Can MS change their ram to GDDR5 or is it too late at this point?

Raide said:
i think they might jump to 12 and just engineer the system well enough that the ddr3 and ddr5 gap just ain't that noticeable to the majority of consumers.
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From the spec in the leaks, the system was pretty well balanced. The ESRAM had enough capacity and bandwidth to keep the GPU pretty well optimised. Technically, the extra GDDR5 isn't that much of a game changer for Sony, although having that much of it will allow for a lot of AA at higher resolutions.

For general memory usages the GDDR is overkill and the latency is a bit of an issue but nothing some sensible coding and the CPU cache can't handle.
 
Blackvette94 said:
This also means that what they said about used games on the Xbox is very likely.
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Kotaku pointed out yesterday that the Sony statements about used games were equivocal enough that online pass could turn into a used pass. So people like me who rent are possibly in trouble either way
 
Well if MS does change to faster ram we can all thank Sony(gorilla games really) for it, if they don't it likely won't matter in sales, actually if they kept the rumor specs they have a much better chance at getting mass market success faster with lower price,Kinect 2.0 features and more focus on entertainment features. I think MS has a huge chance to steal away many of those Wii owners, that will skip WiiU.
 
If Sony could pull some unknown 8GB GDDR5 solution out of their hat this late, I'm sure it's possible for MS to do something unexpected too.

I would assume that they are at least considering an upgrade after what Sony surprised us with.
 
Loch Doun said:
They raised the RAM last minute with the 360 and they will do it again.

Crytek will make sure of that.
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I don't think it's the same situation. Microsoft was convinced to double it upon seeing how Gears of War was improved, and it was from 256 MB to 512 MB. For the new Xbox they were probably already convinced to jump at 8 GB, and made up for the slower ram with the ESRam. I kind of expect they'll look at this and just go "well, we'll see how this works out" as the advantage probably isn't worth it this time. Unless you mean to go to 16, but while I thought 8 might've been insane there's no question to me 16 absolutely is, especially since it probably requires adjusting the ESRAM to balance it out.
 
Didnt we say it was too late for Sony to double their RAM, who knows how old thsoe leaked specs are.

Also isnt DDR3 faster than GDDR3, or am I getting them wrong way round.
 
Switching over to 8GB GDDR5 will cause a delay for MS as Sony may have secured 100% supply of 4Gb chips (they are going to need as many as they can get) and since only Hynix manufacture them MS will find it tough to get enough volume to have a significant 2013 launch, even if they go US only for release.

They could opt for 16GB DDR3, but it would mean 32x 4Gb chips which is no easy task and it would add a significant amount to their mainboard complexity and BoM.

Sony seem to have been very lucky, from 2010 when PS4 development started to now GDDR5 chips have gone from 1Gb (2010) -> 2Gb (2011) -> 4Gb (2013) and holding steady at 16 chips has allowed them to go from 2GB -> 4GB -> 8GB without an increase in motherboard complexity. If MS can find a supplier for 8Gb DDR3 ram chips then it is possible, but right now 8Gb DDR3 uses all kinds of esoteric 3D stacking tech which is unproven and expensive. I think Samsung are currently selling 8Gb DDR4 but it won't be ready for consumer grade products (cheap) until 2014.
 
Personally I hope at least one of them launches in 2014 but probably neither wants to give up an entire holiday to the other. With the economy as bad as it is, I don't think losing one entire christmas season would be as impactful as it would have been before. It still isn't a positive but I think MS could afford to delay to add more RAM. Besides, wasn't there a rumor that they issues with the first batch of dies?

Plus, I don't think Sony is launching in every territory in 2013.
 
My hope is that somehow MS can leverage stacked DDR3, with the increased bandwidth benefits that it provides.

The problem still is that the ESRAM is so large on the die, that they may not be able to fit in any more CU's, as it stands the PS4 has more thank 50% more GPU power that xbox 3.

I really hope they can do something - it would be good to have both consoles on an equal footing for the consumer.
 
spwolf said:
that also might be true... a lot of people might not care about differences and will pay less.

