged people, ripe for Al-Qaeda's recruitment.

Tell me why this was a smart thing to do.

It's just an opinion, I could turn out to be wrong.

I disagree regarding the idea that revenge fuels terrorism. Ideology does IMO.

What do you think is at the core of some of these peoples' ideologies?

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

I wonder how many Iraqi's would have died if Saddam were to have stayed in power till his death. Infact, how many people in the world would have died if he were to be in power for another 10 to 20 years.

To be honest with you I don't give a shit. He could have killed half the population if he wanted to. I have never had or will have sympthay for the Iraqi people. I'm from America bitch! It's stupid to think the avg US citizen give a rats ass about anything or anyone in the middle east.

 

[Makura]

What do you think is at the core of some of these peoples' ideologies?

Radical Islam.

 

[xsarien]

Radical Islam.

You're not digging deep enough.

 

[human5892]

To be honest with you I don't give a shit. He could have killed half the population if he wanted to. I have never had or will have sympthay for the Iraqi people. I'm from America bitch! It's stupid to think the avg US citizen give a rats ass about anything or anyone in the middle east.

If you're sarcastic: Wow, good joke character!

If you're serious: You are a sad person.

 

[Makura]

there was little to no reason to enter that country.

Well, thats where we disagree.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

100% serious. The idea that Americans care about Iraqis is retarded. We never have and we never will. I don't feel bad that Saddam's people were killing Iraqis in their homes and I don't care that US troops are killing Iraqis in their homes. It's all the same to me. They don't have any day to day impact on our lives. Bottom line. Look at some of the countries in Africa or hell even Haitii scores of people are dying there everyday because of repressive govenments and thugs. Do you really care? I know I don't not really. As long as I can get my tv, my microwave food, in my car, catch a paycheck and watch some porn I am oblivious to the rest of the world. MAYBE on 9/11 I paid a bit of attention but, after that I went back to the same old same old as I assume 90% of the US population did.

 

[human5892]

100% serious. The idea that Americans care about Iraqis is retarded. We never have and we never will. I don't feel bad that Saddam's people were killing Iraqis in their homes and I don't care that US troops are killing Iraqis in their homes. It's all the same to me. They don't have any day to day impact on our lives. Bottom line. Look at some of the countries in Africa or hell even Haitii scores of people are dying there everyday because of repressive govenments and thugs. Do you really care? I know I don't not really. As long as I can get my tv, my microwave food, in my car, catch a paycheck and watch some porn I am oblivious to the rest of the world. MAYBE on 9/11 I paid a bit of attention but, after that I went back to the same old same old as I assume 90% of the US population did.

Yes, I do care about them. I care more because now we're involved, and it's more of my business, but I've always cared on some level that there are people out there living under such tyranny.

I will agree with you that your incredibly selfish, ignorant attitude is one that seems to be shared by many Americans, though.

 

[ConfusingJazz]

100% serious. The idea that Americans care about Iraqis is retarded. We never have and we never will. I don't feel bad that Saddam's people were killing Iraqis in their homes and I don't care that US troops are killing Iraqis in their homes. It's all the same to me. They don't have any day to day impact on our lives. Bottom line. Look at some of the countries in Africa or hell even Haitii scores of people are dying there everyday because of repressive govenments and thugs. Do you really care? I know I don't not really. As long as I can get my tv, my microwave food, in my car, catch a paycheck and watch some porn I am oblivious to the rest of the world. MAYBE on 9/11 I paid a bit of attention but, after that I went back to the same old same old as I assume 90% of the US population did.

Thats an unfortunate view, thats only surpassed by the fact that the 90% figure is also probably true. If you talk to most people, they don't know about whats going on in Sudan, or Haiti, or Liberia, or the jungles of Columbia, or slums of Palestine. I mean, if you mention it to them, they might go, thats a damn shame, but after that, most people go back to not caring.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Yes, I do care about them. I care more because now we're involved, and it's more of my business, but I've always cared on some level that there are people out there living under such tyranny.