As to SSD or BD thats irrelevant and wont be happening.
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 I'm not saying they are, but they are more likely to change than MS "adding" CU's or GDDR5. SSD would be pretty nice bump in performance, if was even remotely feasible cost-wise. In end, as long as MS kills "no used games" and "always contected", which Sony might have just forced them to do, Xbox should be fine, despite whatever power difference there.
 
A switch from DDR3 to GDDR5 is impossible if the rumored specs are true.
Microsoft has designed the system around having DDR3 as unified memory. They have introduced embedded memory in their APU to mitigate the bandwidth issue, they have designed specific modules relying on low latency.
Changing to GDDR5 would make all those things useless and would require a full redesign of the APU, something which should be already done and taped out in its final form.
So no it's not happening, they have a strategy and they're going to stick to that.
 
Fancy Corndog said:
If Sony could pull some unknown 8GB GDDR5 solution out of their hat this late, I'm sure it's possible for MS to do something unexpected too.

I would assume that they are at least considering an upgrade after what Sony surprised us with.
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Nearly every custom facet of the Durango is built around ESRAM/DDR3, they would be throwing that and their BOM/long-term cost reduction advantage out the window.

I'm not saying there may not be some surprises, but GDDR5 isn't likely one of them.
 
It is probably that MS has more than one design based on what will be available at the point of manufacture.

The leaked specs are 12 months old, so we don't know what they have planned currently. I doubt GDDR5 will happen though.
 
Microsoft has proven their way is successful. Continue to build on the foundations from the previous generation, develop some new experiences and roll with what you got.
 
RPGCrazied said:
Even if its less powerful, even by a small amount, it might end up being a cheaper console than the PS4. If it plays the same games, just less graphic fidelity, I'd be more inclined to buy the cheaper console. Though if it blocks used games it can screw off.
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I know you like Japanese games. And I'll tell you right now MS is not going after Japan again.
 
I think that ms is in a tough position. I'm guessing they have to bundle kinect 2 with their console. So their options are keep the specs the same and match/beat the ps4's price(whatever it may be), or match it on hardware and sell at a higher price. I'm guessing they won't match. Their focus is really that casual Wii gamer that hasn't made the jump to next gen.
 
scently said:
Having 8gb gddr5 does not suddenly make the durango worse than it was before.

This is a quote from Andrew on B3D on Sony's gddr5 choice


He is into graphics dev, and has published quite a number of articles on rendering etc.

The move to 8gb from Sony just means that they are now on equal footing in RAM size. Whatever difference in FLOPS will not be significant enough that it will be readily identifiable.
Click to expand...

1. Anytime someone says "X is overkill" when it comes to home consoles they're full of shit. Everything you give a developer will be of benefit to them, any time you give them something that is easily accessible it will benefit them that much more. Doubling the unified memory pool is hugely beneficial as a result because it's a big, easy to use tool.

2. There is no caching system that substitutes for high bandwidth pipes across the board. Any attempt to even bridge the gap via a caching system eats up developer time in fine tuning and tweaking.

3. Most developers acknowledge that Sony had a ram advantage when it was expected to be 4GB of GDDR5 since the performance jump thanks to it's higher bandwidth would be more beneficial than the sheer quantity MS was offering. The quantity advantage has now disappeared and Sony's bandwidth advantage has remained the same. The "slight" edge that was generally accepted on the ram side of system design has now grown.

4. Of course it doesn't make Durango worse than it did before, it just makes the PS4 better, and in a comparison of the two the delta has grown as a result.

5. The currently rumored GPU divide is significant. 1.8 TFLOPS to 1.2 TFLOPS is not massive, but it's a meaningful gap.

6. The downside of ALL of this for MS is that they now seem to be the one using esoteric hardware. An ESRAM cache to make up for unified DDR3 requires more work for developers. A more heavily modified GPU than the standard ATi offering requires more work for developers to familiarize themselves with the capabilities and to then exploit it. Any additional hardware they might have layered in will do the same. Further, these customized tweaks add to system complexity, which directly impacts cost.

Sony has built a developer's console and it is by proxy a gamer's console. This is the result of Mark Cerny being tasked with it's design. MS doesn't appear to have someone like Cerny to do the same job for them, and executive interviews paint a company with no particular interest in doing that if they did. That is emerging as the X factor of this next generation.
 
Drek said:
1. Anytime someone says "X is overkill" when it comes to home consoles they're full of shit.

2. There is no caching system that substitutes for high bandwidth pipes across the board. Any attempt to even bridge the gap via a caching system eats up developer time in fine tuning and tweaking.

3. Most developers acknowledge that Sony had a ram advantage when it was expected to be 4GB of GDDR5 since the performance jump thanks to it's higher bandwidth would be more beneficial than the sheer quantity MS was offering. The quantity advantage has now disappeared and Sony's bandwidth advantage has remained the same. The "slight" edge that was generally accepted on the ram side of system design has now grown.

4. Of course it doesn't make Durango worse than it did before, it just makes the PS4 better, and in a comparison of the two the delta has grown as a result.

5. The currently rumored GPU divide is significant. 1.8 TFLOPS to 1.2 TFLOPS is not massive, but it's a meaningful gap.

6. The downside of ALL of this for MS is that they now seem to be the one using esoteric hardware. An ESRAM cache to make up for unified DDR3 requires more work for developers. A more heavily modified GPU than the standard ATi offering requires more work for developers to familiarize themselves with the capabilities and to then exploit it. Any additional hardware they might have layered in will do the same. Further, these customized tweaks add to system complexity, which directly impacts cost.

Sony has built a developer's console and it is by proxy a gamer's console. This is the result of Mark Cerny being tasked with it's design. MS doesn't appear to have someone like Cerny to do the same job for them, and executive interviews paint a company with no particular interest in doing that if they did. That is emerging as the X factor of this next generation.
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Did you just say that he is full of shit? LOL, OK if you say so. haha.
 
Drek said:
1. Anytime someone says "X is overkill" when it comes to home consoles they're full of shit. Everything you give a developer will be of benefit to them, any time you give them something that is easily accessible it will benefit them that much more. Doubling the unified memory pool is hugely beneficial as a result because it's a big, easy to use tool.

2. There is no caching system that substitutes for high bandwidth pipes across the board. Any attempt to even bridge the gap via a caching system eats up developer time in fine tuning and tweaking.

3. Most developers acknowledge that Sony had a ram advantage when it was expected to be 4GB of GDDR5 since the performance jump thanks to it's higher bandwidth would be more beneficial than the sheer quantity MS was offering. The quantity advantage has now disappeared and Sony's bandwidth advantage has remained the same. The "slight" edge that was generally accepted on the ram side of system design has now grown.

4. Of course it doesn't make Durango worse than it did before, it just makes the PS4 better, and in a comparison of the two the delta has grown as a result.

5. The currently rumored GPU divide is significant. 1.8 TFLOPS to 1.2 TFLOPS is not massive, but it's a meaningful gap.

6. The downside of ALL of this for MS is that they now seem to be the one using esoteric hardware. An ESRAM cache to make up for unified DDR3 requires more work for developers. A more heavily modified GPU than the standard ATi offering requires more work for developers to familiarize themselves with the capabilities and to then exploit it. Any additional hardware they might have layered in will do the same. Further, these customized tweaks add to system complexity, which directly impacts cost.

Sony has built a developer's console and it is by proxy a gamer's console. This is the result of Mark Cerny being tasked with it's design. MS doesn't appear to have someone like Cerny to do the same job for them, and executive interviews paint a company with no particular interest in doing that if they did. That is emerging as the X factor of this next generation.
Click to expand...

That's a lot of speculation considering only one part of the equation has been revealed.
 
Kagari said:
I know you like Japanese games. And I'll tell you right now MS is not going after Japan again.
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Oh? It was the whole reason I got a 360. Alas I don't have one anymore though. For those jRPG's. Lost Odyssey and Tales of Vesperia in particular. Blue Dragon wasn't bad either. But Infinite Undiscovery, was really bad.
 