I will agree with you that your incredibly selfish, ignorant attitude is one that seems to be shared by many Americans, though.

Please, tell me how your day to day operations have change before the war started and today? They haven't the US govt has directed the US people to live in ingnorant bliss and go shopping. It's not our job to care. If you belive that this has anything to do with caring for the plight of the Iraqi people you sir are out of you cottonpickin' mind.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Thats an unfortunate view, thats only surpassed by the fact that the 90% figure is also probably true. If you talk to most people, they don't know about whats going on in Sudan, or Haiti, or Liberia, or the jungles of Columbia, or slums of Palestine. I mean, if you mention it to them, they might go, thats a damn shame, but after that, most people go back to not caring.

Speaking for myself, I do care, and find it disheartening for that view to be so prevalent.

That 10% are the few poor saps that have friends and family in Iraq. For them maybe they care but, I'm sure it stops short of their loved ones coming home in one piece.

 

[human5892]

Please, tell me how your day to day operations have change before the war started and today?

They haven't. But just because the war doesn't affect my way of life directly doesn't mean I shouldn't -- or don't -- care.

They haven't the US govt has directed the US people to live in ingnorant bliss and go shopping. It's not our job to care. If you belive that this has anything to do with caring for the plight of the Iraqi people you sir are out of you cottonpickin' mind.

Wait...how did a paranoid anti-government jab get in there? Now I'm confused.

 

[Drensch]

The fighting against dictators arguemnt is such a joke. We're propping up Pakistan's corrupt regime currently. And they have far tighter connections with Al Queda than just about any other nation in the world. I fully expect Pakistan to be another Iraq in 10 or so years, and they have nukes.

 

[Makura]

You're not digging deep enough.

"Bin Ladin saw himself as called “to follow in the footsteps of the Messenger [Mohammed]nd to communicate his message to all nations, and to serve as the rallying point and organizer of a new kind of war to destroy America and bring the world to Islam."

- THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT

(the entire chapter "THE FOUNDATION OF THE NEW TERRORISM" goes into much detail regarding this issue)

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

The fighting against dictators arguemnt is such a joke. We're propping up Pakistan's corrupt regime currently. And they have far tighter connections with Al Queda than just about any other nation in the world. I fully expect Pakistan to be another Iraq in 10 or so years, and they have nukes.

SShhhhhh

 

[Makura]

The fighting against dictators arguemnt is such a joke. We're propping up Pakistan's corrupt regime currently. And they have far tighter connections with Al Queda than just about any other nation in the world. I fully expect Pakistan to be another Iraq in 10 or so years, and they have nukes.

It's not a "fighting against dictators arguemnt". Not all dictators operate like Saddam did. And Pakistan is helping us in the face of enormous pressure - why would we attack them?

 

[Drensch]

It's not a "fighting against dictators arguemnt". Not all dictators operate like Saddam did. And Pakistan is helping us in the face of enormous pressure - why would we attack them?

I doubt I can convince you that the BUSHGOD is wrong, but Pervez Musharriff is bad for all the same reasons Saddam became bad after we stopped being buddies with him. We over looked all this horrible stuff he did(does) be cause he is supposedly helping us.

 

[xsarien]

"Bin Ladin saw himself as called “to follow in the footsteps of the Messenger [Mohammed]nd to communicate his message to all nations, and to serve as the rallying point and organizer of a new kind of war to destroy America and bring the world to Islam."

- THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT

(the entire chapter "THE FOUNDATION OF THE NEW TERRORISM" goes into much detail regarding this issue)

You're confusing all terrorists with Al-Qaeda's particular goals. Bra-fucking-vo.

 

[Error Macro]

...unlike what Americans do in Iraq now....

Hey buddy, I don't think that the Americans are over there, locking people in special rooms where fucking ACID DRIPS FROM THE CEILING and they have to run around and try not to get hit. Why don't you read up on what actually went on under Hussein's reign?