Donnie said:
Its DDR3 not GDDR3 and there's no reason for MS to change it. They have 8GB DDR3 (68GB/s) + 32MB low latency embedded memory (100GB/s) for a total memory bandwidth of 168GB/s. Certainly the single pool of GDDR5 in PS4 is the better option in terms of bandwidth (more so than 168GB/s vs 172GB/s would suggest), but its nowhere near as superior as it seems if you just ignore the embedded memory in XBox3 and compare only main RAM. GDDR5 + high bandwidth embedded memory would be massive overkill!
Click to expand...


can not be repeated enough amid the drowning wails of 8GB GDDR5 as if Durango won't have all the same exact games and that they will be hardly discernible in difference to the naked eye.

Just like this gen where everyone touted CELL PROCESSOR!!! and then the games looked the same and most multiplats ran better on 360.


not to mention that we do not have final specs for either system yet
 
Klocker said:
can not be repeated enough amid the drowning wails of 8GB GDDR5 as if Durango won't have all the same exact games and that they will be hardly discernible in difference to the naked eye.

Just like this gen where everyone touted CELL PROCESSOR!!! and then the games looked the same and most multiplats ran better on 360.


not to mention that we do not have final specs for either system yet
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Basically this. PS4 games might look a little better due to more GPU power, but overall anything you see on one console, the other will be able to pull it off.
 
Oemenia said:
Didnt we say it was too late for Sony to double their RAM, who knows how old thsoe leaked specs are.

Also isnt DDR3 faster than GDDR3, or am I getting them wrong way round.
Click to expand...

GDDR3 is twice the bandwidth as DDR3 (for the same clock speed).
 
Donnie said:
Its DDR3 not GDDR3 and there's no reason for MS to change it. They have 8GB DDR3 (68GB/s) + 32MB low latency embedded memory (100GB/s) for a total memory bandwidth of 168GB/s. Certainly the single pool of GDDR5 in PS4 is the better option in terms of bandwidth (more so than 168GB/s vs 172GB/s would suggest), but its nowhere near as superior as it seems if you just ignore the embedded memory in XBox3 and compare only main RAM. GDDR5 + high bandwidth embedded memory would be massive overkill!
Click to expand...

If you are assuming they are using real eSRAM, you might be disappointed. Most people are assuming 1T-SRAM which is a form of DRAM, which has much worse latencies. If they are using real eSRAM, then their SOC is going to be huge and expensive.
 
AgentP said:
If you are assuming they are using real eSRAM, you might be disappointed. Most people are assuming 1T-SRAM which is a form of DRAM, which has much worse latencies. If they are using real eSRAM, then their SOC is going to be huge and expensive.
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The rumor states eSRAM, unless otherwise stated, that is what it is. The leaked doc even mention its lower latency as a reason for its use so I don't know what you are on about.
 
Spongebob said:
Going from 8GB DDR3 to 8 GB GDDR5 would add too much to their BOM which might already be high because of Kinect 2.0.

It's not happening.

MS simply doesn't need GDDR5 to capture the casual audience.
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Yup.

HyperionX said:
Basically this. PS4 games might look a little better due to more GPU power, but overall anything you see on one console, the other will be able to pull it off.
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Not a comparable situation at all. The PS3 has major bottlenecks that the 360 was able to capitalize on to reach a parity with the system
 
kmag said:
The ram isn't really that much of an issue. They can't put GDDR5 in at the last minute, nor can they increase the pool of ESRAM. They might be able to clock the GPU and/or CPU a bit higher and maybe increase the amount of ram.

Sony's move to 8gb GDDR5 isn't so much a vast benefit for the capabilities of the Sony machine (at 1080 3.5gb of GDDR5 was probably more than enough for what the GPU is capable of) it's more Sony removing the one positive differentiator spec wise that MS had.
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Exactly! It wasn't done to blow Durango away, rather for the sake of not losing to MS in terms of services and additional ease of developement...
 
I'd say they can, it may cost them a lot of money to do so but it's not like they don't have it.

They changed thier plans last time if I recall, Epic advised they upgrade thier Ram.
 
The Crusty Juggler said:
I'd say they can, it may cost them a lot of money to do so but it's not like they don't have it.

They changed thier plans last time if I recall, Epic advised they upgrade thier Ram.
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They would have to change everything to accommodate a GDRR5 chipset. I'm not saying its impossible but highly unlikely. Also MS doesn't really need to do this at all.
 
I don't think they'll have to do anything really. The games will look just as good as the PS4. The only flip side is PS4 might be the lead console for 3rd parties and may have some advantages.

Just look at the PS3/360. PS3 has more raw power but for the most part 360 had better looking 3rd party games. Sony didn't want to make the same mistake again.

The big worry is the 3GB for the OS rumor. If that's true than i assume the advantages would be much larger?
 
Why exactly do MS need to change? Their box will be cheaper to build, they're going to have all the multiplats regardless, they have a solution to deal with those situations where they really need fast RAM, so I'm not sure why they'd want to change.
 
Donnie said:
Its DDR3 not GDDR3 and there's no reason for MS to change it. They have 8GB DDR3 (68GB/s) + 32MB low latency embedded memory (100GB/s) for a total memory bandwidth of 168GB/s. Certainly the single pool of GDDR5 in PS4 is the better option in terms of bandwidth (more so than 168GB/s vs 172GB/s would suggest), but its nowhere near as superior as it seems if you just ignore the embedded memory in XBox3 and compare only main RAM. GDDR5 + high bandwidth embedded memory would be massive overkill!
Click to expand...

Adding bandwidth like that reminds me of those kids adding the speeds of multicore CPU's. 4x2,6Ghx=10,4GHZ POWER!!1!

It doesn't work like that. But I guess you only wanted to simplify.

That guy saying that Durango will be barely more powerful than WiiU, just because they both have DDR3, made my day.
 
Enhanced said:
Why exactly do MS need to change? Their box will be cheaper to build, they're going to have all the multiplats regardless, they have a solution to deal with those situations where they really need fast RAM, so I'm not sure why they'd want to change.
Click to expand...

They don't need to match Sony on anything. MS has their own plans for Next Gen and none of it has anything to do with Sony.
 
kmag said:
The ram isn't really that much of an issue. They can't put GDDR5 in at the last minute, nor can they increase the pool of ESRAM. They might be able to clock the GPU and/or CPU a bit higher and maybe increase the amount of ram.

Sony's move to 8gb GDDR5 isn't so much a vast benefit for the capabilities of the Sony machine (at 1080 3.5gb of GDDR5 was probably more than enough for what the GPU is capable of) it's more Sony removing the one positive differentiator spec wise that MS had.
Click to expand...

You don't double your ram just to increase your BOM with no significant benefit, so I doubt Sony would have gone for 8gb GDDR5 without reasonable certainty that this can produce some sort of win for them in terms of an edge in development, the problem for MS is that it's late enough in the game that if they decide to counter, it might potentially derail their gameplan.

Right now MS simply does not have a year headstart both in terms of getting the install base or time to get the costs down, sure they can eat costs right now to undercut but it would likely be quite significant. They're fighting a battle that really isn't the one most important to them, which is the whole mobile OS space eroding their bread-and-butter profit driver which is desktop OS, the kinect/wii battle for the casual will likely be the bigger concern for them, but it's not going to be easy to fight on two fronts.
 
big_z said:
The durango specs haven't changed since Feb 2012. It's possible microsoft could be using those specs as a baseline minimum for developers to work on and now with the extra year+ the end machine could end up being more powerful. It's also a good strategy to keep copycat companies like sony from ripping them off and outdoing them. Will this happen? Who knows, i guess well find out whenever microsoft hold their "meeting".
Click to expand...
Wow, they haven't been updated for a year now? I think it's pretty safe to say that something will have changed by now. No way it's exactly in the same form it was a year ago.