 

[xsarien]

Hey buddy, I don't think that the Americans are over there, locking people in special rooms where fucking ACID DRIPS FROM THE CEILING and they have to run around and try not to get hit. Why don't you read up on what actually went on under Hussein's reign?

Abu Grahib (among others.)

 

[Makura]

It's nowhere near the same level.

 

[Xenon]

GAF 12:00 PM-6PM CST Bush Gone Wild [Rerun] Learn all about the troubles in Iraq through the eyes of people who already hate America's policies in the Middle East.

 

[SteveMeister]

Abu Grahib (among others.)

Among others?

 

[Makura]

You're confusing all terrorists with Al-Qaeda's particular goals. Bra-fucking-vo.

So?

 

[xsarien]

It's nowhere near the same level.

You and I must have shockingly different opinions about how far, precisely, is too far.

So?

Are you fucking serious? How about this little nugget?
Not every terrorist out to hurt the United States in one way or another is a member of Al-Qaeda.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

Not every terrorist out to hurt the United States in one way or another is a member of Al-Qaeda.

The domestic terrorists that reside in our own back yards don't matter.

 

[Makura]

GAF 12:00 PM-6PM CST Bush Gone Wild [Rerun] Learn all about the troubles in Iraq through the eyes of people who already hate America's policies in the Middle East.

LOL!

 

[xsarien]

The domestic terrorists that reside in our own back yards don't matter.

I can't tell if you're kidding or not, but it certainly doesn't deviate from the administration's own mindset.

 

[MC Safety]

Didn't Bush violate a couple of UN resolutions by totally ignoring the Security Council and going to war without supplying sufficient proof?

The UN resolutions enacted after the Gulf War stated if Hussein did not comply with inspectors, etc., he would be subject to further penalties, including the resumption of force.

So the mandate had existed since the early 1990s. I would argue that the mandate still exists regardless of whether support for it withered away.

I'm not supporting the war, mind you. I just think that people who claim there's no good reason for it are misguided.

 

[Makura]

You and I must have shockingly different opinions about how far, precisely, is too far.



Are you fucking serious? How about this little nugget?
Not every terrorist out to hurt the United States in one way or another is a member of Al-Qaeda.

But a majority of them are Islamic exteremists.

 

[Tommie Hu$tle]

I can't tell if you're kidding or not, but it certainly doesn't deviate from the administration's own mindset.

IAWTP.

But a majority of them are Islamic exteremists.

The ones that are closest to you and have the real means to inflict terror are Christian exteremists.

 

[videogamer]

Yes, ConfusingJazz, but how many dictators have done ALL the things I listed?

Since when did your criteria become the basis for attacking other countries? Several of those were pretty flimsy. Like the other posters have noted, the part about praising 9/11 isn't exactly a good reason for attacking Iraq. If you have read some of the North Korean announcements, you would see that North Korea says plenty of nasty things about the US. One terrorist attack isn't the only thing to consider. Anyways, I could easily add other arbitary criteria, such as "kidnapping foreign actors and normal civilians" to justify the invasion of North Korea.

 

[xsarien]

But a majority of them are Islamic exteremists.

And because they happen to be Islamic extremists doesn't negate the possibility that their actions aren't politically motivated.

 

[carbonbased]

It's all academic, though. We would never agree to send money or troops to a foreign country without a WMD / terrorism scare, or the promise that we would get somehing in return. America is not interested in 'a finer world'. If we did good in Iraq, it was only an accident.

Somalia in the early 90s?

 

[Makura]

And because they happen to be Islamic extremists doesn't negate the possibility that their actions aren't politically motivated.

I have no doubt some of them are politically motivated, but I think it's mostly about jihad.

 

[xsarien]

I have no doubt some of them are politically motivated, but I think it's mostly about jihad.

Ever stop and think that they're likely just using religion as a shield?