Coolwhip said:
MS would be crazy if they did. They should make Xbox the cheaper console, focused on being an entertainment center for casuals. Developers HAVE to release their games on both PS and Xbox so games will be developed with the worst console in mind. The lower price would allow for mass market appeal.
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Lowering the price is not a magical solution. You make your console for the long run, and that's been clear for a long time.

Being cheaper helps you make the initial splash, but everything changes from then on. Makes more sense to charge as much as you can to early adopters, sell folks on the idea and how revolutionary the technology is, and then make them yearn for price drops to allow the device to have a life beyond launch.
 
madmackem said:
So we dont know the specs but they will look the same?. Some strange logic by some.
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The logic is "Absent a moneyhat, AAA game development is too expensive for them to put resources into developing stuff specifically for one performance-outlier platform."

The games will be similar enough. One platform might feature more intense particle effects or better anti-aliasing, but the experience will be functionally the same.
 
BruceLeeRoy said:
They don't need to match Sony on anything. MS has their own plans for Next Gen and none of it has anything to do with Sony.
Click to expand...
exactly what I keep saying. For their agenda, they couldn't care less about matching specs.

If they were to match it their price would be higher than Sony because they're also bundling in kinect.
 
ProfessorMoran said:
You don't double your ram just to increase your BOM with no significant benefit, so I doubt Sony would have gone for 8gb GDDR5 without reasonable certainty that this can produce some sort of win for them in terms of an edge in development, the problem for MS is that it's late enough in the game that if they decide to counter, it might potentially derail their gameplan.
Click to expand...

Hey, remember how Sony announced that they're basically including their own version of Kinect with the PS4? Maybe they doubled the RAM because they needed it to run that without intruding on the 4GB they'd already promised to developers.
 
I wonder if Sony was smart enough to realize that "8GB GDDR5!" is so catchy that any board-dwelling gamefan with no idea how hardware works would be able to talk about how amazing it is and how it ensures their victory in the next generation.

It's entirely possible I'll wind up with only a PS4 next gen, at least until some serious price drops, but to me this seems like brilliant marketing. I guess we're also talking about an extremely small subset of gamers who would even bother to care about this, so they probably didn't really think about it from a marketing perspective.
 
Kagari said:
I know you like Japanese games. And I'll tell you right now MS is not going after Japan again.
Click to expand...

Am I making a mistake believing that in the next-gen we will see a great comeback of the japanese devs?

I think they suffered a lot the "hd" generation jump for variuos reasons, but they are ready now.
Finally one may add :P
 
I'd give MS the same chance as Sony or Nintendo. Clearly even our best local sources were clueless about both consoles doubling their rumored RAM capacity at the last minute. It would be strange if MS was locked into specs well over a year old without reacting to market forces, new technologies, or price drops.
 
zomgbbqftw said:
Switching over to 8GB GDDR5 will cause a delay for MS as Sony may have secured 100% supply of 4Gb chips (they are going to need as many as they can get) and since only Hynix manufacture them MS will find it tough to get enough volume to have a significant 2013 launch, even if they go US only for release.

They could opt for 16GB DDR3, but it would mean 32x 4Gb chips which is no easy task and it would add a significant amount to their mainboard complexity and BoM.

Sony seem to have been very lucky, from 2010 when PS4 development started to now GDDR5 chips have gone from 1Gb (2010) -> 2Gb (2011) -> 4Gb (2013) and holding steady at 16 chips has allowed them to go from 2GB -> 4GB -> 8GB without an increase in motherboard complexity. If MS can find a supplier for 8Gb DDR3 ram chips then it is possible, but right now 8Gb DDR3 uses all kinds of esoteric 3D stacking tech which is unproven and expensive. I think Samsung are currently selling 8Gb DDR4 but it won't be ready for consumer grade products (cheap) until 2014.
Click to expand...

So what you're saying is it is very unlikely for MS to be able to match Sony's memory bandwidth, meaning as far as multiplats go Sony is very likely to have the superior console for the next generation.

Now that is very interesting information. Guess I'll be going with a PS4 then unless MS manages to pull something out of its sleeve.
 
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